Orangey Fish ID please - small tetra?

[Flash Wilson]

Hi,

A friend recently gave me several fish that he had to get rid of.

I identified most of them - indeed they were mainly small fish
that I already had. There was one cardinal, five harlequins,
one bleeding heart tetra.

There was also another, about the size of a neon I suppose,
which I think is a small tetra but can't tell as I don't
recognise it. He has an orangey red stripe down the back.

Can someone please ID him for me?

http://www.gorge.org/fish/2004-03-19/orangey.jpg
http://www.gorge.org/fish/2004-03-19/orangey2.jpg

- not very good, but if you know what it might be I guess these
pictures may help...

All help gratefully received.

--
. ( www.gorge.org/fish )
\_____)\_____ O
/--v____ __`< . o
)/

[Flash Wilson]

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:17:14 +0000 (UTC), Flash Wilson > wrote:
>Can someone please ID him for me?

I know it's gauche to follow up to oneself, but I finally
found him in Baensch - he's a glowlight tetra.

Would he be happier with some other glowlights, or will
he be ok on his own? He's a bit more inclined to hide
than the cardinals and harlequins - but I'll be overstocked
if I'm not careful. I could manage 2 or 3 if it will make
a difference.


--
Flash Wilson
http://www.gorge.org
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I am a hostage to my .inbox.

[NetMax]

"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:17:14 +0000 (UTC), Flash Wilson
> wrote:
> >Can someone please ID him for me?
>
> I know it's gauche to follow up to oneself, but I finally
> found him in Baensch - he's a glowlight tetra.
>
> Would he be happier with some other glowlights, or will
> he be ok on his own? He's a bit more inclined to hide
> than the cardinals and harlequins - but I'll be overstocked
> if I'm not careful. I could manage 2 or 3 if it will make
> a difference.

Gauche? Not you ;~) You just answered your question faster than we
could. The Glowlights have the same shoaling requirements as your other
tetras, so I would get him some company. Exactly how many tetras (or
other fish) do you have in what size tank? Cardinals, Harlequins and
Glowlights are such slender fish that I doubt an inch would need much
more than 1/2g of water, and these fish do prefer to be in a bit of a
crowd. Overfilteration would improve your safety margin.

NetMax


> Flash Wilson
> http://www.gorge.org
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> I am a hostage to my .inbox.

[Flash Wilson]

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:17:25 -0500, NetMax > wrote:
>Gauche? Not you ;~) You just answered your question faster than we

Ah yes, but the silly thing is I'd spent a while looking online before
I asked! Never mind :-)

>could. The Glowlights have the same shoaling requirements as your other
>tetras, so I would get him some company. Exactly how many tetras (or
>other fish) do you have in what size tank? Cardinals, Harlequins and
>Glowlights are such slender fish that I doubt an inch would need much
>more than 1/2g of water, and these fish do prefer to be in a bit of a
>crowd. Overfilteration would improve your safety margin.

I had that principle, so I might have rather too many already...
given that I just inherited a few more!

It's a 70l tank, 2 foot - it's a Rekord 70 and I'm using the
inbuilt filter. It's heavily planted although I've just pruned
it so there is *some* swimming space in the middle and top!
Small black glass gravel, black background (looks pretty!)
Also, it's a sof****er / acidic tank, pH is usually a bit over
6 but I haven't tested recently *adds to the To Do list*

I've now got in total the following mixture:

9 cardinals
10 harlequins
2 black neons
5 blue tetras
1 bleeding heart tetra
1 glowlight
1 yoyo loach
1 cory cat (there were three, but only one left)
1 bristlenose pleco (rather fat :-)

They are all under an inch long, except Bristle who is
maybe two at most. That's 32 inches of fish in a 24 inch
long tank! Just as well the little fish count for less...

They all look very pretty and swim about which is what was
intended - the tank's in the lounge so it's a focal point.

However there is one other matter.... there's also a
largish angel. I was given 2 and I rehomed one (despite
people saying "they look great! keep them!") because there
just wasn't room. I was going to rehome both, but the one
that's stayed has a gammy eye and swims in circles, so I'd
like to get him better. And I rather like him. He doesn't
eat the fish at all and he doesn't really want to swim much.
I'm not sure whether it's mean to keep him in a 2ft tank,
or mean to the little fish (who probably don't know he won't
eat them, though they don't seem stressed). I suppose I'll
worry about it when he's better, but I can foresee being
rather attached to him by then! And he has made the tank SO
much more interesting to watch. But I'm not sure about him.

So, I'd like to know:

- what about the angel, is he ok in there or ought I
really to try and rehome him as well?

- if I keep the angel, I suppose that might take the
filter to the limit - although I've had no problems
with the capacity in the past (when I was a newbie
and had barbs, sharks, pleco etc all in there)

- how many glowlights should I get, it might get to
be a bit of a squeeze soon! That said, if they like
being in groups (and have loads of plants to hide in)
maybe it's ok...

