Upgrading from 20 gal to 90 gal

[[email protected]]

I currently have eight small Angels (dime to quarter size) in a 20 gal
tank. I am growing them out in this tank for a few months before I
move them over to a 90 gal. The twenty has a Whisper #2 Power filter,
a UGF filter with 25 lbs of gravel, and about five small Amazon Sword
plants. The 90 gal is not currently set up but I have a Emporer 400
and a UGF with 100 lbs of gravel.

I am hoping to move the Whisper #2, the gravel, and the plants from the
20 into the 90 in order to do a non-cycling transfer. Will this work ?
I have heard that filtration is related more to fish load than tank
size. However, this seems like quite a jump.

I originally set up the 20 with a non-cycling transfer by running the
Whisper #2 on another tank for a few months before setting up the 20.

[Altum]

wrote:
> I currently have eight small Angels (dime to quarter size) in a 20 gal
> tank. I am growing them out in this tank for a few months before I
> move them over to a 90 gal. The twenty has a Whisper #2 Power filter,
> a UGF filter with 25 lbs of gravel, and about five small Amazon Sword
> plants. The 90 gal is not currently set up but I have a Emporer 400
> and a UGF with 100 lbs of gravel.
>
> I am hoping to move the Whisper #2, the gravel, and the plants from the
> 20 into the 90 in order to do a non-cycling transfer. Will this work ?
> I have heard that filtration is related more to fish load than tank
> size. However, this seems like quite a jump.
>
> I originally set up the 20 with a non-cycling transfer by running the
> Whisper #2 on another tank for a few months before setting up the 20.

It will work. I've gone from 10 gallons to 55. You may get a bit of a
cycle for a few days but nothing that will unduly stress the fish. Your
water will likely cloud since you're using new tap water but that
doesn't bother the fish.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

[Frank]

mcahill wrote,
>The 90 gal is not currently set up but I have a Emporer 400
>and a UGF with 100 lbs of gravel.....

Unless your using a RF (reverse flow) powerhead on the under gravel
filter ((UGF)(RFUGF)) I sure would think twice on using one. With it
set-up as a RF, at least the solid waste stays on top of the gravel
where it can be removed by your power filter or siphon. I set-up my
first two 90 gal. planted tanks with the RFUGF, went the extra on
lighting and CO2. The plants went nuts, roots cloged the UGF plates
within a couple of months causing hydrogen sulfide pockets within the
gravel - some plants started dying while other grew great, tanks
smelled like rotten eggs, that end of the house (where my wife made me
sleep)smelled like rotten eggs, and we had to eat out every meal. I was
going to go back to non-planted tanks, or the wife was eather going to
kill me, or move me and the tanks out of the house (she had already
called a couple of her friends - they didn't want me eather - I hope it
was the tanks they didn't want). To make a long story short, the UGF
came out of the tanks, they were replanted, a second bio-wheel power
filter was installed on each tank, the tanks, plants, and fish look
great and I'm sleeping back in the bedroom (even though the wife won't
feed the fish anymore or help with their maintenance). Beleave me,
after using UGF for over 30 years, you don't want to use them in a
planted tank with RF power heads, and you don't want to use them in a
non-planted tank without them being RF as DOCs build-up for to quickly.
Get your tank a second twin bio-wheel filter or canister and you might
not get kicked out of your house!

>I am hoping to move the Whisper #2, the gravel, and the plants from the
>20 into the 90 in order to do a non-cycling transfer. Will this work ?

It's not the tank or amount of water that's being cycled, it's the
filter. If you move the same bio-load along with it's filter, you
shouldn't get but mabe a small mini spike, due to the lack of the
bio-film on the new tanks glass, rocks, gravel, etc.

>I currently have eight small Angels (dime to quarter size) in a 20 gal
>tank. I am growing them out in this tank for a few months before I
>move them over to a 90 gal....

