Fish and wildlife laws

[Mister Gardener]

(I began this thread over on rec.ponds, but I realized that many
readers of rafm don't visit rec ponds. This is such an interesting
topic to me, the story here is only partially complete, so I'm
dragging the topic over to rafm so we can all get a look and add our 2
cents to it. The thread began with a comment on the usefulness, or
not, of snails in ponds.)

The State of Maine Fish and Wildlife Department agrees that there is
no such thing as a good snail, hence their importation into the state
is illegal.

"Snails - Because they serve as intermediate host for a wide range of
aquatic parasites and other pathogens, all snails (Gastropoda) are
restricted and can be imported only by a special importation permit
with specific health certifications, therefore snails cannot be traded
by commercial pet shops. "

Introducing a snail into a fish pond would likely bring a double
whammy, since pond fish are banned in the sate of Maine as well. I had
the pleasure of meeting the man who does inspections across the state
to enforce these laws. I asked him whether a pond in a private
person's yard could have any fish at all, and he told me yes, they may
have fish like shiners and blue gills if those fish were obtained from
another lake in the state, but only with a special permit. He told me
he has shut down hundreds of goldfish ponds and that the fine is
$10,000. I ran into the guy quite by accident and I ran as many
questions past him as I could, and I could have kept him busy for a
few days without stopping for a break. Getting the story (and reason)
on each and every species on the banned or permitted list.

Introducing tadpoles into any body of water is illegal. First grade
teachers are no longer permitted to bring in their tadpoles in a jar
classroom projects.

We were in a pet shop for this conversation, a pet shop that I knew
had tons of little snails that had hitchhiked into the state on
aquatic plants. I asked him if the law, and his enforcement, extended
to those snails as well. He said, if I inspect the tanks here, and see
a snail, I will tell the owner to kill them, and I will wait to see
that it is done. Otherwise, I could shut down the store or issue a
very large fine.

When I posted the link to Maine's official list of allowed and banned
species a few weeks ago, several people expressed disbelief that the
Jack Dempsey has been added to the list of banned imports. How, many
people asked, could a Jack Dempsey be a threat, no way could one
survive a Maine winter. I asked the inspector about this and he told
me that Jack Dempseys were found to have survived more than one winter
in the state of Connecticut, whose climate can be just as harsh as
southern Maine. Amazing.

Recently, officials were finally able to capture and remove an
alligator that had survived 3 winters in a Maine pond.

And on a more hopeful note, this guy is not all bad. He told me he has
closed 3 WalMart fish departments and expects to close another one
this week.

I'm looking forward to meeting with this guy again - he believes the
only way these fish and wildlife laws are going to work will be
through public education. Amen to that.

This web link jumps to the state's official list of animals that are
allowed for import into the state of Maine - if it is not on this
list, it's not allowed here.
http://www.state.me.us/ifw/wildlife/unrestrictedspecies.htm

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are TWO "Koi-Lo's" on this NG*

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>
> This web link jumps to the state's official list of animals that are
> allowed for import into the state of Maine - if it is not on this
> list, it's not allowed here.
> http://www.state.me.us/ifw/wildlife/unrestrictedspecies.htm
==============
I saw this over on rec.ponds. They're probably doing what they're doing for
the good of the state. Introduced species can cause real problems in new
areas as everyone knows. Our native bluebirds are being pushed out by
introduced European Starlings. English sparrows compete with our native
birds..... Japanese beetles have no predators here and are very damaging.
Who's to criticize Maine? Besides, Stephen Kings from there. :-)
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((*>

[[email protected]]

I currently have eight small Angels (dime to quarter size) in a 20 gal
tank. I am growing them out in this tank for a few months before I
move them over to a 90 gal. The twenty has a Whisper #2 Power filter,
a UGF filter with 25 lbs of gravel, and about five small Amazon Sword
plants. The 90 gal is not currently set up but I have a Emporer 400
and a UGF with 100 lbs of gravel.

I am hoping to move the Whisper #2, the gravel, and the plants from the
20 into the 90 in order to do a non-cycling transfer. Will this work ?
I have heard that filtration is related more to fish load than tank
size. However, this seems like quite a jump.

I originally set up the 20 with a non-cycling transfer by running the
Whisper #2 on another tank for a few months before setting up the 20.

[Gail Futoran]

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
[snip]
> And on a more hopeful note, this guy is not all bad. He told me he has
> closed 3 WalMart fish departments and expects to close another one
> this week.

Just out of curiosity, what was the basis of
shutting down WalMart fish departments?
And did he only shut down the live fish and
live plants part of it, or did he shut down
equipment, nets, food selling, and etc?

