Under tank external filters: water flooding problems?

[violinconcerto]

I am new to the group.

I am thinking about installing a filter in the storage space below the
tank. I have not yet decided on what kind of filters: wet/dry or
others. But I was wondering that, if the pump stops working, whether
all the water in the tank will be syphoned down into the storage space
and eventually onto the floor?

My only experience is an external pump hanging onto the side of the
tank.

My air pump has a one way valve which is supposed to stop any water
from syphoning off. Also my air pump is a couple of feet above the
tank so syphoning shouldn't be a problem.

I will appreciate any advice.

[Dick]

On 28 May 2006 11:48:23 -0700, "violinconcerto"
> wrote:

>I am new to the group.
>
>I am thinking about installing a filter in the storage space below the
>tank. I have not yet decided on what kind of filters: wet/dry or
>others. But I was wondering that, if the pump stops working, whether
>all the water in the tank will be syphoned down into the storage space
>and eventually onto the floor?
>
>My only experience is an external pump hanging onto the side of the
>tank.
>
>My air pump has a one way valve which is supposed to stop any water
>from syphoning off. Also my air pump is a couple of feet above the
>tank so syphoning shouldn't be a problem.
>
>I will appreciate any advice.

I have always used gravity feed filters so cannot say anything from
personal experience. However, why not put the filter tank above the
tank and pump the tank water up. I have a 29 gallon that uses such a
technique. I guess you are lacking for space between the tank and the
wall.

I wonder if the water pump will have a built in one way valve? My
motorhome water supply pump has such a valve, then again I imagine
they are available commercially if the pump doesn't come with one.

dick

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are two *Koi-Lo's* on the pond and aquaria groups.

"violinconcerto" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I am new to the group.
>
> I am thinking about installing a filter in the storage space below the
> tank. I have not yet decided on what kind of filters: wet/dry or
> others. But I was wondering that, if the pump stops working, whether
> all the water in the tank will be syphoned down into the storage space
> and eventually onto the floor?
=============================
With the Fluval type that wont happen as the outlet hose is in the tank
itself. One of the hoses would have to come loose of the filter to drain
the tank.

Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Disclaimer: Rude, inane or obscene messages are not mine .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<~{@ ~~~~~<~~{@ ~~~<~~{@

[dc]

"violinconcerto" > wrote in
oups.com:

> I am thinking about installing a filter in the storage space below the
> tank. I have not yet decided on what kind of filters: wet/dry or
> others. But I was wondering that, if the pump stops working, whether
> all the water in the tank will be syphoned down into the storage space
> and eventually onto the floor?

You're talking about a wet/dry filter with a sump.

Sumps typically use an overflow siphon where water is siphoned from or near
the top of the aquarium; if the return pump fails the water level of your
aquarium only drops a couple of inches before the siphon is broken. Sumps
normally have a lot of reserve space so these extra gallons end up in the
sump and not on the floor.

If you are going this route you should consider having your tank drilled
through the bottom or the back (if the bottom is tempered) to accommodate
this kind of overflow system.

If you don't want to drill your tank you could also go with a special
skimmer box, like the Marineland Skimmer Box and Overflow System, but it
isn't quite as neat--restarting the siphon isn't as simple as restarting
the return pump with this kind of setup.

A simpler option may be to go with a good canister filter. These filters
are completely sealed environments--if the pumps stops, the water flow
halts immediately. Large high quality canisters like those made by Eheim
and Rena are quite versatile.

Honestly, I don't think you'll find much benefit in going the wet/dry sump
route unless you're in the 90+ gallon range or you plan on adding a lot of
extra equipment on to your sump besides a wet/dry filter.

[Rick]

"violinconcerto" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I am new to the group.
>
> I am thinking about installing a filter in the storage space below the
> tank. I have not yet decided on what kind of filters: wet/dry or
> others. But I was wondering that, if the pump stops working, whether
> all the water in the tank will be syphoned down into the storage space
> and eventually onto the floor?
>
> My only experience is an external pump hanging onto the side of the
> tank.
>
> My air pump has a one way valve which is supposed to stop any water
> from syphoning off. Also my air pump is a couple of feet above the
> tank so syphoning shouldn't be a problem.
>
> I will appreciate any advice.

