Neon Tetra's Disease

[-ED]

I've read alittle about this problem with the neons...I was curious if
cardinal share this malady as well? Thanks all.....-ED

[Altum]

-ED wrote:
> I've read alittle about this problem with the neons...I was curious if
> cardinal share this malady as well? Thanks all.....-ED
>

Yes. It can infect many fish. Below is the entry on NTD (Plistophora
hyphessobryconis) from a research article. Cheirodon axelrodi Schultz
is an older scientific name for the cardinal tetra. The whole paragraph
is a bit of a Latin workout. ;-)

"P. hyphessobryconis Schäperclaus, 1941; Paracheirodon inessi (Myers)
and Hemigrammus erythrozonus Durbin were the original hosts; also found
in Hemmigrammus ocellifer (Steindachner), Danio rerio
(Hamilton-Buchanan) (Opitz 1942), Hyphessobrycon flammeus (Meyers) (see
Stefens, 1956), H. callistus callistus Boulenger, Cheirodon axelorodi
Schultz, Hasemania nana (Reinhardt), Barbus lineatus Duncker,
Brachydanio nigrofasciatus (Day), Opisthogramma seitzigi (see Steffens,
1962), Hemigrammus pulcher Ladiges, Hyphessobrycon rosaceus Durbin,
Xiphophorus helleri Heckel (see van Duijn, 1956), Hyphessobrycon
heterorhabdus Ulrey (see Sterba, 1956), Carassius auratus auratus L.
(see Canning & Lom, 1986), C. auratus gibelio Bloch and Phoxinus
phoxinus (L.) (see Richert 1958); skeletal muscles, in heavy infections
other organs and tissues. (W, common)."

From: JiÅ™Ã* Lom, A catalogue of described genera and species of
microsporidians parasitic in fish, Systematic Parasitology, Volume 53,
Issue 2, Oct 2002, Pages 81 - 99.

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[Mister Gardener]

On Tue, 02 May 2006 18:49:04 GMT, Altum >
wrote:
The whole paragraph
>is a bit of a Latin workout. ;-)
>
>"P. hyphessobryconis Schäperclaus, 1941; Paracheirodon inessi (Myers)
>and Hemigrammus erythrozonus Durbin were the original hosts; also found
>in Hemmigrammus ocellifer (Steindachner), Danio rerio
>(Hamilton-Buchanan) (Opitz 1942), Hyphessobrycon flammeus (Meyers) (see
>Stefens, 1956), H. callistus callistus Boulenger, Cheirodon axelorodi
>Schultz, Hasemania nana (Reinhardt), Barbus lineatus Duncker,
>Brachydanio nigrofasciatus (Day), Opisthogramma seitzigi (see Steffens,
>1962), Hemigrammus pulcher Ladiges, Hyphessobrycon rosaceus Durbin,
>Xiphophorus helleri Heckel (see van Duijn, 1956), Hyphessobrycon
>heterorhabdus Ulrey (see Sterba, 1956), Carassius auratus auratus L.
>(see Canning & Lom, 1986), C. auratus gibelio Bloch and Phoxinus
>phoxinus (L.) (see Richert 1958); skeletal muscles, in heavy infections
>other organs and tissues. (W, common)."

Betcha can't say that 3 times in a row fast. Or slow!

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Frank]

-ED wrote:
> I've read alittle about this problem with the neons...I was curious if
> cardinal share this malady as well? .........

I guess it depends on where or what you read. Take a look here
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/neondisease.htm and a few
others that say the same. I have to agree, in the years I was into the
pet shops, we had neon tetra disease (NTD) wipe out whole shipments of
neons, and spread to other tanks of fish, mainly tetras, but never
spread to the cardinal. ............... Frank

[Altum]

Frank wrote:
> -ED wrote:
>> I've read alittle about this problem with the neons...I was curious if
>> cardinal share this malady as well? .........
>
> I guess it depends on where or what you read. Take a look here
> http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/neondisease.htm and a few
> others that say the same. I have to agree, in the years I was into the
> pet shops, we had neon tetra disease (NTD) wipe out whole shipments of
> neons, and spread to other tanks of fish, mainly tetras, but never
> spread to the cardinal. ............... Frank

There's a REASON I went to the scientific literature. There is no peer
review process on sites like About.com. The "expert" there can publish
any information and/or misinformation they choose. As long as there are
plenty of hits so the ads pay, About.com doesn't care much about
content. Notice the complete and total lack of references to any fish
disease papers or books on that page. It also incorrectly states that
angels can get NTD.

