Help ID Angelfish disease

[Capien]

Hi,

I have 3 approximately 6 month old angelfish of which one has developed
small holes in its fins right at the base where they join with the
body. The two holes on the bottom fin showed up 3 days ago 4/25, the
one on the top sometime in the last 9 hours while I was working. The
large splotch in the middle I'm not sure if it's related or not but
it's growing larger.

The fish is languid without much appetite but still eats a little
thankfully.

I have a picture at
http://www.archeus.org/images/hurtfish.jpg

My tank is a 45 gallon tall, canister filter with activated carbon
(Ehiem).
Ph 6.8
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm

I change about 5% of water twice a week, I changed about 15% of water
last night as I moved water to a 10 gallon tank to prep it to put the
injured fish in soon as the other angelfish are starting to pick at it.

I feed them mainly flake food by tetra, but supplement it with some red
wriggler worms I grow in a worm farm that's fed non-meat table scraps.
Each angelfish has been eating about 2 worms per week, 1 per session
and pretty small worms at that what they can eat in one bite.

Also I put in a romaine lettuce leaf about 3 times a week which they
eat up in a few hours.

The only other occupants of this tank are 4 young <1 inch pictus
catfish.

Maybe related but don't know, right now I have serious green tank
syndrome but haven't taken any chemical steps (just scrub tank glass
with cloth to clean) to attempt to correct it because I noticed this
disease.

I'd appreciate it if anybody has an idea on what disease is afflicting
that angelfish and steps to correct it.

[Jim Anderson]

In article . com>,
Capien says...

> Hi,
>
> I have 3 approximately 6 month old angelfish of which one has developed
> small holes in its fins right at the base where they join with the
> body. The two holes on the bottom fin showed up 3 days ago 4/25, the
> one on the top sometime in the last 9 hours while I was working. The
> large splotch in the middle I'm not sure if it's related or not but
> it's growing larger.
>
> The fish is languid without much appetite but still eats a little
> thankfully.
>
> I have a picture at
> http://www.archeus.org/images/hurtfish.jpg
>
> My tank is a 45 gallon tall, canister filter with activated carbon
> (Ehiem).
> Ph 6.8
> Ammonia 0ppm
> Nitrite 0ppm
>
> I change about 5% of water twice a week, I changed about 15% of water
> last night as I moved water to a 10 gallon tank to prep it to put the
> injured fish in soon as the other angelfish are starting to pick at it.
>
> I feed them mainly flake food by tetra, but supplement it with some red
> wriggler worms I grow in a worm farm that's fed non-meat table scraps.
> Each angelfish has been eating about 2 worms per week, 1 per session
> and pretty small worms at that what they can eat in one bite.
>
> Also I put in a romaine lettuce leaf about 3 times a week which they
> eat up in a few hours.
>
> The only other occupants of this tank are 4 young <1 inch pictus
> catfish.
>
> Maybe related but don't know, right now I have serious green tank
> syndrome but haven't taken any chemical steps (just scrub tank glass
> with cloth to clean) to attempt to correct it because I noticed this
> disease.
>
> I'd appreciate it if anybody has an idea on what disease is afflicting
> that angelfish and steps to correct it.
>
>

Just my opinion - the hump in the forhead suggests this is a young male.
some AF will mature and start mating at around 6 months. The other 2
have paired and are trying to drive this male out of the proposed mating
site. All of the injury areas appear to be fish bites. If I'm right, the
pair will kill him in about 3 days to a week, then start mating.

--
Jim Anderson
( 8(|) To eMail me, just pull "my_finger"

[Altum]

Jim Anderson wrote:
> In article . com>,

> Just my opinion - the hump in the forhead suggests this is a young male.
> some AF will mature and start mating at around 6 months. The other 2
> have paired and are trying to drive this male out of the proposed mating
> site. All of the injury areas appear to be fish bites. If I'm right, the
> pair will kill him in about 3 days to a week, then start mating.

No, they're not fish bites. That is a fast-moving skin infection. I
didn't reply earlier because I'm not sure what it is and was hoping
Frank would chime in. I could be wrong, but I think it's Costia. The
other possibility is a bacterial infection, but I don't see any
reddening or inflammation in your picture.

If Frank or NetMax also think it's Costia, treat your fish with a
formalin/malachite green ich medicine and watch the other angels
carefully. If you're not sure, use something a bit more broad-spectrum
like acriflavine or eSha 2000 if you're in Europe.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Frank]

Capien wrote,
>small holes in its fins right at the base where they join with the
>body. The two holes on the bottom fin showed up 3 days ago 4/25, the
>one on the top sometime in the last 9 hours while I was working. The
>large splotch in the middle I'm not sure if it's related or not but
>it's growing larger.......

