White Spot - How long till cysts "hatch" ?

[Malcolm]

Hi,
Last Tues, 9 March, I noticed one of my angels had 6 tiny white spots,
typical 'grain of salt' ich type pin-heads.
I assumed it was ich and treated with KingBritish WS3 (malachite
green, acrraflavine, quinine sulphate) that afternoon and again at
48hr intervals as directed. Also I slowly raised the temp from 25C to
29C
However, it is now 1 week later (Tue. morning 16 March) and the spots
are still there :-( I had expected that the cysts would have "hatched"
by now to release the wee besties to be killed off outside the host.

Only one other fish, another angel that I had transfered to a second
tank on the Mon previous, has shown any infection (just two spots)
All other fish are OK.

What is going on ? Does it take longer than this to complete the cycle
or is it not ich after all ? What else might it be ??

[RedForeman ©®]

> Hi,
> Last Tues, 9 March, I noticed one of my angels had 6 tiny white spots,
> typical 'grain of salt' ich type pin-heads.
> I assumed it was ich and treated with KingBritish WS3 (malachite
> green, acrraflavine, quinine sulphate) that afternoon and again at
> 48hr intervals as directed. Also I slowly raised the temp from 25C to
> 29C
> However, it is now 1 week later (Tue. morning 16 March) and the spots
> are still there :-( I had expected that the cysts would have "hatched"
> by now to release the wee besties to be killed off outside the host.
>
> Only one other fish, another angel that I had transfered to a second
> tank on the Mon previous, has shown any infection (just two spots)
> All other fish are OK.
>
> What is going on ? Does it take longer than this to complete the cycle
> or is it not ich after all ? What else might it be ??

I think it's odd that you've only got one fish with 1 dot, and another with
only 2... If it were ich, *in my head* I'd think by 2 days later, you'd see
atleast 10-15 per fish... the grow quick IIRC....

Keep up your treatments, and keep us posted.

--
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streetfighter!!!

==========================
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[Malcolm]

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:16:31 -0500, "RedForeman ©®" and I wrote:

>> Hi,
>> Last Tues, 9 March, I noticed one of my angels had 6 tiny white spots,
>> typical 'grain of salt' ich type pin-heads.
>> I assumed it was ich and treated with KingBritish WS3 (malachite
>> green, acrraflavine, quinine sulphate) that afternoon and again at
>> 48hr intervals as directed. Also I slowly raised the temp from 25C to
>> 29C
>> However, it is now 1 week later (Tue. morning 16 March) and the spots
>> are still there :-( I had expected that the cysts would have "hatched"
>> by now to release the wee besties to be killed off outside the host.
>>
>> Only one other fish, another angel that I had transfered to a second
>> tank on the Mon previous, has shown any infection (just two spots)
>> All other fish are OK.
>>
>> What is going on ? Does it take longer than this to complete the cycle
>> or is it not ich after all ? What else might it be ??

>I think it's odd that you've only got one fish with 1 dot, and another with
>only 2... If it were ich, *in my head* I'd think by 2 days later, you'd see
>atleast 10-15 per fish... the grow quick IIRC....

Thanks for your thoughts Red,
I fish with 6dots, 4 on one side of its body and two on the other
side. The 2nd fish has 2 dots, one on its pectral and one on
its tail.

Yep, I think it is odd as well !
At first I thought that I had caught the symptoms early on the one
fish and that with the treatment I had killed off any free-swimers
before the other fish got infected (or they were hardier or not so
stressed or something)

But now I'm not sure what to think.
I have read lots of webpages about the free-smimming stage needing
to find a host fish within 48 hours or they die, but none of the pages
that I found told me how long the cyst stays embeded before bursting
/ hatching, all they say is that it is quicker if the temperature is
higher.

Neither fish seems bothered by it and it isnt getting worse, so I
suppose that is something to be pleased about !
Perhaps the cysts have released and completed their cycle and
that what I see now is a secondary infection at the damaged sites ??

>Keep up your treatments, and keep us posted.

Yes, I will.
cheers,
Malcolm.

[RedForeman ©®]

> Neither fish seems bothered by it and it isnt getting worse, so I
> suppose that is something to be pleased about !
> Perhaps the cysts have released and completed their cycle and
> that what I see now is a secondary infection at the damaged sites ??

