nitrate levels

[Tracy Bass]

I have a 55g with about 12 plants and 30-40 inches of fish with very
little algae growth. All seemed well until the last few weeks. my ammonia
and nitrite are 0, but my nitrate is thru the roof ( between 300 and 400). I
did a %50 water change 3 days in a row with almost no impact on nitrate
levels. The aquarium is about 2 years old fresh water tropical with 2 170
gph power heads on an UG filter with an aquatech 40-60 power filter. In an
effort to get better bio filtration I ditched the power filter in favor of a
magnum 350 pro with a bio-wheel 60. I removed 1 power head and connect the
input of the 350 to the UGF to try and accelerate the bacteria growth on the
bio-wheel by sucking sum of the bacteria thru the 350 to the bio wheel. I
added the 350 on Friday. Long story short, nitrates are still better than
300. And I'm losing 1-2 fish a week... HELP

[Iain Miller]

"Tracy Bass" > wrote in message
...
> I have a 55g with about 12 plants and 30-40 inches of fish with very
> little algae growth. All seemed well until the last few weeks. my ammonia
> and nitrite are 0, but my nitrate is thru the roof ( between 300 and 400).
I
> did a %50 water change 3 days in a row with almost no impact on nitrate
> levels. The aquarium is about 2 years old fresh water tropical with 2 170
> gph power heads on an UG filter with an aquatech 40-60 power filter. In an
> effort to get better bio filtration I ditched the power filter in favor of
a
> magnum 350 pro with a bio-wheel 60. I removed 1 power head and connect the
> input of the 350 to the UGF to try and accelerate the bacteria growth on
the
> bio-wheel by sucking sum of the bacteria thru the 350 to the bio wheel. I
> added the 350 on Friday. Long story short, nitrates are still better than
> 300. And I'm losing 1-2 fish a week... HELP
>

A few missing bits of information...

You didn't say what your normal water change routine is. If it has been
"minimal" you are probably suffering from "Old Tank Syndrome". When you get
this if you suddenly do a large water change you get a release of Ammonia
which can kill fish - it won't last long if you have healthy bio-filters so
you may not have detected it.

Next steps are to test your tap water & see how much Nitrate is in there &
also get your LFS to test both tap and tank water - you may actually find
you just have a faulty test kit. If its more than a year old its probably
unreliable.

If your Ammonia/Nitrites were at zero you don't need better bio filtering -
my guess is you need to clean your tank a bit more often! If the tank has
been running two years with a UGF there will be a lot of detritus (muck) in
the gravel. I'd suggest you need to do a really deep vacuum & get as much of
it out as you can. Beware though that when you do this, if it is bad, you
can release all sorts of nasties into the tank - especially hydrogen
sulphide (rotten egg smell). You might consider moving the fish out for a
day or two while you sort it out.

I.

[Dinky]

"Tracy Bass" > wrote in message
...
| I have a 55g with about 12 plants and 30-40 inches of fish with
very
| little algae growth. All seemed well until the last few weeks. my
ammonia
| and nitrite are 0, but my nitrate is thru the roof ( between 300
and 400). I
| did a %50 water change 3 days in a row with almost no impact on
nitrate
| levels. The aquarium is about 2 years old fresh water tropical with
2 170
| gph power heads on an UG filter with an aquatech 40-60 power
filter. In an
| effort to get better bio filtration I ditched the power filter in
favor of a
| magnum 350 pro with a bio-wheel 60. I removed 1 power head and
connect the
| input of the 350 to the UGF to try and accelerate the bacteria
growth on the
| bio-wheel by sucking sum of the bacteria thru the 350 to the bio
wheel. I
| added the 350 on Friday. Long story short, nitrates are still
better than
| 300. And I'm losing 1-2 fish a week... HELP
|
|

No amount of filtration will remove nitrates. Nitrites and ammonia,
yes, nitrates no. Nitrates are the end product of the nitrogen cycle,
and in a closed environment like a fish tank, the only way to remove
them is with a regular schedule of water changes. I would begin doing
20-30% changes every other day until nitrates are less than 50 ppm,
then begin doing them weekly. In the long run, the addition of a
couple fast-growing plants like Hornwort will help keep nitrates
down. They require a lot of pruning, but they suck up nitrates pretty
good.

hth


--

billy
--
Need tech help?
http://www.winextra.com
news://news.winextra.com

[Tracy Bass]

> A few missing bits of information...
>
> You didn't say what your normal water change routine is. If it has been
> "minimal" you are probably suffering from "Old Tank Syndrome". When you
get
> this if you suddenly do a large water change you get a release of Ammonia
> which can kill fish - it won't last long if you have healthy bio-filters
so
> you may not have detected it.