I got curious about NTD and cardinals when I gradually lost a shoal of
them earlier this year to a disease that caused white patches and
whirling. It started when I bought a few newly imported fish. Internet
sites said all sorts of ridiculous stuff and none of them agreed so I
did some careful research in the scientific literature. I learned that
many fish can get some sort of microsporidian infection and that there
are dozens of species of microsporidia. Some are rarer than others. I
also found that article I posted when Gill had the sick neons showing
very clearly that Flavobacterium can mimic NTD in cardinals and neons.

Back to the original question, according to experts with microscopes
neons and cardinals can both be infected with Pleistophora
hyphessobryconis. So can most other tetras and many cyprinids. Angels
can get another parasite with different morphology, and bettas a third.
The microsporidians don't appear to freely cross-infect unrelated
species the way parasites like ich and costia do.

You must be aware that the absence of cross-infection in your shop does
not mean it can't happen. Consider the possibility that the wild-caught
cardinals in your store had some immunity to NTD while the farm-raised
neons and other tetras didn't.

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[Frank]

Altum wrote,
>according to experts with microscopes
>neons and cardinals can both be infected with Pleistophora
>hyphessobryconis. So can most other tetras and many cyprinids.

It's hard to argue with a microscope, but there must be somewhat of a
resistance for the statement to come up so often and in so many sites.

>Consider the possibility that the wild-caught
>cardinals in your store had some immunity to NTD while the farm-raised
>neons and other tetras didn't...

Most of the time I bred the cardinals for our stores. I would suspect
that it's the tank raised cardinals that would have more of a
resistance to NTD than the wild or pond raised cardinals... About the
only time I see what looks to be NTD, is in the big chain stores with
central filtering. Quite often one can see a neon tank down with the
disease, but the cardinals will be looking good. Then again, most of
the time I beleave the symptoms are misdiagnosised as some bacterial
infections mimic NTD. If Nalidixic Acid or protiozin treatments are
successfull (as with most of the time), the disease was misdiagnosised.
I sold to other stores other than our own - a few times the owners of
the stores would close a tank due to NTD, which to date is untreatable.
They would give me the tank of neons, which *most* of the time, when
treated were cured, so was nothing but a bacterial infection. Like
those stores, most people misdiagnosis the symptoms, thus won't even
treat, but trash the fish. Like I said, most cardinals are tank bred
now, while neons are still brought in from the wild - mabe some gene
therapy going on here (?) ................... Frank

[-ED]

> >Consider the possibility that the wild-caught
> >cardinals in your store had some immunity to NTD while the farm-raised
> >neons and other tetras didn't...
>
> Most of the time I bred the cardinals for our stores. I would suspect
> that it's the tank raised cardinals that would have more of a
> resistance to NTD than the wild or pond raised cardinals... About the
> only time I see what looks to be NTD, is in the big chain stores with
> central filtering. Quite often one can see a neon tank down with the
> disease, but the cardinals will be looking good. Then again, most of
> the time I beleave the symptoms are misdiagnosised as some bacterial
> infections mimic NTD. If Nalidixic Acid or protiozin treatments are
> successfull (as with most of the time), the disease was misdiagnosised.
> I sold to other stores other than our own - a few times the owners of
> the stores would close a tank due to NTD, which to date is untreatable.
> They would give me the tank of neons, which *most* of the time, when
> treated were cured, so was nothing but a bacterial infection. Like
> those stores, most people misdiagnosis the symptoms, thus won't even
> treat, but trash the fish. Like I said, most cardinals are tank bred
> now, while neons are still brought in from the wild - mabe some gene
> therapy going on here (?) ................... Frank
>
Are the neons more tempermental (lack of better words) in their breeding
habits while in captivity?..-ED

[Frank]

ED wrote,
>Are the neons more tempermental (lack of better words) in their breeding
>habits while in captivity?