Drill a small hole on the side of you return(s) just below the water line,
this will break the siphon as the water reaches the small hole. I learn the
hard way. The water will still drain till it reaches the edge of the
overflow. As stated by dc, the sump should have enough reserve for the
siphoned water, if you buy the right size sump.
I use an overflow skimmer that hangs on the back just as a filter would.
Once you have the J tube filled, it stays filled unless you remove it for
cleaning, so restarting is no problem at all. If you do remove it for
whatever reason, you simply suck the air out of the tube with a small
(provided) hose.
I personally would not attempt to drill the tank as most newer tank use
tempered glass on the bottom.
I agree that these system are usually only needed on 90+ tanks, and they
aint cheap (around 3 bills for sump, overflow, pump, and return).

[violinconcerto]

Thanks for the advice thus far.

I am not prepared to drill a hole in my tank because I am not that
brave. If I decide to go that route, I will probably ask my retailer
to do it.

My only experience thus far is a 30 gallon fresh water tank since
Christmas. I am considering placing a larger tank in the family room
-- may a 90 to 110 gallon fresh tank.

The reason of quoting the wet/dry filter is that it has both aerobic
and anaerobic properties. I thought that it will also give the water a
better chance to exchange with the air. Yet I am thinking about using
a spraybar for the water return anyways. I like the notion of a
canister filter. Yet I heard that they are a bear to clean.

With the larger tank size, othe than requiring a filter or filters of
high capacity, are there other considerations?

Thanks again.

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are two *Koi-Lo's* on the pond and aquaria groups.

"violinconcerto" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks for the advice thus far.
>
> I am not prepared to drill a hole in my tank because I am not that
> brave. If I decide to go that route, I will probably ask my retailer
> to do it.

What happens if the glass cracks or breaks? Do they have insurance to
replace your tank? I personally would never have a tank drilled.

> My only experience thus far is a 30 gallon fresh water tank since
> Christmas. I am considering placing a larger tank in the family room
> -- may a 90 to 110 gallon fresh tank.

Think WEIGHT unless it's a basement floor. Weight is definitely something
to consider. Also.... should there be an accident where will the water go?
I had a 30g split at the side during the night and the damage done to the
house was incredible. That included ruined carpeting on the main floor to
parts of the ceiling in the basement falling down. :-(

> The reason of quoting the wet/dry filter is that it has both aerobic
> and anaerobic properties. I thought that it will also give the water a
> better chance to exchange with the air. Yet I am thinking about using
> a spraybar for the water return anyways. I like the notion of a
> canister filter. Yet I heard that they are a bear to clean.

My old Fluval was the pits to clean. I now use Aquaclears and am happy with
those. I read that the new canisters are easier to clean than the old ones
were.

> With the larger tank size, othe than requiring a filter or filters of
> high capacity, are there other considerations?

Weight and accidents. The basement is the safest place for larger tanks.

> Thanks again.
--
Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Aquarium FAQ are at: http://faq.thekrib.com/
I do not post from Earthlink.net
Rude or obscene messages posted by my impersonator.
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>




>

[dc]

"violinconcerto" > wrote in
oups.com:

> I am not prepared to drill a hole in my tank because I am not that
> brave. If I decide to go that route, I will probably ask my retailer
> to do it.

Tank drilling is not something you should ever attempt on your own unless
you have been properly read or trained.


> The reason of quoting the wet/dry filter is that it has both aerobic
> and anaerobic properties. I thought that it will also give the water a

Wet/dry filters don't do much for anaerobic bacteria. Water passes far too
quickly through the filter for there to be any anaerobic zones. Wet/dry
filters are nitrate factories, not nitrate removers. You would need to
connect some other nitrate reducing device to your sump, like a specialized
fluidized bed, if you wanted to remove nitrate this way.

A wet/dry filter will blast CO2 out of your system rapidly too, so if you
want intense plant growth you may have to compensate with good CO2
injection.


> a spraybar for the water return anyways. I like the notion of a
> canister filter. Yet I heard that they are a bear to clean.

Good ones are simple to clean. Cheap ones (e.g. Fluval) are harder to
clean, messy to start, and often break. A good large canister won't
require a lot of frequent cleaning anyway.


> With the larger tank size, othe than requiring a filter or filters of
> high capacity, are there other considerations?

You'll want significantly stronger lighting to compensate for the increased
depth, if you want to keep plants.

