Red growth [Archive] - FishKeepingBanter.com

Dick

May 6th 06, 11:19 AM

On 5 May 2006 15:19:20 -0700, "Frank" > wrote:

>Dick wrote,
>>I have curious growths in my 75 gallon tank....
>>Any one know what they are? ..........
>
>Likely red beard algae, due to high nitrAtes and pH levels.
>
>>Do they pose a threat? ........
>
>The beard algae doesn't, but it's cause does. Sounds like your not
>doing enough water changes and gravel vacs. If it a planted tank, at
>least 20% weekly water changes should be done. In non-planted tanks,
>two 20% weekly water changes should be done................... Frank

These appear to be single cells and lay flat to the glass.

The ph is 7.8, I do two 20% water changes weekly. The tank has heavy
low light plant growth, no CO2. The tank has been running for 3 1/2
years and I have 4 other tanks that are similar except they are 29 and
10 gallon compared to the 75. The red "things" do not appear in any
other tanks.

I find it especially strange that the growths do not appear along the
front of the tank. I can't see any difference with the two ends.

What ever they are their growth is slow and none have exceeded a 14
inch diameter nor have they grown in height, no branches, just flat
circular bodies.

dick

Frank

May 6th 06, 09:37 PM

Dick wrote,
>The ph is 7.8, I do two 20% water changes weekly. The tank has heavy
>low light plant growth, no CO2.....

Sure wouldn't be high nitrAtes.

>These appear to be single cells and lay flat to the glass....

I have seen diatoms rust color instead of brown. With two 20% weekly
water changes, they just might be diatoms - due to the excess silicate
and silicic acid in the tap water. You might want to try something like
Aquarium Pharmaceuticals 'Algae Destroyer', but for a few spots, I
wouldn't. A friend breeds bettas and guppys - uses bare tanks and used
to have diatoms all over the place. He now fills a 30 gal. plastic
trash can through a couple of cups of carbon, then pumps his change
water from there - no diatoms.

>I find it especially strange that the growths do not appear along the
>front of the tank. I can't see any difference with the two ends....

Mabe a light difference. Tanks been up and running for that long, what
ever it is, it isn't harmfull. What I find strange is that they don't
grow in the other tanks. When my friend comes by Mon. to take care of
my planted tanks, I'll ask her what she thinks it might be - when it
comes to plants and algaes, she is really sharp................ Frank
...................... Frank

Dick

May 7th 06, 10:24 AM

On 6 May 2006 13:37:05 -0700, "Frank" > wrote:

>Dick wrote,
>>The ph is 7.8, I do two 20% water changes weekly. The tank has heavy
>>low light plant growth, no CO2.....
>
>Sure wouldn't be high nitrAtes.
>
>>These appear to be single cells and lay flat to the glass....
>
>I have seen diatoms rust color instead of brown. With two 20% weekly
>water changes, they just might be diatoms - due to the excess silicate
>and silicic acid in the tap water. You might want to try something like
>Aquarium Pharmaceuticals 'Algae Destroyer', but for a few spots, I
>wouldn't. A friend breeds bettas and guppys - uses bare tanks and used
>to have diatoms all over the place. He now fills a 30 gal. plastic
>trash can through a couple of cups of carbon, then pumps his change
>water from there - no diatoms.
>
>>I find it especially strange that the growths do not appear along the
>>front of the tank. I can't see any difference with the two ends....
>
>Mabe a light difference. Tanks been up and running for that long, what
>ever it is, it isn't harmfull. What I find strange is that they don't
>grow in the other tanks. When my friend comes by Mon. to take care of
>my planted tanks, I'll ask her what she thinks it might be - when it
>comes to plants and algaes, she is really sharp................ Frank
>..................... Frank

The word Diatom flashed through my mind also, but I don't really know
what they are.

Not appearing in the other tanks when they are similar environments
and all of the tanks have shared fish over the years, is part of the
mystery. You also mention another mystery, why only on the ends?

I see nothing to worry about, but find the growths,, shall I say
"mysterious?"

dick

Dick

May 7th 06, 12:21 PM

On 6 May 2006 13:37:05 -0700, "Frank" > wrote:

>Dick wrote,
>>The ph is 7.8, I do two 20% water changes weekly. The tank has heavy
>>low light plant growth, no CO2.....
>
>Sure wouldn't be high nitrAtes.
>
>>These appear to be single cells and lay flat to the glass....
>
>I have seen diatoms rust color instead of brown. With two 20% weekly
>water changes, they just might be diatoms - due to the excess silicate
>and silicic acid in the tap water. You might want to try something like
>Aquarium Pharmaceuticals 'Algae Destroyer', but for a few spots, I
>wouldn't. A friend breeds bettas and guppys - uses bare tanks and used
>to have diatoms all over the place. He now fills a 30 gal. plastic
>trash can through a couple of cups of carbon, then pumps his change
>water from there - no diatoms.
>
>>I find it especially strange that the growths do not appear along the
>>front of the tank. I can't see any difference with the two ends....
>
>Mabe a light difference. Tanks been up and running for that long, what
>ever it is, it isn't harmfull. What I find strange is that they don't
>grow in the other tanks. When my friend comes by Mon. to take care of
>my planted tanks, I'll ask her what she thinks it might be - when it
>comes to plants and algaes, she is really sharp................ Frank
>..................... Frank

I just read a little on Diatoms and looked at some pictures of a few.
Certainly seem possible. I have never seen an individual move nor
divide, but they obviously multiply.

http://hjs.geol.uib.no/diatoms/Marbles/index.html-ssi

I have Siamese Algae Eaters and Clown Loaches in the tank, but they
show no interest.

dick

Koi-Lo

May 7th 06, 03:37 PM

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>
> I have Siamese Algae Eaters and Clown Loaches in the tank, but they
> show no interest.
=======================
When I started to use Excel and other plant supplements (after vacuuming the
gravel to death) I also added a regular pleco, a clown pleco (my clown
loaches never ate algae) and a few otos the algae disappeared. The Excel
alone didn't do it. But now I see some black beard algae appearing that non
of them eat..... bleah! :þ
--
Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Aquarium FAQ are at:
http://faq.thekrib.com/
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Mister Gardener

May 7th 06, 05:11 PM

On Sun, 7 May 2006 09:37:41 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> I have Siamese Algae Eaters and Clown Loaches in the tank, but they
>> show no interest.
>=======================
>When I started to use Excel and other plant supplements (after vacuuming the
>gravel to death) I also added a regular pleco, a clown pleco (my clown
>loaches never ate algae) and a few otos the algae disappeared. The Excel
>alone didn't do it. But now I see some black beard algae appearing that non
>of them eat..... bleah! :þ

When I had a stripe of beard algae the length of my tank, I first
began using Excel. After a couple of weeks of no change, I climbed
into the tank with a sharp pair of scissors and pruned every leaf that
showed any signs of the beard algae all the way back to the axils.
With the Vallisnaria type plants, I simply gave them a hair cut,
chopping off just half leaves. I didn't know if this would kill the
leaf, or stimulate the leaf - it did neither, the leaves didn't die
and they continued to grow at the same rate as the other plants. I had
quite a pile of cuttings scattered about the living room floor - when
I'm pruning I don't look behind me, I just toss and hope someone will
pick it up later. I eliminated the streak of direct sunlight that was
crossing my tank for about 2 hours each afternoon and I haven't seen a
sign of beard algae since. Just great, luscious plant growth. 3 of my
sword plants are sending off baby plants with many roots like crazy.
I'm anchoring as many as I have room for, they are taking hold and
growing terrific. Same with the crypts and vals. Maybe two weeks
wasn't long enough for me to wait for the Excel to do it's beard algae
killing, but I know there was no new algae after I began using it, and
there were bound to be plenty of algae spores remaining in the tank
looking for a place to anchor and multiply.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Frank

May 7th 06, 06:12 PM

Dick wrote,
>You also mention another mystery, why only on the ends? ....

Less light mabe (?) If they were just below the gravel line, I would
suspect blue-green slime algae (comes in many different colors). I have
a planted tank that always has a few spots (below the gravel line) of
the stuff.

>The word Diatom flashed through my mind also, but I don't really know
>what they are...

Little thin spots of brown algae that show up mostly with newly set-up
tanks. My discus breeder tank always had these 'diatoms' on the glass
because of the 80% daily water changes................. Frank

Koi-Lo

May 7th 06, 10:26 PM

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
\>
> When I had a stripe of beard algae the length of my tank, I first
> began using Excel. After a couple of weeks of no change, I climbed
> into the tank with a sharp pair of scissors and pruned every leaf that
> showed any signs of the beard algae all the way back to the axils.
> With the Vallisnaria type plants, I simply gave them a hair cut,
> chopping off just half leaves. I didn't know if this would kill the
> leaf, or stimulate the leaf - it did neither, the leaves didn't die
> and they continued to grow at the same rate as the other plants. I had
> quite a pile of cuttings scattered about the living room floor - when
> I'm pruning I don't look behind me, I just toss and hope someone will
> pick it up later. I eliminated the streak of direct sunlight that was
> crossing my tank for about 2 hours each afternoon and I haven't seen a
> sign of beard algae since. Just great, luscious plant growth. 3 of my
> sword plants are sending off baby plants with many roots like crazy.
> I'm anchoring as many as I have room for, they are taking hold and
> growing terrific. Same with the crypts and vals. Maybe two weeks
> wasn't long enough for me to wait for the Excel to do it's beard algae
> killing, but I know there was no new algae after I began using it, and
> there were bound to be plenty of algae spores remaining in the tank
> looking for a place to anchor and multiply.
======================================
The Excel had no effect on the algae in my tanks after a few weeks. That's
why I bought the algae eaters. At first the plants really perked up and I
saw a lot of new growth. Now they've slumped and are not growing as before.
Maybe they become immune to the effects of Excel after awhile. I added more
trace elements but that has had no effect either. One 10g tank has that
nasty looking black soot algae again, and the oto doesn't eat it. It's so
bad that from a distance the gravel looks black and as before the Excel it's
spreading to the plants........ *sigh*

Trimming vals doesn't seem to harm them much. If I tossed trimmings over my
shoulder and waited for someone to pick them up they'd turn to compost right
there. These tanks don't get any sun.
--
Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Mister Gardener

May 7th 06, 11:04 PM

On Sun, 7 May 2006 16:26:42 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>\>
>> When I had a stripe of beard algae the length of my tank, I first
>> began using Excel. After a couple of weeks of no change, I climbed
>> into the tank with a sharp pair of scissors and pruned every leaf that
>> showed any signs of the beard algae all the way back to the axils.
>> With the Vallisnaria type plants, I simply gave them a hair cut,
>> chopping off just half leaves. I didn't know if this would kill the
>> leaf, or stimulate the leaf - it did neither, the leaves didn't die
>> and they continued to grow at the same rate as the other plants. I had
>> quite a pile of cuttings scattered about the living room floor - when
>> I'm pruning I don't look behind me, I just toss and hope someone will
>> pick it up later. I eliminated the streak of direct sunlight that was
>> crossing my tank for about 2 hours each afternoon and I haven't seen a
>> sign of beard algae since. Just great, luscious plant growth. 3 of my
>> sword plants are sending off baby plants with many roots like crazy.
>> I'm anchoring as many as I have room for, they are taking hold and
>> growing terrific. Same with the crypts and vals. Maybe two weeks
>> wasn't long enough for me to wait for the Excel to do it's beard algae
>> killing, but I know there was no new algae after I began using it, and
>> there were bound to be plenty of algae spores remaining in the tank
>> looking for a place to anchor and multiply.
>======================================
>The Excel had no effect on the algae in my tanks after a few weeks. That's
>why I bought the algae eaters. At first the plants really perked up and I
>saw a lot of new growth. Now they've slumped and are not growing as before.
>Maybe they become immune to the effects of Excel after awhile. I added more
>trace elements but that has had no effect either. One 10g tank has that
>nasty looking black soot algae again, and the oto doesn't eat it. It's so
>bad that from a distance the gravel looks black and as before the Excel it's
>spreading to the plants........ *sigh*
>
>Trimming vals doesn't seem to harm them much. If I tossed trimmings over my
>shoulder and waited for someone to pick them up they'd turn to compost right
>there. These tanks don't get any sun.

