Qs from Newbie Pond/Koi keeper

[Kelly]

Hello everyone,

My fiancee and I made the mistake of "wanting a pond and wanting it
now" and ran out and bought a pre-formed liner, pump, and biological
filter/waterfall and four koi fish. I dug the hole and we set the
whole thing up.

The big problem is.... we were dumb and rushed into it. And
immediately we began to run into problems. WIthin a week after setting
up our 125 gallon pond, we wanted it bigger. This is mostly for the
kois sake after we read that one full grown koi needs as much as 300
gallons of water. We have one 8 inch koi, and three 4 inch koi.

Ammonia levels quickly rose along with the nitrite. The ammonia levels
are now under control and reading zero. The pond has been "cycling"
for 2 weeks now. But the nitrite levels are still out of control.
For the past 3 days I have been doing 15% water changes, to no avail.
Today I checked the levels and they are 1.0 mg/L. Even higher than
yesterdays reading. I did a 50% water change and they are down to 0.3
mg/L.

Today I have also noticed that two out of the four koi are scratching
themselves on the pump and plant baskets.

Here are my questions,

Are there any other strategies to reduce the nitrite levels other than
being patient? Enough bacteria has been added.... I used this really
expensive "Microbial Lift" stuff from the fish shop. The guy there
said I was doing everything right in the meantime.

Should I be concerned about the fish scratching themselves today?
Could this be caused by the nitrite levels?

I really want my koi fish to make it through until next year when we
can do things right. They were expensive and I would hate to lose
them.

Thanks for any advice!

Kelly

[Cathy Lee]

"Kelly" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello everyone,
>
> My fiancee and I made the mistake of "wanting a pond and wanting it
> now" and ran out and bought a pre-formed liner, pump, and biological
> filter/waterfall and four koi fish. I dug the hole and we set the
> whole thing up.
>
> The big problem is.... we were dumb and rushed into it. And
> immediately we began to run into problems. WIthin a week after setting
> up our 125 gallon pond, we wanted it bigger. This is mostly for the
> kois sake after we read that one full grown koi needs as much as 300
> gallons of water. We have one 8 inch koi, and three 4 inch koi.

You have too many fish in such a small body of water. The shop keeper
should have told you this before selling you koi.

> Ammonia levels quickly rose along with the nitrite. The ammonia levels
> are now under control and reading zero. The pond has been "cycling"
> for 2 weeks now. But the nitrite levels are still out of control.
> For the past 3 days I have been doing 15% water changes, to no avail.
> Today I checked the levels and they are 1.0 mg/L. Even higher than
> yesterdays reading. I did a 50% water change and they are down to 0.3
> mg/L.

Please reconsider and trade the koi for a few goldfish.

> Today I have also noticed that two out of the four koi are scratching
> themselves on the pump and plant baskets.

Parasites most likely.......

> Here are my questions,
> Are there any other strategies to reduce the nitrite levels other than
> being patient? Enough bacteria has been added.... I used this really
> expensive "Microbial Lift" stuff from the fish shop. The guy there
> said I was doing everything right in the meantime.

Microbial Lift for cycling? The people here recommend BioSpira. You may
want to try a different shop. What kind of filter are you using for this
small pond?

> Should I be concerned about the fish scratching themselves today?
> Could this be caused by the nitrite levels?

You can Google pond+cycling and parasites. It would save people a lot of
typing.

> I really want my koi fish to make it through until next year when we
> can do things right. They were expensive and I would hate to lose
> them.
>
> Thanks for any advice!
>
> Kelly
>
--

[[email protected] (Koi-Lo]

Y'all all ****ed up big time, and if you listen to any advice you get
in this or any other usenet forum your ****ing up even more.......

On Tue, 30 May 2006 20:16:48 -0500, "Cathy Lee" >
wrote:
>><>
>><>"Kelly" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>><>> Hello everyone,
>><>>
>><>> My fiancee and I made the mistake of "wanting a pond and wanting it
>><>> now" and ran out and bought a pre-formed liner, pump, and biological
>><>> filter/waterfall and four koi fish. I dug the hole and we set the
>><>> whole thing up.
>><>>
>><>> The big problem is.... we were dumb and rushed into it.

So your all a bunch of dumb ****s! Just like Carol and a few others in
these groups.
And
>><>> immediately we began to run into problems. WIthin a week after setting
>><>> up our 125 gallon pond, we wanted it bigger. This is mostly for the
>><>> kois sake after we read that one full grown koi needs as much as 300
>><>> gallons of water. We have one 8 inch koi, and three 4 inch koi.

Sandwhich size, and they are tasty if grilled and rubbed with garlic
and lemon
>><>
>><>You have too many fish in such a small body of water. The shop keeper
>><>should have told you this before selling you koi.

Why would a shop keeper telyou jack ****, they make money off assholes
and impulse buyers like you all aare...They seen a pair of dumbasses
coming..........
>><>
>><>> Ammonia levels quickly rose along with the nitrite. The ammonia levels
>><>> are now under control and reading zero. The pond has been "cycling"
>><>> for 2 weeks now. But the nitrite levels are still out of control.
>><>> For the past 3 days I have been doing 15% water changes, to no avail.
>><>> Today I checked the levels and they are 1.0 mg/L. Even higher than
>><>> yesterdays reading.
And I w9onder why ..hm, maybe a new method of cycling........uyour
trying to invent......dumbasses

I did a 50% water change and they are down to 0.3
>><>> mg/L.
>><>

>><>
>><>> Today I have also noticed that two out of the four koi are scratching
>><>> themselves on the pump and plant baskets.