I found cardinals were much easyer to breed - My breeders were tank
bred, but supposable so were the neon breeders I ordered,
twice............. Frank

[Altum]

Frank wrote:
> Altum wrote,
>> according to experts with microscopes
>> neons and cardinals can both be infected with Pleistophora
>> hyphessobryconis. So can most other tetras and many cyprinids.
>
> It's hard to argue with a microscope, but there must be somewhat of a
> resistance for the statement to come up so often and in so many sites.

Fair point. It's probably a combination of moderate resistance and
urban legend.

>> Consider the possibility that the wild-caught
>> cardinals in your store had some immunity to NTD while the farm-raised
>> neons and other tetras didn't...
>
> Most of the time I bred the cardinals for our stores. I would suspect
> that it's the tank raised cardinals that would have more of a
> resistance to NTD than the wild or pond raised cardinals... About the
> only time I see what looks to be NTD, is in the big chain stores with
> central filtering. Quite often one can see a neon tank down with the
> disease, but the cardinals will be looking good. Then again, most of
> the time I beleave the symptoms are misdiagnosised as some bacterial
> infections mimic NTD. If Nalidixic Acid or protiozin treatments are
> successfull (as with most of the time), the disease was misdiagnosised.
> I sold to other stores other than our own - a few times the owners of
> the stores would close a tank due to NTD, which to date is untreatable.
> They would give me the tank of neons, which *most* of the time, when
> treated were cured, so was nothing but a bacterial infection. Like
> those stores, most people misdiagnosis the symptoms, thus won't even
> treat, but trash the fish. Like I said, most cardinals are tank bred
> now, while neons are still brought in from the wild - mabe some gene
> therapy going on here (?) ................... Frank

Hmmm... If fish farms have occasional NTD wipeouts, the remaining fish
could be more resistant. A few generations and maybe the fish are
resistant with no tinkering at all.

Interesting that you had wild neons and tank-raised cardinals.
Everywhere I have lived it has been the other way around. Stores around
here put the newly imported cardinals into RO water with only a tiny
amount of minerals to help them recover from shipping. Unfortunately,
it is up to the customer to acclimate them to our tapwater.

There are some really interesting articles on cardinal tetra exports as
a cottage industry in Brazil. 80% of fish shipped from the Rio Negro in
Brazil are cardinals. Cardinal tetra farming gives small villages a
sustainable income that doesn't rely on deforestation. Unfortunately,
commercial breeding of cardinals is starting to damage the industry.

http://www.idrc.ca/en/ev-67642-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html
http://www.fao.org/NEWS/1999/990901-e.htm
http://www.ofish.org/data-area.asp?aid=9818&gid=4838

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[Frank]

Altum wrote,
>Interesting that you had wild neons and tank-raised cardinals...

I ordered both - at the time, tank raised cardinals were a lot easyer
to come by than tank raised neons.

>Stores around
>here put the newly imported cardinals into RO water with only a tiny
>amount of minerals to help them recover from shipping. Unfortunately,
>it is up to the customer to acclimate them to our tapwater....

That's how the larger chain stores around here do it, not only with
cardinals and neons, but all the fish. ................... Frank

[Flash Wilson]

On Tue, 02 May 2006 13:16:35 GMT, -ED > wrote:
>I've read alittle about this problem with the neons...I was curious if
>cardinal share this malady as well? Thanks all.....-ED

Yep. Mine had it (or it might have been false neon disease,
don't think it's easy to tell which). The shop promptly replaced
the fish with more infected ones. I lost a lot of fish.

I now always ask how long they have been in quarantine for,
before buying. One store here always quarantines, one might do,
and one doesn't seem to bother.

All you can do is put them down :(

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[Frank]

Flash Wilson wrote,
>The shop promptly replaced
>the fish with more infected ones. I lost a lot of fish...

Did they then replace the second infected batch of fish? And how about
any other fish in the tank that died because of both groups of infected
fish - did they replace them also?

>One store here always quarantines, one might do,
>and one doesn't seem to bother....

Sounds like _one_ of the stores is trying to do things right and not
there just to put their hand in your pocket. If it were I, I would only
be buying from that one store, and I'm not only talking about buying
fish................. Frank