A few months! The quarter size ones should be moved within a few weeks
if they are in a 20 gal. long tank. And mabe another month if they are
in a 20 gal. high. ................... Frank

[Mister Gardener]

On 3 May 2006 17:05:50 -0700, "Frank" > wrote:

>mcahill wrote,
>>The 90 gal is not currently set up but I have a Emporer 400
>>and a UGF with 100 lbs of gravel.....
>
>Unless your using a RF (reverse flow) powerhead on the under gravel
>filter ((UGF)(RFUGF)) I sure would think twice on using one. With it
>set-up as a RF, at least the solid waste stays on top of the gravel
>where it can be removed by your power filter or siphon. I set-up my
>first two 90 gal. planted tanks with the RFUGF, went the extra on
>lighting and CO2. The plants went nuts, roots cloged the UGF plates
>within a couple of months causing hydrogen sulfide pockets within the
>gravel - some plants started dying while other grew great, tanks
>smelled like rotten eggs, that end of the house (where my wife made me
>sleep)smelled like rotten eggs, and we had to eat out every meal. I was
>going to go back to non-planted tanks, or the wife was eather going to
>kill me, or move me and the tanks out of the house (she had already
>called a couple of her friends - they didn't want me eather - I hope it
>was the tanks they didn't want). To make a long story short, the UGF
>came out of the tanks, they were replanted, a second bio-wheel power
>filter was installed on each tank, the tanks, plants, and fish look
>great and I'm sleeping back in the bedroom (even though the wife won't
>feed the fish anymore or help with their maintenance). Beleave me,
>after using UGF for over 30 years, you don't want to use them in a
>planted tank with RF power heads, and you don't want to use them in a
>non-planted tank without them being RF as DOCs build-up for to quickly.
>Get your tank a second twin bio-wheel filter or canister and you might
>not get kicked out of your house!
>
>>I am hoping to move the Whisper #2, the gravel, and the plants from the
>>20 into the 90 in order to do a non-cycling transfer. Will this work ?
>
>It's not the tank or amount of water that's being cycled, it's the
>filter. If you move the same bio-load along with it's filter, you
>shouldn't get but mabe a small mini spike, due to the lack of the
>bio-film on the new tanks glass, rocks, gravel, etc.
>
>>I currently have eight small Angels (dime to quarter size) in a 20 gal
>>tank. I am growing them out in this tank for a few months before I
>>move them over to a 90 gal....
>
>A few months! The quarter size ones should be moved within a few weeks
>if they are in a 20 gal. long tank. And mabe another month if they are
>in a 20 gal. high. ................... Frank

I used to employ an undergravel together with a power filter and
figured it doesn't get any better than this. Of course, the discovery
of RF UG did get better and so it goes. But there has been a long
standing, decades, debate over possible bad effects on fish,
especially those with fancy flowing fins, like angels and fancy
guppies, from undergravel filtration. As I got more into plants, I
moved away from UG filtration. Another hotly debated issue on some
fronts, plants and UG. But my most outstanding memory of undergravel
filters was the necessity of lifting them up and cleaning out the goop
every few months, or year, depending. That was one messy task. And I
never could avoid it, sooner or later, it was going to need the whole
tank overhaul. And to those who will immediately tell me about their
UG filtered tanks that have required no heavy maintenance for 15
years, I say more power to you.

Back to the original post - I will re-emphasis the urgency of moving
those young angels into the big tank soon. Very soon. And your Whisper
2 is an older model, the only difference between it and the newer is
the addition of the bio sponge. If you haven't already, Whisper sells
the sponge and frame to instantly upgrade your older model for less
than 3 dollars. A worthwhile purchase.