Gail

[Adam]

What if I were to go find one of these Dempseys in a Maine pond and
move it to my aquarium? Then can I have a Dempsy in Maine? hmmmmmmmm

I think the insinuation about Wal-Mart is that most aquarists feel that
they are comprable to puppy mills in some ways(Debbie's Petland in
Mass. comes to mind...). Maybe a bad analogy... The inspector may have
shut them down for a different reason though. Perhaps they imported
something on the banned list. An oversight by a huge company...
stranger things have happened. If he shut down the nets and equipment
sales, I think that is ridiculous (and not likely) and would be a case
of power tripping state inspector disease (this disease is resitant to
Malachite green, formalyn, tetracycline. Try 20% 'personality changes'
daily until A-hole is behaving normally. I digress...).

[Mister Gardener]

On Wed, 3 May 2006 12:55:59 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>Who's to criticize Maine? Besides, Stephen Kings from there. :-)

I think he got to stay because he was born here. Otherwise, I doubt if
he would have passed the requirements for importation of mammals. If
he is, in fact, a mammal.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Altum]

Mister Gardener wrote:

> Now this was where the conversation got really exciting. He didn't
> have time to go into the specific infractions, but his first interest
> is in preventing animal cruelty.

<snip>

Just wanted to say that I'm reading these posts with great interest.
Thanks for jumping newsgroups and posting here. It's nice to hear that
that someone has the integrity and ability to go after both Walmart and
Mom & Pop stores for animal cruelty. Nurse shark in a 55 gallon tank?!?
Sheesh...

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Mister Gardener]

On 3 May 2006 12:14:15 -0700, "Adam" >
wrote:

>What if I were to go find one of these Dempseys in a Maine pond and
>move it to my aquarium? Then can I have a Dempsy in Maine? hmmmmmmmm

With my tongue in my cheek as I believe yours is: You would have to
get a special permit allowing you to keep native wildlife in
captivity. I think that kind of restriction is common in many states,
can't keep native species like raccoons or squirrels.
>
>I think the insinuation about Wal-Mart is that most aquarists feel that
>they are comprable to puppy mills in some ways(Debbie's Petland in
>Mass. comes to mind...).

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Mister Gardener]

On 3 May 2006 11:27:12 -0700, wrote:

>I currently have eight small Angels (dime to quarter size) in a 20 gal
>tank. I am growing them out in this tank for a few months before I
>move them over to a 90 gal. The twenty has a Whisper #2 Power filter,
>a UGF filter with 25 lbs of gravel, and about five small Amazon Sword
>plants. The 90 gal is not currently set up but I have a Emporer 400
>and a UGF with 100 lbs of gravel.
>
>I am hoping to move the Whisper #2, the gravel, and the plants from the
>20 into the 90 in order to do a non-cycling transfer. Will this work ?
> I have heard that filtration is related more to fish load than tank
>size. However, this seems like quite a jump.
>
>I originally set up the 20 with a non-cycling transfer by running the
>Whisper #2 on another tank for a few months before setting up the 20.

I think the sooner you move your angels from the 20 to the 90 the
better and faster they will grow. That many angels at a rapid growth
age in 20 gallons is going to require much more care in keeping up the
water quality, more frequent water changes, etc.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are TWO "Koi-Lo's" on this NG*

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> Now this was where the conversation got really exciting. He didn't
> have time to go into the specific infractions, but his first interest
> is in preventing animal cruelty. He just said that tanks were
> deplorable, dead fish left in so long they were rotting away, water
> testing way out of limit, bettas in tiny plastic cups with ............
============================
This is incredible. The WM stores here have the same conditions and no one
cares. There's really no one to report them to. The managers may have the
tanks cleaned up after a strong complaint, but you go back in a month and
it's the same sad conditions all over again. There's also a M&P pet store
almost as bad. There's no one to report them to either. It's so
frustrating.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are TWO "Koi-Lo's" on this NG*

"Altum" > wrote in message
. com...
> Just wanted to say that I'm reading these posts with great interest.
> Thanks for jumping newsgroups and posting here. It's nice to hear that
> that someone has the integrity and ability to go after both Walmart and
> Mom & Pop stores for animal cruelty. Nurse shark in a 55 gallon tank?!?
> Sheesh...
=================
If you ever get the chance to go into an Asian food store that carries live
fish check them out. I saw (and smelled) talapia and koi beyond
description. It's way past cruelty, and no one does anything. It's not
just the WMs and LFSs. Sorry, just had to write this.