Excel alone may not provide all your plants need. Excel "assumes" your
plants are getting their NPK from the substrate wasted fish food dead
plant material, etc. I am developing a much lighter touch with the
gravel vacuum, in fact the plants are becoming so dense in that tank
that there are very few areas where I can actually jab the vacuum into
the gravel. I have been using the Excel every other day and Flourish 2
or 3 times a week for Iron and Potassium and some trace elements. I'm
beginning to switch over to API Leaf Zone which is simply Iron and
Potassium and is dosed weekly. It's in a bigger bottle and it's
cheaper and the label amounts of Fe and K are close enough. My
nitrates always measure zero, so it looks like my plants are taking
all that the tank is producing for now. I've been hanging out at Tom
Barr's site and am thinking about his methods, but at this time, I
have all the plant growth and density that I can handle.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Koi-Lo

May 8th 06, 02:46 AM

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>
> Excel alone may not provide all your plants need. Excel "assumes" your
> plants are getting their NPK from the substrate wasted fish food dead
> plant material, etc.

I'm also using the Seachem trace elements and the Iron. They all seem to
have lost their effect.

I am developing a much lighter touch with the
> gravel vacuum, in fact the plants are becoming so dense in that tank
> that there are very few areas where I can actually jab the vacuum into
> the gravel.

This is my problem also. I had to remove several large clumps of val to the
outside ponds to give the fish more room to swim. Plus the roots are
everywhere through the gravel. I can't dig the vac in as before without
tearing up roots now.

I have been using the Excel every other day and Flourish 2
> or 3 times a week for Iron and Potassium and some trace elements. I'm
> beginning to switch over to API Leaf Zone which is simply Iron and
> Potassium and is dosed weekly.

I'm following a similar routine but this can get expensive with two 55s of
plants plus four 10g planted tanks. I'm giving them the Flourish trace
elements only twice a week because of cost and how it stimulated the vals
and elodia (pondweed) to grow too rapidly. I may remove them altogether.

It's in a bigger bottle and it's
> cheaper and the label amounts of Fe and K are close enough. My
> nitrates always measure zero, so it looks like my plants are taking
> all that the tank is producing for now. I've been hanging out at Tom
> Barr's site and am thinking about his methods, but at this time, I
> have all the plant growth and density that I can handle.
>
>
> -- Mister Gardener
> -- Pull the WEED to email me
--
Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Frank

May 8th 06, 03:55 AM

Mister Gardener wrote,
>My nitrates always measure zero, so it looks like my plants
>are taking all that the tank is producing for now.......

Hmmm - my nitrAtes come out of the tap between 10 and 20ppm and about
once a month the gal that takes care of my planted tanks has to add
nitrAtes, otherwise, like in Koi Lo's tank, the plants seem to stop
growing.................Frank

Altum

May 8th 06, 04:49 AM

Koi-Lo wrote:

> The Excel had no effect on the algae in my tanks after a few weeks.
> That's why I bought the algae eaters. At first the plants really perked
> up and I saw a lot of new growth. Now they've slumped and are not
> growing as before. Maybe they become immune to the effects of Excel
> after awhile. I added more trace elements but that has had no effect
> either. One 10g tank has that nasty looking black soot algae again, and
> the oto doesn't eat it. It's so bad that from a distance the gravel
> looks black and as before the Excel it's spreading to the
> plants........ *sigh*
>
> Trimming vals doesn't seem to harm them much. If I tossed trimmings
> over my shoulder and waited for someone to pick them up they'd turn to
> compost right there. These tanks don't get any sun.

What are your nitrate and phosphate readings? Plants use incredible
amounts of nitrate when you add Excel. You want 5 ppm of nitrate at a
bare minimum - 10 is better. My heavily stocked tanks usually have
enough phosphate but not nitrate.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

Dick

May 8th 06, 10:28 AM

On 7 May 2006 10:12:57 -0700, "Frank" > wrote:

>Dick wrote,
>>You also mention another mystery, why only on the ends? ....
>
>Less light mabe (?) If they were just below the gravel line, I would
>suspect blue-green slime algae (comes in many different colors). I have
>a planted tank that always has a few spots (below the gravel line) of
>the stuff.
>
>>The word Diatom flashed through my mind also, but I don't really know
>>what they are...
>
>Little thin spots of brown algae that show up mostly with newly set-up
>tanks. My discus breeder tank always had these 'diatoms' on the glass
>because of the 80% daily water changes................. Frank

Actually, one end is near my reading lamp thus gets more light than
the other end or the front. Anyway, I think I can safely call these
spots Diatoms instead of "Red growth." <g>

Life is so full of "mysteries" that will forever remain that way. I
was traveling with a cousin and we kept count of the mysterious events
or objects along the way instead of looking for license plates.

dick

Mister Gardener

May 8th 06, 01:39 PM

On 7 May 2006 19:55:46 -0700, "Frank" > wrote:

>Mister Gardener wrote,
>>My nitrates always measure zero, so it looks like my plants
>>are taking all that the tank is producing for now.......
>
>Hmmm - my nitrAtes come out of the tap between 10 and 20ppm and about
>once a month the gal that takes care of my planted tanks has to add
>nitrAtes, otherwise, like in Koi Lo's tank, the plants seem to stop
>growing.................Frank

Koi Lo didn't mention potassium in her brew - it's an important
nutrient that is commonly insufficient in gardens and aquariums, from
what I've read. Holes in leaves and weak stems can be due to a
potassium deficiency, I got some holes in my leaves, more than just
snail damage, that's when I began adding the Iron and K mix, and no
more holey leaves. When I mentioned that I've gotten a lighter touch
with gravel vacuuming, I didn't mean that it's because the plants are
too dense, I meant that I am deliberately allowing some waste to
remain in the gravel, especially near the plants, that waste being the
chief provider of Nitrogen. Right now I seem to have the perfect
balance of nutrients, light, and CO2 . . . but we know how rapidly
conditions in a box of water can change overnight.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Mister Gardener

May 8th 06, 01:42 PM

On Mon, 08 May 2006 03:49:34 GMT, Altum >
wrote:

>Koi-Lo wrote:
>
>> The Excel had no effect on the algae in my tanks after a few weeks.
>> That's why I bought the algae eaters. At first the plants really perked
>> up and I saw a lot of new growth. Now they've slumped and are not
>> growing as before. Maybe they become immune to the effects of Excel
>> after awhile. I added more trace elements but that has had no effect
>> either. One 10g tank has that nasty looking black soot algae again, and
>> the oto doesn't eat it. It's so bad that from a distance the gravel
>> looks black and as before the Excel it's spreading to the
>> plants........ *sigh*
>>
>> Trimming vals doesn't seem to harm them much. If I tossed trimmings
>> over my shoulder and waited for someone to pick them up they'd turn to
>> compost right there. These tanks don't get any sun.
>
>What are your nitrate and phosphate readings? Plants use incredible
>amounts of nitrate when you add Excel. You want 5 ppm of nitrate at a
>bare minimum - 10 is better. My heavily stocked tanks usually have
>enough phosphate but not nitrate.

My nitrates are almost always zero to 5 ppm. I've never measured my
phosphorus. No signs of phosphorus deficiency, so I'm guessing the
plants are getting what they need from the organic breakdown in the
substrate, along with the nitrogen.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Koi-Lo

May 8th 06, 03:58 PM

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> Koi Lo didn't mention potassium in her brew - it's an important
> nutrient that is commonly insufficient in gardens and aquariums, from
> what I've read.

I assumed all these expensive Seachem plant foods contained it that I'm
adding to the water. Apparently not then. I can add it from the bags I buy
for my houseplants. I do that with my ponds several times over the summer.

Holes in leaves and weak stems can be due to a
> potassium deficiency, I got some holes in my leaves, more than just
> snail damage, that's when I began adding the Iron and K mix, and no
> more holey leaves.

I didn't see Iron with K. I'm using the straight iron.

When I mentioned that I've gotten a lighter touch
> with gravel vacuuming, I didn't mean that it's because the plants are
> too dense, I meant that I am deliberately allowing some waste to
> remain in the gravel, especially near the plants, that waste being the
> chief provider of Nitrogen.

I have no choice as I can no longer remove all the mulm without harming all
the roots running through the gravel.

Right now I seem to have the perfect
> balance of nutrients, light, and CO2 . . . but we know how rapidly
> conditions in a box of water can change overnight.
>
> -- Mister Gardener
> -- Pull the WEED to email me
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Koi-Lo

May 8th 06, 04:06 PM

"Altum" > wrote in message
om...
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>>
>> Trimming vals doesn't seem to harm them much. If I tossed trimmings over
>> my shoulder and waited for someone to pick them up they'd turn to compost
>> right there. These tanks don't get any sun.
===========================
> What are your nitrate and phosphate readings?

Nitrates stay in the 20 ppm range as they come from the tap. I don't have a
phosphate kit.

Plants use incredible
> amounts of nitrate when you add Excel. You want 5 ppm of nitrate at a
> bare minimum - 10 is better. My heavily stocked tanks usually have enough
> phosphate but not nitrate.

Potassium may be the missing element. I looked at all the overpriced
aquarium fertilizers I bought and see no mention of it. Where do they think
the aquarist would be getting it from? Grrrrrrrrrrrrr >:-(
I'm going to add some of the K I buy for the ponds and garden. I'll report
back the results in a week or so.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Mister Gardener

May 8th 06, 05:30 PM

On Mon, 8 May 2006 09:58:55 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> Koi Lo didn't mention potassium in her brew - it's an important
>> nutrient that is commonly insufficient in gardens and aquariums, from
>> what I've read.
>
>I assumed all these expensive Seachem plant foods contained it that I'm
>adding to the water. Apparently not then. I can add it from the bags I buy
>for my houseplants. I do that with my ponds several times over the summer.
>
>Holes in leaves and weak stems can be due to a
>> potassium deficiency, I got some holes in my leaves, more than just
>> snail damage, that's when I began adding the Iron and K mix, and no
>> more holey leaves.
>
>I didn't see Iron with K. I'm using the straight iron.

Read labels. I don't use all of the Seachem products, just Excel and
the plain flourish, which is a pretty ordinary balanced fertilizer, it
doesn't really make up for big deficiencies in one particular
nutrient. That's why Seachem sells all the special bottles, Nitrogen,
Potassium, etc. I think I said somewhere in there that I have begun
using API's Leaf Zone, which contains Iron and Potassium only. Exactly
what I want. I don't know what is in the bags you buy for your
houseplants, but they are likely to be high in nitrogen and phosphorus
and low in potassium, as most general plant fertilizers are. And you
don't want the extra N and P in your tank. Read labels and learn what
they mean.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Altum

May 8th 06, 08:45 PM

Koi-Lo wrote:
>
> "Altum" > wrote in message
> om...
>> Koi-Lo wrote:
>>>
>>> Trimming vals doesn't seem to harm them much. If I tossed trimmings
>>> over my shoulder and waited for someone to pick them up they'd turn
>>> to compost right there. These tanks don't get any sun.
> ===========================
>> What are your nitrate and phosphate readings?
>
> Nitrates stay in the 20 ppm range as they come from the tap. I don't
> have a phosphate kit.
>
> Plants use incredible
>> amounts of nitrate when you add Excel. You want 5 ppm of nitrate at a
>> bare minimum - 10 is better. My heavily stocked tanks usually have
>> enough phosphate but not nitrate.
>
> Potassium may be the missing element. I looked at all the overpriced
> aquarium fertilizers I bought and see no mention of it. Where do they
> think the aquarist would be getting it from? Grrrrrrrrrrrrr >:-(
> I'm going to add some of the K I buy for the ponds and garden. I'll
> report back the results in a week or so.

20 nitrate from the tap? Yuck. That will sure do the trick for your
plants though. I just assumed you were adding potash to the tanks since
you advised me to add it to my pond a while back for my pickerel. :-)
Darned thing still isn't growing. I'm about ready to give up on it and
get an iris instead.

As Mr. G said, potash deficiency causes actual pinholes in the leaves.
If there are no holes but plants are growing slowly, you might want to
consider a touch of phosphate. Oh - fast-growing plants sometimes need
calcium and magnesium beyond what comes from your tap water too.
Magnesium in particular tends to run short and you dose with epsoms to
add it back.

