Making a pond from railway sleepers.

[Ann Heanes]

GlacierHi,
Hubby is hoping to construct a new pond from railway sleepers. He is quite
happy about doing this without plans/help, I (on the other hand) would
prefer to see some instructions/help as it will be quite an expensive
undertaking. Is there any where on the internet where we could find
instructions and answers to any problems which may come up.
Thanks in advance.

-- Grannie Annie --
<*)))>< ><(((*>

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are TWO "Koi-Lo's" on this NG*

"Ann Heanes" > wrote in message
...
> GlacierHi,
> Hubby is hoping to construct a new pond from railway sleepers. He is quite
> happy about doing this without plans/help, I (on the other hand) would
> prefer to see some instructions/help as it will be quite an expensive
> undertaking. Is there any where on the internet where we could find
> instructions and answers to any problems which may come up.
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -- Grannie Annie --
> <*)))>< ><(((*>
=========================
I wish I could be more help but do know someone who used them, drilling
trough them and joining them together with rebar. They used a thick rubber
liner and had no problems. Maybe someone will come along and offer you more
advice on these "sleeper" ponds.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are several *Koi-Lo's*
on the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Derek Broughton]

Koi-Lo wrote:

> "Ann Heanes" > wrote in message
> ...

>> Hubby is hoping to construct a new pond from railway sleepers. He is
>> quite happy about doing this without plans/help, I (on the other hand)
>> would prefer to see some instructions/help as it will be quite an
>> expensive undertaking. Is there any where on the internet where we could
>> find instructions and answers to any problems which may come up.

> I wish I could be more help but do know someone who used them, drilling
> trough them and joining them together with rebar. They used a thick
> rubber
> liner and had no problems. Maybe someone will come along and offer you
> more advice on these "sleeper" ponds.

I used them for part of my pond (I used an earth berm for the rest) and
wouldn't do it that way again. Creosote soaked railway sleepers are way
more toxic than PT lumber, and I discovered that even very old sleepers
manage to transfer some of that creosote to your skin or clothes.
However, the basic principle of building with large lumber is pretty
simple. For two or three sleepers height, just drill holes through them,
and pound a rebar through and at least a foot into the ground. I used huge
dovetail joints on my corners, and that turned out to be serious
engineering overkill. Just overlap the timbers. Then put a standard pond
liner - your choice of material - in the hole.
--
derek

[Dereks ho Koi-Lo]

Well what do you expect for something like this coming from a Canuck
that is a well known dumbass to begin with...............duh!

On Tue, 02 May 2006 12:19:09 -0300, Derek Broughton
> wrote:
>><>Koi-Lo wrote:
>><>
>><>> "Ann Heanes" > wrote in message
>><>> ...
>><>
>><>>> Hubby is hoping to construct a new pond from railway sleepers. He is
>><>>> quite happy about doing this without plans/help, I (on the other hand)
>><>>> would prefer to see some instructions/help as it will be quite an
>><>>> expensive undertaking. Is there any where on the internet where we could
>><>>> find instructions and answers to any problems which may come up.
>><>
>><>> I wish I could be more help but do know someone who used them, drilling
>><>> trough them and joining them together with rebar. They used a thick
>><>> rubber
>><>> liner and had no problems. Maybe someone will come along and offer you
>><>> more advice on these "sleeper" ponds.
>><>
>><>I used them for part of my pond (I used an earth berm for the rest) and
>><>wouldn't do it that way again. Creosote soaked railway sleepers are way
>><>more toxic than PT lumber, and I discovered that even very old sleepers
>><>manage to transfer some of that creosote to your skin or clothes.
>><>However, the basic principle of building with large lumber is pretty
>><>simple. For two or three sleepers height, just drill holes through them,
>><>and pound a rebar through and at least a foot into the ground. I used huge
>><>dovetail joints on my corners, and that turned out to be serious
>><>engineering overkill. Just overlap the timbers. Then put a standard pond
>><>liner - your choice of material - in the hole.

Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1982.
Aquariums since 1956.
Some assholes Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are several *Koi-Lo's* on rec.ponds.
But, I am the one and only original Koi-Lo.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[[email protected]]

railway sleepers are treated with really disgusting smelling preservatives that reek
when it gets hot. not to mention they are very bulky and difficult to connect
together. why not just construct a simple stud wall with green treated 2x4s and face
it on the inside with green treated plywood? here is mine
http://weloveteaching.com/mypond/2000/p2000.htm
Ingrid

"Ann Heanes" > wrote:

>GlacierHi,
>Hubby is hoping to construct a new pond from railway sleepers. He is quite
>happy about doing this without plans/help, I (on the other hand) would
>prefer to see some instructions/help as it will be quite an expensive
>undertaking. Is there any where on the internet where we could find
>instructions and answers to any problems which may come up.
>Thanks in advance.
>
>-- Grannie Annie --
> <*)))>< ><(((*>
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[** ~ A R T J A M E S ~ ** Roy's friend!]

Because the folks want cross ties, thats why.What may be offensive and
disgusting to some is not to others, so why do folks in these forums
always have to change or try top sway folks minds...........Its like
this.......Who gives a flying **** what you have yur pond made out of,
they want sleepers, so get the **** over it folks, or do not reply
unless you can answer their quesiton as asked..They did not ask what
to make their pond out of now did they? As much as I hate to admit it
the bitch Carol came the closest to answering the post in the manner
of what they wanted to know.......Difficult to connect and heavy may
be to you a insurmountable task, to them may be not.....its their
decision..Go with the cross ties, its a good base and will last
forever .
We all have our own personal tastes and there is certainly nothing
wrong with sleepers......







On Tue, 02 May 2006 21:34:39 GMT, wrote:
>><>railway sleepers are treated with really disgusting smelling preservatives that reek
>><>when it gets hot. not to mention they are very bulky and difficult to connect
>><>together. why not just construct a simple stud wall with green treated 2x4s and face
>><>it on the inside with green treated plywood? here is mine
>><>http://weloveteaching.com/mypond/2000/p2000.htm
>><>Ingrid
>><>
>><>"Ann Heanes" > wrote:
>><>
>><>>GlacierHi,
>><>>Hubby is hoping to construct a new pond from railway sleepers. He is quite
>><>>happy about doing this without plans/help, I (on the other hand) would
>><>>prefer to see some instructions/help as it will be quite an expensive
>><>>undertaking. Is there any where on the internet where we could find
>><>>instructions and answers to any problems which may come up.
>><>>Thanks in advance.
>><>>
>><>>-- Grannie Annie --
>><>> <*)))>< ><(((*>
>><>>
>><>
>><>
>><>
>><>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>><>List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
>><>http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
>><>sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
>><>www.drsolo.com
>><>Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>><>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>><>I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
>><>I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
>><>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>><>Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1982.
Aquariums since 1956.
Some assholes Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are several *Koi-Lo's* on rec.ponds.
But, I am the one and only original Koi-Lo.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[2pods]

"Ann Heanes" > wrote in message
...
> GlacierHi,
> Hubby is hoping to construct a new pond from railway sleepers. He is quite
> happy about doing this without plans/help, I (on the other hand) would
> prefer to see some instructions/help as it will be quite an expensive
> undertaking. Is there any where on the internet where we could find
> instructions and answers to any problems which may come up.
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -- Grannie Annie --
> <*)))>< ><(((*>
>

It's not that hard, but I wish I had known there were different grades of
railway sleeper, including "new" (no preservative) before I ordered mine.

Go and see the sleepers first and make sure the sleepers delivered are the
ones that were picked.
Mine obviously wasn't.
http://www.katzsisters.com/Summer~04~018.jpg
This has all changed now, and there is another, bigger, sleeper pond where
the small moulded one was.

As derek said, dovetail the ends ( long one, then short one), put a layer of
sand down (I was on slabs), very thick weed membrane, then the liner.

Fill and stretch, and stick a top around the edges.
HTH

Peter

[Gill Passman]