--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Mister Gardener]

On Wed, 03 May 2006 20:38:46 GMT, Altum >
wrote:

>Mister Gardener wrote:
>
>> Now this was where the conversation got really exciting. He didn't
>> have time to go into the specific infractions, but his first interest
>> is in preventing animal cruelty.
>
><snip>
>
>Just wanted to say that I'm reading these posts with great interest.
>Thanks for jumping newsgroups and posting here. It's nice to hear that
>that someone has the integrity and ability to go after both Walmart and
>Mom & Pop stores for animal cruelty. Nurse shark in a 55 gallon tank?!?
> Sheesh...

And yes, I do believe that Maine has got a lot on the ball in a lot of
ways, but so do some other states, and if this is happening here, it's
got to be happening in other states as well. But these efforts are
just a drop in the bucket in light of all that needs to be done.
Public education is the only hope for bringing about real changes. A
little over a year ago, the state formed a Animal Precinct styled team
of animal protection officers, operating out of the state government,
no longer leaving it up to individual towns to manage their own animal
abuse problems. This new super team is in the news every time you pick
up a paper, having busted yet another puppy mill or cat lady. As well
as individual pet owners providing inadequate shelter, etc. And the
state courts are working with the team by laying down huge fines and
up to 5 years of jail time. Generally, the public views this team as
heroes. So public education is happening, and I think more people are
beginning to look twice and think twice about some of the things they
are seeing in some pet stores. And equally important, the people are
learning that the perpetrators really are getting arrested and put
through the court system. Making more people more likely to phone in
complaints.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Mister Gardener]

On Wed, 3 May 2006 15:58:27 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>*Note: There are TWO "Koi-Lo's" on this NG*
>
>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> Now this was where the conversation got really exciting. He didn't
>> have time to go into the specific infractions, but his first interest
>> is in preventing animal cruelty. He just said that tanks were
>> deplorable, dead fish left in so long they were rotting away, water
>> testing way out of limit, bettas in tiny plastic cups with ............
>============================
>This is incredible. The WM stores here have the same conditions and no one
>cares. There's really no one to report them to. The managers may have the
>tanks cleaned up after a strong complaint, but you go back in a month and
>it's the same sad conditions all over again. There's also a M&P pet store
>almost as bad. There's no one to report them to either. It's so
>frustrating.

Find your state's fish/wildlife/agricultural departments on the web .
.. . . you might find some contacts there. Most states maintain very
comprehensive web sites.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Mister Gardener]

While I'm in a posting mood, I'll add the eleven banned aquatic plant
list to stimulate even more ohs, aha's, and WHAT!

http://www.maine.gov/dep/blwq/topic/invasives/invlist.htm
-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Frank]

Mister Gardener wrote,
>And yes, I do believe that Maine has got a lot on the ball in a lot of
>ways, but so do some other states, and if this is happening here, it's
>got to be happening in other states as well. But these efforts are
>just a drop in the bucket in light of all that needs to be done. ...

You wasn't able to vote on what you can or can't own - it just became
law, based on someones opinion, fish keeper or not. Same with gun laws
all over the world, antibiotics, seatbelt laws, etc., etc., etc. Why
should I do without because of what someone else has done? I agree that
"Public education is the only hope for bringing about real changes",
but the only education your state government is going to give you only
supports one side of someones opinion. The public education, both pro
and con should come first, then it should be voted on. How long will it
be before you get a high dollar fine for animal abuse, for not putting
your new fish through a quarantine preventive treatment? It's my
opinion all new fish should go through this type of treatment - but you
have also seen other peoples opinion that disagree with me. Is it up to
the state government to give you a huge fine, or jail time for killing
a fish because it didn't go through a preventive treatment when you
bought it (?) - because it's comming to that!

>And the
>state courts are working with the team by laying down huge fines .....

I would like to see where this money is going. Speeding ticket money is
supposed to go to local schools - lots of tickets are written, but the
schools are always asking for more money or the teachers are walking
out or something...
My two cents.............. Frank

[Gail Futoran]

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 03 May 2006 18:34:26 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>>[snip]
>>> And on a more hopeful note, this guy is not all bad. He told me he has
>>> closed 3 WalMart fish departments and expects to close another one
>>> this week.
>>
>>Just out of curiosity, what was the basis of
>>shutting down WalMart fish departments?
>>And did he only shut down the live fish and
>>live plants part of it, or did he shut down
>>equipment, nets, food selling, and etc?
>>
>>Gail
>>
> Now this was where the conversation got really exciting. He didn't
> have time to go into the specific infractions, but his first interest
> is in preventing animal cruelty. He just said that tanks were
> deplorable, dead fish left in so long they were rotting away, water
> testing way out of limit, bettas in tiny plastic cups with NO AIR
> HOLES in the top. (He said he is currently investigating the
> humaneness of keeping bettas in little cups, even those with air
> passages.) In each case it was the fish sales only that were shut
> down, not the pet departments. I asked him, "you can really do that?
> At the largest chain in the world? Who did you have to deal with -
> just the store management or does this go to their corporate people "
> he said each store got a couple of warnings, he interacted only with
> the local store manager and corporate ignored his messages. And even
> though he issued warnings, there was no evidence that management cared
> at all, they made no effort to comply. Said he didn't care if it was
> the biggest store in the world or some old lady selling guppies at a
> church fundraiser, cruelty is cruelty and the fine is the same.
[snip]