Hmmm. Tank looks great, but I'd like my random adoptees
to be happy in it.

At least I know what I've got now (!)

Am about to upload some photos of the tank to
www.gorge.org/fish/tetratank

--
Flash Wilson
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Since working for Demon, or Thus, or whatever you call it,
I've been able to understand Rab C Nesbitt" - A Network Admin

[Sue]

You've got 18 small tetras and 3x 3" potential fish + a bristlenose on a 70l
tank? You are already a bit heavily stocked without the angel and with the
other fish still juveniles.
The tank is really too small for an angel but it will soon start to sort out
the overstocking since you provided some very nice feeders for it. Even the
correct prey species from its native rivers;oP

If you like the angel why not split some of this tanks inhabitants into a
suitable angel home >30g ?

Don't add any more fish to the tank.

Sue

BTW that angel is a long way off full grown ;o(

"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:17:25 -0500, NetMax >
wrote:
> >Gauche? Not you ;~) You just answered your question faster than we
>
> Ah yes, but the silly thing is I'd spent a while looking online before
> I asked! Never mind :-)
>
> >could. The Glowlights have the same shoaling requirements as your other
> >tetras, so I would get him some company. Exactly how many tetras (or
> >other fish) do you have in what size tank? Cardinals, Harlequins and
> >Glowlights are such slender fish that I doubt an inch would need much
> >more than 1/2g of water, and these fish do prefer to be in a bit of a
> >crowd. Overfilteration would improve your safety margin.
>
> I had that principle, so I might have rather too many already...
> given that I just inherited a few more!
>
> It's a 70l tank, 2 foot - it's a Rekord 70 and I'm using the
> inbuilt filter. It's heavily planted although I've just pruned
> it so there is *some* swimming space in the middle and top!
> Small black glass gravel, black background (looks pretty!)
> Also, it's a sof****er / acidic tank, pH is usually a bit over
> 6 but I haven't tested recently *adds to the To Do list*
>
> I've now got in total the following mixture:
>
> 9 cardinals
> 10 harlequins
> 2 black neons
> 5 blue tetras
> 1 bleeding heart tetra
> 1 glowlight
> 1 yoyo loach
> 1 cory cat (there were three, but only one left)
> 1 bristlenose pleco (rather fat :-)
>
> They are all under an inch long, except Bristle who is
> maybe two at most. That's 32 inches of fish in a 24 inch
> long tank! Just as well the little fish count for less...

> However there is one other matter.... there's also a
> largish angel. I was given 2 and I rehomed one (despite

[Flash Wilson]

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 13:24:17 +0000 (UTC), Sue > wrote:
>You've got 18 small tetras and 3x 3" potential fish + a bristlenose on a 70l
>tank? You are already a bit heavily stocked without the angel and with the
>other fish still juveniles.

Which are the 3" potential fish? The yoyo can be rehomed in my 4ft tank
when it gets bigger, it's ickle right now. The bristle, likewise if
needs be, but the idea is that it keeps that particular tank clean.
Which of the others can get to 3"? The others have all been with me
for at least a year or been with the chap I inherited them from for a
few years, so I'm not convinced they will get much bigger. Advice
welcome of course!

>The tank is really too small for an angel but it will soon start to sort out
>the overstocking since you provided some very nice feeders for it. Even the
>correct prey species from its native rivers;oP

I know that! I only popped him in there on the basis that a) he was
brought up with tetras etc and doesn't touch them, although he eats
flake and other food like there is no tomorrow, and b) that it was
temporary and that it would be kinder than keeping him in a tiny
net box in my hardwater 4ft tank (full of inquisitive fish which like
to peck) until I could rehome him. And then I found after I'd said ok,
I'd find them a new home or at the worst the LFS would take them, that
the one still with me had a gammy eye and therefore LFS etc wouldn't
take him.

>If you like the angel why not split some of this tanks inhabitants into a
>suitable angel home >30g ?

I like him in that tank. I didn't actually plan to get one, otherwise
I would have kept the pair and sorted them out a new home. I can't have
any more tanks, all the downstairs rooms are full of them (I didn't mention
my 3ft axolotl tank or my 2 betta tanks, did I? :-) so that's that.

By the way, the angels have lived for years in a smallish tank. That doesn't
make it ok, but that particular one is "used to it" I suppose... also his
habit of swimming in a circle because he can only see one side might be
a problem in a larger tank with other large fish. Perhaps - I'm not sure.

As I said, I can try to find him a new home once his eye is better, if
things come to a head... for now, what's in the tank is what I listed
in response to Netmax's question. I didn't say it was big or clever!
And yes, I agree it would be even more crowded if I bought a batch
of glowlights!