Something like a Phython might be a worth while investment if you want to
cut down on a lot more bucket carrying.

Weight is a concern. Water weights roughly 10 lbs. per gallon. You will
want to make sure your tank runs parallel to sufficient floor joists or is
properly supported by other means.

Other than that, larger tanks are a lot like small tanks but with more
water. That can sometimes translate into a larger room for error. ;)

[dc]

dc > wrote in
:

> Weight is a concern. Water weights roughly 10 lbs. per gallon. You
> will want to make sure your tank runs parallel to sufficient floor
> joists or is properly supported by other means.

err... that should read PERPENDICULAR TO, not parallel

[[email protected] (Koi-Lo]

I guess what yu mneant is not ****ing good enough, Whats so
****inghard about saying what the hell you mean to begin with
asshole., Is that too much ****ing trouble for you, or do yuy expect
other to have to cypher out just what the **** your talking
about......go stand inthe corner yuo jerk!

And thanks for the email address..They are worth money when forwarded
to spammers and mailing lists.
You dumb ass!

On 31 May 2006 06:05:11 -0700, "violinconcerto"
> wrote:
>><>Again, thanks for the advice.
>><>
>><>I guess what I meant by:
>><>
>><>"With the larger tank size, othe than requiring a filter or filters of
>><>high capacity, are there other considerations?"
>><>
>><>I was wondering, besides the higher filter capacity for larger tanks,
>><>what other considerations should I give?
>><>
>><>Thanks for any response in advance.

[violinconcerto]

I meant in the FILTER DEPARTMENT. Sorry, my oversight.

[swarvegorilla]

"Koi-Lo" <Disclaimer: I am not the profane Koi-Lo posting from
Earthlink.net> wrote in message ...
> *Note: There are two *Koi-Lo's* on the pond and aquaria groups.
>
> "violinconcerto" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Thanks for the advice thus far.
>>
>> I am not prepared to drill a hole in my tank because I am not that
>> brave. If I decide to go that route, I will probably ask my retailer
>> to do it.
>
> What happens if the glass cracks or breaks? Do they have insurance to
> replace your tank? I personally would never have a tank drilled.
>
>> My only experience thus far is a 30 gallon fresh water tank since
>> Christmas. I am considering placing a larger tank in the family room
>> -- may a 90 to 110 gallon fresh tank.
>
> Think WEIGHT unless it's a basement floor. Weight is definitely something
> to consider. Also.... should there be an accident where will the water
> go? I had a 30g split at the side during the night and the damage done to
> the house was incredible. That included ruined carpeting on the main
> floor to parts of the ceiling in the basement falling down. :-(
>
>> The reason of quoting the wet/dry filter is that it has both aerobic
>> and anaerobic properties. I thought that it will also give the water a
>> better chance to exchange with the air. Yet I am thinking about using
>> a spraybar for the water return anyways. I like the notion of a
>> canister filter. Yet I heard that they are a bear to clean.
>
> My old Fluval was the pits to clean. I now use Aquaclears and am happy
> with those. I read that the new canisters are easier to clean than the
> old ones were.
>
>> With the larger tank size, othe than requiring a filter or filters of
>> high capacity, are there other considerations?
>
> Weight and accidents. The basement is the safest place for larger tanks.
>
>> Thanks again.
> --
> Koi-Lo....


Have to disagree......
got 2 x 6 foot marines in the living room including one @700L
Ain't no way they are going into the basement with algal cultures while I
have 2 new rays!!!
Big tanks need to be in your face or ya may as well just have a bloody pond
outside......

[Dick]

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:44:04 +1000, "swarvegorilla"
> wrote:

>
>"Koi-Lo" <Disclaimer: I am not the profane Koi-Lo posting from
>Earthlink.net> wrote in message ...
>> *Note: There are two *Koi-Lo's* on the pond and aquaria groups.
>>
>> "violinconcerto" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> Thanks for the advice thus far.
>>>
>>> I am not prepared to drill a hole in my tank because I am not that
>>> brave. If I decide to go that route, I will probably ask my retailer
>>> to do it.
>>
>> What happens if the glass cracks or breaks? Do they have insurance to
>> replace your tank? I personally would never have a tank drilled.
>>
>>> My only experience thus far is a 30 gallon fresh water tank since
>>> Christmas. I am considering placing a larger tank in the family room
>>> -- may a 90 to 110 gallon fresh tank.
>>
>> Think WEIGHT unless it's a basement floor. Weight is definitely something
>> to consider. Also.... should there be an accident where will the water
>> go? I had a 30g split at the side during the night and the damage done to
>> the house was incredible. That included ruined carpeting on the main
>> floor to parts of the ceiling in the basement falling down. :-(
>>
>>> The reason of quoting the wet/dry filter is that it has both aerobic
>>> and anaerobic properties. I thought that it will also give the water a
>>> better chance to exchange with the air. Yet I am thinking about using
>>> a spraybar for the water return anyways. I like the notion of a
>>> canister filter. Yet I heard that they are a bear to clean.
>>
>> My old Fluval was the pits to clean. I now use Aquaclears and am happy
>> with those. I read that the new canisters are easier to clean than the
>> old ones were.
>>
>>> With the larger tank size, othe than requiring a filter or filters of
>>> high capacity, are there other considerations?
>>
>> Weight and accidents. The basement is the safest place for larger tanks.
>>
>>> Thanks again.
>> --
>> Koi-Lo....
>
>
>Have to disagree......
>got 2 x 6 foot marines in the living room including one @700L
>Ain't no way they are going into the basement with algal cultures while I
>have 2 new rays!!!
>Big tanks need to be in your face or ya may as well just have a bloody pond
>outside......
>
I agree, I put my tanks in most of the rooms of my house. I sure
wouldn't want to tuck them into a room where I couldn't see them.

The large, heavy tank question has been discussed at length in the
past. It is just reasonable to consider if your room construction can
support a ton over a small area of floor. My floors are concrete, no
serious problem. If your house is big enough to have these tanks,
chances are the construction is strong enough. However, considering
the costs involved isn't it wise to consider the stresses before
committing the money?

dick

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"swarvegorilla" > wrote in message
u...
>
> "Koi-Lo" <Disclaimer: I am not the profane Koi-Lo posting from
> Earthlink.net> wrote in message ...
>> *Note: There are two *Koi-Lo's* on the pond and aquaria groups.
>>
>> "violinconcerto" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> Thanks for the advice thus far.
>>>
>>> I am not prepared to drill a hole in my tank because I am not that
>>> brave. If I decide to go that route, I will probably ask my retailer
>>> to do it.
>>
>> What happens if the glass cracks or breaks? Do they have insurance to
>> replace your tank? I personally would never have a tank drilled.
>>
>>> My only experience thus far is a 30 gallon fresh water tank since
>>> Christmas. I am considering placing a larger tank in the family room
>>> -- may a 90 to 110 gallon fresh tank.
>>
>> Think WEIGHT unless it's a basement floor. Weight is definitely
>> something to consider. Also.... should there be an accident where will
>> the water go? I had a 30g split at the side during the night and the
>> damage done to the house was incredible. That included ruined carpeting
>> on the main floor to parts of the ceiling in the basement falling down.
>> :-(
>>
>>> The reason of quoting the wet/dry filter is that it has both aerobic
>>> and anaerobic properties. I thought that it will also give the water a
>>> better chance to exchange with the air. Yet I am thinking about using
>>> a spraybar for the water return anyways. I like the notion of a
>>> canister filter. Yet I heard that they are a bear to clean.
>>
>> My old Fluval was the pits to clean. I now use Aquaclears and am happy
>> with those. I read that the new canisters are easier to clean than the
>> old ones were.
>>
>>> With the larger tank size, othe than requiring a filter or filters of
>>> high capacity, are there other considerations?
>>
>> Weight and accidents. The basement is the safest place for larger tanks.
>>
>>> Thanks again.
>> --
>> Koi-Lo....
>
====================================
> Have to disagree......
> got 2 x 6 foot marines in the living room including one @700L

Lets hope none "fail" as did my old 30Long. As I said, the damage done to
the house and basement was considerable.

> Ain't no way they are going into the basement with algal cultures while I
> have 2 new rays!!!

Gotcha! :-))

> Big tanks need to be in your face or ya may as well just have a bloody
> pond outside......
--
Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Rude or obscene messages posted by my impersonator.
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>




>
>

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>>
> I agree, I put my tanks in most of the rooms of my house. I sure
> wouldn't want to tuck them into a room where I couldn't see them.