Good for him. I'm not sure I agree with all of
Maine's laws re animals (I don't live there, after
all), but he does seem to be taking the job seriously.
We could use more of that in the pet industry.

Thanks for your response.

Gail

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are TWO "Koi-Lo's" on this NG*

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> While I'm in a posting mood, I'll add the eleven banned aquatic plant
> list to stimulate even more ohs, aha's, and WHAT!
>
> http://www.maine.gov/dep/blwq/topic/invasives/invlist.htm
> -- Mister Gardener
> -- Pull the WEED to email me
=======================
Yellow floating heart and frog-bit don't survive the winter here in TN (zone
6). How in the heck does it survive in Maine? I wish I had some of that
"super hardy" variety.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58

Aquarium FAQ are at: http://faq.thekrib.com/
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Mister Gardener]

On Wed, 03 May 2006 19:29:10 -0400, netDenizen > wrote:

>Mister Gardener wrote:
>> While I'm in a posting mood, I'll add the eleven banned aquatic plant
>> list to stimulate even more ohs, aha's, and WHAT!
>>
>> http://www.maine.gov/dep/blwq/topic/invasives/invlist.htm
>> -- Mister Gardener
>> -- Pull the WEED to email me
>
>Ok ooh, aha! Seriously, thanks for posting this interesting information.
>Here in Ontario I haven't seen anacharis (Egeria) or milfoil
>(Myriophyllium) for sale in the whole time since re-starting the
>aquarium hobby in 1991. In my youth those were sure-fire successful plants.
>
>Too bad that the hardy, easy plants & fish seem to be likely to be
>banned - probably because thay may easily naturalize. However, Maine
>still allows the hardy goldfish to be sold. It's probably been
>established in the wild for a long time already.
>
>I wonder whether any group participants have experience collecting hardy
>aquarium plants in the wild? And what would be the implications? I've
>never tried it, and Innes recomended a permanganate dip to kill
>pathogens on wild plants.

It's tough to see a couple of these plants on the not allowed list,
like anacharis and cabomba. Both good starter plants and both very
useful in aquariums. I remember the first time I grew cabomba without
all the leaves falling off - I sure felt like a plant expert then.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Mister Gardener]

On Wed, 3 May 2006 23:02:31 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>Yellow floating heart and frog-bit don't survive the winter here in TN (zone
>6). How in the heck does it survive in Maine? I wish I had some of that
>"super hardy" variety.

The plant list is a little trickier than the animal list. They state
that the 11 plants are prohibited because they are know to be
invasive, but only 4 of the plants, marked with a *, are actually in
the state at this time. I don't know how they determined that the
remaining 7 pose an imminent threat to our environment. I've been
interested in invasives for a long time, mostly of the land animal and
bird species - done a lot of reading - the book Noah's Garden is a
good place to begin. Most of the chapters are about common critters
like pigeons and squirrels, reindeer and elk. There is some
interesting reading on the great lakes, and how the canal system to
the St Lawrence and to New York's harbor created a havoc that is still
plaguing us today.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Mister Gardener]

On 3 May 2006 18:26:41 -0700, "Frank" > wrote:


>>And the
>>state courts are working with the team by laying down huge fines .....
>
>I would like to see where this money is going. Speeding ticket money is
>supposed to go to local schools - lots of tickets are written, but the
>schools are always asking for more money or the teachers are walking
>out or something...
>My two cents.............. Frank

The fine money is going directly toward supporting the shelters
throughout the state and providing salaries for veterinarians to
examine, treat, spay, and neuter all pets before being released for
adoption to shelters.