Thanks for the comments :)

--
Flash Wilson
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I'm an advocate of sex before marriage.
Otherwise I wouldn't have had any at all."

[Sue]

> Which are the 3" potential fish? The yoyo can be rehomed in my 4ft tank
> when it gets bigger, it's ickle right now. The bristle, likewise if
> needs be, but the idea is that it keeps that particular tank clean.
> Which of the others can get to 3"?
The bleeding heart & the cory.
The others have all been with me
> for at least a year or been with the chap I inherited them from for a
> few years, so I'm not convinced they will get much bigger. Advice
> welcome of course!
In that case they are stunted - all should get over an inch -some nearer two
inches.
I'd expect black neons & cardinals to get over 1.5" in less than a year

>
> I know that! I only popped him in there on the basis that a) he was
> brought up with tetras etc and doesn't touch them, although he eats
> flake and other food like there is no tomorrow, and b) that it was
> temporary and that it would be kinder than keeping him in a tiny
> net box in my hardwater 4ft tank (full of inquisitive fish which like
> to peck) until I could rehome him. And then I found after I'd said ok,
> I'd find them a new home or at the worst the LFS would take them, that
> the one still with me had a gammy eye and therefore LFS etc wouldn't
> take him.

Tank divider to keep the small fish safe? -or have you got a spare filter or
powerhead? Link a storage box to the small fish tank ( as if it were an
external filter ) and put the angel in there -15 gallons to itself sharing
the filter of the existing tank.
>
> >If you like the angel why not split some of this tanks inhabitants into a
> >suitable angel home >30g ?
>
> I like him in that tank. I didn't actually plan to get one, otherwise
> I would have kept the pair and sorted them out a new home. I can't have
> any more tanks, all the downstairs rooms are full of them (I didn't
mention
> my 3ft axolotl tank or my 2 betta tanks, did I? :-) so that's that.


If your housing your bettas properly you could swap with the angel - a betta
would be ok with the tetras.
My Betta tank would comfortably house a half sized angel ;o)

Hope you find this fish a good home soon.

Sue

[NetMax]

"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:17:25 -0500, NetMax >
wrote:
<snip>
> It's a 70l tank, 2 foot - it's a Rekord 70 and I'm using the
> inbuilt filter. It's heavily planted although I've just pruned
> it so there is *some* swimming space in the middle and top!
> Small black glass gravel, black background (looks pretty!)
> Also, it's a sof****er / acidic tank, pH is usually a bit over
> 6 but I haven't tested recently *adds to the To Do list*
>
> I've now got in total the following mixture:
>
> 9 cardinals 4.5"
> 10 harlequins 5"
> 2 black neons 1"
> 5 blue tetras (?) 3"
> 1 bleeding heart tetra .5"
> 1 glowlight .5"
> 1 yoyo loach 4"
> 1 cory cat (there were three, but only one left) 3"
> 1 bristlenose pleco (rather fat :-) 4"
>
> They are all under an inch long, except Bristle who is
> maybe two at most. That's 32 inches of fish in a 24 inch
> long tank! Just as well the little fish count for less...
<snip>

Stocking guideline exist around 3 purposes, the rate of re-oxygenation,
the rate at which a filter's bacteria will remove waste, and to reflect
the fish's requirement for space, whether territorial or just as a
swimming area. In your case, the plants & your pH will play a much
larger role affecting these parameters, than would normally occur in an
18.5g tank.

Regarding O2, I think your greatest exposure will be first light of the
day (the plants will have been removing O2 all night, so your O2 levels
are supported by your circulation across the surface). I don't think
this will be a problem if the flow is good and near the surface. Overall
the situation would deteriorate quickly in a power failure, but that is
another story.

Behaviorally, the loach, cory & pleco are in their world, and they are
not crowded. The tetras are in their world, and because of their
shoaling instincts. The quantity is not too high, but I think that there
are too many species. Besides their modest individual needs, each group
adds a 'species' space requirement. If you see different species
shoaling together (adopted cousins) them that helps things. This
parameter you might need to assess yourself by watching them.

Biologically speaking, your plants and water changes should be doing most
of the work removing ammonium ions from the water (much of your bacteria
is dormant or near-dormant at a pH of 6). Keeping that in mind, you
should not do large amounts of pruning in one go. Any significant
reduction in vegetative bio-mass would/should result in an ammonium
spike. Your greatest exposure (a good time to measure the NH4) would be
about an hour after feeding on a day where the plants were pruned back.
I cannot recall whether ammonium uptake is affected by photosynthesis,
but to be on the safe side, don't feed the fish just before turning off
the light. Give them a couple of hours before putting them to bed at
night. Note that your biological filtration method is currently a
balance between plant growth, fish food and light exposure (related to
plant growth). Any sudden changes in any of these 3 variables, or in pH
or temperature will shift your balance around.