Rather than typing forever, here's a pretty good table of plant
nutrients and deficiencies. This whole site is very good.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

Mister Gardener

May 8th 06, 09:29 PM

On Mon, 08 May 2006 19:45:23 GMT, Altum >
wrote:

>Koi-Lo wrote:
>>
>> "Altum" > wrote in message
>> om...
>>> Koi-Lo wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Trimming vals doesn't seem to harm them much. If I tossed trimmings
>>>> over my shoulder and waited for someone to pick them up they'd turn
>>>> to compost right there. These tanks don't get any sun.
>> ===========================
>>> What are your nitrate and phosphate readings?
>>
>> Nitrates stay in the 20 ppm range as they come from the tap. I don't
>> have a phosphate kit.
>>
>> Plants use incredible
>>> amounts of nitrate when you add Excel. You want 5 ppm of nitrate at a
>>> bare minimum - 10 is better. My heavily stocked tanks usually have
>>> enough phosphate but not nitrate.
>>
>> Potassium may be the missing element. I looked at all the overpriced
>> aquarium fertilizers I bought and see no mention of it. Where do they
>> think the aquarist would be getting it from? Grrrrrrrrrrrrr >:-(
>> I'm going to add some of the K I buy for the ponds and garden. I'll
>> report back the results in a week or so.
>
>20 nitrate from the tap? Yuck. That will sure do the trick for your
>plants though. I just assumed you were adding potash to the tanks since
>you advised me to add it to my pond a while back for my pickerel. :-)
>Darned thing still isn't growing. I'm about ready to give up on it and
>get an iris instead.
>
>As Mr. G said, potash deficiency causes actual pinholes in the leaves.
>If there are no holes but plants are growing slowly, you might want to
>consider a touch of phosphate. Oh - fast-growing plants sometimes need
>calcium and magnesium beyond what comes from your tap water too.
>Magnesium in particular tends to run short and you dose with epsoms to
>add it back.
>
>Rather than typing forever, here's a pretty good table of plant
>nutrients and deficiencies. This whole site is very good.
>http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm

Good quick reference. After spending most of my life digging in dirt
and building garden soil, I've read a lot about and measured a lot of
nutrients. (Nitrogen for green and leafy - phosphorus for roots and
fruits - potassium for structural veins and stems - NPK in a
nutshell). Potassium is the least understood by most gardeners,
including myself. I add it through wood ash, which is high in K and
also acts like lime for sweetening an acid soil. Since I heat my home
with wood, there's plenty buckets of ash in the spring. Too bad you
can't just sprinkle it on your ponds. There is a real danger in adding
too many extra nutrients, and most people should have perfectly fine
growth from the all around mix for general purposes that every company
sells. There must be an equivalent pre-bagged mix for pond gardening.
The biggest lesson I've learned in terrestrial gardening as well as
fishkeeping as well as human health care is "don't fiddle with it
until you're really sure it needs fiddling." (I believe this warning
is a hangover from childhood and the admonition from Oreo Cookies -
"don't fiddle with the middle", which I find quite Freudian.) Nature's
creations have a lot of built in growth mechanisms as well as a lot of
acquired immunity and if we give nature a chance to balance things out
herself, we can often save ourselves a lot of grief. Each time I
approach my tank prepared to reach inside and do something to it or
add a solution to it, I tell me self "hands off". Stop. Think. Am I
about to do this for the tank or for myself. In the past, when
visitors asked me what I do to keep such beautiful aquariums, I answer
"nothing". I was a bit taken aback when I first read the descriptions
of all the Flourish solutions and wondered who would ever pour all
that stuff in their tanks - what a mess it would create - but the
answer to that of course is, someone with the money to afford it and
the need to feel they are helping by doing something, anything, to
help their plants or fish. I suppose someone with a really strong
education in plant biology might be able to use these supplements
effectively, but there aren't a whole lot of Amanos among us. Back to
my discovery that potassium helped my plants, I arrived there by pure
luck - I happened to read that tiny holes could point to potassium,
and I noticed the premiere plant product from one company was pure
potassium and iron. Knowing a little iron would be good, I tried it,
and I got it right with the potassium. I could well have crashed my
tank, as I did a couple of months ago by messing with fertilizers and
not watching my water parameters. My ultimate goal is to have as few
bottles of stuff on the shelf as possible, and do the minimum amount
of dosing needed, and to that end, I am getting somewhere. My current
plant routine is Excel every other day and Leaf Zone once a week. Now
how easy is that. I must also give due credit for my new lush plant
growth to the 130 watt compact fluorescent fixture over my tank. I've
never done more than the standard two 40 watt bulbs. These CFs really
make a difference - I can't imagine the jungle I would grow if I had
purchased the double instead of the single strip.

I just finished reading an article in TFH about Tom Barr's expedition
into the Florida swamps that got curtailed by hurricane season coming
too close and have been waiting for him to step into this thread - I
know you're out their Tom . . .

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Koi-Lo

May 9th 06, 12:00 AM

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 8 May 2006 09:58:55 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>>> Koi Lo didn't mention potassium in her brew - it's an important
>>> nutrient that is commonly insufficient in gardens and aquariums, from
>>> what I've read.
>>
>>I assumed all these expensive Seachem plant foods contained it that I'm
>>adding to the water. Apparently not then. I can add it from the bags I
>>buy
>>for my houseplants. I do that with my ponds several times over the
>>summer.
>>
>>Holes in leaves and weak stems can be due to a
>>> potassium deficiency, I got some holes in my leaves, more than just
>>> snail damage, that's when I began adding the Iron and K mix, and no
>>> more holey leaves.
>>
>>I didn't see Iron with K. I'm using the straight iron.
>
> Read labels. I don't use all of the Seachem products, just Excel and
> the plain flourish, which is a pretty ordinary balanced fertilizer, it
> doesn't really make up for big deficiencies in one particular
> nutrient. That's why Seachem sells all the special bottles, Nitrogen,
> Potassium, etc. I think I said somewhere in there that I have begun
> using API's Leaf Zone, which contains Iron and Potassium only. Exactly
> what I want. I don't know what is in the bags you buy for your
> houseplants, but they are likely to be high in nitrogen and phosphorus
> and low in potassium,

I buy fertilizers as NPK and also separately in bags. Muriate of Potash is
one of them.

as most general plant fertilizers are. And you
> don't want the extra N and P in your tank. Read labels and learn what
> they mean.

I know what they all mean since I've been gardening for many, many years.
;-) I assumed the Flourish contained Potassium. It doesn't.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Koi-Lo

May 9th 06, 12:12 AM

"Altum" > wrote in message
. com...
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>> Nitrates stay in the 20 ppm range as they come from the tap. I don't
>> have a phosphate kit.
=========================
> 20 nitrate from the tap? Yuck. That will sure do the trick for your
> plants though. I just assumed you were adding potash to the tanks since
> you advised me to add it to my pond a while back for my pickerel. :-)

I was adding very little to my tanks. I stopped when I started to use
Flourish, wrongly assuming it contained everything except nitrogen and
phosphorus.

> Darned thing still isn't growing. I'm about ready to give up on it and
> get an iris instead.

Pickerel isn't growing???? Holly Moley!!!! It's grows like mad here for me
and has blue blooms in summer.

> As Mr. G said, potash deficiency causes actual pinholes in the leaves. If
> there are no holes but plants are growing slowly, you might want to
> consider a touch of phosphate. Oh - fast-growing plants sometimes need
> calcium and magnesium beyond what comes from your tap water too.

I add magnesium separately (Epsom salt). Our water is very hard from
calcium so I don't add any. I'm betting the potassium is the culprit. I
just added some to each tank. I have no idea how much to add since it's
meant for gardens, not tanks or ponds. I add 1 Tbs. per 1000g of pond
water.

> Magnesium in particular tends to run short and you dose with epsoms to add
> it back.

Yep, I always have it on hand since I also use it in the ponds, along with
the Potash.

> Rather than typing forever, here's a pretty good table of plant nutrients
> and deficiencies. This whole site is very good.
> http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm

Hey, thanks........ I'm goning to check it out! :-)
>

--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Altum

May 9th 06, 01:29 AM

Koi-Lo wrote:

> I add magnesium separately (Epsom salt). Our water is very hard from
> calcium so I don't add any. I'm betting the potassium is the culprit.
> I just added some to each tank. I have no idea how much to add since
> it's meant for gardens, not tanks or ponds. I add 1 Tbs. per 1000g of
> pond water.

Did I mention the calculator on Chuck Gadd's site?
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm

Right off, add 1 tsp/50 gallons of potassium chloride (muriate of
potash) or 1.5 tsp/50 gallons of potassium sulfate. That will take you
to an ideal level of 20 ppm potassium.

From there, I add a fresh 3/4 dose with each weekly 50% water change to
my planted tanks. That way, at most I end up with 30 ppm even if the
plants use none. If the hygro starts looking holey, I add more.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

Koi-Lo

May 9th 06, 01:40 AM

"Altum" > wrote in message
om...
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>
>> I add magnesium separately (Epsom salt). Our water is very hard from
>> calcium so I don't add any. I'm betting the potassium is the culprit. I
>> just added some to each tank. I have no idea how much to add since it's
>> meant for gardens, not tanks or ponds. I add 1 Tbs. per 1000g of pond
>> water.
>
> Did I mention the calculator on Chuck Gadd's site?
> http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm
>
> Right off, add 1 tsp/50 gallons of potassium chloride (muriate of potash)
> or 1.5 tsp/50 gallons of potassium sulfate. That will take you to an
> ideal level of 20 ppm potassium.
>
> From there, I add a fresh 3/4 dose with each weekly 50% water change to my
> planted tanks. That way, at most I end up with 30 ppm even if the plants
> use none. If the hygro starts looking holey, I add more.
>
> --
> Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
> Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com
==============================
Thanks for the advice. :-) I have Chuck's site open now. I'm pawing
through it....... I'm thinking that since these vals are going so insane
that they're sucking up every nutrient I'm adding. I remember when I had a
large patch in my 800g pond a few years back. It was planted in plain
gravel in a kitty-litter pan. It was thicker than the fur on a Husky's
back. It grew outrageously and the water was always crystal clear that
summer. Makes me say,.... hummmmm..... time to move the rest of them
outdoors before they starve the other plants in the tank to death. Either
that, or I go broke pouring supplements in constantly.
--
Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Koi-Lo

May 9th 06, 06:08 AM

"Koi-Lo" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Did I mention the calculator on Chuck Gadd's site?
>> http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm

The calculator doesn't work for me. Nothing happens. Oh well....

>> Right off, add 1 tsp/50 gallons of potassium chloride (muriate of potash)
>> or 1.5 tsp/50 gallons of potassium sulfate. That will take you to an
>> ideal level of 20 ppm potassium.

Done deal. :-)

--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Mister Gardener

May 9th 06, 01:05 PM

On Mon, 8 May 2006 18:00:09 -0500, "Koi-Lo" > wrote:

>
>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 8 May 2006 09:58:55 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>>>> Koi Lo didn't mention potassium in her brew - it's an important
>>>> nutrient that is commonly insufficient in gardens and aquariums, from
>>>> what I've read.
>>>
>>>I assumed all these expensive Seachem plant foods contained it that I'm
>>>adding to the water. Apparently not then. I can add it from the bags I
>>>buy
>>>for my houseplants. I do that with my ponds several times over the
>>>summer.
>>>
>>>Holes in leaves and weak stems can be due to a
>>>> potassium deficiency, I got some holes in my leaves, more than just
>>>> snail damage, that's when I began adding the Iron and K mix, and no
>>>> more holey leaves.
>>>
>>>I didn't see Iron with K. I'm using the straight iron.
>>
>> Read labels. I don't use all of the Seachem products, just Excel and
>> the plain flourish, which is a pretty ordinary balanced fertilizer, it
>> doesn't really make up for big deficiencies in one particular
>> nutrient. That's why Seachem sells all the special bottles, Nitrogen,
>> Potassium, etc. I think I said somewhere in there that I have begun
>> using API's Leaf Zone, which contains Iron and Potassium only. Exactly
>> what I want. I don't know what is in the bags you buy for your
>> houseplants, but they are likely to be high in nitrogen and phosphorus
>> and low in potassium,
>
>I buy fertilizers as NPK and also separately in bags. Muriate of Potash is
>one of them.
>
>as most general plant fertilizers are. And you
>> don't want the extra N and P in your tank. Read labels and learn what
>> they mean.
>
>I know what they all mean since I've been gardening for many, many years.
>;-) I assumed the Flourish contained Potassium. It doesn't.

