Black Alge? [Archive] - FishKeepingBanter.com

Bill Stock

June 26th 06, 04:34 AM

"Jim Conklin" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Jim Conklin" > wrote in message
>> nk.net...
>>> I'm having a problem with what I would call 'black alge' on my
>>> plants and driftwood. I have a 55 gallon discus planted tank, 2.4
>>> watts/gallon, pH 6.2, temp 84-85F, GH 75ppm, KH 120ppm, 0 Nitrite and
>>> less then 20ppm Nitrate. I feed the plants the usual Flourish
>>> supplements every few days.
>>>
>>> This stuff is slimy and covers the leaves and back of the tank.
>>> It's almost black and I clean it off with my fingers. I keep the lights
>>> on for no more the 12 hours. Any help IDing it or suggestions on how to
>>> get rid of it would be appreciated. Thanks!
>>
>> In addition to what Dick said.
>>
>> Common treatments for BBA (Black Brush Algae) are blackout, trimming
>> infected leaves, scrubbing followed by a water change, increased water
>> flow and critters.
>>
>> I don't remember the suggested blackout (absolutely no light) period, but
>> I believe it's about a week. Some people have claimed this did not work
>> for them.
>>
>> Removal is one of the better options, remove infected leaves, wipe sides
>> with a paper towel, vacuum gravel and do a large water change after
>> scrubbing. You should be doing large water changes weekly in any event.
>> Really seems to help keep the Algae in check.
>>
>> Dipping infected plants in Hydrogen Peroxide or 20:1 mix of water and
>> bleach. I found Hydrogen Peroxide useless and went for the bleach
>> mixture.
>>
>> I also added BBA eating critters SAES seem to be the best. But I'm not
>> sure they would like your low PH.
>>
>>
>> What's your water flow like? Do you know where your Phosphate/Iron levels
>> are? It's possible one of these is too low and limiting your plant
>> growth, which allows the Algae to thrive.
>>
>>
>>
> I have pretty good water flow: a Filstar canister filter working together
> with a Marineland 350. Phosphate is very high and always has been so.
> This stuff started appearing about a month ago. I've been adding a capful
> of Iron supplement weekly with 50% water changes, perhaps I should add
> more? I thought I was keeping the tank clean as I have crystal clear water
> but perhaps I'm not. I'll try a massive cleaning: 75% water change
> together w/ gravel vacuum and trimming off the infected leaves and wiping
> down the sides. Does SAES stand for Siamese Algae Eaters? Thanks for the
> help.
>
> JC

Pretty much everything I told you about the BBA applies to BGA (Blue Green
Algae), especially the water changes, water flow and gravel vaccing. I'd be
careful about changing more than 50% water, as it may have negative affects
on your fish. I'm not familiar with Discuss.

If you go the Antibiotic root, it may only be a temporary fix, as you
haven't cured the cause and the BGA will likely come back. Cleanup is
probably your best bet.

I had BGA before I got BBA and it went away with water changes, better
fertilization, CO2 (I have more light) and better water flow.

One more thing to try is Flourish Excel (CO2 in a bottle) at a slightly
higher dose than recommended. Some people swear by this stuff.

I use PMDD for my Iron, so I really can't equate your measures. Since you're
doing the weekly water changes anyway, you may want to consider then EI
(Estimative Index) for fertilizing. Although it's geared more towards high
light tanks. The big thing is to make your plants grow well, so they out
compete the Algae for nutrients. What's causing your high Phosphates BTW, is
it in the water or the food you are feeding?

Yes, SAE = Siamese Algae Eater.