If the kH were above 3 degrees, and all the parameters mentioned were
kept steady, then I wouldn't have too much concern about adding more
tetras to shore up group populations, though I'd probably give away the
Bleeding heart. Your system is vulnerable to old-tank syndrome, so
regular maintenance is key, including gravel vacuuming or lots of
foreground plants.

As a probably irrelevant reference, a commercial 20g tank on an automated
water change system holds about 120 juvenile to 90 normal-sized tetras
(single species), and you are at 31 fish (six tetra species). You would
be better off if your 28 tetras spanned 4 species, jmo.

> So, I'd like to know:
>
> - what about the angel, is he ok in there or ought I
> really to try and rehome him as well?

The biological footprint of an Angelfish is not as big as you would
expect. You can gauge it by the amount of food they eat. I have Monos
half the size of an Angel which eat twice as much (but they are also more
than 4 times as active). However the space needed for tetras to be safe
from an Angelfish is quite large. This is probably the constraining
factor. Angels are piscivorous specialized carnivores (live fish
eaters), so your tetras will be at risk, perhaps not today, but
eventually. However, the reality is that juvenile Angels can sometimes
be raised with tetras with relatively little risk. Tank-mates may not be
regarded as food (especially for an Angel raised on processed foods), but
this balance is artificial, and there is no way to know how permanent it
is. As soon as the tetras will fit in the Angel's mouth, they are at
risk. During the day, the Angel will not pursue them (they are too
agile), but everybody sleeps sometime ;~) Angels make attractive
centerpiece fish, so if you are willing to tolerate some losses, then the
decision is yours.

> - if I keep the angel, I suppose that might take the
> filter to the limit - although I've had no problems
> with the capacity in the past (when I was a newbie
> and had barbs, sharks, pleco etc all in there)

At 6.0pH I wouldn't think the filter was the constraining factor. I'd
slip an aircurtain along the back to improve the oxygenation rate though.

> - how many glowlights should I get, it might get to
> be a bit of a squeeze soon! That said, if they like
> being in groups (and have loads of plants to hide in)
> maybe it's ok...

Too many plants and they don't have enough room, and the plants shade the
lower growth, so you have die-back adding to the ammonium. Cut too much
of the plants and your biological balance get affected. You need (I
think) to maintain a steady level (balance) with the plants.

Regarding how many fish you can add, I try not to give advice to
experienced hobbyists ;~). I just offer what I think will be your
controlling and constraining parameters, so that you can best decide
yourself, by watching the fish and taking a few measurements.

For example, another measurement is to turn off the power to the tank and
time how long it takes before they show any signs of stress (if using an
external filter at higher pH, I'd move the filter and leave it running
elsewhere during the test). This is a good indicator of your
re-oxygenation safety margin. They first have to consume the O2 in the
water column, and then they have to rely on the surface rate of
re-oxygenation. Both parameters are of interest, though the refresh rate
is somewhat more important than the holding capacity. In a high
fish-load with adequate surface, they will be at the surface quickly, but
can remain without significant signs of stress in the upper 3 inches for
a long time. At the other extreme (ie: tall tanks), they will go without
signs of stress longer, but then the situation rapidly deteriorates.
Anyone living in the country (or where power is intermittent) is familiar
with this effect, and would/should adjust their fish-loads accordingly.
If your power is steady (or not) becomes one of the variables guiding
your stock levels.

> Hmmm. Tank looks great, but I'd like my random adoptees
> to be happy in it.

I can imagine what it looks like. This week I dropped 600 medium Neons
into a 60g tank (I was down to about 50 left). They are shoaling back &
forth over a Sunset Hygro we have force-planted across the bottom so it
looks like one big foreground plant, less than 4" above the substrate.
With commercial systems, filtration & O2 is not the slightest concern at
this stock level. The Neons do not fill the entire tank, preferring to
stay in a relatively tight group, leaving about 1/2 the tank empty.
Behaviorally, I think I could take them up to 1,000 fish, and
biologically, about 2,000 in this setup, but I've found that they work
best at around 500-600 fish. Customers usually stop dead in their
tracks, and admire the view for a few minutes. If only I had a
commercial tank at home, with a staff to do my maintenance ;o)

cheers
NetMax

> At least I know what I've got now (!)
>
> Am about to upload some photos of the tank to
> www.gorge.org/fish/tetratank
>
> --
> Flash Wilson
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> "Since working for Demon, or Thus, or whatever you call it,
> I've been able to understand Rab C Nesbitt" - A Network Admin

[Flash Wilson]

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:22:30 +0000 (UTC), Sue > wrote:
>> Which of the others can get to 3"?
>The bleeding heart & the cory.

Ahhh... ok. I read that Bleeding Heart can get up to 2.5" so yep,
that sounds sane. I might try to rehome that one, it's all on its
own anyway...