Flourish contains K2O 0.37%. NPK is .07-.01-.37, which is balanced
with potassium on the heavy end, meaning it contains a strong dose of
potassium. Flourish Excel contains a carbonator, no other nutrients.
We need to be specific when we refer to the many varieties of
Flourish. Plain Flourish is a comprehensive fertilizer with the major,
minor, and some trace elements. It is pretty complete within itself,
and should provide good results as a standalone plant food, dosed once
or twice a week. I think some folks here have gotten the mistaken
impression that Flourish Excel is a complete (miraculous) plant food,
it is not. It is formulated to provide carbon in a usable form to the
plants. Flourish Excel added to a tank not receiving a complete
fertilizer may cause an initial burst of growth, but the growth burst
will use up the available nutrients quickly, hence the need to add a
complete fertilizer. I think the comprehensive fertilizer needs to be
given a month long trial, dosed according to label, before adding
other nutrients or switching to a different formulation or brand. All
the while, continuing the Excel according to label directions. After a
month long trial, you can then evaluate your plant growth and
determine if your plants are showing any deficiency.
Once again, Flourish Excel is NOT a fertilizer, it simply provides
organic carbon, to complement a complete fertilizer. It's not Sunday
morning, but I sound like I am lecturing. I do all the grocery
shopping for my family, and sometimes it takes me forever to get out
of the store because I got stuck in some aisle READING LABELS. This is
especially important when selecting fertilizing products and
medication. For our plants and for ourselves, respectively.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Koi-Lo

May 9th 06, 04:10 PM

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 8 May 2006 18:00:09 -0500, "Koi-Lo" > wrote:
>>I know what they all mean since I've been gardening for many, many years.
>>;-) I assumed the Flourish contained Potassium. It doesn't.
================================
> Flourish contains K2O 0.37%. NPK is .07-.01-.37, which is balanced
> with potassium on the heavy end, meaning it contains a strong dose of
> potassium.

I have before me the 3 bottles of Flourish by Seachem. Not one bottle
mentions NPK. Not the Flourish Iron, or the Flourish Comprehensive Plant
Supplement or the newest one, Flourish Trace (elements.).

Flourish Excel contains a carbonator, no other nutrients.
> We need to be specific when we refer to the many varieties of
> Flourish. Plain Flourish is a comprehensive fertilizer with the major,
> minor, and some trace elements.

What is plain Flourish? All of them say something under the name Flourish,
such as "trace elements" etc. If I'm going to add N and P then I'll use
something priced more in line with reality like Miracle Grow or Peter's.

It is pretty complete within itself,
> and should provide good results as a standalone plant food, dosed once
> or twice a week. I think some folks here have gotten the mistaken
> impression that Flourish Excel is a complete (miraculous) plant food,
> it is not. It is formulated to provide carbon in a usable form to the
> plants. Flourish Excel added to a tank not receiving a complete
> fertilizer may cause an initial burst of growth, but the growth burst
> will use up the available nutrients quickly, hence the need to add a
> complete fertilizer.

True. I can't see why a houseplant fertilizer wouldn't work as well.
Apparently my fish aren't putting out enough N and P for all the plants,
especially these vals that grow like mad. I'm going to remove either all or
99% of them during the next water change. Their leaves are so long they
start to block the light to the lower plants as well.

I think the comprehensive fertilizer needs to be
> given a month long trial, dosed according to label, before adding
> other nutrients or switching to a different formulation or brand.
All
> the while, continuing the Excel according to label directions. After a
> month long trial, you can then evaluate your plant growth and
> determine if your plants are showing any deficiency.
> Once again, Flourish Excel is NOT a fertilizer, it simply provides
> organic carbon, to complement a complete fertilizer. It's not Sunday
> morning, but I sound like I am lecturing.

That's ok.... lecture away!

I do all the grocery
> shopping for my family, and sometimes it takes me forever to get out
> of the store because I got stuck in some aisle READING LABELS. This is
> especially important when selecting fertilizing products and
> medication. For our plants and for ourselves, respectively.
>
> -- Mister Gardener
> -- Pull the WEED to email me
--
Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Mister Gardener

May 9th 06, 05:53 PM

On Tue, 9 May 2006 10:10:02 -0500, "Koi-Lo" > wrote:

>
>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 8 May 2006 18:00:09 -0500, "Koi-Lo" > wrote:
>>>I know what they all mean since I've been gardening for many, many years.
>>>;-) I assumed the Flourish contained Potassium. It doesn't.
>================================
>> Flourish contains K2O 0.37%. NPK is .07-.01-.37, which is balanced
>> with potassium on the heavy end, meaning it contains a strong dose of
>> potassium.
>
>I have before me the 3 bottles of Flourish by Seachem. Not one bottle
>mentions NPK. Not the Flourish Iron, or the Flourish Comprehensive Plant
>Supplement or the newest one, Flourish Trace (elements.).

Flourish Comprehensive Contains:

Total Nitrogen N 0.07% (Nitrogen)
Available Phosphate P 0.01% (Phosphorus)
Soluble Potash K 0.37%) (Potassium)

NPK are the 3 major nutrients that plants need
The 3 minor nutrients are Calcium, Magnesium and Sulfur
Flourish contains these.

Trace elements in Flourish include
Boron, Chlorine, Cobalt, Copper, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Sodium
and Zinc. Other trace elements are included that are not listed on the
label.

Houseplant and other plant foods contain many of these same
ingredients, but not in the proportion that is required for aquatic
plants. We buy Miracle Gro, (well, you do, not me), to give us big
green leaves (Nitrogen) and big pretty flowers ( Phosphorus). Knowing
what you know about aquarium plants and algae, what would a fertilizer
with very large quantities of Nitrogen (=Nitrates) and Phosphorus (=
Phosphates) do for your aquarium. Virtually all plants, aquatic and
terrestrial, require similar nutrients, but the balance of these
nutrients, expressed as percentage on the label and on the NPK label,
is different for different kinds of plants. If I were to feed my
outdoor flower and tomato plants with a fertilizer that is mostly
nitrogen and very little phosphorus or potassium I would have great
green leafy plants with no fruits or flowers. That would be great for
my spinach, but just this morning I planted some beets, and added an
extra helping of bone meal, (Phosphorus), which helps grow big roots.
Ferts formulated for aquatic use contain an all around good balance of
nutrients, and will give good results for the average aquarium plant
grower. They will grow the plants without polluting it or creating
algae blooms. Once a person has mastered plant feeding with the
mainstream products, then s/he can move over to Tom Barr's web site
and start getting fancy. There are many who mix and match their own
plant solutions, but they have previously mastered the basics. Like
beginning with a 29 gallon tank of livebearers and danios comes before
a 300 gallon reef system. We have to learn to walk before we can run.
Another note, referring to something I said earlier, our plants derive
some nitrogen and phosphorus from rotting uneaten fish food and dead
plant leaves. We know what happens when we leave the rotting stuff in
there for too long. Which is why I am not a fan of totally hoovered
spic n span gravel vacuuming with each water change. I get the heavy
stuff out, but leave a little near the plant roots, which helps feed
the plants and prevents me from traumatizing the roots or stems of the
plants. Some aquatic plant foods assume the plants are getting all the
Nitrogen and Phosphorus they need from the food waste, so they only
include Iron and Potassium in their formulae, such as API's Leaf Zone.
I hope I've explained this clearly for you. I don't want to type all
that all over again.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Koi-Lo

May 9th 06, 06:34 PM

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 9 May 2006 10:10:02 -0500, "Koi-Lo" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Mon, 8 May 2006 18:00:09 -0500, "Koi-Lo" > wrote:
>>>>I know what they all mean since I've been gardening for many, many
>>>>years.
>>>>;-) I assumed the Flourish contained Potassium. It doesn't.
>>================================
>>> Flourish contains K2O 0.37%. NPK is .07-.01-.37, which is balanced
>>> with potassium on the heavy end, meaning it contains a strong dose of
>>> potassium.
>>
>>I have before me the 3 bottles of Flourish by Seachem. Not one bottle
>>mentions NPK. Not the Flourish Iron, or the Flourish Comprehensive Plant
>>Supplement or the newest one, Flourish Trace (elements.).
>
> Flourish Comprehensive Contains:
>
> Total Nitrogen N 0.07% (Nitrogen)
> Available Phosphate P 0.01% (Phosphorus)
> Soluble Potash K 0.37%) (Potassium)

OK. This is what it says right on the bottle. I have taken this right from
the label:

It first lists all the trace elements such as iron, magnesium, B12, calcium,
and the rest, then under them:
It contains no phosphates or nitrates that would promote algae
proliferation. Use 1 -2 ml for each 50 gallons.... etc. etc.

If your bottle contains it then they recently added it. This bottle is
about 2 years old.

> NPK are the 3 major nutrients that plants need
> The 3 minor nutrients are Calcium, Magnesium and Sulfur
> Flourish contains these.
>
> Trace elements in Flourish include
> Boron, Chlorine, Cobalt, Copper, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Sodium
> and Zinc. Other trace elements are included that are not listed on the
> label.
>
> Houseplant and other plant foods contain many of these same
> ingredients, but not in the proportion that is required for aquatic
> plants.

But how can we know that when they all have a slightly different formula?
And different plants use some of one and little of another?

We buy Miracle Gro, (well, you do, not me), to give us big
> green leaves (Nitrogen) and big pretty flowers ( Phosphorus). Knowing
> what you know about aquarium plants and algae, what would a fertilizer
> with very large quantities of Nitrogen (=Nitrates) and Phosphorus (=
> Phosphates) do for your aquarium. Virtually all plants, aquatic and
> terrestrial, require similar nutrients, but the balance of these
> nutrients, expressed as percentage on the label and on the NPK label,
> is different for different kinds of plants. If I were to feed my
> outdoor flower and tomato plants with a fertilizer that is mostly
> nitrogen and very little phosphorus or potassium I would have great
> green leafy plants with no fruits or flowers.

Exactly and this has been known for many years. :-)

That would be great for
> my spinach, but just this morning I planted some beets, and added an
> extra helping of bone meal, (Phosphorus), which helps grow big roots.
> Ferts formulated for aquatic use contain an all around good balance of
> nutrients, and will give good results for the average aquarium plant
> grower. They will grow the plants without polluting it or creating
> algae blooms. Once a person has mastered plant feeding with the
> mainstream products, then s/he can move over to Tom Barr's web site
> and start getting fancy.

If that's their thing. Right now I just want some healthy looking plants in
my tanks.

There are many who mix and match their own
> plant solutions, but they have previously mastered the basics. Like
> beginning with a 29 gallon tank of livebearers and danios comes before
> a 300 gallon reef system. We have to learn to walk before we can run.
> Another note, referring to something I said earlier, our plants derive
> some nitrogen and phosphorus from rotting uneaten fish food and dead
> plant leaves. We know what happens when we leave the rotting stuff in
> there for too long. Which is why I am not a fan of totally hoovered
> spic n span gravel vacuuming with each water change.

Those with many plants can't keep the gravel vacuumed to real cleanliness
anyway. I know I can't.

I get the heavy
> stuff out, but leave a little near the plant roots, which helps feed
> the plants and prevents me from traumatizing the roots or stems of the
> plants. Some aquatic plant foods assume the plants are getting all the
> Nitrogen and Phosphorus they need from the food waste, so they only
> include Iron and Potassium in their formulae, such as API's Leaf Zone.
> I hope I've explained this clearly for you. I don't want to type all
> that all over again.