%20 and then %40 biweekly (20 then 2 weeks later 40 then 2 weeks later 20)


> Next steps are to test your tap water & see how much Nitrate is in there &
> also get your LFS to test both tap and tank water - you may actually find
> you just have a faulty test kit. If its more than a year old its probably
> unreliable.

Will check Tap water. Test kit expires apr of 2005.


> If your Ammonia/Nitrites were at zero you don't need better bio
filtering -
> my guess is you need to clean your tank a bit more often!

I vacuum the gravel with every water change but will do it with the 350 now
to help with the detritus.


>If the tank has
> been running two years with a UGF there will be a lot of detritus (muck)
in
> the gravel. I'd suggest you need to do a really deep vacuum & get as much
of
> it out as you can. Beware though that when you do this, if it is bad, you
> can release all sorts of nasties into the tank - especially hydrogen
> sulphide (rotten egg smell). You might consider moving the fish out for a
> day or two while you sort it out.

My quarrantine tank is only 10g so I don't have a place to move them to. but
I will be getting rid of the UGF as soon as the bio-wheel matures. Thanks
for the help...

[Iain Miller]

>
> My quarrantine tank is only 10g so I don't have a place to move them to.
but
> I will be getting rid of the UGF as soon as the bio-wheel matures. Thanks
> for the help...
>

You need to be careful in closing down a UGF - personally I would strip the
tank down & clean the gravel out thoroughly or you risk the whole thing
being poisoned as the ick that's already in the gravel rots. No matter how
much you vacuum there will be a huge amount down there after two years. This
is also not helping your Nitrate problem.

There are three ways to kill Nitrates

a) Frequent water changes with water that has very low Nitrates

b) A Nitrate filter - I've used one & they do absolutely strip the nitrates
from the tank but also, I found, stripped the Kh out as well. No Kh leads to
Ph crash so I had to keep adding sodium bicarb - fortunately I have a ph
Meter so it was fairly easy to see when it needed more buffer but generally
not ideal.

c) I have another tank set up now that has rampant plant growth in it. Its
also reasonably well stocked with fish & there is ver little in the way of
Notrate in the tank.

I stopped using UGF's a while ago & when I did I replaced the gravel with
sand - the muck doesn't sink down into it & plants seem to like it.

You could also consider changing to a reverse UGF if you didn't want to do a
complete strip down.

I.

[Tracy Bass]

> I stopped using UGF's a while ago & when I did I replaced the gravel with
> sand - the muck doesn't sink down into it & plants seem to like it.
>
> You could also consider changing to a reverse UGF if you didn't want to do
a
> complete strip down.
>

What would the benefit be in having a reverse flow UGF? Would that starve
the plants? I had thought about that before so that I could aerate the
gravel bed but decided against it..... Wouldn't that blow out all the
detritus into the water in the beginning? Thanks, Tracy

[Iain Miller]

"Tracy Bass" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> > I stopped using UGF's a while ago & when I did I replaced the gravel
with
> > sand - the muck doesn't sink down into it & plants seem to like it.
> >
> > You could also consider changing to a reverse UGF if you didn't want to
do
> a
> > complete strip down.
> >
>
> What would the benefit be in having a reverse flow UGF? Would that starve
> the plants? I had thought about that before so that I could aerate the
> gravel bed but decided against it..... Wouldn't that blow out all the
> detritus into the water in the beginning? Thanks, Tracy
>

I've never used one - the suggestion was as a way to avoid doing a strip
down because I don't think I'd try & turn off a UGF that had been running
for 2 years without a strip down. I doubt it would be any different as far
as your plants are concerned but I do know that I have had much more success
with plants since I stopped using UGFs and started using sand instead of
gravel.