Almost looks like a bacteria virus called Lymphocystis - if so, a
tablespoon of salt per 5 gals. should make it disappear in a week...
Otherwise looks to be a bacterial fungus, treated with an anti-fungus
and antibiotic. Tetra makes (or made) a medicated food called
Metronidazole that would work great, otherwise try treating with
Hex-A-mit...

>I change about 5% of water twice a week.....

Most likely what has brought on this infection. Uneaten foods and fish
waste decompose and produce organic and inorganic compounds. What solid
waste that is picked up by your canister filter is traped within the
filters media, only to be dissolved as the water flow passes by. The
dissolved pollutants are then pumped back into the tank as DOCs
(dissolved organic compounds) which slowly accumulate. For an average
pollutant load, a weekly 20% water change leaves about 30 days of
accumulated DOC pollutants in the tank. That's the trouble with todays
power filters/filter media, they keep water clear, even when they start
to become polluted. Clear water does not necessary mean that the water
is good! High levels of DOC pollutants create conditions that encourage
disease, parasites, and opportunistic bacteria. If your tank isn't a
planted tank, you should be doing at least two 20% weekly water changes
with gravel vacs. With a well planted tank, you *might* get away with
only one 20% weekly water change. Any less than that, your water
quality deteriorates a little more with each passing week...

>supplement it with some red
>wriggler worms ...........
>Each angelfish has been eating about 2 worms per week....

As angelfish age, hole-in-the-head (HITH) disease becomes common and is
beleaved to be due to poor water quality and a mineral/vitamin 'D'
imbalance. Red earthworms have high levels of vitamin 'D' - feeding
them twice a week is great, but feed them as much as they can eat per
feeding........... Frank

[Capien]

Thanks for those diagnosis/suggestions.

While carefully inspecting the other two anglefish I noticed the
smallest (female?) has some slight red puffyness around her gills.

To try and cover all the bases yall mentioned I moved approx. 10
gallons of water out of the main tank into a empty 10 gallon hospital
tank (figured less stress than all fresh water). Setup empty small
whisper filter for some small airflow. I put in some large plastic
plants from the main tank and left them floating for some cover. And
medicated it with Maracyn-Two by Mardel. I couldn't find the other
suggested medications at my local petsmart and tommorow I'll range
further and look for them.

I moved the two sick anglefish, and left the largest and most aggresive
one in the main tank who looks healthy. That should have the effect of
breaking up the two possible males. I prepared a batch of new water
and put it back in the main tank to replace what I took out for the
hospital tank so it effectivly got a 20ish% water change.

I typically add about half a tablespoon of Jungle brand aquarium salt
at water changes. I didn't put a new dose in the hospital tank at the
rate Frank suggest as I didn't know if there would be conflicts between
the salt and the medication, is that a real concern or should I add the
salt as well?

My main tank isn't planted, I'll up the water changes signifigantly as
suggested from now on. That should help the green tank too I'd
imagine.

Any other suggestions or ideas I'm all ears. Thanks for the help so
far and I'll post some pics later as the treatment continues. I tried
to get some of my hospital tank but they are all fuzzy and can't see
much I'll try again in the morning.

[Frank]

Capien wrote,
>has some slight red puffyness around her gills...

Like Altum, I didn't see any redness in your photo, so ruled out Costia
right off the bat. Now that you are seeing redness, I would have to
agree with Altum as it may very well be Costia. With Costia, the
redness is blood spots under the scales. The red areas tend to start at
the base of the pectoral fins and gill areas. Costia is a parasite
infection and like Altum said, is treated with an anti-parasite
medication such as QuickCure or Rid-Ich...

>I typically add about half a tablespoon of Jungle brand aquarium salt
>at water changes. I didn't put a new dose in the hospital tank at the
>rate Frank suggest as I didn't know if there would be conflicts between
>the salt and the medication, is that a real concern or should I add the
>salt as well? ....

A tonic level of salt (1 tablespoon per 5 gals.) along with the
medication treatments won't hurt a thing as for as the fish go. If it
is a Lymphocystis virus, salt is needed. With Lymphocystis, the patches
would be greasy looking (shiny) buff to white in color. Most of the
time these patches show up on the fins and tail first, and cause no
redness at all...

>I'll up the water changes signifigantly as
>suggested from now on. That should help the green
> tank too I'd imagine....