Oh, it's quite clear and easily understood. Thanks. Apparently my plants
are not getting enough N and P since the old bottle of Flourish I have
doesn't contain it. I know I've had this bottle over 2 years and it goes so
far (250 mil treats over 12,000 gallons it says on the back). Also, I don't
know how old it was when I bought it. I wish they'd date these products.
--
Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

>
> -- Mister Gardener
> -- Pull the WEED to email me

Mister Gardener

May 9th 06, 09:32 PM

Upper Middle Posted, Lower Middle Posted, In Between Posted, Maybe
even Bottom Posted - Proceed At Your Own Risk:

On Tue, 9 May 2006 12:34:41 -0500, "Koi-Lo" > wrote:

>
>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 9 May 2006 10:10:02 -0500, "Koi-Lo" > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>>>> On Mon, 8 May 2006 18:00:09 -0500, "Koi-Lo" > wrote:
>>>>>I know what they all mean since I've been gardening for many, many
>>>>>years.
>>>>>;-) I assumed the Flourish contained Potassium. It doesn't.
>>>================================
>>>> Flourish contains K2O 0.37%. NPK is .07-.01-.37, which is balanced
>>>> with potassium on the heavy end, meaning it contains a strong dose of
>>>> potassium.
>>>
>>>I have before me the 3 bottles of Flourish by Seachem. Not one bottle
>>>mentions NPK. Not the Flourish Iron, or the Flourish Comprehensive Plant
>>>Supplement or the newest one, Flourish Trace (elements.).
>>
>> Flourish Comprehensive Contains:
>>
>> Total Nitrogen N 0.07% (Nitrogen)
>> Available Phosphate P 0.01% (Phosphorus)
>> Soluble Potash K 0.37%) (Potassium)
>
>OK. This is what it says right on the bottle. I have taken this right from
>the label:
>
>It first lists all the trace elements such as iron, magnesium, B12, calcium,
>and the rest, then under them:
>It contains no phosphates or nitrates that would promote algae
>proliferation. Use 1 -2 ml for each 50 gallons.... etc. etc.

If the label says it is Flourish Comprehensive, then the formula has
changed since you bought that bottle. The list you describe sounds
like it is Flourish Trace Elements. Which would not contain N or P.
It's either old or mislabeled.
>
>If your bottle contains it then they recently added it. This bottle is
>about 2 years old.

2 Years? Does it have an expiration date?

>> Houseplant and other plant foods contain many of these same
>> ingredients, but not in the proportion that is required for aquatic
>> plants.
>
>But how can we know that when they all have a slightly different formula?
>And different plants use some of one and little of another?

You know because it says on the label what it's good for. Using
Miracle Gro as an example, those time release pellets they sell, one
is for beautiful flowers, one is for acid loving Azaleas and one is
for All purpose. They sell Rose formula, Lawn fertilizer, etc. They're
all pretty much the same ingredients, but mixed in different ratios.
That's as specific as most of them get, that's all most people need to
know. A fertilizer for aquarium plants will say so on the bottle, I
assume you have pond specific plant growing stuff too.

>If that's their thing. Right now I just want some healthy looking plants in
>my tanks.

Then feed with Flourish Comprehensive. Also use Flourish Excel, though
it is not absolutely necessary. Follow label directions. That is all
I'm using at this time. Except for . . . I'm using the little Flourish
rabbit pellets that you poke into the gravel near the roots of plants
about every six months. I cannot tell you if they do anything or not,
since I haven't been running these aquariums for long enough to tell.
I forget their name, the are Flourish's version of Plant tabs.

>Oh, it's quite clear and easily understood. Thanks. Apparently my plants
>are not getting enough N and P since the old bottle of Flourish I have
>doesn't contain it. I know I've had this bottle over 2 years and it goes so
>far (250 mil treats over 12,000 gallons it says on the back). Also, I don't
>know how old it was when I bought it. I wish they'd date these products.

The amount of N and P are minimal in Flourish Comprehensive. Your
plants are probably getting plenty from the decomposing food, but
either way, try a new bottle of Flourish C. You are stimulating rapid
growth with bright lights and CO2 - but the plants need extra
nutrients to keep up with the rapid growth.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Mister Gardener

May 9th 06, 10:32 PM

On Tue, 09 May 2006 16:32:09 -0400, Mister Gardener
> wrote:

>The amount of N and P are minimal in Flourish Comprehensive. Your
>plants are probably getting plenty from the decomposing food, but
>either way, try a new bottle of Flourish C. You are stimulating rapid
>growth with bright lights and CO2 - but the plants need extra
>nutrients to keep up with the rapid growth.

Ooops. I forgot something. I made an assumption. Which is that you are
providing your planted aquarium with at least 2 watts per gallon and
that your bulbs are less than a year, preferably 6 months, old.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Koi-Lo

May 9th 06, 11:16 PM

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> Upper Middle Posted, Lower Middle Posted, In Between Posted, Maybe
> even Bottom Posted - Proceed At Your Own Risk:
>
> On Tue, 9 May 2006 12:34:41 -0500, "Koi-Lo" > wrote:
>>
>>OK. This is what it says right on the bottle. I have taken this right
>>from
>>the label:
>>
>>It first lists all the trace elements such as iron, magnesium, B12,
>>calcium,
>>and the rest, then under them:
>>It contains no phosphates or nitrates that would promote algae
>>proliferation. Use 1 -2 ml for each 50 gallons.... etc. etc.
>
> If the label says it is Flourish Comprehensive, then the formula has
> changed since you bought that bottle. The list you describe sounds
> like it is Flourish Trace Elements. Which would not contain N or P.
> It's either old or mislabeled.

I also have a new Flourish Trace elements.

>>If your bottle contains it then they recently added it. This bottle is
>>about 2 years old.
>
> 2 Years? Does it have an expiration date?

None I can see anywhere.

>>> Houseplant and other plant foods contain many of these same
>>> ingredients, but not in the proportion that is required for aquatic
>>> plants.
>>
>>But how can we know that when they all have a slightly different formula?
>>And different plants use some of one and little of another?

> You know because it says on the label what it's good for. Using
> Miracle Gro as an example, those time release pellets they sell, one
> is for beautiful flowers, one is for acid loving Azaleas and one is
> for All purpose.

I think we all know this but there are no pond or aquarium plant fertilizers
on the shelves. It's all gardening stuff. I wish Miracle Grow would make a
water soluble powder for us fish-heads. Ya know, just mix 1 tsp. per 10g
tank or whatever....

They sell Rose formula, Lawn fertilizer, etc. They're
> all pretty much the same ingredients, but mixed in different ratios.
> That's as specific as most of them get, that's all most people need to
> know. A fertilizer for aquarium plants will say so on the bottle, I
> assume you have pond specific plant growing stuff too.

The stores don't carry pond fertilizers with the exception of those
overpriced "tabs." The LFS have aquarium plant fertilizers buy they're very
high-priced as you know. Who can afford them for ponds? I buy magnesium
and potassium and toss it in my ponds and plant propagation tubs. I think
I'm going to try some Peter's I found on sale this week..... in the outside
tubs I mean - and see what happens.

>>If that's their thing. Right now I just want some healthy looking plants
>>in
>>my tanks.

> Then feed with Flourish Comprehensive. Also use Flourish Excel, though
> it is not absolutely necessary. Follow label directions. That is all
> I'm using at this time. Except for . . . I'm using the little Flourish
> rabbit pellets that you poke into the gravel near the roots of plants
> about every six months. I cannot tell you if they do anything or not,
> since I haven't been running these aquariums for long enough to tell.
> I forget their name, the are Flourish's version of Plant tabs.

I've been using Excel as per the container and the other supplements. That's
why I believe the plants are lacking N or P or both. I get a reading of 20
ppm for nitrate, so perhaps P is the missing element. I don't have a P kit.

>>Oh, it's quite clear and easily understood. Thanks. Apparently my plants
>>are not getting enough N and P since the old bottle of Flourish I have
>>doesn't contain it. I know I've had this bottle over 2 years and it goes
>>so
>>far (250 mil treats over 12,000 gallons it says on the back). Also, I
>>don't
>>know how old it was when I bought it. I wish they'd date these products.

> The amount of N and P are minimal in Flourish Comprehensive. Your
> plants are probably getting plenty from the decomposing food, but
> either way, try a new bottle of Flourish C. You are stimulating rapid
> growth with bright lights and CO2 - but the plants need extra
> nutrients to keep up with the rapid growth.

Thanks,.. will do!
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

-------------
Get FREE newsgroup access from http://www.cheap56k.com

Koi-Lo

May 9th 06, 11:23 PM

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> Ooops. I forgot something. I made an assumption. Which is that you are
> providing your planted aquarium with at least 2 watts per gallon and
> that your bulbs are less than a year, preferably 6 months, old.
===============
There are four 40w fluorescent bulbs over each 55. I can't remember what's
over the 10s. I replaced the 2 bulbs in their reflectors with those
fluorescent screw-ins. They're 25s I think. All these bulbs were bought
about 3 months ago, right after the holidays......

Another problem I'm having is heavy mineral deposits on the broad support
across the top of one of the 55s, and on the fluorescent tubes. I can get
most of it off the tubes but not the underside of the support on the one
tank.
--
Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

-------------
Get FREE newsgroup access from http://www.cheap56k.com

Mister Gardener

May 10th 06, 12:08 AM

On Tue, 9 May 2006 17:23:11 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> Ooops. I forgot something. I made an assumption. Which is that you are
>> providing your planted aquarium with at least 2 watts per gallon and
>> that your bulbs are less than a year, preferably 6 months, old.
>===============
>There are four 40w fluorescent bulbs over each 55. I can't remember what's
>over the 10s. I replaced the 2 bulbs in their reflectors with those
>fluorescent screw-ins. They're 25s I think. All these bulbs were bought
>about 3 months ago, right after the holidays......
>
>Another problem I'm having is heavy mineral deposits on the broad support
>across the top of one of the 55s, and on the fluorescent tubes. I can get
>most of it off the tubes but not the underside of the support on the one
>tank.

I just typed something about what I think of those crossbars in 55s,
in my present state of mind I would reply, "If thy crossbar doth
offend thee, then cut it out, woman, cut it out."

Mineral deposits have never been a problem for me. Maybe my soft
water?

So, no advice here. You read this entire message and learned
absolutely nothing.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Altum

May 10th 06, 12:12 AM

Koi-Lo wrote:

>> Then feed with Flourish Comprehensive. Also use Flourish Excel, though
>> it is not absolutely necessary. Follow label directions. That is all
>> I'm using at this time. Except for . . . I'm using the little Flourish
>> rabbit pellets that you poke into the gravel near the roots of plants
>> about every six months. I cannot tell you if they do anything or not,
>> since I haven't been running these aquariums for long enough to tell.
>> I forget their name, the are Flourish's version of Plant tabs.
>
> I've been using Excel as per the container and the other supplements.
> That's why I believe the plants are lacking N or P or both. I get a
> reading of 20 ppm for nitrate, so perhaps P is the missing element. I
> don't have a P kit.

20 ppm nitrate is GREAT for plants, assuming your test kit is not lying
to you. Nitrate tends to be a little hard to measure and some kits like
AP are notorious for causing false high readings. We get freaked-out
beginners here all the time measuring 40 ppm nitrate and they find out
it's only 5 when they get a better kit. Have you tried getting a
nitrate reading on bottled water to check your kit? You mentioned 20
ppm nitrate in your tap water. You can also call the water company to
see whether they get the same reading.

Planted tank folks describe plants that lack P as not having "sparkle".
It rarely causes clear-cut symptoms, but rather failure to thrive.
Got any potassium phosphate around? It's a bit trickier to dose.

You can toss in about a 1/16th of a teaspoon (size of a grain of rice)
worth of powder in your 55 gallon tank to go to about 0.5 ppm OR...

From the calculator I showed you before, make a stock solution of 1 tsp
of potassium phosphate in 250 ml (about a cup) of water. If you put one
ml per 5 gallons (1 tsp = 5 ml) of that solution in your tank, you will
have 0.7 ppm phosphate. That's squarely in the 0.5-1 ppm range that's
good for plants.

Again, if you do 50% water changes, dose half your target amount. So if
you never want to go above 1 ppm (plants will use some so it will always
be lower) add about 1.5 tsp of the phosphate solution to your 55 gallon
tank at each 50% water change.

BTW, if you put 0.5 ppm of phosphate in a pond in the summertime, all
the water hyacinth will bloom at once!