This is encouraging, atleast it isn't getting worse, as it normally does...
The second time I caught my clowns with it, I caught sight of 2 spots on
their tails, and treated... the next morning, not 12 hours later, they were
nearly covered in them, 100+ spots... but after the second, full dose
treatment, that everyone said would kill them, they've never had it, nor had
anyone introduced w/o a stay in the Q tank first...

I'm betting you caught it early enough that it didn't spread as fast on a
scaled fish....

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).

[Malcolm]

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:16:31 -0500, "RedForeman ©®"
> wrote:
>
>Keep up your treatments, and keep us posted.

Treatments continue,, spots still present after 10 days :-(
Still no new spots which is a good thing.

Is there nobody on the group that has timed a whitespot spot ??

[Flash Wilson]

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:10:07 GMT, Malcolm > wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:16:31 -0500, "RedForeman ©®"
> wrote:
>>
>>Keep up your treatments, and keep us posted.
>
>Treatments continue,, spots still present after 10 days :-(
>Still no new spots which is a good thing.
>
>Is there nobody on the group that has timed a whitespot spot ??

Hi,

Glad there are no new spots - sorry your fish aren't better yet.
I can't remember, did you say you'd upped the temperature?
Also, salt is supposed to help - are the fish in that tank able
to handle salt, at least for a short time?

I'm afraid my white spot outbreaks cleared up in 7-10 days and
I can't remember an exact figure. I've only had them when putting
new and stressed fish into a tank, so it's not something I've seen
much of to be honest with you.

Good luck with it.
--
Flash Wilson Visit my website: http://www.gorge.org
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[Dick]

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:00:18 -0500, "RedForeman ©®"
> wrote:

>> Neither fish seems bothered by it and it isnt getting worse, so I
>> suppose that is something to be pleased about !
>> Perhaps the cysts have released and completed their cycle and
>> that what I see now is a secondary infection at the damaged sites ??
>
>This is encouraging, atleast it isn't getting worse, as it normally does...
>The second time I caught my clowns with it, I caught sight of 2 spots on
>their tails, and treated... the next morning, not 12 hours later, they were
>nearly covered in them, 100+ spots... but after the second, full dose
>treatment, that everyone said would kill them, they've never had it, nor had
>anyone introduced w/o a stay in the Q tank first...
>
>I'm betting you caught it early enough that it didn't spread as fast on a
>scaled fish....


Last year I received a shipment of 7 clowns, all with lots of dots. (I
buy all my fish over the internet so don't see them until delivered)

I tried to treat them in my 75 gallon tank as I had not other tank at
the time. Two responded well, but the other five were downhill from
the start. I noticed after the first week of treating them with
RidIch plus, that none of my other 60 fish of different species had
picked up the ich. I finally disposed of the 5 bad clowns. I kept
the two that now had only 2 or 3 spots on the belief that the general
tank health plus their obvious better health would result in the two
fully recovering. They did, the other fish in the tank never picked
up ich. That was over 10 months ago and the tank has never had a case
of ich sense.

The fish dealer sent me another 7 clowns. All were healthy.

I have read that all tanks have ich in their biology. When tanks get
out of balance and fish health deteriorates, the ich blossoms. Anyone
know if this is the case. My experience suggests it might be true.

[Malcolm]

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 Flash Wilson wrote:
> did you say you'd upped the temperature?

Yes, I slowly raised it to 30C, ( I read that this was supposed to
speed the cycle up ! )

>Also, salt is supposed to help - are the fish in that tank able
>to handle salt, at least for a short time?

It is a 5ft x 15 x 15 growing-on tank containing some of last years
spawnings of Beckford pencilfish, silver tip tetra, black neon and
two strains of guppies ( plus the angels, which are there mop-up
surplus fry from the guppies ! )
So they all should all tolerate salt ?
But the plants might not like the concentration of salt that might be
required to shift the whitespot, not sure about that. I might have to
move the plants to a holding tank and then do the high temperature
and/or salt method on the fish alone. ( I'll have to re-read up on
that method cos I didnt concentrate on it cos I thought that the
commercial cure would be sufficient )

>I'm afraid my white spot outbreaks cleared up in 7-10 days and
>I can't remember an exact figure. I've only had them when putting
>new and stressed fish into a tank, so it's not something I've seen
>much of to be honest with you.

Yes, me also.
The only new thing introduced to the tank was frozen bloodworm
from a new blister pack, I've not had trouble with that in the past
but it makes one wonder ????
I think it is 20+ years since my last attack of whitespot and I dont
remember it taking this long to cure :-(

I've just noticed that there is a phone number on the bottle
for advice from the manufacturer, so I'll give them a call on
Monday and see if they have any ideas.

thanks for your thoughts,
Malcolm.