-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Mary Burns]

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On 3 May 2006 17:05:50 -0700, "Frank" > wrote:
>
>>mcahill wrote,
>>>The 90 gal is not currently set up but I have a Emporer 400
>>>and a UGF with 100 lbs of gravel.....
>>
>>Unless your using a RF (reverse flow) powerhead on the under gravel
>>filter ((UGF)(RFUGF)) I sure would think twice on using one. With it
>>set-up as a RF, at least the solid waste stays on top of the gravel
>>where it can be removed by your power filter or siphon. I set-up my
>>first two 90 gal. planted tanks with the RFUGF, went the extra on
>>lighting and CO2. The plants went nuts, roots cloged the UGF plates
>>within a couple of months causing hydrogen sulfide pockets within the
>>gravel - some plants started dying while other grew great, tanks
>>smelled like rotten eggs, that end of the house (where my wife made me
>>sleep)smelled like rotten eggs, and we had to eat out every meal. I was
>>going to go back to non-planted tanks, or the wife was eather going to
>>kill me, or move me and the tanks out of the house (she had already
>>called a couple of her friends - they didn't want me eather - I hope it
>>was the tanks they didn't want). To make a long story short, the UGF
>>came out of the tanks, they were replanted, a second bio-wheel power
>>filter was installed on each tank, the tanks, plants, and fish look
>>great and I'm sleeping back in the bedroom (even though the wife won't
>>feed the fish anymore or help with their maintenance). Beleave me,
>>after using UGF for over 30 years, you don't want to use them in a
>>planted tank with RF power heads, and you don't want to use them in a
>>non-planted tank without them being RF as DOCs build-up for to quickly.
>>Get your tank a second twin bio-wheel filter or canister and you might
>>not get kicked out of your house!
>>
>>>I am hoping to move the Whisper #2, the gravel, and the plants from the
>>>20 into the 90 in order to do a non-cycling transfer. Will this work ?
>>
>>It's not the tank or amount of water that's being cycled, it's the
>>filter. If you move the same bio-load along with it's filter, you
>>shouldn't get but mabe a small mini spike, due to the lack of the
>>bio-film on the new tanks glass, rocks, gravel, etc.
>>
>>>I currently have eight small Angels (dime to quarter size) in a 20 gal
>>>tank. I am growing them out in this tank for a few months before I
>>>move them over to a 90 gal....
>>
>>A few months! The quarter size ones should be moved within a few weeks
>>if they are in a 20 gal. long tank. And mabe another month if they are
>>in a 20 gal. high. ................... Frank
>
> I used to employ an undergravel together with a power filter and
> figured it doesn't get any better than this. Of course, the discovery
> of RF UG did get better and so it goes. But there has been a long
> standing, decades, debate over possible bad effects on fish,
> especially those with fancy flowing fins, like angels and fancy
> guppies, from undergravel filtration. As I got more into plants, I
> moved away from UG filtration. Another hotly debated issue on some
> fronts, plants and UG. But my most outstanding memory of undergravel
> filters was the necessity of lifting them up and cleaning out the goop
> every few months, or year, depending. That was one messy task. And I
> never could avoid it, sooner or later, it was going to need the whole
> tank overhaul. And to those who will immediately tell me about their
> UG filtered tanks that have required no heavy maintenance for 15
> years, I say more power to you.
>
> Back to the original post - I will re-emphasis the urgency of moving
> those young angels into the big tank soon. Very soon. And your Whisper
> 2 is an older model, the only difference between it and the newer is
> the addition of the bio sponge. If you haven't already, Whisper sells
> the sponge and frame to instantly upgrade your older model for less
> than 3 dollars. A worthwhile purchase.
>
>
> -- Mister Gardener
> -- Pull the WEED to email me


I agree with not using an UG for angels. I have recently removed it on one
of my angel tanks, where they were not doing as well as others without UG
filters, despite same food and water changes. Since, they have really grown
and no one is sick at all. I don't know why, but as they are thriving now,
it's all that matters. Most breeders use barebottom tanks for spawning and
growing out angels as the gravel stores stuff hostile to young angels. My
spawning pairs have a barebottom part where they always spawn in the same
place and just a small amount of gravel with live plants on the other side.
They look after the babies/wigglers on the bare side and always move them to
the planted area as they become free swimmers. The babies use the plants as
a safe place to explore and even try to hide from mum and dad, who try to
keep them all together!!! Mary