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

Mister Gardener

May 10th 06, 12:16 AM

On Tue, 9 May 2006 17:16:33 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
>> Upper Middle Posted, Lower Middle Posted, In Between Posted, Maybe
>> even Bottom Posted - Proceed At Your Own Risk:
>>
>> On Tue, 9 May 2006 12:34:41 -0500, "Koi-Lo" > wrote:
>>>
>>>OK. This is what it says right on the bottle. I have taken this right
>>>from
>>>the label:
>>>
>>>It first lists all the trace elements such as iron, magnesium, B12,
>>>calcium,
>>>and the rest, then under them:
>>>It contains no phosphates or nitrates that would promote algae
>>>proliferation. Use 1 -2 ml for each 50 gallons.... etc. etc.
>>
>> If the label says it is Flourish Comprehensive, then the formula has
>> changed since you bought that bottle. The list you describe sounds
>> like it is Flourish Trace Elements. Which would not contain N or P.
>> It's either old or mislabeled.
>
>I also have a new Flourish Trace elements.
>
>
>>>If your bottle contains it then they recently added it. This bottle is
>>>about 2 years old.
>>
>> 2 Years? Does it have an expiration date?
>
>None I can see anywhere.
>
>>>> Houseplant and other plant foods contain many of these same
>>>> ingredients, but not in the proportion that is required for aquatic
>>>> plants.
>>>
>>>But how can we know that when they all have a slightly different formula?
>>>And different plants use some of one and little of another?
>
>
>> You know because it says on the label what it's good for. Using
>> Miracle Gro as an example, those time release pellets they sell, one
>> is for beautiful flowers, one is for acid loving Azaleas and one is
>> for All purpose.
>
>I think we all know this but there are no pond or aquarium plant fertilizers
>on the shelves. It's all gardening stuff. I wish Miracle Grow would make a
>water soluble powder for us fish-heads. Ya know, just mix 1 tsp. per 10g
>tank or whatever....
>
>They sell Rose formula, Lawn fertilizer, etc. They're
>> all pretty much the same ingredients, but mixed in different ratios.
>> That's as specific as most of them get, that's all most people need to
>> know. A fertilizer for aquarium plants will say so on the bottle, I
>> assume you have pond specific plant growing stuff too.
>
>The stores don't carry pond fertilizers with the exception of those
>overpriced "tabs." The LFS have aquarium plant fertilizers buy they're very
>high-priced as you know. Who can afford them for ponds? I buy magnesium
>and potassium and toss it in my ponds and plant propagation tubs. I think
>I'm going to try some Peter's I found on sale this week..... in the outside
>tubs I mean - and see what happens.
>
>>>If that's their thing. Right now I just want some healthy looking plants
>>>in
>>>my tanks.
>
>> Then feed with Flourish Comprehensive. Also use Flourish Excel, though
>> it is not absolutely necessary. Follow label directions. That is all
>> I'm using at this time. Except for . . . I'm using the little Flourish
>> rabbit pellets that you poke into the gravel near the roots of plants
>> about every six months. I cannot tell you if they do anything or not,
>> since I haven't been running these aquariums for long enough to tell.
>> I forget their name, the are Flourish's version of Plant tabs.
>
>I've been using Excel as per the container and the other supplements. That's
>why I believe the plants are lacking N or P or both. I get a reading of 20
>ppm for nitrate, so perhaps P is the missing element. I don't have a P kit.
>
>>>Oh, it's quite clear and easily understood. Thanks. Apparently my plants
>>>are not getting enough N and P since the old bottle of Flourish I have
>>>doesn't contain it. I know I've had this bottle over 2 years and it goes
>>>so
>>>far (250 mil treats over 12,000 gallons it says on the back). Also, I
>>>don't
>>>know how old it was when I bought it. I wish they'd date these products.
>
>> The amount of N and P are minimal in Flourish Comprehensive. Your
>> plants are probably getting plenty from the decomposing food, but
>> either way, try a new bottle of Flourish C. You are stimulating rapid
>> growth with bright lights and CO2 - but the plants need extra
>> nutrients to keep up with the rapid growth.
>
>Thanks,.. will do!

You've gotten about all I know out of me - I'm presently doing fine
with the routine conventional stuff off the shelf, and just beginning
to explore the more daring side of fertilizing - - - I recently went
through the Krib's plant FAQs and learned a couple things I hadn't
known before, perhaps I wasn't ready to know them before; check it out
and follow some links. It can keep you very busy. And regarding pond
stuff, that's totally out of my territory. Ponds with fish are illegal
where I live, so I have no need to learn about them.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Koi-Lo

May 10th 06, 03:34 PM

"Altum" > wrote in message
. com...
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>> I've been using Excel as per the container and the other supplements.
>> That's why I believe the plants are lacking N or P or both. I get a
>> reading of 20 ppm for nitrate, so perhaps P is the missing element. I
>> don't have a P kit.
===============================================
> 20 ppm nitrate is GREAT for plants, assuming your test kit is not lying to
> you. Nitrate tends to be a little hard to measure and some kits like AP
> are notorious for causing false high readings. We get freaked-out
> beginners here all the time measuring 40 ppm nitrate and they find out
> it's only 5 when they get a better kit. Have you tried getting a nitrate
> reading on bottled water to check your kit? You mentioned 20 ppm nitrate
> in your tap water. You can also call the water company to see whether
> they get the same reading.

I called them and they tell me they're getting less than 5ppm. I'm using
the Quick-Dips by Jungle. I can't find the note I had here. The man there
didn't have much faith in any of the hobbyist kits. I haven't tested this
kit with distilled water.

> Planted tank folks describe plants that lack P as not having "sparkle". It
> rarely causes clear-cut symptoms, but rather failure to thrive. Got any
> potassium phosphate around? It's a bit trickier to dose.

No, just Muriate of Potash and the magnesium and of course the Flourish
products. I have the P for gardens I suppose I can use, but with goldfish
who would think a tank lacked N or P? :-) I'm getting the impression
growing really nice aquarium plants can be an expensive and complicated
hobby.

> You can toss in about a 1/16th of a teaspoon (size of a grain of rice)
> worth of powder in your 55 gallon tank to go to about 0.5 ppm OR...
>
> From the calculator I showed you before,

That on-line calculator doesn't work for me. Nothing happens when I tried
to use it.

make a stock solution of 1 tsp
> of potassium phosphate in 250 ml (about a cup) of water. If you put one
> ml per 5 gallons (1 tsp = 5 ml) of that solution in your tank, you will
> have 0.7 ppm phosphate. That's squarely in the 0.5-1 ppm range that's
> good for plants.

I'll see if I can find it the next time I go to that big nursery. That's
where I get my Muriate of Potash. There is only one place I know that sells
fertilizers separately here, and if they don't have it no one does. I use
Ironite from Lowe's in my ponds and I think I'll start to use it in my tanks
as well. With my husband semi-retired I can't go too crazy with my hobbies.
Happily my ponds are self supporting but my aquariums are not.

> Again, if you do 50% water changes, dose half your target amount. So if
> you never want to go above 1 ppm (plants will use some so it will always
> be lower) add about 1.5 tsp of the phosphate solution to your 55 gallon
> tank at each 50% water change.

Thanks.......
>
> BTW, if you put 0.5 ppm of phosphate in a pond in the summertime, all the
> water hyacinth will bloom at once!

Will they? I'll try that this summer. I know when I add 10-10-10 to the
outdoor plant tanks the water lettuce gets as big around as a dinner plate.

--
Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

-------------
Get FREE newsgroup access from http://www.cheap56k.com

Mister Gardener

May 10th 06, 05:47 PM

On Wed, 10 May 2006 09:34:55 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:
>No, just Muriate of Potash and the magnesium and of course the Flourish
>products. I have the P for gardens I suppose I can use, but with goldfish
>who would think a tank lacked N or P? :-) I'm getting the impression
>growing really nice aquarium plants can be an expensive and complicated
>hobby.

It's similar to beginning the aquarium hobby. Lots of expenses and
surprises. Lots of buying different products until you find the one
you really need. Once established, (both tank and hobbyist) it becomes
much less expensive.

>as well. With my husband semi-retired I can't go too crazy with my hobbies.

I know how it goes. Missus Gardener and myself are both living on
Social Security these days, so expenses have to be carefully planned.
I could never have started the hobby from scratch, I was lucky to have
stored a garage attic full of tanks and boxes of filters, lights,
parts. Most of these products haven't changed in 20 years, much of it
was still quite usable. During our long time together, we have come to
share equally in the enjoyment of each other's hobbies, so there is no
division of his and her hobbies, only "ours." That helps.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Altum

May 10th 06, 06:49 PM

Koi-Lo wrote:
>
> "Altum" > wrote in message
> . com...
>> Koi-Lo wrote:
>>> I've been using Excel as per the container and the other supplements.
>>> That's why I believe the plants are lacking N or P or both. I get a
>>> reading of 20 ppm for nitrate, so perhaps P is the missing element.
>>> I don't have a P kit.
> ===============================================
>> 20 ppm nitrate is GREAT for plants, assuming your test kit is not
>> lying to you. Nitrate tends to be a little hard to measure and some
>> kits like AP are notorious for causing false high readings. We get
>> freaked-out beginners here all the time measuring 40 ppm nitrate and
>> they find out it's only 5 when they get a better kit. Have you tried
>> getting a nitrate reading on bottled water to check your kit? You
>> mentioned 20 ppm nitrate in your tap water. You can also call the
>> water company to see whether they get the same reading.
>
> I called them and they tell me they're getting less than 5ppm. I'm
> using the Quick-Dips by Jungle. I can't find the note I had here. The
> man there didn't have much faith in any of the hobbyist kits. I haven't
> tested this kit with distilled water.

Jungle Quick-Dips? Yeah. I don't have much faith in those. Your tap
water is probably below 5 ppm. 20 ppm is pretty unusual in the US.

>> Planted tank folks describe plants that lack P as not having
>> "sparkle". It rarely causes clear-cut symptoms, but rather failure to
>> thrive. Got any potassium phosphate around? It's a bit trickier to dose.
>
> No, just Muriate of Potash and the magnesium and of course the Flourish
> products. I have the P for gardens I suppose I can use, but with
> goldfish who would think a tank lacked N or P? :-) I'm getting the
> impression growing really nice aquarium plants can be an expensive and
> complicated hobby.

Sure. It's as expensive and complicated as you make it. I've sent you
to gregwatson.com before. For $20 you get well over a year's worth of
every fertilizer you need for a 55 gallon tank - probably a two years'
supply of Plantex. Let's put things into perspective. Around here,
4x40 watt lights cost $120/year to run. So you're spending $240/year on
lights but balking at $20 in powdered fertilizers. You don't have to buy
Excel either - use yeast CO2.

Or save lots of money. Rip out the plants and run one 40W light on each
tank for a savings of $180/year. You won't have algae problems either.

As for complicated, create a free account on barrreport.com and read the
Estimative Index fertilizing articles. Once you get EI going, all you
do is add spoonfuls of fertilizer and change water and your plants will
grow fine.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

Koi-Lo

May 10th 06, 07:30 PM

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 10 May 2006 09:34:55 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>>as well. With my husband semi-retired I can't go too crazy with my
>>hobbies.

> I know how it goes. Missus Gardener and myself are both living on
> Social Security these days, so expenses have to be carefully planned.

I sure understand that. Once on SS it probably wont be much different for
us than it is now at times. Last year for example both the dishwasher and
refrigerator pooped out....... wait till you see what these items cost
these days. Shocking even at the "bump and dent" stores. Our Microwave is
getting old and I fear that will be the next to go. My husband just
replaced his ancient computer 2 weeks ago after selling one of his
motorcycles. The $$$ just keeps going. I'm fortunate that my health and
the health of my husband is excellent. We have no medical expenses as do so
many people our age.

> I could never have started the hobby from scratch, I was lucky to have
> stored a garage attic full of tanks and boxes of filters, lights,
> parts. Most of these products haven't changed in 20 years, much of it
> was still quite usable.

See? Aren't you glad you pack-ratted it? :-))) I still have an old
metaframe behind the outbuilding. It's beyond repair. I've kept anything
usable since the 1970s. I don't toss it unless it's in hopeless condition
like the totally dead Dynaflows and Silent Giant air-pump. But then I more
or less had aquariums all these years. When I couldn't have one (in an
apartment one time) I stored everything as you did your stuff.