Probbaly ammonia burn or the crabs, as crabs itch like hell,,,,,Ask
CArol Gulley, how bad crabs (crotch crickets) itch.
>><>
>><>Parasites most likely.......yea crabs or crotch crickets
>><>
>><>> Here are my questions,
>><>> Are there any other strategies to reduce the nitrite levels other than
>><>> being patient? Enough bacteria has been added.... I used this really
>><>> expensive "Microbial Lift" stuff from the fish shop. The guy there
>><>> said I was doing everything right in the meantime.

A day late and a dollar short....hopefully your not of the profession
that is in health care
>><>
>><>Microbial Lift for cycling? The people here recommend BioSpira. You may
>><>want to try a different shop. What kind of filter are you using for this
>><>small pond?

Sure spend that money and listen to a lfs that ****ed you to begin
with, They love folks like you......easy toget money off of, and
always have a reason why "YOU" ****ed up.
>><>
>><>> Should I be concerned about the fish scratching themselves today?
>><>> Could this be caused by the nitrite levels?
>><>
Naw, just dump a container of Gold BOnd crab powder in the pond, they
wil be fine.
>><>You can Google pond+cycling and parasites. It would save people a lot of
>><>typing.


Evidently CAthy Lee is too ****ing tires to reply but wants to see her
name posted out there in a dead or dying group like Rec.ponds is.
>><>
>><>> I really want my koi fish to make it through until next year when we
>><>> can do things right. They were expensive and I would hate to lose
>><>> them.

Yea, then yu can graduate to a 160 gal preform pond and a 325 gph
Little giant pump and buy some 24 inch koi and add a half dozen
goldfish as well.
>><>>
>><>> Thanks for any advice!

You'll get the ****ing bill trust me, its alreadyin the mail. This
group belongs to CArol Gulley of Mt. Juliet, TN and she says its a
money maker espeically when she harvests email addresses off it and
the other aquaria groups she owns or trashed.
>><>>
>><>> Kelly
>><>>

[Kelly]

Cathy Lee wrote:

>
> You have too many fish in such a small body of water. The shop keeper
> should have told you this before selling you koi.

Yes, I know this. But we won't be able to upgrade until next year.
What I am asking is, how can I make this work in the meantime?????


>
> Please reconsider and trade the koi for a few goldfish.

You can't just "trade in" $80.00 worth of fish. Again, advice to make
this work until next year would be appreciated.

>

>
> Microbial Lift for cycling? The people here recommend BioSpira. You may
> want to try a different shop. What kind of filter are you using for this
> small pond?

It is a large biological filter (good for up to 500 gallons) that's
bottom fed by the pump and then the water flows out the top by
waterfall. The substrate is lava rock.

>
> > Should I be concerned about the fish scratching themselves today?
> > Could this be caused by the nitrite levels?
>
> You can Google pond+cycling and parasites. It would save people a lot of
> typing.

Gee thanks for the tip, I've already done that. I wanted specific
advice for my personal situation and that's why I came here.
Evidently, this was a mistake. I don't see very many helpful people
around here. Just a bunch of trolls. Newsgroups have really gone
downhill over the years.

Thanks anyway.

Kelly

[~ janj]

>> Today I have also noticed that two out of the four koi are scratching
>> themselves on the pump and plant baskets.
>
>Parasites most likely.......

Possibly, but nitrites can also cause flashing/scratching.

>> Here are my questions,
>> Are there any other strategies to reduce the nitrite levels other than
>> being patient? Enough bacteria has been added.... I used this really
>> expensive "Microbial Lift" stuff from the fish shop. The guy there
>> said I was doing everything right in the meantime.

You should put some salt in so the nitrite doesn't cause brown blood
disease. About 1 lb of kosher salt (no anti-caking additives or iodine)
should do it. This will also ease the flashing (if due to nitrite). ~ jan
--------------
See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are two *Koi-Lo's* on the pond and aquaria groups

"Kelly" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello everyone,
>
> My fiancee and I made the mistake of "wanting a pond and wanting it
> now" and ran out and bought a pre-formed liner, pump, and biological
> filter/waterfall and four koi fish. I dug the hole and we set the
> whole thing up.
>
> The big problem is.... we were dumb and rushed into it. And
> immediately we began to run into problems. WIthin a week after setting
> up our 125 gallon pond, we wanted it bigger. This is mostly for the
> kois sake after we read that one full grown koi needs as much as 300
> gallons of water. We have one 8 inch koi, and three 4 inch koi.
>
> Ammonia levels quickly rose along with the nitrite. The ammonia levels
> are now under control and reading zero. The pond has been "cycling"
> for 2 weeks now. But the nitrite levels are still out of control.
> For the past 3 days I have been doing 15% water changes, to no avail.
> Today I checked the levels and they are 1.0 mg/L. Even higher than
> yesterdays reading. I did a 50% water change and they are down to 0.3
> mg/L.

I would keep doing the partial water changes until the cycle finishes. Feed
them lightly and keep checking the water parameters.

> Today I have also noticed that two out of the four koi are scratching
> themselves on the pump and plant baskets.

Parasites or something in the water.

> Here are my questions,

> Are there any other strategies to reduce the nitrite levels other than
> being patient? Enough bacteria has been added.... I used this really
> expensive "Microbial Lift" stuff from the fish shop. The guy there
> said I was doing everything right in the meantime.
>
> Should I be concerned about the fish scratching themselves today?
> Could this be caused by the nitrite levels?

I've never seen it happen with my koi and GF but others claim it can cause
scratching.

> I really want my koi fish to make it through until next year when we
> can do things right. They were expensive and I would hate to lose
> them.