[[email protected]]

Mary Burns wrote:
> "Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 3 May 2006 17:05:50 -0700, "Frank" > wrote:
> >
> >>mcahill wrote,
> >>>The 90 gal is not currently set up but I have a Emporer 400
> >>>and a UGF with 100 lbs of gravel.....
> >>
> >>Unless your using a RF (reverse flow) powerhead on the under gravel
> >>filter ((UGF)(RFUGF)) I sure would think twice on using one. With it
> >>set-up as a RF, at least the solid waste stays on top of the gravel
> >>where it can be removed by your power filter or siphon. I set-up my
> >>first two 90 gal. planted tanks with the RFUGF, went the extra on
> >>lighting and CO2. The plants went nuts, roots cloged the UGF plates
> >>within a couple of months causing hydrogen sulfide pockets within the
> >>gravel - some plants started dying while other grew great, tanks
> >>smelled like rotten eggs, that end of the house (where my wife made me
> >>sleep)smelled like rotten eggs, and we had to eat out every meal. I was
> >>going to go back to non-planted tanks, or the wife was eather going to
> >>kill me, or move me and the tanks out of the house (she had already
> >>called a couple of her friends - they didn't want me eather - I hope it
> >>was the tanks they didn't want). To make a long story short, the UGF
> >>came out of the tanks, they were replanted, a second bio-wheel power
> >>filter was installed on each tank, the tanks, plants, and fish look
> >>great and I'm sleeping back in the bedroom (even though the wife won't
> >>feed the fish anymore or help with their maintenance). Beleave me,
> >>after using UGF for over 30 years, you don't want to use them in a
> >>planted tank with RF power heads, and you don't want to use them in a
> >>non-planted tank without them being RF as DOCs build-up for to quickly.
> >>Get your tank a second twin bio-wheel filter or canister and you might
> >>not get kicked out of your house!
> >>
> >>>I am hoping to move the Whisper #2, the gravel, and the plants from the
> >>>20 into the 90 in order to do a non-cycling transfer. Will this work ?
> >>
> >>It's not the tank or amount of water that's being cycled, it's the
> >>filter. If you move the same bio-load along with it's filter, you
> >>shouldn't get but mabe a small mini spike, due to the lack of the
> >>bio-film on the new tanks glass, rocks, gravel, etc.
> >>
> >>>I currently have eight small Angels (dime to quarter size) in a 20 gal
> >>>tank. I am growing them out in this tank for a few months before I
> >>>move them over to a 90 gal....
> >>
> >>A few months! The quarter size ones should be moved within a few weeks
> >>if they are in a 20 gal. long tank. And mabe another month if they are
> >>in a 20 gal. high. ................... Frank
> >
> > I used to employ an undergravel together with a power filter and
> > figured it doesn't get any better than this. Of course, the discovery
> > of RF UG did get better and so it goes. But there has been a long
> > standing, decades, debate over possible bad effects on fish,
> > especially those with fancy flowing fins, like angels and fancy
> > guppies, from undergravel filtration. As I got more into plants, I
> > moved away from UG filtration. Another hotly debated issue on some
> > fronts, plants and UG. But my most outstanding memory of undergravel
> > filters was the necessity of lifting them up and cleaning out the goop
> > every few months, or year, depending. That was one messy task. And I
> > never could avoid it, sooner or later, it was going to need the whole
> > tank overhaul. And to those who will immediately tell me about their
> > UG filtered tanks that have required no heavy maintenance for 15
> > years, I say more power to you.
> >
> > Back to the original post - I will re-emphasis the urgency of moving
> > those young angels into the big tank soon. Very soon. And your Whisper
> > 2 is an older model, the only difference between it and the newer is
> > the addition of the bio sponge. If you haven't already, Whisper sells
> > the sponge and frame to instantly upgrade your older model for less
> > than 3 dollars. A worthwhile purchase.
> >
> >
> > -- Mister Gardener
> > -- Pull the WEED to email me
>
>
> I agree with not using an UG for angels. I have recently removed it on one
> of my angel tanks, where they were not doing as well as others without UG
> filters, despite same food and water changes. Since, they have really grown
> and no one is sick at all. I don't know why, but as they are thriving now,
> it's all that matters. Most breeders use barebottom tanks for spawning and
> growing out angels as the gravel stores stuff hostile to young angels. My
> spawning pairs have a barebottom part where they always spawn in the same
> place and just a small amount of gravel with live plants on the other side.
> They look after the babies/wigglers on the bare side and always move them to
> the planted area as they become free swimmers. The babies use the plants as
> a safe place to explore and even try to hide from mum and dad, who try to
> keep them all together!!! Mary