The cory is old - I had several but they don't seem to get along
and two died quite early on. I was expecting this one to go the same
way. When I say cory though, it might be a pygmy, that was what I
*intended* to get. I'll pay more attention to him and try to get
an ID from a specialist website.

>The others have all been with me
>> for at least a year or been with the chap I inherited them from for a
>> few years, so I'm not convinced they will get much bigger. Advice
>> welcome of course!
>In that case they are stunted - all should get over an inch -some nearer two
>inches.
>
>I'd expect black neons & cardinals to get over 1.5" in less than a year

The cardinals were from a not-very-good source, I think, because they
were the last ones in the shop rather than the best ones. They were
the first thing I got for the tank. Unfortunately the other shops
didn't have cardies so I went somewhere I don't trust much, and then
had a problem with them dying and getting sick. Means I learnt to
trust my instincts and wait for the other shop to get stock in rather
than buy from whoever had them :( The black neons - again, there were
more of them... Same story :-( This was all ages ago before I got
the blue tetras, or the bristle, or any of the fish I just inherited.

>Tank divider to keep the small fish safe? -or have you got a spare filter or
>powerhead? Link a storage box to the small fish tank ( as if it were an
>external filter ) and put the angel in there -15 gallons to itself sharing
>the filter of the existing tank.

I don't have any spare equipment, unfortunately. The tank in question
is also a Rekord 70, which has an inbuilt filter/heater/pump area. It
means I can't play around with the output or anything, it is built
to work as a single unit. Also it's in an alcove in my lounge, there's
no room to work around it unfortunately and I already have enough trouble
not getting anything wet when I work on it...

It's a good idea though, I'm not knocking it! I'm just not sure how I
could work it.

>If your housing your bettas properly you could swap with the angel - a betta
>would be ok with the tetras.

Depends what you mean by "properly", they are in their own 2.5 G tanks.
Conditions are fine for them, constant warm temperature, lighting
and clean water, but I couldn't exactly fit an angel in there.

>My Betta tank would comfortably house a half sized angel ;o)

Ah. I have separate tanks for male and female.

My axolotl tank could fit the angel, but I don't think that's a
good idea either ;)

>Hope you find this fish a good home soon.

It'll have to be better first. In the meantime I am doing my best
- I only put fish down if they are really suffering.

--
Flash Wilson
http://www.gorge.org
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I am a hostage to my .inbox.

[Flash Wilson]

Hi again Netmax,

Wow, thanks for such a detailed and helpful analysis, I was
rather expecting to be told "you have too many fish and should jolly
well know better" but instead I've got some great info on which
I can base decisions. :) Cheers.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:45:29 -0500, NetMax > wrote:
>Stocking guideline exist around 3 purposes, the rate of re-oxygenation,
>the rate at which a filter's bacteria will remove waste, and to reflect
>the fish's requirement for space, whether territorial or just as a
>swimming area. In your case, the plants & your pH will play a much
>larger role affecting these parameters, than would normally occur in an
>18.5g tank.

True. And the plants do really well, I regularly take a sword which
has gone nuts and pop it into the big tank, and put a smaller one in
its place. :)

>Regarding O2, I think your greatest exposure will be first light of the
>day (the plants will have been removing O2 all night, so your O2 levels
>are supported by your circulation across the surface). I don't think
>this will be a problem if the flow is good and near the surface. Overall
>the situation would deteriorate quickly in a power failure, but that is
>another story.

That's a really good point. Well, the filter outflow is just under the
surface, and the plants at the opposite end bend gently from it. I also
have an airstone in there so that the surface is always moving. You can
see when food gets dropped in and goes in circles :-)

>Behaviorally, the loach, cory & pleco are in their world, and they are
>not crowded. The tetras are in their world, and because of their
>shoaling instincts. The quantity is not too high, but I think that there
>are too many species. Besides their modest individual needs, each group
>adds a 'species' space requirement. If you see different species
>shoaling together (adopted cousins) them that helps things. This
>parameter you might need to assess yourself by watching them.

That's a good point. I can see that the glolight is hiding more than
some of the others (although new fish always do, to some extent) and
so is the bleeding heart. Given what Sue said about the bleeding heart
growing to 3" and the fact that I don't really want to get more of them,
I'll see if someone can take it. The black neons are happy to swim
with other fish, so it's just the glolight concerning me really, which
is sort of how this thread started. The others are in groups and
sometimes mix but usually come together in species groups at feeding time
at the very least. I'll watch them closely (as if I won't anyway :)

>Biologically speaking, your plants and water changes should be doing most
>of the work removing ammonium ions from the water (much of your bacteria
>is dormant or near-dormant at a pH of 6). Keeping that in mind, you

Hmmm... I had twigged they would *help* but hadn't twigged that the
bacteria wouldn't do a lot at that pH... (it's usually a little over
6, I just can't remember the figure, but around 6.4 tops IIRC).