Keep up the partial water changes and feed lightly. If they keep scratching
I would think parasites.

> Thanks for any advice!
>
> Kelly
>
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Reading Headers:
http://tinyurl.com/amm9s
Rude or obscene messages posted by my impersonator.
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are two *Koi-Lo's* on the pond and aquaria groups

"Kelly" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Cathy Lee wrote:
>
>>
>> You have too many fish in such a small body of water. The shop keeper
>> should have told you this before selling you koi.
>
> Yes, I know this. But we won't be able to upgrade until next year.
> What I am asking is, how can I make this work in the meantime?????

Yes, with a lot of partial water changes and good filtration and aeration.
:-)

> You can't just "trade in" $80.00 worth of fish. Again, advice to make
> this work until next year would be appreciated.

> It is a large biological filter (good for up to 500 gallons) that's
> bottom fed by the pump and then the water flows out the top by
> waterfall. The substrate is lava rock.

Sounds adaquate.

>> > Should I be concerned about the fish scratching themselves today?
>> > Could this be caused by the nitrite levels?

Some people claim so but I haven't seen mine scratch when a tank or pool was
cycling. Only when there were parasites.

>> You can Google pond+cycling and parasites. It would save people a lot of
>> typing.

> Gee thanks for the tip, I've already done that. I wanted specific
> advice for my personal situation and that's why I came here.
> Evidently, this was a mistake. I don't see very many helpful people
> around here. Just a bunch of trolls. Newsgroups have really gone
> downhill over the years.

Yes, they have. That's because ISPs don't enforce their abuse rules
anymore, so Usenet is slowly becoming Uselessnet sad to say.

--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Rude or obscene messages posted by my impersonator.
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Roy]

Your well advised not to pay any attention to Koi Lo as she is nothing
but the main problem why there is so little content or help onthis and
other groups. Koi lo aka Carol Gulley is a problematic slanderous old
lady with a thorn up her backside...and actually despises anyone that
has anythng thing more than she has.....

Listen to Janj, steer clear of Koi Lo and her numerous nyms, like
Cathy Lee, Charlie etc etc etc.

Oh she is well know at harvesting emails from these groups and selling
them to spammers, and odds are she ahs already harvested yours so yu
could now be on the receiving end of tons fo spam and subscriptions to
various x rated stuff....

On 31 May 2006 04:12:05 -0700, "Kelly" >
wrote:
>><>
>><>xxxxxx wrote:
>><>
>><>> Keep up the partial water changes and feed lightly. If they keep scratching
>><>> I would think parasites.
>><>
>><>Thank you for your helpful reply. I appreciate that.
>><>
>><>I did catch my 8 inch koi to take a look at her, and there were no
>><>obvious lesions or visible parasites on her body. Here's hoping....
>><>
>><>Kelly

[Hal]

On 30 May 2006 17:35:51 -0700, "Kelly" >
wrote:

>I really want my koi fish to make it through until next year when we
>can do things right. They were expensive and I would hate to lose
>them.

Jan's suggestion of salt is a good one.

Is there a possibility of setting up a kiddies pool next to the pond
and diverting the flow from the waterfall into it and then into the
pond? The kiddies pool would give you a place to add lots of plants
that remove nitrates from the water.

Regards,

Hal

[[email protected] (Koi-Lo]

Just dumpt the ****ing things, they are too god damed cheap to but
than **** arund with water changes and buy8ing a kiddie pool and all
the other ****ing crap. Dump the bitches and buy sopme more ifyu want
them. OIrts even cheaper to dump em than feed em.....they can go an
entire summer easily withut buying them any food, then toss em on the
compost pile in the winter, or watch em freeze into the ice.or go
spend $$$$$$ on a heater and shelter for the pond,,,,,fish are such a
****ing waste. Just like CArol and a a few of her friends.......

On Wed, 31 May 2006 09:43:09 -0400, Hal > wrote:
>><>On 30 May 2006 17:35:51 -0700, "Kelly" >
>><>wrote:
>><>
>><>>I really want my koi fish to make it through until next year when we
>><>>can do things right. They were expensive and I would hate to lose
>><>>them.
>><>
>><>Jan's suggestion of salt is a good one.
>><>
>><>Is there a possibility of setting up a kiddies pool next to the pond
>><>and diverting the flow from the waterfall into it and then into the
>><>pond? The kiddies pool would give you a place to add lots of plants
>><>that remove nitrates from the water.
>><>
>><>Regards,
>><>
>><>Hal

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Hal" > wrote in message
...
> On 30 May 2006 17:35:51 -0700, "Kelly" >
> wrote:
>
>>I really want my koi fish to make it through until next year when we
>>can do things right. They were expensive and I would hate to lose
>>them.
>
> Jan's suggestion of salt is a good one.
>
> Is there a possibility of setting up a kiddies pool next to the pond
> and diverting the flow from the waterfall into it and then into the
> pond? The kiddies pool would give you a place to add lots of plants
> that remove nitrates from the water.
>
> Regards,
>
> Hal
============================
This is an excellent idea if they have the space. These pools are only $10
and last for a at least a year. That would give them time to dig their
larger pond and get a good size bunch of plants going. The scratching would
have me concerned. Since losing almost every koi I had to ulcer disease a
few years back, I'm a bit paranoid about parasites now.....
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at:
http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[~ janj]

>I did catch my 8 inch koi to take a look at her, and there were no
>obvious lesions or visible parasites on her body. Here's hoping....
>
>Kelly

It takes a microscope to see most of the koi parasites, and even than some
are so tiny that you've got to know what you're doing and what you're
looking for. I think you're just suffering new-pond-cycle syndrome.