Your skepticism is noted, and shared by me, for the most part. But
this particular agency really does seem to have their priorities
straight.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Mister Gardener]

On Thu, 04 May 2006 03:07:26 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
> wrote:

>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> On Wed, 03 May 2006 18:34:26 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>>>[snip]
>>>> And on a more hopeful note, this guy is not all bad. He told me he has
>>>> closed 3 WalMart fish departments and expects to close another one
>>>> this week.
>>>
>>>Just out of curiosity, what was the basis of
>>>shutting down WalMart fish departments?
>>>And did he only shut down the live fish and
>>>live plants part of it, or did he shut down
>>>equipment, nets, food selling, and etc?
>>>
>>>Gail
>>>
>> Now this was where the conversation got really exciting. He didn't
>> have time to go into the specific infractions, but his first interest
>> is in preventing animal cruelty. He just said that tanks were
>> deplorable, dead fish left in so long they were rotting away, water
>> testing way out of limit, bettas in tiny plastic cups with NO AIR
>> HOLES in the top. (He said he is currently investigating the
>> humaneness of keeping bettas in little cups, even those with air
>> passages.) In each case it was the fish sales only that were shut
>> down, not the pet departments. I asked him, "you can really do that?
>> At the largest chain in the world? Who did you have to deal with -
>> just the store management or does this go to their corporate people "
>> he said each store got a couple of warnings, he interacted only with
>> the local store manager and corporate ignored his messages. And even
>> though he issued warnings, there was no evidence that management cared
>> at all, they made no effort to comply. Said he didn't care if it was
>> the biggest store in the world or some old lady selling guppies at a
>> church fundraiser, cruelty is cruelty and the fine is the same.
>[snip]
>
>Good for him. I'm not sure I agree with all of
>Maine's laws re animals (I don't live there, after
>all), but he does seem to be taking the job seriously.
>We could use more of that in the pet industry.
>
>Thanks for your response.
>
>Gail
>
This topic is a great conversation starter, that's for sure! But I
think the dialog is healthy, no matter what your views are - our hobby
is not isolated from the natural world around us, and learning all we
can about where our fish come from, their role in their particular
environments, and the possible consequences of removing them from
their home or introducing them to another eco system. I'm not
expecting or attempting to change the opinions others carry on this
subject, but I am hoping that it makes us all take a minute and think
about it. And perhaps pursue further reading and discovery.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Adam]

I am going to take this active thread and sneak in a somewhat off-topic
question. I am interested in setting up a New England Fresh Water
Biotope tank. I don't have a lot of room and would guess that the next
tank I have will be in the 20-50 gallon range, 50 being the max. First
assume that I collect the specimens legally... Now lets say I get
something in the tank that ends up outgrowing it. Would it be wise to
return that fish to the wild? I know the cardinal rule of NEVER release
fish... but in this case, it is actually making me think a little bit.
Some of the issues that have crossed my mind are things like disease
exposure/resistance and dependence on humans for food. Also, with wild
caught cold water fish, is there any need to simulate winter?

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are TWO "Koi-Lo's" on this NG*

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> This topic is a great conversation starter, that's for sure! But I
> think the dialog is healthy, no matter what your views are - our hobby
> is not isolated from the natural world around us, and learning all we
> can about where our fish come from, their role in their particular
> environments, and the possible consequences of removing them from
> their home or introducing them to another eco system. I'm not
> expecting or attempting to change the opinions others carry on this
> subject, but I am hoping that it makes us all take a minute and think
> about it. And perhaps pursue further reading and discovery.
=====================
Where I live there's a huge man-made lake called Percy Priest Lake. It's
stocked with bass and catfish. I also see sunfish and of course many water
birds. I've heard people mention turning lose their excess koi and goldfish
in this lake rather than just kill them. My question is... since it's a
manmade lake... does it matter? The catfish and bass aren't native to this
lake either since this lake didn't exist naturally. Any comments?
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Mister Gardener]

On 4 May 2006 06:59:11 -0700, "Adam" >
wrote:

>I am going to take this active thread and sneak in a somewhat off-topic
>question. I am interested in setting up a New England Fresh Water
>Biotope tank. I don't have a lot of room and would guess that the next
>tank I have will be in the 20-50 gallon range, 50 being the max. First
>assume that I collect the specimens legally... Now lets say I get
>something in the tank that ends up outgrowing it. Would it be wise to
>return that fish to the wild? I know the cardinal rule of NEVER release
>fish... but in this case, it is actually making me think a little bit.
>Some of the issues that have crossed my mind are things like disease
>exposure/resistance and dependence on humans for food. Also, with wild
>caught cold water fish, is there any need to simulate winter?

Good questions. I don't have the answers. If you will be collecting
native fish for your captive display, you will need to go through
whatever rigamarole your state's wildlife department requires, and I'm
not certain where the U.S. Department of Wildlife fits in - they may
have a role in it as well. I will guess that in obtaining the needed
permissions, you will need to have a viable plan for disposing of the
fish, if they outgrow the tank or for some reason you are no longer
able to care for them. Others may have better references on this than
me. Do keep us informed on your progress.