[Flash Wilson]

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 13:29:53 GMT, Malcolm > wrote:
>> did you say you'd upped the temperature?
>
>Yes, I slowly raised it to 30C, ( I read that this was supposed to
>speed the cycle up ! )

Hmmm.

>>Also, salt is supposed to help - are the fish in that tank able
>>to handle salt, at least for a short time?
>
>It is a 5ft x 15 x 15 growing-on tank containing some of last years
>spawnings of Beckford pencilfish, silver tip tetra, black neon and
>two strains of guppies ( plus the angels, which are there mop-up
>surplus fry from the guppies ! )
>So they all should all tolerate salt ?
>But the plants might not like the concentration of salt that might be
>required to shift the whitespot, not sure about that. I might have to
>move the plants to a holding tank and then do the high temperature
>and/or salt method on the fish alone. ( I'll have to re-read up on
> that method cos I didnt concentrate on it cos I thought that the
>commercial cure would be sufficient )

Might be worth a try. I don't think tetras really like salt. But
to be honest if you're having a serious outbreak and really not
shifting it, you might want to risk it (upping salt level slowly
and reducing it with large water changes when all is well - being
cautious as you go of course!)

Just a thought, you've been treating the fish for ages but see
no improvement... you did remember to remove carbon from the filter
first, didn't you? Just that it's the sort of thing I might forget
so not such a silly question ;)

>The only new thing introduced to the tank was frozen bloodworm
>from a new blister pack, I've not had trouble with that in the past
>but it makes one wonder ????

I've never had a problem with that, I think it's all UV treated
anyway.

>I think it is 20+ years since my last attack of whitespot and I dont
>remember it taking this long to cure :-(

I don't think it should... Is there any reason why the fish might
be stressed and so more susceptible to it right now; have you
tested the water thoroughly or changed the routine? (If you
mentioned this originally, sorry, I can't see the original mail
so I hope this isn't going over old ground!)

>I've just noticed that there is a phone number on the bottle
>for advice from the manufacturer, so I'll give them a call on
>Monday and see if they have any ideas.

Good luck with that.

Do report back!


--
Flash Wilson
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[Malcolm]

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 Flash Wilson wrote:
>no improvement... you did remember to remove carbon from the filter
>first, didn't you? Just that it's the sort of thing I might forget
>so not such a silly question ;)

Yep, good question :-)
no carbon, I never use it.

>I don't think it should... Is there any reason why the fish might
>be stressed and so more susceptible to it right now;

Another good question and thereby hangs a tale with a happy ending
are we sitting comfortably :-?) :--
There were originally 3 angels (call them #1, #2 and #3), plus
1 Bolivian ram in the tank. (together with all the other tetras etc.
that I already described )
The ram was a bully and was terrorising the angels ( but ignoring
the tetras etc.) getting real bad by Mon 8 March,
Also #1 and #2 were showing off to each other, inspecting and
'pecking' at various places and pushing at leaves and were starting
to terrorise #3. Looked like pairing up. So there was generally a bit
of stress all round.
Something had to be done !
The ram was given to the LFS and #3 was moved to another 5ft tank.
Harmony was thus restored, #1 and #2 went peacefully about their
inspections.
However, next dayTues 9 March, #1 was lurking in corners and not
looking atall happy, but would come out for food. #2 was OK but
was standing guard over #1 ( well it looked that way ! )

Close inspection revealed 4 white spots on one side and 2 on the
other side of #1's body.
Classical tiny white pinheads of whitespot, I thought, so I dosed the
tank with WS3 cure from KingBritish.
There was nothing on any of the other fish and not on the stressed
#3 now in the other tank.
A swift visit to the LFS ( with sackcloth & ashes ready in the
hand-luggage !! ) but nothing evident on the ram either although it
was looking a bit stressed as it was now at the bottom of the pecking
order in a tank of Jewel and other cichlids !

However, two days later there were 2 spots on the #3 angel, one on
pectoral and one on tail fins. Ooops, thinks, better dose that tank
as well !
Since then, no extra spots on any fish, and thankfully the ram in the
LFS is still OK ( phew ! That would have been really embarrasing !! )

Time went by but the original spots did not go away,,, so that is when
I yelped for info on the group about how long it should take whitespot
cysts to 'hatch' and drop off.