I liked Hal's idea with the kiddy pool + plants. Any possible way you could
do that?

Keep us posted, and don't mind the resident troll, use your killfilters.
~ jan
--------------
See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[[email protected] (Koi-Lo]

Not if your name is CArol Gulley. She don't need any stinking scope to
see the sites onher fish. Scopes are for common folks not gurus like
her..........
Yea, kill file me, Koi-Lo, Charlie, Cathy Lee, I have a heap of nyms I
use to evade dumbasses.........

Regards

carol aka koi lo


On Wed, 31 May 2006 07:28:48 -0700, ~ janj >
wrote:
>><>>I did catch my 8 inch koi to take a look at her, and there were no
>><>>obvious lesions or visible parasites on her body. Here's hoping....
>><>>
>><>>Kelly
>><>
>><>It takes a microscope to see most of the koi parasites, and even than some
>><>are so tiny that you've got to know what you're doing and what you're
>><>looking for. I think you're just suffering new-pond-cycle syndrome.
>><>
>><>I liked Hal's idea with the kiddy pool + plants. Any possible way you could
>><>do that?
>><>
>><>Keep us posted, and don't mind the resident troll, use your killfilters.
>><> ~ jan
>><>--------------
>><>See my ponds and filter design:
>><>www.jjspond.us
>><>
>><> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
>><> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
>><> To e-mail see website

[Go Fig]

In article om>,
Kelly > wrote:

> Koi-Lo wrote:
>
> > Keep up the partial water changes and feed lightly. If they keep scratching
> > I would think parasites.
>
> Thank you for your helpful reply. I appreciate that.
>
> I did catch my 8 inch koi to take a look at her, and there were no
> obvious lesions or visible parasites on her body. Here's hoping....

Its doubtful that you can see'm.

Treat w/ Dyacide, used for years and years and with a 'half-life' of
about 3 days its a ideal med.

The stress from the water quality needs to be addressed, after the
dyacide treatment... consider a bacteria product like Marc Weiss
'bacter vital'

jay
Wed May 31, 2006



jay
Wed May 31, 2006


>
> Kelly
>

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Kelly" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> The problem I have is nitrite.... not nitrate as Hal said.

That will diminish as you pond finishes cycling. Keep it under control with
those partial water changes. Adding salt may help as Jan suggested, but
some plants resent salt and turn yellow, so be careful.

> I have the top of the biological filter/waterfall planted full of
> plants. I also have two baskets of plants in the pond. I also have
> oxygenators in the bottom of the pond. These include:
>
> Pennywort
> Water hyacinth
> Water Parsley
> Water mint
> Ogon Sweetflag
>
> and a few others I forget the names of!

That's good. Remember to give them some extra potash (potassium) as your
fish wont supply that. I get it at a Nursery in a nearby town.

> I also have something else today that has complicated my situation.
>
> My largest koi is apparently female because there are thousands of eggs
> suddenly covering the sides and plants of my
> pond!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> How do I get rid of them?

They'll eat most of them. Are you sure they're koi eggs and not newt, frog
or toad eggs? :-)

> I tried scraping them off but this just makes a mess, and I don't want
> to ruin the water any more. The eggs are REALLY stuck on the sides and
> are hard to come off. Should I just leave them?

Koi eggs should come off rather easily. I'm surprised they didn't eat all
those you can see. They may not be koi eggs. Your koi are awfully small to
be breeding. Maybe someone else can suggest how you can handle these eggs.

> I don't know if my other fish are old enough to fertilize. They are
> only 4 inches long.

I doubt the eggs were fertilized. They'll turn white and disintegrate (if
koi eggs). Did you see breeding activity?
>
> HELP!

--
Koi-Lo....
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Kelly]

Koi-Lo wrote:

> >
> > My largest koi is apparently female because there are thousands of eggs
> > suddenly covering the sides and plants of my
> > pond!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > How do I get rid of them?
>
> They'll eat most of them. Are you sure they're koi eggs and not newt, frog
> or toad eggs? :-)

I'm pretty sure. I scoured the internet for pictures of koi eggs and
mine look identical. Aren't frog/toad eggs blackish in a gel like
substance? These eggs in my pond are EVERYWHERE. And my largest koi
(8 inches) did suddenly look less round.

>
> > I tried scraping them off but this just makes a mess, and I don't want
> > to ruin the water any more. The eggs are REALLY stuck on the sides and
> > are hard to come off. Should I just leave them?
>
> Koi eggs should come off rather easily. I'm surprised they didn't eat all
> those you can see. They may not be koi eggs. Your koi are awfully small to
> be breeding. Maybe someone else can suggest how you can handle these eggs.

They are probably not very hungry because of the nitrite levels. After
my 50% water change yesterday, the levels were again sky high at over
1.0 mg/L today. I did another 50% water change tonight. The ones on
the plants came off easily, but not the ones on the sides of the
pre-form.

> > I don't know if my other fish are old enough to fertilize. They are
> > only 4 inches long.
>
> I doubt the eggs were fertilized. They'll turn white and disintegrate (if
> koi eggs). Did you see breeding activity?

Not really. Since yesterday they have been pre-occupied scratching
themselves against the pump (swimming above it real fast and then
turning on their side). I did notice tonight that some of the eggs are
turning white.

I think I'll go tomorrow and get something for parasites. I'm in
Canada so I can't find the dyacide.... but I will look for something
comparable. Any suggestions?