>should not do large amounts of pruning in one go. Any significant
>reduction in vegetative bio-mass would/should result in an ammonium
>spike. Your greatest exposure (a good time to measure the NH4) would be
>about an hour after feeding on a day where the plants were pruned back.

Noted. I'll test it tonight an hour after feeding. There was some
pruning last week, so that is probably the closest I'll get to a good
test because based on what you've said, I'm not going to prune heavily
again!

>I cannot recall whether ammonium uptake is affected by photosynthesis,
>but to be on the safe side, don't feed the fish just before turning off
>the light. Give them a couple of hours before putting them to bed at

Yep :) I feed about 8pm. The light is on 12pm - 12am :)

>night. Note that your biological filtration method is currently a
>balance between plant growth, fish food and light exposure (related to
>plant growth). Any sudden changes in any of these 3 variables, or in pH
>or temperature will shift your balance around.

Sure. Particularly pH because ammonia would then be more toxic?

>If the kH were above 3 degrees, and all the parameters mentioned were

Hmm, it's *around* 3 degrees, not above it...

>kept steady, then I wouldn't have too much concern about adding more
>tetras to shore up group populations, though I'd probably give away the
>Bleeding heart. Your system is vulnerable to old-tank syndrome, so
>regular maintenance is key, including gravel vacuuming or lots of
>foreground plants.

Yep. In the past I've not done tooooo much in the way of water changes
because a) it's a hassle, what with peat filtering to get soft water
and all, and b) the water always seems to test well and there's never
any sludge when I gravel vac. But this was before I had so many fish,
so I'm going to get properly organised now - marking regular water
changes on my calendar as a reminder, etc - like I did the first few
times I went to the gym until I remembered to do it regularly on
specific days of the week :)

>As a probably irrelevant reference, a commercial 20g tank on an automated
>water change system holds about 120 juvenile to 90 normal-sized tetras
>(single species), and you are at 31 fish (six tetra species). You would
>be better off if your 28 tetras spanned 4 species, jmo.

Yep - that's on a commercial system, which plainly I don't have!
Ok, definite decision to lose the bleeding heart, as a minimum...

>The biological footprint of an Angelfish is not as big as you would
>expect. You can gauge it by the amount of food they eat. I have Monos
>half the size of an Angel which eat twice as much (but they are also more
>than 4 times as active). However the space needed for tetras to be safe
>from an Angelfish is quite large. This is probably the constraining
>factor. Angels are piscivorous specialized carnivores (live fish
>eaters), so your tetras will be at risk, perhaps not today, but
>eventually. However, the reality is that juvenile Angels can sometimes
>be raised with tetras with relatively little risk. Tank-mates may not be
>regarded as food (especially for an Angel raised on processed foods), but
>this balance is artificial, and there is no way to know how permanent it
>is. As soon as the tetras will fit in the Angel's mouth, they are at
>risk. During the day, the Angel will not pursue them (they are too
>agile), but everybody sleeps sometime ;~) Angels make attractive
>centerpiece fish, so if you are willing to tolerate some losses, then the
>decision is yours.

Hmm. That's a tough one, but at least I have more information now...
This fish doesn't seem interested in tetras, but you're right, it
might suddenly get the idea later on when they fit neatly in...
I also don't want a whole tank of scared fish. They don't seem
to be, but if their friends were eaten they might change behaviour.

>> - how many glowlights should I get, it might get to
>> be a bit of a squeeze soon! That said, if they like
>> being in groups (and have loads of plants to hide in)
>> maybe it's ok...
>
>Too many plants and they don't have enough room, and the plants shade the
>lower growth, so you have die-back adding to the ammonium. Cut too much
>of the plants and your biological balance get affected. You need (I
>think) to maintain a steady level (balance) with the plants.

Yep. Part of the pruning I did the other day discovered a layer of
brown bits underneath. I've now got it so that there is nothing
blocking another plant, and all can have light. I'll also keep a
good eye on it. The things that rotted from before were grasslike
- there's nothing like that now, which is a start.

>Regarding how many fish you can add, I try not to give advice to
>experienced hobbyists ;~). I just offer what I think will be your
>controlling and constraining parameters, so that you can best decide
>yourself, by watching the fish and taking a few measurements.

*grin* Well, your advice is very valuable, and I'm not experienced
with some of the fish I've now got.