The good news is :-
As time went by #1 gradually came out of hiding and began to
resume courtship rituals with #2
____ Culminating last night in the laying of eggs !!! _____
So I now know that #1 is a male and #2 is a female and that whatever
these spots are they dont seem to have bothered #1 very much :-))
The bad news is that they ate the eggs a few minutes later
Well actually it isnt really bad news because I have nowhere (yet !)
to raise any angel fry.
About 1/2 hr later they laid some more and promptly ate them as well.
Thinks,,, where can I put yet another tank ! ,,,, :-))))

>mentioned this originally, sorry, I can't see the original mail
>so I hope this isn't going over old ground!)

No, no old ground, your comments are most welcome.
Lets see if I can make a link to the orig. in the Google archive -

http://tinyurl.com/2ofsp
or
http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&frame=right&th=b551fb37051f242b&seekm=slrnc5mjm2.2knu.flash%40localhost.gorge.org# link1


Malcolm.

[Flash Wilson]

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 19:44:46 GMT, Malcolm > wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 Flash Wilson wrote:
>>no improvement... you did remember to remove carbon from the filter
>>first, didn't you? Just that it's the sort of thing I might forget
>>so not such a silly question ;)
>
>Yep, good question :-)
>no carbon, I never use it.

Okey doke :)

>>I don't think it should... Is there any reason why the fish might
>>be stressed and so more susceptible to it right now;
>
>Another good question and thereby hangs a tale with a happy ending
> are we sitting comfortably :-?) :--

<snip>

Ok, so we know why they might have been susceptible and that's
been fixed...

>Lets see if I can make a link to the orig. in the Google archive -
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2ofsp

Gottit. *reads* Hmmm. I've never had a problem with King British
WS3, that's what I've used before. Is it an old and out of date
bottle, perhaps? (Clutching at straws a bit here I admit!)

So it's been ongoing for two weeks and no change... I'm running
out of ideas. There aren't really many different treatments are
there, all seem to have the same ingredients, so not much use
suggesting you try another one...

I'm sure you know what white spot looks like, so doubting the
original diagnosis is fairly pointless... and I'm not sure
what else it could be that sounds as you've described!

I'm really stumped on this one, all I can suggest is you hang
in there and at least it's not getting any worse.

And next time I get an outbreak of white spot, whenever that
is, I'll time how long it takes to get better.

--
Flash Wilson

[Malcolm]

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 Flash wrote:
>Gottit. *reads* Hmmm. I've never had a problem with King British
>WS3, that's what I've used before.

Yes, I have never heard of any probs with it and it has been around
for years and ( just to make sure of no misunderstanding amongst
our readers ! ) I meant no crit. by mentioning the brand name + its
ingredients, I only did it for clarity (in an international forum)
so that we would all know what type/chemistry of stuff we were
talking about !

> Is it an old and out of date bottle, perhaps? (Clutching at straws a bit

No date on the bottle :-( ,, which suggests that it ought not to be
time sensitive ( else the EU would probably have got in on the
act ?!! )
but swimming along on your reasonable straw, I dont know if it is
sensitive. Malachite green I think is probably not very time/storage
sensitive. The acraflavine ( antibiotic?) is possibly sensitive to
storage conditions. I have no idea what the quinine sulfate is there
for ( not to cure malaria I wouldnt have thought :-)) ! )
Moves are afoot to obtain my own (solid) malachite green and also
some formalin/formaldyhide as insurance against future happenings
of this kind.

>I'm sure you know what white spot looks like,

Well I thought I did !! and if it had not been for the #3 angel
getting spots later I would by now have been doubting my sanity !

>I'm really stumped on this one,

Me too, and presumably also the silent majority !
I've decided that since it is not getting worse I shall not panic any
more :-) I'll give a few more regular doses and then stop, give a
water change (or two), and sit back and watch carefully.
It is possible that what I see now is just damage to the angel from
where the cysts were, iyswim.
So if you all dont hear from me again then all is OK :-)

>And next time I get an outbreak of white spot, whenever that
>is, I'll time how long it takes to get better.

Thanks, but I wont wish an outbreak upon you, not even for the
sake of science :-))))

Thanks again for your thoughts,
Malcolm.

[Malcolm]

Update:
And the good news is, day 17 and all spots except one have
have gone, and that remaining one (an original one) is very
much smaller than it was.
So fingers xxed ,,,,

I am amazed that it took this long though !

Malcolm.