Kelly

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Kelly" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>>
>> They'll eat most of them. Are you sure they're koi eggs and not newt,
>> frog
>> or toad eggs? :-)
>
> I'm pretty sure. I scoured the internet for pictures of koi eggs and
> mine look identical. Aren't frog/toad eggs blackish in a gel like
> substance? These eggs in my pond are EVERYWHERE. And my largest koi
> (8 inches) did suddenly look less round.

Yes, frog, toad and newt eggs are laid in a jell, are dark and don't "stick"
to the sides. These must be koi eggs.

>> Koi eggs should come off rather easily. I'm surprised they didn't eat
>> all
>> those you can see. They may not be koi eggs. Your koi are awfully small
>> to
>> be breeding. Maybe someone else can suggest how you can handle these
>> eggs.

> They are probably not very hungry because of the nitrite levels. After
> my 50% water change yesterday, the levels were again sky high at over
> 1.0 mg/L today. I did another 50% water change tonight. The ones on
> the plants came off easily, but not the ones on the sides of the
> pre-form.

Well, no one can say for sure, but they probably wont hatch since the others
are so small - but you never know. If they do hatch you can always net them
out to another container.

>> > I don't know if my other fish are old enough to fertilize. They are
>> > only 4 inches long.
>>
>> I doubt the eggs were fertilized. They'll turn white and disintegrate
>> (if
>> koi eggs). Did you see breeding activity?

> Not really. Since yesterday they have been pre-occupied scratching
> themselves against the pump (swimming above it real fast and then
> turning on their side). I did notice tonight that some of the eggs are
> turning white.

I wouldn't worry about the eggs at this point. The scratching would have me
very concerned. Others may disagree but I would get a broad spectrum
parasite killer and treat them to be on the safe side. Many are made for
pond fish. The problem is, you don't know what parasite to treat for
without scrapings. With koi, ulcer disease is always a threat where
parasites are concerned.

> I think I'll go tomorrow and get something for parasites. I'm in
> Canada so I can't find the dyacide.... but I will look for something
> comparable. Any suggestions?

I use Potassium Permanganate (called PP) but you must be very careful with
this one. I also use Quick-Cure and/or Aquara-Sol which are safer, but
don't get all the parasites out there. If you can't get PP, then go for the
Quick-Cure. Unfortunately both may effect your biological filter to some
degree. Salt is less likely to do that but you'd have to remove all the
plants. Salt gets most parasites.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[[email protected] (Koi-Lo]

Yet anopther dumb assed Canuck ****ing up their fish.Y'all need to
screwing polar bears and making maple syrup....



On 31 May 2006 17:33:12 -0700, "Kelly" >
wrote:
>><>
>><>Koi-Lo wrote:
>><>
>><>> >
>><>> > My largest koi is apparently female because there are thousands of eggs
>><>> > suddenly covering the sides and plants of my
>><>> > pond!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>><>> >
>><>> > How do I get rid of them?
>><>>
>><>> They'll eat most of them. Are you sure they're koi eggs and not newt, frog
>><>> or toad eggs? :-)
>><>
>><>I'm pretty sure. I scoured the internet for pictures of koi eggs and
>><>mine look identical. Aren't frog/toad eggs blackish in a gel like
>><>substance? These eggs in my pond are EVERYWHERE. And my largest koi
>><> (8 inches) did suddenly look less round.
>><>
>><>>
>><>> > I tried scraping them off but this just makes a mess, and I don't want
>><>> > to ruin the water any more. The eggs are REALLY stuck on the sides and
>><>> > are hard to come off. Should I just leave them?
>><>>
>><>> Koi eggs should come off rather easily. I'm surprised they didn't eat all
>><>> those you can see. They may not be koi eggs. Your koi are awfully small to
>><>> be breeding. Maybe someone else can suggest how you can handle these eggs.
>><>
>><>They are probably not very hungry because of the nitrite levels. After
>><>my 50% water change yesterday, the levels were again sky high at over
>><>1.0 mg/L today. I did another 50% water change tonight. The ones on
>><>the plants came off easily, but not the ones on the sides of the
>><>pre-form.
>><>
>><>> > I don't know if my other fish are old enough to fertilize. They are
>><>> > only 4 inches long.
>><>>
>><>> I doubt the eggs were fertilized. They'll turn white and disintegrate (if
>><>> koi eggs). Did you see breeding activity?
>><>
>><>Not really. Since yesterday they have been pre-occupied scratching
>><>themselves against the pump (swimming above it real fast and then
>><>turning on their side). I did notice tonight that some of the eggs are
>><>turning white.
>><>
>><>I think I'll go tomorrow and get something for parasites. I'm in
>><>Canada so I can't find the dyacide.... but I will look for something
>><>comparable. Any suggestions?
>><>
>><>Kelly

[Go Fig]

In article >, Koi-Lo wrote:

> *Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
>
> "Kelly" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Koi-Lo wrote:
> >>
> >> They'll eat most of them. Are you sure they're koi eggs and not newt,
> >> frog
> >> or toad eggs? :-)
> >
> > I'm pretty sure. I scoured the internet for pictures of koi eggs and
> > mine look identical. Aren't frog/toad eggs blackish in a gel like
> > substance? These eggs in my pond are EVERYWHERE. And my largest koi
> > (8 inches) did suddenly look less round.
>
> Yes, frog, toad and newt eggs are laid in a jell, are dark and don't "stick"
> to the sides. These must be koi eggs.
>
> >> Koi eggs should come off rather easily. I'm surprised they didn't eat
> >> all
> >> those you can see. They may not be koi eggs. Your koi are awfully small
> >> to
> >> be breeding. Maybe someone else can suggest how you can handle these
> >> eggs.
>
> > They are probably not very hungry because of the nitrite levels. After
> > my 50% water change yesterday, the levels were again sky high at over
> > 1.0 mg/L today. I did another 50% water change tonight. The ones on
> > the plants came off easily, but not the ones on the sides of the
> > pre-form.
>
> Well, no one can say for sure, but they probably wont hatch since the others
> are so small - but you never know. If they do hatch you can always net them
> out to another container.
>
> >> > I don't know if my other fish are old enough to fertilize. They are
> >> > only 4 inches long.
> >>
> >> I doubt the eggs were fertilized. They'll turn white and disintegrate
> >> (if
> >> koi eggs). Did you see breeding activity?
>
> > Not really. Since yesterday they have been pre-occupied scratching
> > themselves against the pump (swimming above it real fast and then
> > turning on their side). I did notice tonight that some of the eggs are
> > turning white.
>
> I wouldn't worry about the eggs at this point. The scratching would have me
> very concerned. Others may disagree but I would get a broad spectrum
> parasite killer and treat them to be on the safe side. Many are made for
> pond fish. The problem is, you don't know what parasite to treat for
> without scrapings. With koi, ulcer disease is always a threat where
> parasites are concerned.
>
> > I think I'll go tomorrow and get something for parasites. I'm in
> > Canada so I can't find the dyacide.... but I will look for something
> > comparable.

Dylox

> > Any suggestions?


The most important factor is early intervention.

>
> I use Potassium Permanganate (called PP) but you must be very careful with
> this one.

Very.

I just don't think I would ever dose a pond directly but this is the
fastest acting treatment. I'd consider setting up a PP bath in a trash
can or kiddy pool... VERY well oxygenated!

> I also use Quick-Cure and/or Aquara-Sol which are safer, but
> don't get all the parasites out there. If you can't get PP, then go for the
> Quick-Cure. Unfortunately both may effect your biological filter to some
> degree. Salt is less likely to do that but you'd have to remove all the
> plants. Salt gets most parasites.

But at the 3+ppm dose needed her plants will suffer... and I don't like
going from 0-3ppm in one step.

I think your suggested Quick-Cure remedy is the best choice at this
point.

The reality here is the fish are victims of 'instant gratification'...
and the seller, if a single provider, should be ashamed. They
potentially have soured a lifelong customer to a customer of the
nursery, after the pond is filled in. Unfortunately, more and more
'nurseries' are the local pond experts though... go fig.

A biological filter is paramount in this overstocked pond.

That doesn't happen overnight, but that is why I suggested the 'bacter
vital' to seed the biological filter immediately... whatever
'biological filter' means in this case. I'd 5x the amount of W.H. also
and a good dose of Amequel.

Good Luck!

jay
Wed May 31, 2006

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Go Fig" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Koi-Lo wrote:
>> I wouldn't worry about the eggs at this point. The scratching would have
>> me
>> very concerned. Others may disagree but I would get a broad spectrum
>> parasite killer and treat them to be on the safe side. Many are made for
>> pond fish. The problem is, you don't know what parasite to treat for
>> without scrapings. With koi, ulcer disease is always a threat where
>> parasites are concerned.

>> > I think I'll go tomorrow and get something for parasites. I'm in
>> > Canada so I can't find the dyacide.... but I will look for something
>> > comparable.
>
> Dylox
>
>> > Any suggestions?
>
> The most important factor is early intervention.
>>
>> I use Potassium Permanganate (called PP) but you must be very careful
>> with
>> this one.
>
> Very.
>
> I just don't think I would ever dose a pond directly but this is the
> fastest acting treatment. I'd consider setting up a PP bath in a trash
> can or kiddy pool... VERY well oxygenated!

Unfortunately that leaves any parasites in the pond or filter unharmed and
ready to reattach to the fish when they're returned.

>> I also use Quick-Cure and/or Aquara-Sol which are safer, but
>> don't get all the parasites out there. If you can't get PP, then go for
>> the
>> Quick-Cure. Unfortunately both may effect your biological filter to some
>> degree. Salt is less likely to do that but you'd have to remove all the
>> plants. Salt gets most parasites.

> But at the 3+ppm dose needed her plants will suffer... and I don't like
> going from 0-3ppm in one step.

That's why I recommend removing them before adding the first dose of salt.
I wouldn't chance it with any pond plants.

> I think your suggested Quick-Cure remedy is the best choice at this
> point.
> The reality here is the fish are victims of 'instant gratification'...
> and the seller, if a single provider, should be ashamed. They
> potentially have soured a lifelong customer to a customer of the
> nursery, after the pond is filled in. Unfortunately, more and more
> 'nurseries' are the local pond experts though... go fig.

It's that BOTTOM LINE. :-(

> A biological filter is paramount in this overstocked pond.
>
> That doesn't happen overnight, but that is why I suggested the 'bacter
> vital' to seed the biological filter immediately... whatever
> 'biological filter' means in this case. I'd 5x the amount of W.H. also
> and a good dose of Amequel.

On the Aquaria groups they recommended BioSpira. Since I never used any of
these products I can't say if it works better than the other products out
there.

--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at:
http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(š> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[~ janj]

On Wed, 31 May 2006 08:12:45 -0700, Go Fig > wrote:

>> I did catch my 8 inch koi to take a look at her, and there were no
>> obvious lesions or visible parasites on her body. Here's hoping....
>
>Its doubtful that you can see'm.
>
>Treat w/ Dyacide, used for years and years and with a 'half-life' of
>about 3 days its a ideal med.
I respectfully disagree. If the fish aren't doing anything more than
flashing when water quality is knowingly off, only water quality should be
addressed. Unless she has someone who can scrape and scope. Adding meds now
will only stress the koi more, and be wasteful if it isn't even needed or
the right ones. JMO, ~ jan

-----------------
(Do you know where your water quality is?)