Jim Conklin

June 26th 06, 04:20 PM

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Conklin" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>>
>> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Jim Conklin" > wrote in message
>>> nk.net...
>>>> I'm having a problem with what I would call 'black alge' on my
>>>> plants and driftwood. I have a 55 gallon discus planted tank, 2.4
>>>> watts/gallon, pH 6.2, temp 84-85F, GH 75ppm, KH 120ppm, 0 Nitrite and
>>>> less then 20ppm Nitrate. I feed the plants the usual Flourish
>>>> supplements every few days.
>>>>
>>>> This stuff is slimy and covers the leaves and back of the tank.
>>>> It's almost black and I clean it off with my fingers. I keep the
>>>> lights on for no more the 12 hours. Any help IDing it or suggestions on
>>>> how to get rid of it would be appreciated. Thanks!
>>>
>>> In addition to what Dick said.
>>>
>>> Common treatments for BBA (Black Brush Algae) are blackout, trimming
>>> infected leaves, scrubbing followed by a water change, increased water
>>> flow and critters.
>>>
>>> I don't remember the suggested blackout (absolutely no light) period,
>>> but I believe it's about a week. Some people have claimed this did not
>>> work for them.
>>>
>>> Removal is one of the better options, remove infected leaves, wipe sides
>>> with a paper towel, vacuum gravel and do a large water change after
>>> scrubbing. You should be doing large water changes weekly in any event.
>>> Really seems to help keep the Algae in check.
>>>
>>> Dipping infected plants in Hydrogen Peroxide or 20:1 mix of water and
>>> bleach. I found Hydrogen Peroxide useless and went for the bleach
>>> mixture.
>>>
>>> I also added BBA eating critters SAES seem to be the best. But I'm not
>>> sure they would like your low PH.
>>>
>>>
>>> What's your water flow like? Do you know where your Phosphate/Iron
>>> levels are? It's possible one of these is too low and limiting your
>>> plant growth, which allows the Algae to thrive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I have pretty good water flow: a Filstar canister filter working
>> together with a Marineland 350. Phosphate is very high and always has
>> been so. This stuff started appearing about a month ago. I've been
>> adding a capful of Iron supplement weekly with 50% water changes,
>> perhaps I should add more? I thought I was keeping the tank clean as I
>> have crystal clear water but perhaps I'm not. I'll try a massive
>> cleaning: 75% water change together w/ gravel vacuum and trimming off
>> the infected leaves and wiping down the sides. Does SAES stand for
>> Siamese Algae Eaters? Thanks for the help.
>>
>> JC
>
> Pretty much everything I told you about the BBA applies to BGA (Blue Green
> Algae), especially the water changes, water flow and gravel vaccing. I'd
> be careful about changing more than 50% water, as it may have negative
> affects on your fish. I'm not familiar with Discuss.
>
> If you go the Antibiotic root, it may only be a temporary fix, as you
> haven't cured the cause and the BGA will likely come back. Cleanup is
> probably your best bet.
>
> I had BGA before I got BBA and it went away with water changes, better
> fertilization, CO2 (I have more light) and better water flow.
>
> One more thing to try is Flourish Excel (CO2 in a bottle) at a slightly
> higher dose than recommended. Some people swear by this stuff.
>
> I use PMDD for my Iron, so I really can't equate your measures. Since
> you're doing the weekly water changes anyway, you may want to consider
> then EI (Estimative Index) for fertilizing. Although it's geared more
> towards high light tanks. The big thing is to make your plants grow well,
> so they out compete the Algae for nutrients. What's causing your high
> Phosphates BTW, is it in the water or the food you are feeding?
>
> Yes, SAE = Siamese Algae Eater.

The phosphate is from the well water I get. I've tried every product out
there to get rid of it. Nothing works so I've learned to live with it.
I'll try the 'big cleaning' route and crank up the CO2 and light and see
where we go from there. Thanks for the help.

Jim

>

Marco Schwarz

June 26th 06, 06:47 PM

Hi..

> This stuff is slimy and covers the leaves and back of
> the tank. It's

Sounds like "cyanobacteria"..? These nutrient-hungry folks
are used to exist in so called "nutrient-poor" water.

How do you feed your tank? How many fishes do you keep and
how do you feed your plants..?

Finally: when did you start this tank..?
--
cu
Marco

Richard Sexton

June 26th 06, 06:56 PM

>I don't use any chemicals in my tanks. I rely on the fish. I feed
>the fish and the fish feed the plants.

The problem is they don't. Fertilize properly and use Co2 OR Flourish
Excel and it'll go away by itself.

I had this crap for 7 years till Tom Barr convinced me if
I put fertilizer in the tank the algae will go away. He
uses CO2 I use Excel. Both work.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

June 26th 06, 07:02 PM

In article t>,
Jim Conklin > wrote:
>No, no sunlight at all. However I just stumbled on this site and it ID's it
>as a kind of bacteria. ( Slime algae)
>
> http://www.plantgeek.net/article_viewer.php?id=9
>
>I'll give a try to the chemical they mention.