Its not going to blow the detritus out but it should stop any more being
dragged down into the gravel and will keep the UGF alive thereby "stopping
the rot" (!)

If it was me, I'd do the strip down & change it to sand. Besides that, given
that you seem to have pretty sensible water change routine & assuming you
are not massivly over feeding, its probably that detritus that is giving
you your Nitrate problem because there will be so much of it by now. It will
continue to break down with a RUGF and so continue to give off lots of
Nitrates for some time to come.

rgds

I.

I.

[NetMax]

"Iain Miller" > wrote in message
news:qCtec.33$au.4@newsfe1-win...
>
> "Tracy Bass" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > > I stopped using UGF's a while ago & when I did I replaced the
gravel
> with
> > > sand - the muck doesn't sink down into it & plants seem to like it.
> > >
> > > You could also consider changing to a reverse UGF if you didn't
want to
> do
> > a
> > > complete strip down.
> > >
> >
> > What would the benefit be in having a reverse flow UGF? Would that
starve
> > the plants? I had thought about that before so that I could aerate
the
> > gravel bed but decided against it..... Wouldn't that blow out all the
> > detritus into the water in the beginning? Thanks, Tracy
> >
>
> I've never used one - the suggestion was as a way to avoid doing a
strip
> down because I don't think I'd try & turn off a UGF that had been
running
> for 2 years without a strip down. I doubt it would be any different as
far
> as your plants are concerned but I do know that I have had much more
success
> with plants since I stopped using UGFs and started using sand instead
of
> gravel.
>
> Its not going to blow the detritus out but it should stop any more
being
> dragged down into the gravel and will keep the UGF alive thereby
"stopping
> the rot" (!)
>
> If it was me, I'd do the strip down & change it to sand. Besides that,
given
> that you seem to have pretty sensible water change routine & assuming
you
> are not massivly over feeding, its probably that detritus that is
giving
> you your Nitrate problem because there will be so much of it by now. It
will
> continue to break down with a RUGF and so continue to give off lots of
> Nitrates for some time to come.
>
> rgds
>
> I.

A bit of trivia : the conventional symptoms of OTS (old-tank-syndrome)
are a pH crash & ammonia, but then it would be impossible to have any
detectable nitrates. The bacteria responsible would have long gone
dormant (which is why you have high ammonia). However I agree 100% with
Ian. The OP is probably experiencing OTS (excessive accumulation of
decaying organic matter) which has just not manifested itself in the
usual way, because their tank probably has somewhat hard water, and the
kH has not been consumed. The nitrifying bacteria are all doing their
job, resulting in high nitrates. I would not be surprised if the
fish-load in that tank (from a waste production view) was double the
amount of fish actually in the tank). There are some articles out there
on OTS which will need to be updated to include hard-water setups ;~)

NetMax

[Tracy Bass]

> If it was me, I'd do the strip down & change it to sand. Besides that,
given
> that you seem to have pretty sensible water change routine & assuming you
> are not massivly over feeding, its probably that detritus that is giving
> you your Nitrate problem because there will be so much of it by now. It
will
> continue to break down with a RUGF and so continue to give off lots of
> Nitrates for some time to come.
>
> rgds
>
> I.
>
> I.
>
>

Thanks Ian. guess I'll do a strip down after my bio wheel matures. I got the
nitrates down with 3 more %50 water changes.

[Tracy Bass]

> A bit of trivia : the conventional symptoms of OTS (old-tank-syndrome)
> are a pH crash & ammonia, but then it would be impossible to have any
> detectable nitrates. The bacteria responsible would have long gone
> dormant (which is why you have high ammonia). However I agree 100% with
> Ian. The OP is probably experiencing OTS (excessive accumulation of
> decaying organic matter) which has just not manifested itself in the
> usual way, because their tank probably has somewhat hard water, and the
> kH has not been consumed. The nitrifying bacteria are all doing their
> job, resulting in high nitrates. I would not be surprised if the
> fish-load in that tank (from a waste production view) was double the
> amount of fish actually in the tank). There are some articles out there
> on OTS which will need to be updated to include hard-water setups ;~)
>
> NetMax
>
>


You are a fountain of information aren't you. My water does happen to be
hard. Thank you for the info...Tracy