No, green water is an algae bloom - your looking at the algae spores.
Water changes don't help, and many times even make the algae bloom even
worse because of the silicic acid, phospate and nitrAte in the tap
water. Algae blooms are caused by excess nutrients (DOCs) and to much
light or direct sunlight. The spores can be filtered out with eather a
diatom filter or a micron cartridge. An ultraviolet sterilizer will
kill the spores as would a product called Acurel. You may be able to
find Acurel at a garden supply as it is used in outdoor ponds
also................. Frank

[Mister Gardener]

On 28 Apr 2006 21:15:57 -0700, "Capien" > wrote:

>Thanks for those diagnosis/suggestions.
>
>While carefully inspecting the other two anglefish I noticed the
>smallest (female?) has some slight red puffyness around her gills.
>
>To try and cover all the bases yall mentioned I moved approx. 10
>gallons of water out of the main tank into a empty 10 gallon hospital
>tank (figured less stress than all fresh water). Setup empty small
>whisper filter for some small airflow. I put in some large plastic
>plants from the main tank and left them floating for some cover. And
>medicated it with Maracyn-Two by Mardel. I couldn't find the other
>suggested medications at my local petsmart and tommorow I'll range
>further and look for them.
>
>I moved the two sick anglefish, and left the largest and most aggresive
>one in the main tank who looks healthy. That should have the effect of
>breaking up the two possible males. I prepared a batch of new water
>and put it back in the main tank to replace what I took out for the
>hospital tank so it effectivly got a 20ish% water change.
>
>I typically add about half a tablespoon of Jungle brand aquarium salt
>at water changes. I didn't put a new dose in the hospital tank at the
>rate Frank suggest as I didn't know if there would be conflicts between
>the salt and the medication, is that a real concern or should I add the
>salt as well?
>
>My main tank isn't planted, I'll up the water changes signifigantly as
>suggested from now on. That should help the green tank too I'd
>imagine.
>
>Any other suggestions or ideas I'm all ears. Thanks for the help so
>far and I'll post some pics later as the treatment continues. I tried
>to get some of my hospital tank but they are all fuzzy and can't see
>much I'll try again in the morning.

Glad you got some good answers. Keep up with the posting of pictures,
they really complement the messages. I'm following your progress
closely.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Capien]

Well the fish displayed in the picture died a few hours ago :(

Another of the three that I talked about with the red gills now has
some very small holes in the same places. I have tried taking pics but
none turn out well enough to see the injury/disease. Any ideas on how
to take good pictures? My first attempt I'm thinking was dumb luck.

The third anglefish seems healthy and happy and is still in the main
tank doing fine. He appears to be a different brood or subspecies?
than the other two. Black with no gold and his fins are much more full
veil and just overall growing faster than they did.

Continuing the medication and started the salt thearpy as well. The
other sick fish doesn't have much appitite but I'm pretty sure she ate
a little before I cleaned out the leftover flakes.

[Frank]

Capien wrote,
>Well the fish displayed in the picture died a few hours ago :(

That is a little to quick for it to be Costia - I would treat for a
bacterial infection with a broad spectrum antibiotic such as
oxy-tetracycline, erythromycin, or maracyn and feed a medicated food
twice a day for 10 days. I would also keep up the anti-parasite
medication as there may be a scondary infection of
parasites.............. Frank

[Capien]

Here is a new picture of the remaining sick fish. It's still not
perfectly clear but it's best I could get so far.

http://archeus.org/images/hurtfish2.jpg

Doing all the things you list, broad spec anti-biotic, anti-parasite,
and medicated anti-biotic food plus the salt treatment :) Hoping for
the best and I'll update with progress.

[Altum]

Capien wrote:
> Here is a new picture of the remaining sick fish. It's still not
> perfectly clear but it's best I could get so far.
>
> http://archeus.org/images/hurtfish2.jpg
>
> Doing all the things you list, broad spec anti-biotic, anti-parasite,
> and medicated anti-biotic food plus the salt treatment :) Hoping for
> the best and I'll update with progress.

