High ammonia, low pH.. (sorry if this is a repeat..)

[MarAzul]

Tried to post this earlier, but haven't seen it yet. Here goes another
attempt..



So just got back into town thursday from a 6 day trip and noticed that the
fish in the 30G are stressing out. The 10 is fine. I had a friend taking
care of the fish and cats while I was gone (and she's had 100G+ cichlid
tanks so she's very familiar with the routines). My parrots are okay (i.e.
alive) and so is my Geophagus jurupari, but that' about it. I lost 4 tiger
barbs, 2 rainbow sharks and 1 bala shark (I think the bala might have gotten
picked on).

So here's what has been done since friday: Parrots and Geo were very
skittish so bought a few more tiger barbs for the tank. Also added 6 Serpae
Tetras from the 10G. The remaining Bala shark has been temporarily rehomed
in the 10G till parrots calm down.
As of saturday morning, all of the tigers are dead. Tetras are peachy keen
though..

Saturday I did a water change on both tanks.. It's been *maybe* a month, if
that, since I did the last one. Did a 20% in both tanks, let them settle
down, then tested the water.

Results..

30G:
Nitrites 0
Ammonia .50 ppm
pH 6.4-6.6

10G:
Nitrites 0
Ammonia 0
pH 7.6

The results in the 10G are normal (tap is 7.6pH). But in the 30... Why would
my pH have dropped like that? I can possibly understand the ammonia. The
fish were kind of ticked that I left and weren't eating all their food. But,
AFAIK, ammonia leans more to the basic side, not acid, so if anything, you'd
think the pH would rise.. I don't get it..

So anyway... For the ammonia, would it be better to keep doing small water
changes over the next few days (as I did this morning), or a big one
tomorrow? For the pH... umm.. anything???

Mar
-------------------------------------
"Did you find the gun?"
"Yeah.. it was in Buffy's underwear drawer. She has nice things."
"Show me."
"Well, I didnt take 'em but there were thongs and regular underpants..."
"Show me then gun!"

-Andrew and The First
-Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[Mean_Chlorine]

"MarAzul" > wrote in message news:<3Dmec.33298$qV6.29074@fed1read04>...

> The results in the 10G are normal (tap is 7.6pH). But in the 30... Why would
> my pH have dropped like that? I can possibly understand the ammonia. The
> fish were kind of ticked that I left and weren't eating all their food. But,
> AFAIK, ammonia leans more to the basic side, not acid, so if anything, you'd
> think the pH would rise.. I don't get it..
>
> So anyway... For the ammonia, would it be better to keep doing small water
> changes over the next few days (as I did this morning), or a big one
> tomorrow? For the pH... umm.. anything???

Ammonia exists in two forms, ammonium and ammonia, and which form
dominates is determined by pH. At low pH, below, say, 7.5, nearly all
the "ammonia" is in the form of AMMONIUM. Ammonium is only weakly
toxic. As pH creeps upwards, a larger and larger proportion of the
ammonium is converted to AMMONIA.
Ammonia is extremely toxic to all fish, far more toxic than, say,
nitrite, and can be lethal at concentrations as low as 1 ppm.

IF your tank had low pH and high levels of ammonium, and you made a
small water change, then YES, I would expect your fish to drop like
flies!
This is because the water change raises pH in the entire aquarium,
while not removing most of the ammonium. Result: ammonia poisoning.

What you should do is therefore NOT small water changes, but LARGE
water changes, as big as possible, in order to get rid of the ammonium
before the pH rises.

The danger of ammonia poisoning is also why one should never raise the
pH of an established aquarium without first doing sizeable water
changes.

[Graham Broadbridge]

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
om...

> The danger of ammonia poisoning is also why one should never raise the
> pH of an established aquarium without first doing sizeable water
> changes.

In an established and cycled aquarium there should be no ammonia in any form
(including ammonium) so there is no problem with raising pH. Of couse pH
changes should be made slowly, no more than .2pH a day.

Graham.

[Mean_Chlorine]

"Graham Broadbridge" > wrote in message >...
> "Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> > The danger of ammonia poisoning is also why one should never raise the
> > pH of an established aquarium without first doing sizeable water
> > changes.
>
> In an established and cycled aquarium there should be no ammonia in any form
> (including ammonium) so there is no problem with raising pH. Of couse pH
> changes should be made slowly, no more than .2pH a day.