Do you still use the powerheads for airiation ? Or, do you just employ
the power filters ?

[Frank]

Mary Burns wrote,
>I agree with not using an UG for angels. I have recently removed it on one
>of my angel tanks, where they were not doing as well as others without UG
>filters, despite same food and water changes. Since, they have really grown
>and no one is sick at all. I don't know why, but as they are thriving now.......

UGF pull the uneaten foods and solid fish waste down into the gravel
where it decomposes and slowly dissolves, becoming DOCs (dissolved
organic compounds - organic pollution). With UGFs, unlike any other
filters that are cleaned once in a while, these pollutants slowly
build-up and poison the tank. Meanwhile, this build-up of DOCs create
conditions that encourage disease, parasites and opportunistic bacteria
that remain within the tank, where as, with other filters these
conditions are in the filter and removed every once in a while. Now we
know those UGFs are out dated - they infact become the source of
organic pollution...
RF (reverse flow) UGFs are a different story. The waters flow pushes up
through the gravel, keeping the uneaten foods and solid fish waste atop
the gravel for a siphon or power filter to pick-up. In an unplanted
tank, a set-up like that would be hard to beat.

>My
>spawning pairs have a barebottom part where they always spawn in the same
>place and just a small amount of gravel with live plants on the other side......

My breeding tanks were all bare bottom with sponge or box filters - the
few plants I had were potted. However, my grow-out tanks all had UGF -
so did the first 3 stores we opened. The gravel size over the filter
plates were be at least 3/8" - 1/2" to 3/4" worked even better, and
once every couple of weeks, the under-side of the filter plates were
siphoned out by running the siphon hose down the lift tubes and under
the plates. A lot of work, but at least the water quality was kept good
that way, and we didn't have to break down the tanks once or twice a
year like Mister Gardener did.

>They look after the babies/wigglers on the bare side and always move them to
>the planted area as they become free swimmers.....

I always removed the eggs - that way the breeders would spawn once a
week or week and a half. My breeders were picked from the group at 2 or
3 weeks old - the largest of the spawn and fed 5 and 6 times a day.
They were raised in deep tanks with good water flow, 20% daily water
changes and at 5 gals. per fish. By the time they were pairing off,
they were almost twice the size of their brothers and sisters, as was
their spawn size..................... Frank

[Mister Gardener]

On 5 May 2006 07:22:32 -0700, wrote:
There are too many >>>'s so I'm not really sure who wrote what but
(Bottom posted)

>> I agree with not using an UG for angels. I have recently removed it on one
>> of my angel tanks, where they were not doing as well as others without UG
>> filters, despite same food and water changes. Since, they have really grown
>> and no one is sick at all. I don't know why, but as they are thriving now,
>> it's all that matters. Most breeders use barebottom tanks for spawning and
>> growing out angels as the gravel stores stuff hostile to young angels. My
>> spawning pairs have a barebottom part where they always spawn in the same
>> place and just a small amount of gravel with live plants on the other side.
>> They look after the babies/wigglers on the bare side and always move them to
>> the planted area as they become free swimmers. The babies use the plants as
>> a safe place to explore and even try to hide from mum and dad, who try to
>> keep them all together!!! Mary

What a dream setup you've got going there! Parents raising babies in a
bare tank for you - you've trained them very well.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Frank]

mcahill wrote,
>Do you still use the powerheads for airiation ? Or, do you just employ
>the power filters ?.............