** ~ A R T J A M E S ~ ** Roy's friend! wrote:
> Because the folks want cross ties, thats why.What may be offensive and
> disgusting to some is not to others, so why do folks in these forums
> always have to change or try top sway folks minds...........Its like
> this.......Who gives a flying **** what you have yur pond made out of,
> they want sleepers, so get the **** over it folks, or do not reply
> unless you can answer their quesiton as asked..They did not ask what
> to make their pond out of now did they? As much as I hate to admit it
> the bitch Carol came the closest to answering the post in the manner
> of what they wanted to know.......Difficult to connect and heavy may
> be to you a insurmountable task, to them may be not.....its their
> decision..Go with the cross ties, its a good base and will last
> forever .
> We all have our own personal tastes and there is certainly nothing
> wrong with sleepers......
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 02 May 2006 21:34:39 GMT, wrote:
>
>>><>railway sleepers are treated with really disgusting smelling preservatives that reek
>>><>when it gets hot. not to mention they are very bulky and difficult to connect
>>><>together. why not just construct a simple stud wall with green treated 2x4s and face
>>><>it on the inside with green treated plywood? here is mine
>>><>http://weloveteaching.com/mypond/2000/p2000.htm
>>><>Ingrid
>>><>
>>><>"Ann Heanes" > wrote:
>>><>
>>><>>GlacierHi,
>>><>>Hubby is hoping to construct a new pond from railway sleepers. He is quite
>>><>>happy about doing this without plans/help, I (on the other hand) would
>>><>>prefer to see some instructions/help as it will be quite an expensive
>>><>>undertaking. Is there any where on the internet where we could find
>>><>>instructions and answers to any problems which may come up.
>>><>>Thanks in advance.
>>><>>
>>><>>-- Grannie Annie --
>>><>> <*)))>< ><(((*>
>>><>>
>>><>
>>><>
>>><>
>>><>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>><>List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
>>><>http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
>>><>sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
>>><>www.drsolo.com
>>><>Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>>><>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>><>I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
>>><>I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
>>><>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>><>Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan
>
>
> Koi-Lo....
> Frugal ponding since 1982.
> Aquariums since 1956.
> Some assholes Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://tinyurl.com/9do58
> *Note: There are several *Koi-Lo's* on rec.ponds.
> But, I am the one and only original Koi-Lo.
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Now, railway sleepers certainly exude a number of resins...I use them in
my garden as ways of creating raised flower beds in an altogether flat
environment...but I will have to be with Carol and Roy here that if you
buy a good enough pond liner it will not be an issue....when we got the
kiddy area put in the landscape people were saying to us that we could
make a great Koi Pond up there once the kids grow up with the correct
pond lining.....they had a lot of experience in such things....the main
structure up there is railway sleepers buried deep as well as 2 foot
above the surface....just what I got told but validated by two very
experienced people on this newsgroup - shame I have to wait so many
years for the youngest not to want to play there...

Gill

[Derek Broughton]

2pods wrote:

> As derek said, dovetail the ends

No, I said that's what I _did_ - but dovetails are overkill

> ( long one, then short one)

This, though, implies that you just mean to overlap them - which is good.
To a woodworker, "dovetail" is an angled, fan-shaped joint. Difficult to
do in 1" cabinetry. Really, _really_, difficult to do with a bow saw on
railway sleepers!
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

Gill Passman wrote:

> Now, railway sleepers certainly exude a number of resins...I use them in
> my garden as ways of creating raised flower beds in an altogether flat
> environment...but I will have to be with Carol and Roy here that if you
> buy a good enough pond liner it will not be an issue...

Not for your pond - that's not where the issue really lies. If they're the
old creosote ones, they're not even safe for you to sit on. Even if you
don't believe in carcinogens, they ruin your clothes. As for the
possibility that they could last a generation - who wants that in an
ornamental pond? Where's the fun of rebuilding?
--
derek

[Mister Gardener]

On Wed, 03 May 2006 09:19:47 -0300, Derek Broughton
> wrote:

>Gill Passman wrote:
>
>> Now, railway sleepers certainly exude a number of resins...I use them in
>> my garden as ways of creating raised flower beds in an altogether flat
>> environment...but I will have to be with Carol and Roy here that if you
>> buy a good enough pond liner it will not be an issue...
>
>Not for your pond - that's not where the issue really lies. If they're the
>old creosote ones, they're not even safe for you to sit on. Even if you
>don't believe in carcinogens, they ruin your clothes. As for the
>possibility that they could last a generation - who wants that in an
>ornamental pond? Where's the fun of rebuilding?