-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Mister Gardener]

On Thu, 4 May 2006 10:23:30 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>*Note: There are TWO "Koi-Lo's" on this NG*
>
>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> This topic is a great conversation starter, that's for sure! But I
>> think the dialog is healthy, no matter what your views are - our hobby
>> is not isolated from the natural world around us, and learning all we
>> can about where our fish come from, their role in their particular
>> environments, and the possible consequences of removing them from
>> their home or introducing them to another eco system. I'm not
>> expecting or attempting to change the opinions others carry on this
>> subject, but I am hoping that it makes us all take a minute and think
>> about it. And perhaps pursue further reading and discovery.
>=====================
>Where I live there's a huge man-made lake called Percy Priest Lake. It's
>stocked with bass and catfish. I also see sunfish and of course many water
>birds. I've heard people mention turning lose their excess koi and goldfish
>in this lake rather than just kill them. My question is... since it's a
>manmade lake... does it matter? The catfish and bass aren't native to this
>lake either since this lake didn't exist naturally. Any comments?

I think that if we get past the assumption that the fish will remain
in the body of water where it is placed, we can see all sorts of
possibilities. Fish and plants are transported to other bodies of
water by predators, birds, human shoes, the list is endless. When a
vehicle enters our state towing a boat, random checks are set up to
inspect the boat, the trailer, the tires, and the tow vehicle tires
for signs of any plants, dead or alive. Hoses and brushes are provided
to clean off the incoming vehicle if they are found to carry unwanted
plant matter. For visitors from England, they provide "hosepipes"
instead of hoses. These "hose down" facilities are provided at key
entry points and popular lake boat launch areas so that individuals
can clean off their boat even if there is no cop standing over them.
Voluntary participation has been better than expected, from what I've
read. A guy drives his boat to a landing and sees a sign and a water
tap and hose and reads the sign and thinks, "hey, I never thought of
that. What's another five minutes to hose down the boat." (Especially
if there happens to be a game warden out in a boat on the lake
watching! - big fines). This kind of approach also provides the most
important element of all, education. Every state has their own rule
book on stocking ponds and moving native wildlife around - and Federal
rules also apply in some areas. Fish and wildlife departments are
notoriously under funded and under staffed, but in spite of the poor
odds, these men and women take their jobs very seriously. The vast
majority of sport hunters and fishers have a deep regard for the wild
outdoors where they practice their sport. They know how quickly a
natural area can be destroyed by someone's carelessness, laziness, or
greed. I neither hunt nor fish. I've looked at the thick little
booklet that is handed out to everyone getting their hunting or
fishing license, and I know that the hunters and fishers are a lot
more informed thus us landlubbers, or farmer john with the private
trout pond.

This thread has become vastly interesting to me, and each new comment
added to it makes me put a little note in my to do list - I just added
"check town office for fish and game rule book." And with each new
comment I am reminded of how little I know about the subject and how
much I have to learn.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Adam]

I don't think that I would ever release a non-native species into the
wild. Even then, I don't think I would release a native species into
the wild unless it was collected from the wild. EVEN THEN, I don't know
if it is a good idea. The thought of euthanizing fish that we have
grown attached to is hard. I try to look at it like this. If you want
to get rid of the fish, you will never see it again anyway, so don't
take the chance of screwing up nature more than we already have. All of
this IMO.

To Mr. Gardner's point about educated hunters/fishers. I too am amazed
at the wealth of knowledge available for these activites. The amount of
information on lobsters alone is amazing. I had no idea about the
notched femal lobster fins... pretty interesting stuff. and no,
lobsters were not what I was thinking when I said New England
biotope... although.... :)

[Mister Gardener]

On 4 May 2006 11:21:34 -0700, "Adam" >
wrote:

>I don't think that I would ever release a non-native species into the
>wild. Even then, I don't think I would release a native species into
>the wild unless it was collected from the wild. EVEN THEN, I don't know
>if it is a good idea. The thought of euthanizing fish that we have
>grown attached to is hard. I try to look at it like this. If you want
>to get rid of the fish, you will never see it again anyway, so don't
>take the chance of screwing up nature more than we already have. All of
>this IMO.
>
>To Mr. Gardner's point about educated hunters/fishers. I too am amazed
>at the wealth of knowledge available for these activites. The amount of
>information on lobsters alone is amazing. I had no idea about the
>notched femal lobster fins... pretty interesting stuff. and no,
>lobsters were not what I was thinking when I said New England
>biotope... although.... :)

When you create your Northeast biotope, make sure the water is
extremely acid and dump a few grams of mercury in, to make it
authentic.
-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are TWO "Koi-Lo's" on this NG*