>For example, another measurement is to turn off the power to the tank and
>time how long it takes before they show any signs of stress (if using an
>external filter at higher pH, I'd move the filter and leave it running
>elsewhere during the test). This is a good indicator of your
>re-oxygenation safety margin. They first have to consume the O2 in the
>water column, and then they have to rely on the surface rate of
>re-oxygenation. Both parameters are of interest, though the refresh rate
>is somewhat more important than the holding capacity. In a high
>fish-load with adequate surface, they will be at the surface quickly, but
>can remain without significant signs of stress in the upper 3 inches for
>a long time. At the other extreme (ie: tall tanks), they will go without
>signs of stress longer, but then the situation rapidly deteriorates.
>Anyone living in the country (or where power is intermittent) is familiar
>with this effect, and would/should adjust their fish-loads accordingly.
>If your power is steady (or not) becomes one of the variables guiding
>your stock levels.

I'm in the city, and we have had only a few power cuts since I moved
here nearly ten years ago. The most major was last year, for 13 hours.
The fish in that tank were all *fine* and the fish and filter survived
perfectly, it was as if they hadn't noticed. At the time there were
fewer fish - probably around 25 tetras and a small catfish in total.
By contrast, the fish in the 4ft tank (with an external cannister
and at the time an airstone, now an internal supplementary filter)
were gasping and hanging at the top - and the smell of rotten eggs
when the filter restarted was horrid. You might remember my thread
asking what to do in future if it happens! So while I *am* more
heavily stocked now, the indications are that it's "basically ok
for a few hours" I suppose. Ultimately, Da Bloke and I would like
UPS for the house - we run our servers from it too - but I'm not
sure I could swing it for fish to be prioritised over computers!

>> Hmmm. Tank looks great, but I'd like my random adoptees
>> to be happy in it.
>
>I can imagine what it looks like. This week I dropped 600 medium Neons
>into a 60g tank (I was down to about 50 left). They are shoaling back &
>forth over a Sunset Hygro we have force-planted across the bottom so it
>looks like one big foreground plant, less than 4" above the substrate.
>With commercial systems, filtration & O2 is not the slightest concern at
>this stock level. The Neons do not fill the entire tank, preferring to
>stay in a relatively tight group, leaving about 1/2 the tank empty.
>Behaviorally, I think I could take them up to 1,000 fish, and
>biologically, about 2,000 in this setup, but I've found that they work
>best at around 500-600 fish. Customers usually stop dead in their
>tracks, and admire the view for a few minutes. If only I had a
>commercial tank at home, with a staff to do my maintenance ;o)

Wow. Sounds great :)

You know, when I got the tank as a newbie and went with barbs,
I avoided things like neons because I thought EVERYONE had them,
etc etc. but when I got the new tank and needed to make my old
one a feature for the lounge I started thinking very differently.

Out of interest, what DO you have at home? I remember a thread
where people were asked what tanks they had and you referred to
those in your workplace, but I'm curious as to what extent you
take your work home with you :-)

Thanks again for the advice - lots of food for thought.
Time to ask the UK people if they want a bleeding heart tetra
for a start!

Cheers,
--
Flash Wilson
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Lowering the tone since 1975.

[NetMax]

"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> Hi again Netmax,
>
> Wow, thanks for such a detailed and helpful analysis, I was
> rather expecting to be told "you have too many fish and should jolly
> well know better" but instead I've got some great info on which
> I can base decisions. :) Cheers.

Always a pleasure Flash :o)

> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:45:29 -0500, NetMax >
wrote:
<snip>
> >Biologically speaking, your plants and water changes should be doing
most
> >of the work removing ammonium ions from the water (much of your
bacteria
> >is dormant or near-dormant at a pH of 6). Keeping that in mind, you
>
> Hmmm... I had twigged they would *help* but hadn't twigged that the
> bacteria wouldn't do a lot at that pH... (it's usually a little over
> 6, I just can't remember the figure, but around 6.4 tops IIRC).

From what I have read ie: http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

nitrosomona's optimum pH (oxidize NH3/4) is 7.8-8.0, and inhibited at
6.5pH
nitrobacter's optimum pH (oxidize NO2) is 7.3-7.5, inhibited at 6.0pH

This works out well as the bacteria which gives you NO2 goes dormant
before the bacteria which gives you NO3 (or else your fish would die from
NO2 when the pH dropped). If you are at 6.4pH (and haven't gone
significantly lower for any length of time), then I'd guess that your
bacteria is mostly intact and would bounce back quickly.

<snip>
> >night. Note that your biological filtration method is currently a
> >balance between plant growth, fish food and light exposure (related to
> >plant growth). Any sudden changes in any of these 3 variables, or in
pH
> >or temperature will shift your balance around.
>
> Sure. Particularly pH because ammonia would then be more toxic?

Exactly. As the pH increases, the NH4 becomes toxic NH3. If you can
raise the pH slowly, then it should not be a problem (as the bacteria
kick in and the plants continue doing their job). Rapid pH changes
between 6 and 8 are nasty.