All of my gardens are raised beds, framed with timber. I sidestepped
the entire railroad ties/pressure treated lumber/new less toxic
pressure treated lumber dilemma by purchasing 6x6 cedar timbers, 8
feet in length. Cedar is the northeast's poor person's version of
redwood, which is prohibitively expensive here. Cedar ages nicely, and
after ten years, mine have at the very least 10 more years of life in
them. They're not rot proof, but they are very resistant. I pay $10
per 8 footer, so their price is competitive with railroad ties and
better than any pressure treated lumber of the same dimensions. When I
began gardening 30 some years ago, I chose the organic route - not
because of some altruistic concern for mother nature, but because when
I began reading the labels on the bags of stuff used in conventional
gardening I was so completely lost and confused and knew that I would
not have the self discipline to follow all of the directions without
taking short cuts or throwing in a few extra handfuls here and there.
Same with the pressure treated lumber issue. By going directly to the
untreated lumber, I saved myself countless hours of digging through
all the information on the internet determining what the various
methods of preservation meant to me and my projects. I'd rather be
gardening or ponding instead of spending hours researching.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Mister Gardener]

On Wed, 03 May 2006 09:08:33 -0300, Derek Broughton
> wrote:

>2pods wrote:
>
>> As derek said, dovetail the ends
>
>No, I said that's what I _did_ - but dovetails are overkill
>
>> ( long one, then short one)
>
>This, though, implies that you just mean to overlap them - which is good.
>To a woodworker, "dovetail" is an angled, fan-shaped joint. Difficult to
>do in 1" cabinetry. Really, _really_, difficult to do with a bow saw on
>railway sleepers!

You beat me to it, Derek. When I read "dovetailed" railroad ties, I
thought wow, how in the world did he do that, where in the world did
he find a jig to do that, must have been a humongous router.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Roy]

ONly because your a freaking dumbass...............any cub scout could
easily fit them in dovetail fashion and not raise a sweat....ya old
****** whiney ass sissy boy.
On Wed, 03 May 2006 09:08:33 -0300, Derek Broughton
> wrote:
>><>2pods wrote:
>><>
>><>> As derek said, dovetail the ends
>><>
>><>No, I said that's what I _did_ - but dovetails are overkill
>><>
>><>> ( long one, then short one)
>><>
>><>This, though, implies that you just mean to overlap them - which is good.
>><>To a woodworker, "dovetail" is an angled, fan-shaped joint. Difficult to
>><>do in 1" cabinetry. Really, _really_, difficult to do with a bow saw on
>><>railway sleepers!

Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1982.
Aquariums since 1956.
Some assholes Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://maketiny.com/1cT
My pics.
http://n5.se/1cR


*Note: There are several *Koi-Lo's* on rec.ponds.
But, I am the one and only original Koi-Lo.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Roy]

Bull ****ing **** derek...it will ruin your clothes,,,,,,,,,,,duh! I
have a suggetsion for you and you alone. Go find a RR and lay across
or even just set on one of those long long steel things called rails.
Stay there until a train knocks your stupid whiney ass into the next
millenium......and then tell us what it was like.

On Wed, 03 May 2006 09:19:47 -0300, Derek Broughton
> wrote:
>><>Gill Passman wrote:
>><>
>><>> Now, railway sleepers certainly exude a number of resins...I use them in
>><>> my garden as ways of creating raised flower beds in an altogether flat
>><>> environment...but I will have to be with Carol and Roy here that if you
>><>> buy a good enough pond liner it will not be an issue...
>><>
>><>Not for your pond - that's not where the issue really lies. If they're the
>><>old creosote ones, they're not even safe for you to sit on. Even if you
>><>don't believe in carcinogens, they ruin your clothes. As for the
>><>possibility that they could last a generation - who wants that in an
>><>ornamental pond? Where's the fun of rebuilding?

Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1982.
Aquariums since 1956.
Some assholes Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://maketiny.com/1cT
My pics.
http://n5.se/1cR


*Note: There are several *Koi-Lo's* on rec.ponds.
But, I am the one and only original Koi-Lo.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ A R T J A M E S ~ Roy's friend!]

For all you dumb****s..........a half lap joint is more than
sufficiient to hold any cross tie together for a freaking pond. Derek
anbd his dovetail joints, .........the sucker has been outside in the
cold canadian weather too long and his pee brain is frozen, or he has
had it up under Carols dress he is suffering from lack of O2 and he is
babbling.......