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> This thread has become vastly interesting to me, and each new comment
> added to it makes me put a little note in my to do list - I just added
> "check town office for fish and game rule book." And with each new
> comment I am reminded of how little I know about the subject and how
> much I have to learn.
=====================
Even if no one dumped unwanted pond fish in lakes and rivers there is
nothing to stop the same kind of transfer you mentioned. With the number
of ponds growing yearly this is bound to happen. Wading birds can carry GF
eggs to our nearby lake, or the river somewhat further away since one small
pond is not netted. For some reason herons don't like this little 150g pond
(my larger ponds are netted) but occasionally I see one on the edge. But
other folks have large unnetted ponds where I live. Most ponders I've met
complain about the herons. Then there's the turtles. We don't even know if
these turtles we have here that wander from pond to pond carry the eggs of
fish or our more exotic pond plans on their shells or legs. We have sliders
and snappers. How did I get a minnow in one of my large outdoor tanks of
koi? A bird or frog had to have landed on the net and dropped an egg in the
water.

As far as our lake here goes. I've never seen any GF or koi in it and
neither has anyone else I asked. The lake is so vast they probably never
meet to mate or perhaps they become catfish or bass food.
--

Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Nikki]

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On 4 May 2006 11:21:34 -0700, "Adam" >
> wrote:
>
>>I don't think that I would ever release a non-native species into the
>>wild. Even then, I don't think I would release a native species into
>>the wild unless it was collected from the wild. EVEN THEN, I don't know
>>if it is a good idea. The thought of euthanizing fish that we have
>>grown attached to is hard. I try to look at it like this. If you want
>>to get rid of the fish, you will never see it again anyway, so don't
>>take the chance of screwing up nature more than we already have. All of
>>this IMO.
>>
>>To Mr. Gardner's point about educated hunters/fishers. I too am amazed
>>at the wealth of knowledge available for these activites. The amount of
>>information on lobsters alone is amazing. I had no idea about the
>>notched femal lobster fins... pretty interesting stuff. and no,
>>lobsters were not what I was thinking when I said New England
>>biotope... although.... :)
>
> When you create your Northeast biotope, make sure the water is
> extremely acid and dump a few grams of mercury in, to make it
> authentic.
> -- Mister Gardener
> -- Pull the WEED to email me

Mr.G which part of your email is not real the email or toast?
I emailed my friend at the shop who breeds angels about the disease and i
was going to send you the email (just his experince, probably not anything
new that you did not all ready know.
Nik

[Mister Gardener]

On Thu, 4 May 2006 15:16:20 -0400, "Nikki"
> wrote:
I think I make it clear in my signature line. Pull the WEED.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Mister Gardener]

On Thu, 4 May 2006 14:10:42 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>Even if no one dumped unwanted pond fish in lakes and rivers there is
>nothing to stop the same kind of transfer you mentioned. With the number
>of ponds growing yearly this is bound to happen.

Sure there is. You can stop it by prohibiting ornamental ponds. As at
least one state has done.

I find it kind of amusing that one of the nuisance fish ruining many
of our natural waterways, the comet goldfish, was originally bred by
the US Department of Fish and Wildlife - whatever they call that
department. I haven't discovered yet why they created it . . . I'm
sure it seemed like a good idea at the time.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Nikki]

sorry looked at the ending of your email address not the begining
Nik

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 4 May 2006 15:16:20 -0400, "Nikki"
> > wrote:
> I think I make it clear in my signature line. Pull the WEED.
>
> -- Mister Gardener
> -- Pull the WEED to email me

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are TWO "Koi-Lo's" on this NG*

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 4 May 2006 14:10:42 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>
>>Even if no one dumped unwanted pond fish in lakes and rivers there is
>>nothing to stop the same kind of transfer you mentioned. With the number
>>of ponds growing yearly this is bound to happen.
>
> Sure there is. You can stop it by prohibiting ornamental ponds. As at
> least one state has done.

Prohibiting ornamental ponds or the keeping of GF and koi in said ponds? If
I pulled the fish and got rid of the nets I'd soon have a more natural pond
of turtles, frogs and whatever else lives in farm and natural small ponds
here. Surely that would be beneficial since so many are filled in by
builders.

> I find it kind of amusing that one of the nuisance fish ruining many
> of our natural waterways, the comet goldfish, was originally bred by
> the US Department of Fish and Wildlife - whatever they call that
> department. I haven't discovered yet why they created it . . . I'm
> sure it seemed like a good idea at the time.