If pH's have dropped below 6.5, as it may do in aquaria which are
quitely bubbling away, nitrification slows or even stops, and ammonium
is no longer converted to nitrite/nitrate. Ammonium levels rise, but
you are unlikely to see deaths occur until pH rises.

Also, of course, one can get ammonium in the aquarium by e.g.
overfeeding, adding a number of new fish, or if a fish dies and rots.

[Elizabeth Naime]

Quoth "MarAzul" > on Sun, 11 Apr 2004
18:52:01 -0700,

>Nitrites 0
>Ammonia .50 ppm
>pH 6.4-6.6

Um. I know ammonia is more dangerous at higher pH levels... but doesn't
a rapid or significant drop in pH indicate that the nitrifying bacteria
are running out of carbonates?

I'm more used to goldfish... with goldies and koi, I would look at that
pH and scream, do a water change, add an ammonia binder, and add a
buffer. This would raise the pH but 6.5 is way low *for goldfish* anyway
and would almost always indicate a "pH crash" and nonfunctioning/poorly
functioning nitrifiers. You might look into the pH tolerances of the
fish in this tank and take that into account when deciding how quickly
to raise your pH.

0 nitrites would mean that the bacteria on that side of the cycle are
still working.

I'm not sure about raising the pH quickly for tropicals, or how
dangerous it is to leave the pH that low for tropicals. Something you
should look into. BUT once you get things stabilized, consider adding a
carbonate buffer. Test for total alkalinity (carbonate hardness) and add
buffer when needed to keep pH from heading suddenly south again.


-----------------------------------------
Only know that there is no spork.

[Elizabeth Naime]

Oh! or perhaps, d'Oh!

Check your nitrAtes while you're at it. If you have no nitrates or if
they aren't increasing with time, THAT would be a clue that yes, your
cycle has stopped. And maybe the nitrItes are 0 because no significant
amounts of ammonia are being converted any more either.


-----------------------------------------
Only know that there is no spork.

[Graham Broadbridge]

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
om...
> "Graham Broadbridge" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >
> > > The danger of ammonia poisoning is also why one should never raise the
> > > pH of an established aquarium without first doing sizeable water
> > > changes.
> >
> > In an established and cycled aquarium there should be no ammonia in any
form
> > (including ammonium) so there is no problem with raising pH. Of couse
pH
> > changes should be made slowly, no more than .2pH a day.
>
> If pH's have dropped below 6.5, as it may do in aquaria which are
> quitely bubbling away, nitrification slows or even stops, and ammonium
> is no longer converted to nitrite/nitrate. Ammonium levels rise, but
> you are unlikely to see deaths occur until pH rises.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not :-)

In any case, all of the common test kits measure NH3/NH4 and not pure NH3
and would thus pick up ammonium.

I agree with your statement that pH rises cause Ammonium to become Ammonia,
thats pure chemistry.


Graham.

[NetMax]

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
om...
> "MarAzul" > wrote in message
news:<3Dmec.33298$qV6.29074@fed1read04>...
>
> > The results in the 10G are normal (tap is 7.6pH). But in the 30...
Why would
> > my pH have dropped like that? I can possibly understand the ammonia.
The
> > fish were kind of ticked that I left and weren't eating all their
food. But,
> > AFAIK, ammonia leans more to the basic side, not acid, so if
anything, you'd
> > think the pH would rise.. I don't get it..
> >
> > So anyway... For the ammonia, would it be better to keep doing small
water
> > changes over the next few days (as I did this morning), or a big one
> > tomorrow? For the pH... umm.. anything???
>
> Ammonia exists in two forms, ammonium and ammonia, and which form
> dominates is determined by pH. At low pH, below, say, 7.5, nearly all
> the "ammonia" is in the form of AMMONIUM. Ammonium is only weakly
> toxic. As pH creeps upwards, a larger and larger proportion of the
> ammonium is converted to AMMONIA.
> Ammonia is extremely toxic to all fish, far more toxic than, say,
> nitrite, and can be lethal at concentrations as low as 1 ppm.
>
> IF your tank had low pH and high levels of ammonium, and you made a
> small water change, then YES, I would expect your fish to drop like
> flies!
> This is because the water change raises pH in the entire aquarium,
> while not removing most of the ammonium. Result: ammonia poisoning.
>
> What you should do is therefore NOT small water changes, but LARGE
> water changes, as big as possible, in order to get rid of the ammonium
> before the pH rises.
>
> The danger of ammonia poisoning is also why one should never raise the
> pH of an established aquarium without first doing sizeable water
> changes.