[~ janj]

>On 31 May 2006 14:01:39 -0700, "Kelly" > wrote:

>I have the top of the biological filter/waterfall planted full of
>plants. I also have two baskets of plants in the pond. I also have
>oxygenators in the bottom of the pond. These include:
>
>Pennywort
>Water hyacinth
>Water Parsley
>Water mint
>Ogon Sweetflag

None of these plants will be bothered by 0.1% salt solution.... that's a
little more than 1 lb for your 125 gallons.

>My largest koi is apparently female because there are thousands of eggs
>suddenly covering the sides and plants of my >pond!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This could also have been the reason for flashing. I would not medicated at
this time. Water quality is the best thing you can do for these fish at
this time. IMO. Medicating will set the filter back to square one, and
you'll STILL have water quality issues. ~ jan <KISS>
--------------
See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Go Fig]

In article >, ~ janj
> wrote:

> On Wed, 31 May 2006 08:12:45 -0700, Go Fig > wrote:
>
> >> I did catch my 8 inch koi to take a look at her, and there were no
> >> obvious lesions or visible parasites on her body. Here's hoping....
> >
> >Its doubtful that you can see'm.
> >
> >Treat w/ Dyacide, used for years and years and with a 'half-life' of
> >about 3 days its a ideal med.
> I respectfully disagree. If the fish aren't doing anything more than
> flashing when water quality is knowingly off, only water quality should be
> addressed. Unless she has someone who can scrape and scope. Adding meds now
> will only stress the koi more, and be wasteful if it isn't even needed or
> the right ones. JMO, ~ jan
>
Dyacide is routinely used to treat parasites prophylactically because
of its half life. It is far less stressful than PP or Formalyn
(starving the water of O2) and that (and no deaths yet) was my
reasoning.

I further went on to suggest seeding the biological filter to address
the underlying problem... poor water quality.

You omitted that part of my post in your reply.

jay
Wed May 31, 2006



> -----------------
> (Do you know where your water quality is?)

[Derek Broughton]

Kelly wrote:

>
>> ============================
>> This is an excellent idea if they have the space. These pools are only
>> $10
>> and last for a at least a year. That would give them time to dig their
>> larger pond and get a good size bunch of plants going. The scratching
>> would have me concerned. Since losing almost every koi I had to ulcer
>> disease a few years back, I'm a bit paranoid about parasites now.....
>
>
> The problem I have is nitrite.... not nitrate as Hal said.

That's odd - but serious. Nitrite is usually a very transient product of
ammonia breakdown. In an established pond, it generally gets converted to
nitrate as fast as it's created. Assuming this is a caused by recent
spawning activity, the only thing you can really do is water changes & add
salt to limit the harm done by the nitrite.
--
derek

[Go Fig]

In article >, Derek Broughton
> wrote:

> Kelly wrote:
>
> >
> >> ============================
> >> This is an excellent idea if they have the space. These pools are only
> >> $10
> >> and last for a at least a year. That would give them time to dig their
> >> larger pond and get a good size bunch of plants going. The scratching
> >> would have me concerned. Since losing almost every koi I had to ulcer
> >> disease a few years back, I'm a bit paranoid about parasites now.....
> >
> >
> > The problem I have is nitrite.... not nitrate as Hal said.
>
> That's odd - but serious. Nitrite is usually a very transient product of
> ammonia breakdown. In an established pond, it generally gets converted to
> nitrate as fast as it's created. Assuming this is a caused by recent
> spawning activity,

It is a new pond going through a trypical cycle... except koi are not a
good choice to cycle a new pond with.

jay
Thu Jun 01, 2006





> the only thing you can really do is water changes & add
> salt to limit the harm done by the nitrite.

[Kelly]

Go Fig wrote:

> > > The problem I have is nitrite.... not nitrate as Hal said.
> >
> > That's odd - but serious. Nitrite is usually a very transient product of
> > ammonia breakdown. In an established pond, it generally gets converted to
> > nitrate as fast as it's created. Assuming this is a caused by recent
> > spawning activity,
>
> It is a new pond going through a trypical cycle... except koi are not a
> good choice to cycle a new pond with.


Exactly, and a self admitted mistake I made. We will be constructing a
new and much larger pond next season (big enough for 4 koi), but until
then, I"m trying to make this thing work.

Every night this week I have done a 50% water change. Despite my
efforts, I measured the nitrite today and it was OFF THE SCALE at over
3.5 mg/L. Pardon my language but ****!!!

I'm not understanding how it's getting so high so fast even though I'm
doing changes. Well I know what most of you will say, the pond is
SMALL!! Damn.

So I was forced to remove about 80% of the water for fear that my poor
koi will suffer the extreme.

When I'm doing these water changes, should I be adding more of the
commercial bacteria stuff each time? Or will this just make the
situation worse?

I haven't fed the koi in about a week. But now that there are eggs in
the pond they are eating these. I don't want to remove the eggs
because it really stirs up the pond and they are hard to remove.

<sigh>

So what I'm going to have to do is do TWO water changes each day. And
test each day and make sure the nitrite is not rising.

Kelly

[Koi-Lo]

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Kelly" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Exactly, and a self admitted mistake I made. We will be constructing a
> new and much larger pond next season (big enough for 4 koi), but until
> then, I"m trying to make this thing work.

And it should work for now.

> Every night this week I have done a 50% water change. Despite my
> efforts, I measured the nitrite today and it was OFF THE SCALE at over
> 3.5 mg/L. Pardon my language but ****!!!