I was assuming he uses his basement to hang out as we and most of our
friends did. We spent as much time in our basement (warmer in winter and
cooler in summer) as we did upstairs. I wish I had a basement where I live
now.

> The large, heavy tank question has been discussed at length in the
> past. It is just reasonable to consider if your room construction can
> support a ton over a small area of floor. My floors are concrete, no
> serious problem. If your house is big enough to have these tanks,
> chances are the construction is strong enough. However, considering
> the costs involved isn't it wise to consider the stresses before
> committing the money?

He can always add a few floor jacks under where the large tanks are, in his
basement, if it's unfinished.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[-ED]

On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 09:50:53 -0500, Koi-Lo <None> wrote:

> *Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
>
> "Dick" > wrote in message
> ...
>>>
>> I agree, I put my tanks in most of the rooms of my house. I sure
>> wouldn't want to tuck them into a room where I couldn't see them.
>
> I was assuming he uses his basement to hang out as we and most of our
> friends did. We spent as much time in our basement (warmer in winter
> and cooler in summer) as we did upstairs. I wish I had a basement where
> I live now.
>
>> The large, heavy tank question has been discussed at length in the
>> past. It is just reasonable to consider if your room construction can
>> support a ton over a small area of floor. My floors are concrete, no
>> serious problem. If your house is big enough to have these tanks,
>> chances are the construction is strong enough. However, considering
>> the costs involved isn't it wise to consider the stresses before
>> committing the money?
>
> He can always add a few floor jacks under where the large tanks are, in
> his basement, if it's unfinished.

Practical and Froogle. Common sense reigns again.

--
Save The Planet For Another Day...

[swarvegorilla]

"-ED" > wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 09:50:53 -0500, Koi-Lo <None> wrote:

> *Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
>
> "Dick" > wrote in message
> ...
>>>
>> I agree, I put my tanks in most of the rooms of my house. I sure
>> wouldn't want to tuck them into a room where I couldn't see them.
>
> I was assuming he uses his basement to hang out as we and most of our
> friends did. We spent as much time in our basement (warmer in winter and
> cooler in summer) as we did upstairs. I wish I had a basement where I
> live now.
>
>> The large, heavy tank question has been discussed at length in the
>> past. It is just reasonable to consider if your room construction can
>> support a ton over a small area of floor. My floors are concrete, no
>> serious problem. If your house is big enough to have these tanks,
>> chances are the construction is strong enough. However, considering
>> the costs involved isn't it wise to consider the stresses before
>> committing the money?
>
> He can always add a few floor jacks under where the large tanks are, in
> his basement, if it's unfinished.

->Practical and Froogle. Common sense reigns again.

Just never had a prob before is all. setup a lot of tanks now and had a lot
of people look at floor and say where is good and where not.
but yea depends on your floor, maybe we just build well over here or
something but I gotta house of heavy tanks and ya I flooded a few things in
me time.
but floods are part of the fun, get a bath level alarm and go play xbox 360.
if i had a cellar it would be a playpen for me birds.
heh heh

[swarvegorilla]

Ok consider that aeration, biological filtration and mechanical filtration
are not the same thing.
All three become more seperatly important in a big tank.
As do large ornaments, little ones look ****e.
taller plants, more powerful lights.
also a sturdy stand and thicker styrofoam.
You may need bigger powerboards to accomadate timers and more plugs.
Bigger tanks also cost more to heat, take longer to heat up and more need
more decholinator and medications or salt to treat.
Bigger tanks use more expensive equipment espec marine.
But they are stable, and can take more fish.
But little fish in big tanks is the secret to happy fish.

All Filters are good as long as the amount of bacteria growing on them
matches the amount of food being fed.
Maintain bacteria cultures by rinsing filter media with water from the fish
tank.
Big tanks with big stands have big areas to hide equipment, which I like.
4foot tanks can take advantage of commercial and cheap 4 foot light fittings
and tubes, while 4x2x2 and 6x2x2, infact any ?x2x2 can take advantage of2x4
timber for construction of quick easy stands.

not exactly sure what your question was but heck this killed some time I
spose...
:P



"violinconcerto" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I meant in the FILTER DEPARTMENT. Sorry, my oversight.
>