On Wed, 03 May 2006 09:08:33 -0300, Derek Broughton the whiney ass
babbler > wrote:
>><>2pods wrote:
>><>
>><>> As derek said, dovetail the ends
>><>
>><>No, I said that's what I _did_ - but dovetails are overkill
>><>
>><>> ( long one, then short one)
>><>
>><>This, though, implies that you just mean to overlap them - which is good.
>><>To a woodworker, "dovetail" is an angled, fan-shaped joint. Difficult to
>><>do in 1" cabinetry. Really, _really_, difficult to do with a bow saw on
>><>railway sleepers!

Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1982.
Aquariums since 1956.
Some assholes Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://maketiny.com/1cT
My pics.
http://n5.se/1cR


*Note: There are several *Koi-Lo's* on rec.ponds.
But, I am the one and only original Koi-Lo.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are TWO "Koi-Lo's" on this NG*

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>
> All of my gardens are raised beds, framed with timber.
============
As frugal gardeners we cut down some sickly looking cedar trees on our
property, trimmed them equal lengths and used them to make a raised bed out
front. It could have been lined for a shallow fish pond. Then we filled it
with rich black FREE topsoil that washes down from our neighbor's cow
pasture. Saved us a bundle.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ A R T J A M E S ~ Roy's friend!]

"Utter" bull**** spews from yur mouth Carol................ya need to
get a life bitch.

On Wed, 3 May 2006 09:59:23 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:
>><>*Note: There are TWO "Koi-Lo's" on this NG*
>><>
>><>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>><>>
>><>> All of my gardens are raised beds, framed with timber.
>><>============
>><>As frugal gardeners we cut down some sickly looking cedar trees on our
>><>property, trimmed them equal lengths and used them to make a raised bed out
>><>front. It could have been lined for a shallow fish pond. Then we filled it
>><>with rich black FREE topsoil that washes down from our neighbor's cow
>><>pasture. Saved us a bundle.

Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1982.
Aquariums since 1956.
Some assholes Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://maketiny.com/1cT
My pics.
http://n5.se/1cR


*Note: There are several *Koi-Lo's* on rec.ponds.
But, I am the one and only original Koi-Lo.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[2pods]

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 03 May 2006 09:08:33 -0300, Derek Broughton
> > wrote:
>
>>2pods wrote:
>>
>>> As derek said, dovetail the ends
>>
>>No, I said that's what I _did_ - but dovetails are overkill
>>
>>> ( long one, then short one)
>>
>>This, though, implies that you just mean to overlap them - which is good.
>>To a woodworker, "dovetail" is an angled, fan-shaped joint. Difficult to
>>do in 1" cabinetry. Really, _really_, difficult to do with a bow saw on
>>railway sleepers!
>
> You beat me to it, Derek. When I read "dovetailed" railroad ties, I
> thought wow, how in the world did he do that, where in the world did
> he find a jig to do that, must have been a humongous router.
>
> -- Mister Gardener
> -- Pull the WEED to email me

My router is my own business ;-)

Sorry, as derek said, I meant overlap them.
It was no fun cutting some of them though, chainsaw got very hot.

Peter

[Derek Broughton]

Mister Gardener wrote:

> On Wed, 03 May 2006 09:08:33 -0300, Derek Broughton
> > wrote:
>
>>2pods wrote:
>>
>>> As derek said, dovetail the ends
>>
>>No, I said that's what I _did_ - but dovetails are overkill
>>
>>> ( long one, then short one)
>>
>>This, though, implies that you just mean to overlap them - which is good.
>>To a woodworker, "dovetail" is an angled, fan-shaped joint. Difficult to
>>do in 1" cabinetry. Really, _really_, difficult to do with a bow saw on
>>railway sleepers!
>
> You beat me to it, Derek. When I read "dovetailed" railroad ties, I
> thought wow, how in the world did he do that, where in the world did
> he find a jig to do that, must have been a humongous router.

I did four joints, with a bow saw, and it took me three evenings, I think.
Definitely not worth the effort :-)
--
derek

[~ janj]

>
>..... derek...it will ruin your clothes,,,,,,,,,,,duh! I
>have a suggetsion for you and you alone. Go find a RR and lay across
>or even just set on one of those long long steel things called rails.

Not meaning to interrupt.... oh wait, I guess I am.... but I was kindda
hoping you'd lay low on all rec.ponders. I mean... after all, other than
support Carol, what has Derek "really" done to you? ~ jan :o(

-----------------
(Do you know where your water quality is?)