I'm not a big fan of doing large water changes during a pH crash because
of our water. It solves the NH4 to NH3 problem, but around here, our pH
is too high (7.7) so the shock would kill them. Ammo-lock, or any other
product which locks the ammonia into the NH4 state will buy you the time
needed to bring the pH up at a more leisurely pace.

To answer the OP's question, an accumulation of decaying organic matter,
probably in your substrate has depleted your buffer (kH) and had an
acidifying effect on your water (pH crash). The bacteria have started to
go dormant (switching off at between 6.0 and 6.5pH), and your ammonia
accumulated in a non-toxic state. You need to gravel vacuum and do water
changes to gradually restore your kH and raise your pH, keeping one eye
on your ammonia, to be sure it does not turn toxic on you. An
alternative is to move your fish & water into a bare bottom tank. There
you can control all your parameters, away from the substrate's acidifying
influence on your water. Research 'old tank syndrome' if you need more
info. hth

NetMax

[MarAzul]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> To answer the OP's question, an accumulation of decaying organic matter,
> probably in your substrate has depleted your buffer (kH) and had an
> acidifying effect on your water (pH crash). The bacteria have started to
> go dormant (switching off at between 6.0 and 6.5pH), and your ammonia
> accumulated in a non-toxic state. You need to gravel vacuum and do water
> changes to gradually restore your kH and raise your pH, keeping one eye
> on your ammonia, to be sure it does not turn toxic on you. An
> alternative is to move your fish & water into a bare bottom tank. There
> you can control all your parameters, away from the substrate's acidifying
> influence on your water. Research 'old tank syndrome' if you need more
> info. hth
>
> NetMax
>
>

First of all... thank for all the replies.. :)

Friday, 20% water change (and that includes gravel vac) was done, and 10% on
saturday, sunday and monday. Yesterday morning, before water change water
was at:

Ammo - .25 (leaning more towards 0)
pH - 6.8
nitrites - .25 ppm

Several hours after the water change, ammonia was at 0 and pH at 7.0.
Nitrites the same. After todays water change, everything except for pH (7.2)
is the same.

The fish have been much more lively since sunday as well. They're eating
more and are much more active.. So hopefully only a few more days of this to
go.. ((fingers crossed))

Mar
-------------------------------------
"Did you find the gun?"
"Yeah.. it was in Buffy's underwear drawer. She has nice things."
"Show me."
"Well, I didnt take 'em but there were thongs and regular underpants..."
"Show me then gun!"

-Andrew and The First
-Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[Victor Martinez]

NetMax wrote:
> of our water. It solves the NH4 to NH3 problem, but around here, our pH
> is too high (7.7) so the shock would kill them. Ammo-lock, or any other

You call that high? Our water is supposed to come out of the tap with a
pH of at least 9.7 :P

> go dormant (switching off at between 6.0 and 6.5pH), and your ammonia
> accumulated in a non-toxic state. You need to gravel vacuum and do water

Do you know if Seachem's ammonia sensors detect non-toxic ammonium too?


--
Victor Martinez
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[NetMax]

"Victor Martinez" > wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
> > of our water. It solves the NH4 to NH3 problem, but around here, our
pH
> > is too high (7.7) so the shock would kill them. Ammo-lock, or any
other
>
> You call that high? Our water is supposed to come out of the tap with a
> pH of at least 9.7 :P

Ouch. Our municipal treatment plant is convinced that they add enough
caustic soda to bring the tap water to 9.1pH, but all the iron pipes
bring it down to about 7.7pH by the time it reaches us. However, if you
live across the street from the treatment plant, you are not so lucky.

What does your water come out as? ...and how would you manage water of
9.7pH ??? (besides keeping Tanganyikans).

> > go dormant (switching off at between 6.0 and 6.5pH), and your ammonia
> > accumulated in a non-toxic state. You need to gravel vacuum and do
water
>
> Do you know if Seachem's ammonia sensors detect non-toxic ammonium too?