Allow me to suggest you either take some of the water to a nearby Aquarium
or pond store and let them use their kit to check it - or buy another kit
and do it yourself. It's possible your kit is defective in some way. If
all kits read high then there is something causing this high nitrite.
Neighbors or their children aren't tossing in bread or other snacks to the
fish are they?

> I'm not understanding how it's getting so high so fast even though I'm
> doing changes. Well I know what most of you will say, the pond is
> SMALL!! Damn.
>
> So I was forced to remove about 80% of the water for fear that my poor
> koi will suffer the extreme.
>
> When I'm doing these water changes, should I be adding more of the
> commercial bacteria stuff each time? Or will this just make the
> situation worse?

I read in the Aquarium groups that those products don't do jack-crap for the
nitrogen cycle. They all recommended BioSpira - about $15 if you can find
it.

> I haven't fed the koi in about a week. But now that there are eggs in
> the pond they are eating these. I don't want to remove the eggs
> because it really stirs up the pond and they are hard to remove.

This would have me ripping my hair out........ >:-O

>
> <sigh>
>
> So what I'm going to have to do is do TWO water changes each day. And
> test each day and make sure the nitrite is not rising.

Please try another test kit and be sure nothing is being tossed into your
pond by a neighbor or unthinking child. SOMETHING is driving up those
nitrites if your kit is correct. Also, try and find BioSpira as that
product is said to have the correct bacteria to cycle with.
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at:
http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Kelly]

Koi-Lo wrote:
> *Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
>
> "Kelly" > wrote in message


>
> Allow me to suggest you either take some of the water to a nearby Aquarium
> or pond store and let them use their kit to check it - or buy another kit
> and do it yourself. It's possible your kit is defective in some way. If
> all kits read high then there is something causing this high nitrite.
> Neighbors or their children aren't tossing in bread or other snacks to the
> fish are they?

When I tested the water when I FIRST set up the pond, the nitrite was
reading zero. So I k now it has the potential to read zero! haha.

Although the pond IS in our front yard, it currently has a screen over
top of it because of tree debris (our maple tree is currently dropping
those whirly gig seeds). So unless someone is coming over, taking the
rocks off that are holding down the screen, and dumping stuff in
there.... there's nothing getting in!!! Yes, this is frustrating! But
damn I'm trying.



>
> I read in the Aquarium groups that those products don't do jack-crap for the
> nitrogen cycle. They all recommended BioSpira - about $15 if you can find
> it.

Apparently this is the best stuff in Canada. It costed me enough (40
bucks). And within two days after putting it in, our ammonia levels
dropped to zero. Biospira isn't sold in Canada and an internet search
didn't turn up anyone obviously selling it online. Although by the
time it got here, knowing my luck my pond would suddenly be fine!!!


>
> Please try another test kit and be sure nothing is being tossed into your
> pond by a neighbor or unthinking child. SOMETHING is driving up those
> nitrites if your kit is correct. Also, try and find BioSpira as that
> product is said to have the correct bacteria to cycle with.

I would say the only other possibility is that my fiancee is feeding
them when I'm not home. But I seriously doubt this. I have educated
him on the gravity of our situation and that feeding them will only
make the toxins worse. I will go out and get another test kit (for my
peace of mind).

THanks so much for your advice.

Kelly

[Go Fig]

In article om>,
Kelly > wrote:

> Go Fig wrote:
>
> > > > The problem I have is nitrite.... not nitrate as Hal said.
> > >
> > > That's odd - but serious. Nitrite is usually a very transient product of
> > > ammonia breakdown. In an established pond, it generally gets converted to
> > > nitrate as fast as it's created. Assuming this is a caused by recent
> > > spawning activity,
> >
> > It is a new pond going through a trypical cycle... except koi are not a
> > good choice to cycle a new pond with.
>
>
> Exactly, and a self admitted mistake I made.

Or the shop that sold you the stuff, that said, even a cursory look at
a good pond book would have clued you in though.


> We will be constructing a
> new and much larger pond next season (big enough for 4 koi), but until
> then, I"m trying to make this thing work.

This product works :

http://www.aquariumpros.com/p-MWE53400,MWE.html

I have a lot of experience with ponds and quick cycling them.. a lot!.

As suggested, have some store check your water parameters... these
massive water changes are a threat by itself.

What does 'biological filter' mean specifically in your filter?

Can you post a pic of your set-up ?

>
> Every night this week I have done a 50% water change. Despite my
> efforts, I measured the nitrite today and it was OFF THE SCALE at over
> 3.5 mg/L. Pardon my language but ****!!!

Don't feed the fish!
>
> I'm not understanding how it's getting so high so fast even though I'm
> doing changes. Well I know what most of you will say, the pond is
> SMALL!! Damn.

.... and wat to many fish ;-)
>
> So I was forced to remove about 80% of the water for fear that my poor
> koi will suffer the extreme.

.... be sure to match the pH with the new water.
>
> When I'm doing these water changes, should I be adding more of the
> commercial bacteria stuff

Product name ? Depends on what type of Bio filter you have.


> each time? Or will this just make the
> situation worse?
>
> I haven't fed the koi in about a week. But now that there are eggs in
> the pond they are eating these. I don't want to remove the eggs
> because it really stirs up the pond and they are hard to remove.
>
> <sigh>
>
> So what I'm going to have to do is do TWO water changes each day. And
> test each day and make sure the nitrite is not rising.

Add a lot of Water Hyacinths. Independently check water quality.

jay
Thu Jun 01, 2006


>
> Kelly
>