During our long time together, we have come to
> share equally in the enjoyment of each other's hobbies, so there is no
> division of his and her hobbies, only "ours." That helps.

Unfortunately my husband doesn't have any hobbies other than riding his MC
with some friends, and his PC. He likes the card games that come with
WinDoze. I have a wide range of interests but live in a real rural area
so......

--
Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

-------------
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Koi-Lo

May 10th 06, 08:11 PM

"Altum" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> Jungle Quick-Dips? Yeah. I don't have much faith in those. Your tap
> water is probably below 5 ppm. 20 ppm is pretty unusual in the US.

The guy at the water plant had no faith in any of them. He claimed accurate
test kits are very expensive.

........I'm getting the
>> impression growing really nice aquarium plants can be an expensive and
>> complicated hobby.
>
> Sure. It's as expensive and complicated as you make it. I've sent you to
> gregwatson.com before. For $20 you get well over a year's worth of every
> fertilizer you need for a 55 gallon tank - probably a two years' supply of
> Plantex.

Yes, I've been there. You don't get much for $20 there since the shipping
and handling is so high (see below). Also, I'm not sure what I would
really need from them. Things like Potassium and Phosphates are cheaper per
lb. at my local nursery. I paid $1.49 for 4 lbs of M. of potash last
summer. Super-Phos is 4 lbs for $2.65. I don't need calcium as our water
is loaded with it. Mag' is dirt cheap at Wal*Mart so I buy it there. I
have Ironite already. I probably could use CSM+B Plantex 1 lb for $8.95.
But then to pay shipping for one item = $9.85 (shipping is more than the
product) means the total is $18.44 for one lb of this mix. I'll crush cheap
mineral tablets for humans or dogs for the micro minerals/nutrients. I'll
see if that works. These S&H charges are another reason why I so seldom
order anything online. I always try to buy locally first.

Let's put things into perspective. Around here,
> 4x40 watt lights cost $120/year to run. So you're spending $240/year on
> lights but balking at $20 in powdered fertilizers. You don't have to buy
> Excel either - use yeast CO2.
> Or save lots of money. Rip out the plants and run one 40W light on each
> tank for a savings of $180/year. You won't have algae problems either.

Electric is cheap where I live in the south. When I lived in NYC it was
certainly something to consider.

> As for complicated, create a free account on barrreport.com

Free? It's $12.95. When you're retired you're going to see how people must
stretch a dollar unless they have good investments, a nice fat bank account,
someone left them a bundle when they died or other forms of income. ;-)
Some of us have no choice but to be frugal if we wish to stay out of debt.

and read the
> Estimative Index fertilizing articles. Once you get EI going, all you do
> is add spoonfuls of fertilizer and change water and your plants will grow
> fine.

--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

-------------
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Mister Gardener

May 10th 06, 09:07 PM

On Wed, 10 May 2006 14:11:57 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
wrote:

>
>"Altum" > wrote in message
. net...
>>
>> Jungle Quick-Dips? Yeah. I don't have much faith in those. Your tap
>> water is probably below 5 ppm. 20 ppm is pretty unusual in the US.
>
>The guy at the water plant had no faith in any of them. He claimed accurate
>test kits are very expensive.
>
>.......I'm getting the
>>> impression growing really nice aquarium plants can be an expensive and
>>> complicated hobby.
>>
>> Sure. It's as expensive and complicated as you make it. I've sent you to
>> gregwatson.com before. For $20 you get well over a year's worth of every
>> fertilizer you need for a 55 gallon tank - probably a two years' supply of
>> Plantex.
>
>Yes, I've been there. You don't get much for $20 there since the shipping
>and handling is so high (see below). Also, I'm not sure what I would
>really need from them. Things like Potassium and Phosphates are cheaper per
>lb. at my local nursery. I paid $1.49 for 4 lbs of M. of potash last
>summer. Super-Phos is 4 lbs for $2.65. I don't need calcium as our water
>is loaded with it. Mag' is dirt cheap at Wal*Mart so I buy it there. I
>have Ironite already. I probably could use CSM+B Plantex 1 lb for $8.95.
>But then to pay shipping for one item = $9.85 (shipping is more than the
>product) means the total is $18.44 for one lb of this mix. I'll crush cheap
>mineral tablets for humans or dogs for the micro minerals/nutrients. I'll
>see if that works. These S&H charges are another reason why I so seldom
>order anything online. I always try to buy locally first.
>
>Let's put things into perspective. Around here,
>> 4x40 watt lights cost $120/year to run. So you're spending $240/year on
>> lights but balking at $20 in powdered fertilizers. You don't have to buy
>> Excel either - use yeast CO2.
>> Or save lots of money. Rip out the plants and run one 40W light on each
>> tank for a savings of $180/year. You won't have algae problems either.
>
>Electric is cheap where I live in the south. When I lived in NYC it was
>certainly something to consider.
>
>> As for complicated, create a free account on barrreport.com
>
>Free? It's $12.95. When you're retired you're going to see how people must
>stretch a dollar unless they have good investments, a nice fat bank account,
>someone left them a bundle when they died or other forms of income. ;-)
>Some of us have no choice but to be frugal if we wish to stay out of debt.

I agree. Many, too many, amerikans are making choices daily between
buying medications or food for the table. A trip to the city or to the
doctor can put a big dent in the pocket book. Shipping and Handling
charges for internet buying have gone through the ceiling. I maintain
that it is impossible for a person to suggest how fixed income people
should plan their money until they have been there themselves.

I also believe that the person with limited income needs to strive to
keep extravagances in control. And as I mentioned earlier, aquarium
keeping can become expensive when adding multiple high end lighting
units expensive plants and ferts, several varieties of fish food and
on and on. We all need to find that balance. For Christmas 2004,
Missus Gardener decided that our gift would be the beginning of a
savings plan for aquarium stuff, like a compact fluorescent fixture,
for Christmas 2005. I'm happy that I've found the middle ground on
plants and lights, 2 to 3 lights per gallon in all of my tanks is
producing results beyond anything expected. I'll probably be buying my
ferts from greg watson before the year's out, for now, I'm putting in
an order at Big Al's today for the largest sizes of Excel and a
general fert that they sell.

Koi Lo, like Missus and Mister Gardener and I'll bet many other
readers of rafm, need to find that happy medium, where they are
deriving real pleasure from the hobby without extravagance. And I wish
all the best of luck in finding a way to have a go at the hobby while
still putting food on the table. And I don't mean those 3 for a dollar
Kraft Macaroni and Cheese dinners, I mean the $1.50 Velveeta Deluxe
Macaroni and Cheese dinners. With the little dabs of broccoli in them
to make sure we get our veggies for the day.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Gill Passman

May 10th 06, 09:19 PM

>
>> As for complicated, create a free account on barrreport.com
>
>
> Free? It's $12.95. When you're retired you're going to see how people
> must stretch a dollar unless they have good investments, a nice fat bank
> account, someone left them a bundle when they died or other forms of
> income. ;-) Some of us have no choice but to be frugal if we wish to
> stay out of debt.
>
> and read the
>
>> Estimative Index fertilizing articles. Once you get EI going, all you
>> do is add spoonfuls of fertilizer and change water and your plants
>> will grow fine.
>
>
Registering on the site is free - it is getting the report that
isn't.....I've just registered myself and am looking forward to rooting
around on the site for the info Altum is referring to...

Gill

-ED

May 10th 06, 09:26 PM

Gill Passman wrote:
>> Free? It's $12.95. When you're retired you're going to see how
>> people must stretch a dollar unless they have good investments, a
>> nice fat bank account, someone left them a bundle when they died or
>> other forms of income. ;-) Some of us have no choice but to be
>> frugal if we wish to stay out of debt.
> Hear Hear !!

Mister Gardener

May 10th 06, 09:30 PM

TOP POSTED: I meant 2-3 Watts per gallon, not 2-3 lights per gallon.
That would be silly.

On Wed, 10 May 2006 16:07:14 -0400, Mister Gardener
> wrote:

>On Wed, 10 May 2006 14:11:57 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
>wrote:
>
>>
>>"Altum" > wrote in message
. net...
>>>
>>> Jungle Quick-Dips? Yeah. I don't have much faith in those. Your tap
>>> water is probably below 5 ppm. 20 ppm is pretty unusual in the US.
>>
>>The guy at the water plant had no faith in any of them. He claimed accurate
>>test kits are very expensive.
>>
>>.......I'm getting the
>>>> impression growing really nice aquarium plants can be an expensive and
>>>> complicated hobby.
>>>
>>> Sure. It's as expensive and complicated as you make it. I've sent you to
>>> gregwatson.com before. For $20 you get well over a year's worth of every
>>> fertilizer you need for a 55 gallon tank - probably a two years' supply of
>>> Plantex.
>>
>>Yes, I've been there. You don't get much for $20 there since the shipping
>>and handling is so high (see below). Also, I'm not sure what I would
>>really need from them. Things like Potassium and Phosphates are cheaper per
>>lb. at my local nursery. I paid $1.49 for 4 lbs of M. of potash last
>>summer. Super-Phos is 4 lbs for $2.65. I don't need calcium as our water
>>is loaded with it. Mag' is dirt cheap at Wal*Mart so I buy it there. I
>>have Ironite already. I probably could use CSM+B Plantex 1 lb for $8.95.
>>But then to pay shipping for one item = $9.85 (shipping is more than the
>>product) means the total is $18.44 for one lb of this mix. I'll crush cheap
>>mineral tablets for humans or dogs for the micro minerals/nutrients. I'll
>>see if that works. These S&H charges are another reason why I so seldom
>>order anything online. I always try to buy locally first.
>>
>>Let's put things into perspective. Around here,
>>> 4x40 watt lights cost $120/year to run. So you're spending $240/year on
>>> lights but balking at $20 in powdered fertilizers. You don't have to buy
>>> Excel either - use yeast CO2.
>>> Or save lots of money. Rip out the plants and run one 40W light on each
>>> tank for a savings of $180/year. You won't have algae problems either.
>>
>>Electric is cheap where I live in the south. When I lived in NYC it was
>>certainly something to consider.
>>
>>> As for complicated, create a free account on barrreport.com
>>
>>Free? It's $12.95. When you're retired you're going to see how people must
>>stretch a dollar unless they have good investments, a nice fat bank account,
>>someone left them a bundle when they died or other forms of income. ;-)
>>Some of us have no choice but to be frugal if we wish to stay out of debt.
>
>I agree. Many, too many, amerikans are making choices daily between
>buying medications or food for the table. A trip to the city or to the
>doctor can put a big dent in the pocket book. Shipping and Handling
>charges for internet buying have gone through the ceiling. I maintain
>that it is impossible for a person to suggest how fixed income people
>should plan their money until they have been there themselves.
>
>I also believe that the person with limited income needs to strive to
>keep extravagances in control. And as I mentioned earlier, aquarium
>keeping can become expensive when adding multiple high end lighting
>units expensive plants and ferts, several varieties of fish food and
>on and on. We all need to find that balance. For Christmas 2004,
>Missus Gardener decided that our gift would be the beginning of a
>savings plan for aquarium stuff, like a compact fluorescent fixture,
>for Christmas 2005. I'm happy that I've found the middle ground on
>plants and lights, 2 to 3 lights per gallon in all of my tanks is
>producing results beyond anything expected. I'll probably be buying my
>ferts from greg watson before the year's out, for now, I'm putting in
>an order at Big Al's today for the largest sizes of Excel and a
>general fert that they sell.
>
>Koi Lo, like Missus and Mister Gardener and I'll bet many other
>readers of rafm, need to find that happy medium, where they are
>deriving real pleasure from the hobby without extravagance. And I wish
>all the best of luck in finding a way to have a go at the hobby while
>still putting food on the table. And I don't mean those 3 for a dollar
>Kraft Macaroni and Cheese dinners, I mean the $1.50 Velveeta Deluxe
>Macaroni and Cheese dinners. With the little dabs of broccoli in them
>to make sure we get our veggies for the day.
>
>-- Mister Gardener
>-- Pull the WEED to email me
-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