Do you mean their ammonia alert? Yes, they call NH3 free ammonia, and
NH4 ionized ammonia if I understand their web site :
"As little as 0.02 mg/L of free ammonia will produce a greenish hue on
the detector surface. This corresponds to a total ammonia (both ionized
and free ammonia) of 0.25 mg/L in marine water at pH 8.3. In freshwater
at pH 7.0, this corresponds to 3.6 mg/L total ammonia. Free ammonia is
much more toxic than ionized ammonia. As free ammonia, the ALERT color
corresponds to about 0.05 mg/L, ALARM to about 0.2 mg/L, and TOXIC to
about 0.5 mg/L."

NetMax


>
> --
> Victor Martinez
> Send your spam here:
> Email me here:

[Mean_Chlorine]

"NetMax" > wrote in message >...

> I'm not a big fan of doing large water changes during a pH crash because
> of our water. It solves the NH4 to NH3 problem, but around here, our pH
> is too high (7.7) so the shock would kill them.

I can guarantee that you will never ever kill a fish by pH shock going
from 6.5 to 7.7. Ever. Any fish at all.

Ammonia poisoning, possibly, pH shock - never.

[Mean_Chlorine]

Victor Martinez > wrote in message >...

> You call that high? Our water is supposed to come out of the tap with a
> pH of at least 9.7 :P

Christ allmighty! Are you serious?!

At 9.5 my _tanganyikans_ show signs of distress, and 9.6 can cause
damage to some sensitive species of fish if kept at that pH for
prolonged periods!

[Mean_Chlorine]

"MarAzul" > wrote in message news:<WL3fc.7508$dZ1.3497@fed1read04>...

> Friday, 20% water change (and that includes gravel vac) was done, and 10% on

For the record, that is a *small* water change, ie exactly what you
should *not* do when there may be ammonium in the water.
Also, as long as you've got any nitrite your fish are at risk.

It does sound as if your denitrifying bacteria are coming back on-line
though, and that is a good thing.

[NetMax]

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
om...
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>...
>
> > I'm not a big fan of doing large water changes during a pH crash
because
> > of our water. It solves the NH4 to NH3 problem, but around here, our
pH
> > is too high (7.7) so the shock would kill them.
>
> I can guarantee that you will never ever kill a fish by pH shock going
> from 6.5 to 7.7. Ever. Any fish at all.
>
> Ammonia poisoning, possibly, pH shock - never.

I've suspected that pH is not the leading cause of shock that it's made
out to be, and that the real culprit is gH, NO3 and/or DOCs, but I've
never had occasion to test that hypothesis. My understanding is that a
significant gH or DOC delta would cause stress due to the change in
osmotic pressure on the fish's gill cells. I don't know what the NO3
mechanism is, but I've seen what I think are the symptoms, such that I
try to keep NO3 delta to below 40ppm for large fish and 20ppm for smaller
fish. Again, I have no supporting data though. The problem with this
subject, is that I start sounding like I know what I'm talking about,
when you can be certain, I don't.

There was a German study done to determine at what pH fish died and what
the symptoms were. They only went acidic. The test failed because none
of their test subjects died. I forgot to bookmark the website (doh), and
cannot recall the exact numbers. They were not tropical fish, so I do
not know how comparative the data is. Anyone bookmark it?

I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on this topic. Your posts are
usually very informative (keepers), and your methodology is quite (imo)
professional (ie: snails and shrimp articles). thx

NetMax

[Victor Martinez]

Mean_Chlorine wrote:
> Christ allmighty! Are you serious?!

Check for yourself: http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/water/downloads/wqr_jan04.pdf

> At 9.5 my _tanganyikans_ show signs of distress, and 9.6 can cause
> damage to some sensitive species of fish if kept at that pH for
> prolonged periods!

The pH drops significantly once aerated.

--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[Mean_Chlorine]

"NetMax" > wrote in message >...

> I've suspected that pH is not the leading cause of shock that it's made
> out to be, and that the real culprit is gH, NO3 and/or DOCs, but I've
> never had occasion to test that hypothesis. My understanding is that a
> significant gH or DOC delta would cause stress due to the change in
> osmotic pressure on the fish's gill cells.

Yes, this is true.

However, if we stay with the pH, you can kill a fish with pH through
three different mechanisms: corrosion, acidosis/alkalosis, and via
poisoning with unrelated but pH-dependent reactions.