> >If the kH were above 3 degrees, and all the parameters mentioned were
>
> Hmm, it's *around* 3 degrees, not above it...

Not a lot of margin. I'd suggest baking soda under normal circumstances,
but with the state of your pH (bacterial threshold) and with your
fish-load, you want anything which happens to happen slowly. This is
where high fish-load can be very frustrating. Your hands are tied quite
tightly in regards to your options.

> >kept steady, then I wouldn't have too much concern about adding more
> >tetras to shore up group populations, though I'd probably give away
the
> >Bleeding heart. Your system is vulnerable to old-tank syndrome, so
> >regular maintenance is key, including gravel vacuuming or lots of
> >foreground plants.
>
> Yep. In the past I've not done tooooo much in the way of water changes
> because a) it's a hassle, what with peat filtering to get soft water
> and all, and b) the water always seems to test well and there's never
> any sludge when I gravel vac. But this was before I had so many fish,
> so I'm going to get properly organised now - marking regular water
> changes on my calendar as a reminder, etc - like I did the first few
> times I went to the gym until I remembered to do it regularly on
> specific days of the week :)

I've gotten caught before. The trouble with an incrementally larger fish
load is that if the tank is running well, it continues to do so, but
eating away at your safety margin (and often eating away at your kH
buffer). Then when you are the most confident in your abilities and are
the most unaware, you get caught. It's actually quite embarassing to
randomly do a water test and discover your usual 7.7pH is 6.0pH *agh*.
Fortunately, sof****er fish (like your Corys, Loaches & Tetras) do not
generally mind a gradual drop to acidic water. You just need to gently
nudge it back up.

<snip>
> Out of interest, what DO you have at home? I remember a thread
> where people were asked what tanks they had and you referred to
> those in your workplace, but I'm curious as to what extent you
> take your work home with you :-)

The worst place for an alcoholic to work is behind a bar. It's similar
to a fishaholic managing a fish store ;~) I feel like a kid in a candy
store. I can order anything I want (provided I don't lose money doing
it). Consequently, I am trying to dry-dock all my tanks at home (it's
just too much, - the tanks at work all feel like my own tanks). I
currently have only 2 left with water. A 40g filled with 6 Julidochromis
marlieri (I like Julies, but they can be a PITA), and a 66g in my
livingroom wall (which would look odd empty), and it's my odds & ends
planted community tank, currently with very expensive fancy Guppies (I'm
on well water), 4 loaches (who nip my expensive Guppies) and a Bushynose
(named Charles, a regular poster here). I used to have an African
community tank in a 100g, led by a big Frontosa whose name was Sgt.Orly
(another poster, so maybe I'll name something Flash soon ;~). When that
tank split open and dumped half its contents of water, I moved my fish to
the shop (I get to see them more there anyways :o)

NetMax

> Thanks again for the advice - lots of food for thought.
> Time to ask the UK people if they want a bleeding heart tetra
> for a start!
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Flash Wilson
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Lowering the tone since 1975.

[Flash Wilson]

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 15:04:27 -0500, NetMax > wrote:
>This works out well as the bacteria which gives you NO2 goes dormant
>before the bacteria which gives you NO3 (or else your fish would die from
>NO2 when the pH dropped). If you are at 6.4pH (and haven't gone
>significantly lower for any length of time), then I'd guess that your
>bacteria is mostly intact and would bounce back quickly.

*checks*

Testing an hour after feeding - pH 6.4, KH 3, ammonia and nitrite nil.

>Not a lot of margin. I'd suggest baking soda under normal circumstances,
>but with the state of your pH (bacterial threshold) and with your
>fish-load, you want anything which happens to happen slowly. This is
>where high fish-load can be very frustrating. Your hands are tied quite
>tightly in regards to your options.

I do add baking soda occasionally and also I tend to top up with tap
water (harder and more basic in pH) which seems to keep things stable.
Hmm. I'll keep a very careful eye from now on.

>Then when you are the most confident in your abilities and are
>the most unaware, you get caught. It's actually quite embarassing to
>randomly do a water test and discover your usual 7.7pH is 6.0pH *agh*.

Meep! Sounds like the sort of thing I had in the past, once.
I'm a bit more careful now! But yes, I can see it could happen again.
I'll be much more organised about regular tests and water changes ;)

>The worst place for an alcoholic to work is behind a bar. It's similar
>to a fishaholic managing a fish store ;~)

Ahhhh.

>a big Frontosa whose name was Sgt.Orly
>(another poster, so maybe I'll name something Flash soon ;~).

That would be amusing :) Flash is quite a good name for pets, not
sure about people but I am stuck with it!

Well, Marksfish has started offering free classifieds, so I am
advertising my bleeding heart tetra... :)

Thanks,
--
Flash Wilson
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Still collecting Electricity Pylon photos - please send me yours!
- http://www.gorge.org/pylons