-ED

May 10th 06, 09:32 PM

Mister Gardener wrote:
> On Wed, 10 May 2006 14:11:57 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>
>
>> "Altum" > wrote in message
>> . net...
>>
>>> Jungle Quick-Dips? Yeah. I don't have much faith in those. Your tap
>>> water is probably below 5 ppm. 20 ppm is pretty unusual in the US.
>>>
>> The guy at the water plant had no faith in any of them. He claimed accurate
>> test kits are very expensive.
>>
>> .......I'm getting the
>>
>>>> impression growing really nice aquarium plants can be an expensive and
>>>> complicated hobby.
>>>>
>>> Sure. It's as expensive and complicated as you make it. I've sent you to
>>> gregwatson.com before. For $20 you get well over a year's worth of every
>>> fertilizer you need for a 55 gallon tank - probably a two years' supply of
>>> Plantex.
>>>
>> Yes, I've been there. You don't get much for $20 there since the shipping
>> and handling is so high (see below). Also, I'm not sure what I would
>> really need from them. Things like Potassium and Phosphates are cheaper per
>> lb. at my local nursery. I paid $1.49 for 4 lbs of M. of potash last
>> summer. Super-Phos is 4 lbs for $2.65. I don't need calcium as our water
>> is loaded with it. Mag' is dirt cheap at Wal*Mart so I buy it there. I
>> have Ironite already. I probably could use CSM+B Plantex 1 lb for $8.95.
>> But then to pay shipping for one item = $9.85 (shipping is more than the
>> product) means the total is $18.44 for one lb of this mix. I'll crush cheap
>> mineral tablets for humans or dogs for the micro minerals/nutrients. I'll
>> see if that works. These S&H charges are another reason why I so seldom
>> order anything online. I always try to buy locally first.
>>
>> Let's put things into perspective. Around here,
>>
>>> 4x40 watt lights cost $120/year to run. So you're spending $240/year on
>>> lights but balking at $20 in powdered fertilizers. You don't have to buy
>>> Excel either - use yeast CO2.
>>> Or save lots of money. Rip out the plants and run one 40W light on each
>>> tank for a savings of $180/year. You won't have algae problems either.
>>>
>> Electric is cheap where I live in the south. When I lived in NYC it was
>> certainly something to consider.
>>
>>
>>> As for complicated, create a free account on barrreport.com
>>>
>> Free? It's $12.95. When you're retired you're going to see how people must
>> stretch a dollar unless they have good investments, a nice fat bank account,
>> someone left them a bundle when they died or other forms of income. ;-)
>> Some of us have no choice but to be frugal if we wish to stay out of debt.
>>
>
> I agree. Many, too many, amerikans are making choices daily between
> buying medications or food for the table. A trip to the city or to the
> doctor can put a big dent in the pocket book. Shipping and Handling
> charges for internet buying have gone through the ceiling. I maintain
> that it is impossible for a person to suggest how fixed income people
> should plan their money until they have been there themselves.
>
> I also believe that the person with limited income needs to strive to
> keep extravagances in control. And as I mentioned earlier, aquarium
> keeping can become expensive when adding multiple high end lighting
> units expensive plants and ferts, several varieties of fish food and
> on and on. We all need to find that balance. For Christmas 2004,
> Missus Gardener decided that our gift would be the beginning of a
> savings plan for aquarium stuff, like a compact fluorescent fixture,
> for Christmas 2005. I'm happy that I've found the middle ground on
> plants and lights, 2 to 3 lights per gallon in all of my tanks is
> producing results beyond anything expected. I'll probably be buying my
> ferts from greg watson before the year's out, for now, I'm putting in
> an order at Big Al's today for the largest sizes of Excel and a
> general fert that they sell.
>
> Koi Lo, like Missus and Mister Gardener and I'll bet many other
> readers of rafm, need to find that happy medium, where they are
> deriving real pleasure from the hobby without extravagance. And I wish
> all the best of luck in finding a way to have a go at the hobby while
> still putting food on the table. And I don't mean those 3 for a dollar
> Kraft Macaroni and Cheese dinners, I mean the $1.50 Velveeta Deluxe
> Macaroni and Cheese dinners. With the little dabs of broccoli in them
> to make sure we get our veggies for the day.
>
>
As for me and my house..I'll take the bologna w/cheese and Instant Tea !!-ED

Mister Gardener

May 10th 06, 09:33 PM

On Wed, 10 May 2006 20:26:46 GMT, -ED > wrote:

>Gill Passman wrote:
>>> Free? It's $12.95. When you're retired you're going to see how
>>> people must stretch a dollar unless they have good investments, a
>>> nice fat bank account, someone left them a bundle when they died or
>>> other forms of income. ;-) Some of us have no choice but to be
>>> frugal if we wish to stay out of debt.
>> Hear Hear !!

Hear? Hear what? Could you speak a little louder, dearie?

Being frugal doesn't keep us out of debt, but it does keep us in our
own home.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Altum

May 10th 06, 09:42 PM

Koi-Lo wrote:
>
> "Altum" > wrote in message

>> As for complicated, create a free account on barrreport.com
>
> Free? It's $12.95. When you're retired you're going to see how people
> must stretch a dollar unless they have good investments, a nice fat bank
> account, someone left them a bundle when they died or other forms of
> income. ;-) Some of us have no choice but to be frugal if we wish to
> stay out of debt.
>
> and read the
>> Estimative Index fertilizing articles. Once you get EI going, all you
>> do is add spoonfuls of fertilizer and change water and your plants
>> will grow fine.
>
Access to the EI articles is FREE. All you have to do is register. The
$12.95 gets you other stuff.

Gotta run...more later.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

Altum

May 10th 06, 09:51 PM

Gill Passman wrote:

> Registering on the site is free - it is getting the report that
> isn't.....I've just registered myself and am looking forward to rooting
> around on the site for the info Altum is referring to...
>
> Gill

Once you've registered, EI "light" has a simple cookbook formula.
http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2062

The original EI article has the theory and math.
http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1

I have my powder ferts premixed and just dissolve and just add powder
once or twice a week.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

Koi-Lo

May 10th 06, 11:16 PM

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 10 May 2006 14:11:57 -0500, "Koi-Lo" >
> wrote:
>>Free? It's $12.95. When you're retired you're going to see how people
>>must
>>stretch a dollar unless they have good investments, a nice fat bank
>>account,
>>someone left them a bundle when they died or other forms of income. ;-)
>>Some of us have no choice but to be frugal if we wish to stay out of debt.
======
> I agree. Many, too many, amerikans are making choices daily between
> buying medications or food for the table. A trip to the city or to the
> doctor can put a big dent in the pocket book. Shipping and Handling
> charges for internet buying have gone through the ceiling. I maintain
> that it is impossible for a person to suggest how fixed income people
> should plan their money until they have been there themselves.

It's hard for younger people who work full-time well paid jobs, and or those
retired people getting fat pensions to understand what it's like for us
older folk. I can't even get SS for another 3 1/2 years. We're living on
one person's semi-retirement income. The money I make selling GF, koi and
pond plants covers that hobby most years.

> I also believe that the person with limited income needs to strive to
> keep extravagances in control. And as I mentioned earlier, aquarium
> keeping can become expensive when adding multiple high end lighting
> units expensive plants and ferts, several varieties of fish food and
> on and on. We all need to find that balance. For Christmas 2004,
> Missus Gardener decided that our gift would be the beginning of a
> savings plan for aquarium stuff, like a compact fluorescent fixture,
> for Christmas 2005. I'm happy that I've found the middle ground on
> plants and lights, 2 to 3 lights per gallon in all of my tanks is
> producing results beyond anything expected. I'll probably be buying my
> ferts from greg watson before the year's out, for now, I'm putting in
> an order at Big Al's today for the largest sizes of Excel and a
> general fert that they sell.

I'll probably continue to buy that one as well. I have no time to mess
around with yeast for 6 tanks that aren't even all on one wall.

> Koi Lo, like Missus and Mister Gardener and I'll bet many other
> readers of rafm, need to find that happy medium, where they are
> deriving real pleasure from the hobby without extravagance.

That's the balance I'm trying to reach here. Cutting corners is a must
these days.

And I wish
> all the best of luck in finding a way to have a go at the hobby while
> still putting food on the table. And I don't mean those 3 for a dollar
> Kraft Macaroni and Cheese dinners, I mean the $1.50 Velveeta Deluxe
> Macaroni and Cheese dinners.

Hey, I love them things - cheap or not, but they're fattening! :-) I
even shop at the Goodwill store now. I'm not proud. I found a great denim
jacket there that fit like it was made for me, complete with the tag still
on it for $2.50! Someone bought it, didn't like it and donated it. It was
a $25 jacket. One woman's trash is another woman's treasure. I recently
picked up 3 denim like-new shirts there for $1.50 each (go on 1/2 price day
when everything in the store is 50% off).

With the little dabs of broccoli in them
> to make sure we get our veggies for the day.

How disgustingly healthy! Actually I love broccoli and cauliflower
boiled/steamed in a little water with olive oil, garlic, salt and pepper.
--
Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
..html
Aquarium FAQ are at: http://faq.thekrib.com/
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

-------------
Get FREE newsgroup access from http://www.cheap56k.com

Gill Passman

May 11th 06, 12:07 AM

>
>> all the best of luck in finding a way to have a go at the hobby while
>> still putting food on the table. And I don't mean those 3 for a dollar
>> Kraft Macaroni and Cheese dinners, I mean the $1.50 Velveeta Deluxe
>> Macaroni and Cheese dinners.
>
>
> Hey, I love them things - cheap or not, but they're fattening! :-)
> With the little dabs of broccoli in them
>
>> to make sure we get our veggies for the day.
>
>
> How disgustingly healthy! Actually I love broccoli and cauliflower
> boiled/steamed in a little water with olive oil, garlic, salt and pepper.

Why are you guys buying prepared Macaroni Cheese????
It is dead easy to make yourselves and a lot cheaper and
tastier....either of you care to email me and I will send you a recipe
to die for....

Gill

Koi-Lo

May 11th 06, 04:54 AM

"Mister Gardener" > wrote in message
...
> TOP POSTED: I meant 2-3 Watts per gallon, not 2-3 lights per gallon.
> That would be silly.
==============
I knew what you meant.
--
Koi-Lo....
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Koi-Lo

May 11th 06, 04:59 AM

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
...
>
>>
>>> all the best of luck in finding a way to have a go at the hobby while
>>> still putting food on the table. And I don't mean those 3 for a dollar
>>> Kraft Macaroni and Cheese dinners, I mean the $1.50 Velveeta Deluxe
>>> Macaroni and Cheese dinners.
>>
>>
>> Hey, I love them things - cheap or not, but they're fattening! :-)
>> With the little dabs of broccoli in them
>>
>>> to make sure we get our veggies for the day.
>>
>>
>> How disgustingly healthy! Actually I love broccoli and cauliflower
>> boiled/steamed in a little water with olive oil, garlic, salt and pepper.
>
>
> Why are you guys buying prepared Macaroni Cheese????

I buy it for an "in the pinch" quick dinner after a day outside working in
the yard.

> It is dead easy to make yourselves and a lot cheaper and tastier....either
> of you care to email me and I will send you a recipe to die for....

Send me the recipe please - you have my address. :-)
--
Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Koi-Lo

May 11th 06, 05:02 AM

"Altum" > wrote in message
om...
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>>
>> "Altum" > wrote in message
>
>>> As for complicated, create a free account on barrreport.com
>>
>> Free? It's $12.95. When you're retired you're going to see how people
>> must stretch a dollar unless they have good investments, a nice fat bank
>> account, someone left them a bundle when they died or other forms of
>> income. ;-) Some of us have no choice but to be frugal if we wish to
>> stay out of debt.
>>
>> and read the
>>> Estimative Index fertilizing articles. Once you get EI going, all you
>>> do is add spoonfuls of fertilizer and change water and your plants will
>>> grow fine.
>>
> Access to the EI articles is FREE. All you have to do is register. The
> $12.95 gets you other stuff.
>
> Gotta run...more later.
=========================
I guess I can't understand how to register for the free information then. I
keep ending up on a page to where you join for $12.99.
--
Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>