Corrosion: I don't know if this is really a factor in aquaria, as the
fish will normally be dead long before their cells start being lysed
by the H+/OH-, but at pH's lower than about 2 and higher than about
11, this will start to happen.

Acidosis/alkalosis: when pH in aquaria _in itself_ kills fish, this is
probably the mechanism by which it does it. A healthy fishs blood is
buffered to a pH between 7 and 8 (typically about 7.7), but there are
limits to the buffer capacity of the blood, and if the surrounding
water has a pH outside those limits, the biological processes of the
fish, typically the respiration, will begin to fail. There is no fish
known to me which is _not_ able to live and grow at normal rate at any
pH in the range 6.5 - 8.5; most fish are with acclimatisation able to
survive at pH's outside this range, but will then tend to show reduced
growth rate due to the increased stress.
Conversely, I know of no fish capable of long-term survival at pH's
lower than 3.5 or higher than 10.5, regardless of acclimatisation.

That fish blood is buffered to about 7.7 is the reason I said that it
is impossible to pH-shock a fish to death by moving it to pH 7.7, as
the resulting pH shock is in reality negligible.

pH-related reactions: Here things get a lot more complex. The most
common pH dependent killer is probably ammonia - for example, I once
wiped out an entire shipment of marine fish (which had been in transit
for perhaps 24 hours) by placing airstones in the shipping bags
without changing any water, thereby driving off accumulated CO2,
thereby raising the pH, thereby converting slightly toxic ammonium
into lethally toxic ammonia. That the water in the bags smelled
'funky' should have been an alarm clock, but I was in a hurry, and
payed the price.
But there are many other issues - you mention hardness, and to that
one may add e.g. that heavy metals become more easily soluble at low
pH's.

Some resources wrt pH and fish:
http://www.fao.org/docrep/field/003/AC183E/AC183E07.htm#ch7.
http://www.aquabotanic.com/464fs.pdf

There is also a chart somewhere on the net with the pH tolerances of
range of fish, but I can't seem to locate it at the moment (if anyone
knows the URL, I'd appreciate a pointer so I can bookmark it). The
bottom line is that the range 6.5 - 8.5 is optimal for survival and
growth of any species (suitable _breeding_ conditions may be a
different story, though).

> There was a German study done to determine at what pH fish died and what
> the symptoms were. They only went acidic. The test failed because none
> of their test subjects died. I forgot to bookmark the website (doh), and
> cannot recall the exact numbers. They were not tropical fish, so I do
> not know how comparative the data is. Anyone bookmark it?

Haven't seen that, but you CAN naturally kill even acclimated fish
with low or high pH. It's just that those pH's are rarely seen in
aquaria.

[NetMax]

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
om...
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>...
>
> > I've suspected that pH is not the leading cause of shock that it's
made
> > out to be, and that the real culprit is gH, NO3 and/or DOCs, but I've
> > never had occasion to test that hypothesis. My understanding is that
a
> > significant gH or DOC delta would cause stress due to the change in
> > osmotic pressure on the fish's gill cells.
>
> Yes, this is true.
>
> However, if we stay with the pH
<snip>>
> Some resources wrt pH and fish:
> http://www.fao.org/docrep/field/003/AC183E/AC183E07.htm#ch7.
> http://www.aquabotanic.com/464fs.pdf

Printing for study, especially the 2nd one.

> There is also a chart somewhere on the net with the pH tolerances of
> range of fish, but I can't seem to locate it at the moment (if anyone
> knows the URL, I'd appreciate a pointer so I can bookmark it). The
> bottom line is that the range 6.5 - 8.5 is optimal for survival and
> growth of any species (suitable _breeding_ conditions may be a
> different story, though).

I don't have that one either.

> > There was a German study done to determine at what pH fish died and
what
> > the symptoms were. They only went acidic. The test failed because
none
> > of their test subjects died. I forgot to bookmark the website (doh),
and
> > cannot recall the exact numbers. They were not tropical fish, so I
do
> > not know how comparative the data is. Anyone bookmark it?
>
> Haven't seen that, but you CAN naturally kill even acclimated fish
> with low or high pH. It's just that those pH's are rarely seen in
> aquaria.

I think they only got into the 4s and ran out of time. Thanks for your
info.

NetMax