That's all news to me! :-|
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[IDzine01]

>There is a mom and pop pet store in the nearby city with a nurse
>shark, about 2 feet long in a 55 gallon tank. The inspector has told
>them twice to get rid of it, but they are resisting him. They are
>telling him stuff like the shark is happy, it won't outgrow its
>environment, (now there's an urban legend for you), etc

There's a store in Mass too that has a nurse shark in a 55gal and they
can't get rid of it. The guy told me that it was ordered by someone and
because he didn't know better at the time he didn't get the guys
information. Long story short, they got stuck with it and can't find
anyone to take it. He said he's contacted public aquariums and private
keepers but noone can handle it.

It's a shame, LFSs fall for this because they can make a lot of money
off of one fish.

[Fred Oinka]

"I think the insinuation about Wal-Mart is that most aquarists feel
that
they are comprable to puppy mills in some ways."

I'm going to have to jump in here, and say that not all walmart fish
tanks are bad.
I care about my fish, and try to learn all I can to keep them as
healthy as possible.
Unfortunately there are a few reprobates that won't control their
malicious offspring and keep them out of the aquariums when we can't be
there, so we find gummy bears and God knows what in the tanks.

[Mister Gardener]

On 5 May 2006 13:21:42 -0700, "Fred Oinka" >
wrote:

>"I think the insinuation about Wal-Mart is that most aquarists feel
>that
>they are comprable to puppy mills in some ways."
>
>I'm going to have to jump in here, and say that not all walmart fish
>tanks are bad.
>I care about my fish, and try to learn all I can to keep them as
>healthy as possible.
>Unfortunately there are a few reprobates that won't control their
>malicious offspring and keep them out of the aquariums when we can't be
>there, so we find gummy bears and God knows what in the tanks.

I've never visited a Wal Mart Fish department, never viewed their
tanks. The gummy bears and stuff is something I hadn't thought about,
but I supposed it can happen anywhere that doesn't provide minute by
minute supervision of customers. I neither defend nor condemn big box
fish sellers, WalMart included. I think the quality of the fish
department is directly related to the quality of the employees, that's
an easy assumption, but employees working for minimum wage with
minimal benefits with minimum training are not all going to be as
dedicated as Ma or Pa at the Ma and Pa store. And I've seen some
deplorable practices at some Ma and Pa stores as well. Part of it is
luck, luck being finding people to work the fish departments who
really care, who know their stuff, or who are conscientious about
learning their stuff. I've met some very caring people in big box
stores, some who felt their hands were tied because they couldn't make
changes due to management rules, and some who wiggle around the rules
and provide good care regardless. My first into intro the pet industry
was when I worked first as a salesperson, later as a manager of a
Petco store.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Mister Gardener]

On Fri, 05 May 2006 16:38:27 -0400, Mister Gardener
> wrote:

>On 5 May 2006 13:21:42 -0700, "Fred Oinka" >
>wrote:
>
>>"I think the insinuation about Wal-Mart is that most aquarists feel
>>that
>>they are comprable to puppy mills in some ways."
>>
>>I'm going to have to jump in here, and say that not all walmart fish
>>tanks are bad.
>>I care about my fish, and try to learn all I can to keep them as
>>healthy as possible.
>>Unfortunately there are a few reprobates that won't control their
>>malicious offspring and keep them out of the aquariums when we can't be
>>there, so we find gummy bears and God knows what in the tanks.
>
>I've never visited a Wal Mart Fish department, never viewed their
>tanks. The gummy bears and stuff is something I hadn't thought about,
>but I supposed it can happen anywhere that doesn't provide minute by
>minute supervision of customers. I neither defend nor condemn big box
>fish sellers, WalMart included. I think the quality of the fish
>department is directly related to the quality of the employees, that's
>an easy assumption, but employees working for minimum wage with
>minimal benefits with minimum training are not all going to be as
>dedicated as Ma or Pa at the Ma and Pa store. And I've seen some
>deplorable practices at some Ma and Pa stores as well. Part of it is
>luck, luck being finding people to work the fish departments who
>really care, who know their stuff, or who are conscientious about
>learning their stuff. I've met some very caring people in big box
>stores, some who felt their hands were tied because they couldn't make
>changes due to management rules, and some who wiggle around the rules
>and provide good care regardless. My first into intro the pet industry
>was when I worked first as a salesperson, later as a manager of a
>Petco store.
>
>-- Mister Gardener
>-- Pull the WEED to email me

My first inro into, not into intro. Stupid spell checker. I should
know better than to trust it.
MG

[Gill Passman]

>
> My first inro into, not into intro. Stupid spell checker. I should
> know better than to trust it.
> MG

Well at least the spell checker got the words spelt right even if in the
wrong order :-)

Gill