Not sure what your asking here. RF power heads are used to push the
flow of water down the UGFs lift tube, so the waters flow is then up
through the gravel. This alone will move the waters surface and pick up
oxygen, as would power filters. With both, the surface movement would
be greater, thus more oxygen would be added to the water...
................ Frank

[[email protected]]

Frank wrote:
> mcahill wrote,
> >Do you still use the powerheads for airiation ? Or, do you just employ
> >the power filters ?.............
>
> Not sure what your asking here. RF power heads are used to push the
> flow of water down the UGFs lift tube, so the waters flow is then up
> through the gravel. This alone will move the waters surface and pick up
> oxygen, as would power filters. With both, the surface movement would
> be greater, thus more oxygen would be added to the water...
> ............... Frank

You seem to be suggesting that UGF/RUGF is a bad idea. I already have
the powerheads...I am asking how/if you suggest I use them.

[Mister Gardener]

On 5 May 2006 12:55:11 -0700, wrote:

>
>Frank wrote:
>> mcahill wrote,
>> >Do you still use the powerheads for airiation ? Or, do you just employ
>> >the power filters ?.............
>>
>> Not sure what your asking here. RF power heads are used to push the
>> flow of water down the UGFs lift tube, so the waters flow is then up
>> through the gravel. This alone will move the waters surface and pick up
>> oxygen, as would power filters. With both, the surface movement would
>> be greater, thus more oxygen would be added to the water...
>> ............... Frank
>
>You seem to be suggesting that UGF/RUGF is a bad idea. I already have
>the powerheads...I am asking how/if you suggest I use them.

Depending on the size of the powerheads . . . HOB power filters often
created less turbulence than powerheads . . . and less turbulence is
preferred for angelfish, who like to hang out in quiet waters.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

[Frank]

mcahill wrote,
>You seem to be suggesting that UGF/RUGF is a bad idea. I already have
>the powerheads...I am asking how/if you suggest I use them. ....

UGFs set-up to pull the water flow down through the gravel (power head
or not) is a *really* bad idea. RF power heads that push the waters
flow down the riser tube, under the filters plates and up through the
gravel (in non-planted tanks) would be hard to beat. Trouble is (around
this area) in the finding of RF power heads. ....................
Frank

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> I currently have eight small Angels (dime to quarter size) in a 20 gal
> tank. I am growing them out in this tank for a few months before I
> move them over to a 90 gal. The twenty has a Whisper #2 Power filter,
> a UGF filter with 25 lbs of gravel, and about five small Amazon Sword
> plants. The 90 gal is not currently set up but I have a Emporer 400
> and a UGF with 100 lbs of gravel.
>
> I am hoping to move the Whisper #2, the gravel, and the plants from the
> 20 into the 90 in order to do a non-cycling transfer. Will this work ?
> I have heard that filtration is related more to fish load than tank
> size. However, this seems like quite a jump.
>
> I originally set up the 20 with a non-cycling transfer by running the
> Whisper #2 on another tank for a few months before setting up the 20.

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I thought I'd let you know how
things are going. I got the sponge insert for the 20. The angels are
thriving and growing. The electric work has been done so that I can
set up the 90 (I needed a new outlet). The angels will go into the 90
within the week.

I got reverse flow kits for the 90. I'll be running an RUGF without
live plants. I do intend to get some artificial plants...but those
won't cause problems with root growth in the RUGF. Plus I will save in
terms of not needing to do a lighting upgrade to support live plants.