Oh, bummer. That's one heck of an ulcer. I hope your fish makes it.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Tynk]

Capien wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have 3 approximately 6 month old angelfish of which one has developed
> small holes in its fins right at the base where they join with the
> body. The two holes on the bottom fin showed up 3 days ago 4/25, the
> one on the top sometime in the last 9 hours while I was working. The
> large splotch in the middle I'm not sure if it's related or not but
> it's growing larger.
>
> The fish is languid without much appetite but still eats a little
> thankfully.
>
> I have a picture at
> http://www.archeus.org/images/hurtfish.jpg
>
> My tank is a 45 gallon tall, canister filter with activated carbon
> (Ehiem).
> Ph 6.8
> Ammonia 0ppm
> Nitrite 0ppm
>
> I change about 5% of water twice a week, I changed about 15% of water
> last night as I moved water to a 10 gallon tank to prep it to put the
> injured fish in soon as the other angelfish are starting to pick at it.
>
> I feed them mainly flake food by tetra, but supplement it with some red
> wriggler worms I grow in a worm farm that's fed non-meat table scraps.
> Each angelfish has been eating about 2 worms per week, 1 per session
> and pretty small worms at that what they can eat in one bite.
>
> Also I put in a romaine lettuce leaf about 3 times a week which they
> eat up in a few hours.
>
> The only other occupants of this tank are 4 young <1 inch pictus
> catfish.
>
> Maybe related but don't know, right now I have serious green tank
> syndrome but haven't taken any chemical steps (just scrub tank glass
> with cloth to clean) to attempt to correct it because I noticed this
> disease.
>
> I'd appreciate it if anybody has an idea on what disease is afflicting
> that angelfish and steps to correct it.

Hi there.
I'm late getting back to the news group , but wanted to chime in.
With open lesions (ulcer) you also need to consider the possiblity of
TB.
Has the fish's lesion gotten any better with the meds?
Are there any other symptoms, not the same, and not on the same fish
too...on any tank mates, or even other tanks of fish in the same house?
Things like:
Wasting away
Sunken in belly
Bloated belly
Black spots that appear and then grow larger over time, or in numbers
(not the same as the normal, black dots that can be in the normal
coloring of particular strains of Angelfish).
Open lesions..this one is obvious on that Angel, but are there any more
developing on the same fish or another fish.
Loss of appetite
Clamped fins
Pop eye
Dark coloration and granular appearance of the cornea (this is the
first sign in Angelfish).
Bent spine..a spine that was not bent from a birth defect, but shows up
later.
Hanging at the surface
Skin defects, including blood spots
Fin rot, characterised by the outer rays falling out.
Scales loosening and falling out
General swelling and scale protrusion (as in Dropsy)
Now, the thing with TB is that it's actually pretty common. It's often
mistaken for a different illness because it mimics so many others.
The strangest thing is that not every fish in the same tank, with the
same disease will have the same sympotms.
Some may have more of the symptoms on their body, where another fish
may have one.
You may have ten fish, all with a different symptom on the list. Crazy,
I know.
That's why I always take a step back and take a good long look at every
fish, and any past illnesses in the tank that were recent, and see if
any were TB symptoms.
The last batch of Neons I bought I believe have TB.
I had one die because of a sunken in belly. He ate like a hog too!
Another developed a bent spine and soon died too.
Now another has a sunken in belly and a minimal bend to it's spine.
Now it's pretty obvious what I have going on in that tank.
They were quarantined in that same tank, so no other tanks were
contaminated as I use separate equipment for that tank.
I also sanatize my hands befoer going to another tank.
You can spread it very easily, and any fish in that tank is a carrier.
A fish doesn't have to have active TB (showing symptoms) to spread it.
A word of caution, it can go from fish to human. However, it's not the
same as normal human TB. It shows up as a rash that seems to not go
away.
I do know of one person who contacted it from an infected tank and had
a lot problems with it. She's from the AOL fish message boards and Oh
man, she had a lot of problems from it. I'll have to get back into
contact with her because I have forgotten all she's going through. Much
more than just a rash. Hardly anyone even gets a rash from having an
open cut on their hand in a tank with infected fish, and her situation
is even more rare, so don't freak out and put on a Hazmat suit to do a
water change. = )~
I'll be sure to post what she says after I get in contact with her. It
may be a bit, as she doesn't often visit the AOL boards much (Niether
do I).
I did want to mention the need to be cautious if you have a scratch,
open cuts, etc on your skin though.

[Koi-Lo]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I do know of one person who contacted it from an infected tank and had
> a lot problems with it. She's from the AOL fish message boards and Oh
> man, she had a lot of problems from it. ...........
=======
I know this may be a little off-topic but I thought I was going to lose a
dear friend about 15 year ago to cat-scratch fever. She became so ill she
was finally hospitalized. Another woman I knew in Nashville got a lung
disease (histoplasmosis) from birds....... we must remember that animals,
birds and fish can and do carry diseases that we can catch - and be careful.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>