BAD IDEA. First, you'd be removing the symprom but not the
cause, it'll simply come back. Second, indiscriminate use
of aquarium antibiotics is extremely harmful and they will
soon no longer be sold as easily as now, mercifully.

That article should be removed from the Interent. It's one
of the single most bad and dangerous pieces of advice ever
published.

If you have blue green slime algae then nitrate alone will
kill it.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

June 26th 06, 07:05 PM

In article >,
Bill Stock > wrote:
>
>"Jim Conklin" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>> I'm having a problem with what I would call 'black alge' on my plants
>> and driftwood. I have a 55 gallon discus planted tank, 2.4 watts/gallon,
>> pH 6.2, temp 84-85F, GH 75ppm, KH 120ppm, 0 Nitrite and less then 20ppm
>> Nitrate. I feed the plants the usual Flourish supplements every few days.
>>
>> This stuff is slimy and covers the leaves and back of the tank. It's
>> almost black and I clean it off with my fingers. I keep the lights on for
>> no more the 12 hours. Any help IDing it or suggestions on how to get rid
>> of it would be appreciated. Thanks!
>
>In addition to what Dick said.
>
>Common treatments for BBA (Black Brush Algae) are blackout, trimming
>infected leaves, scrubbing followed by a water change, increased water flow
>and critters.
>
>I don't remember the suggested blackout (absolutely no light) period, but I
>believe it's about a week. Some people have claimed this did not work for
>them.
>
>Removal is one of the better options, remove infected leaves, wipe sides
>with a paper towel, vacuum gravel and do a large water change after
>scrubbing. You should be doing large water changes weekly in any event.
>Really seems to help keep the Algae in check.
>
>Dipping infected plants in Hydrogen Peroxide or 20:1 mix of water and
>bleach. I found Hydrogen Peroxide useless and went for the bleach mixture.
>
>I also added BBA eating critters SAES seem to be the best. But I'm not sure
>they would like your low PH.
>
>
>What's your water flow like? Do you know where your Phosphate/Iron levels
>are? It's possible one of these is too low and limiting your plant growth,
>which allows the Algae to thrive.

Again, all this removes the symptom not the cause. Fertilize properly
and it simply goes away. You should siphon out what you can, the rest
will die naturally upon proper fertilization.

I long touted the bleach dip and peroxide. But they don't work long
term set the plants back a LOT and are just a waste of time and plants.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

June 26th 06, 07:07 PM

In article et>,
Jim Conklin > wrote:
>I have pretty good water flow: a Filstar canister filter working together
>with a Marineland 350. Phosphate is very high and always has been so. This
>stuff started appearing about a month ago. I've been adding a capful of
>Iron supplement weekly with 50% water changes, perhaps I should add more?
>I thought I was keeping the tank clean as I have crystal clear water but
>perhaps I'm not. I'll try a massive cleaning: 75% water change together
>w/ gravel vacuum and trimming off the infected leaves and wiping down the
>sides. Does SAES stand for Siamese Algae Eaters? Thanks for the help.

Yes and they won't help here. Dose iron per the instructions, an iron
test kit woldn't hurt, trying to keep any residual level is actually
quite hard.

You're not dosing with Potassium nitrate. That's your major problem.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Koi-Lo

June 26th 06, 08:24 PM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >I don't use any chemicals in my tanks. I rely on the fish. I feed
>>the fish and the fish feed the plants.
>
> The problem is they don't. Fertilize properly and use Co2 OR Flourish
> Excel and it'll go away by itself.

In your tanks maybe. I bought all those Seachem fertilizers plus Flourish
and still have black-red algae. Let people know before spending a lot of
cash that what works for YOU may not work for THEM.

> I had this crap for 7 years till Tom Barr convinced me if
> I put fertilizer in the tank the algae will go away. He
> uses CO2 I use Excel. Both work.

But not for everyone since not everyone has the exact same conditions you do
and these products are not cheap.
--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Richard Sexton

June 26th 06, 11:22 PM

In article >,
Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>
>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>> >I don't use any chemicals in my tanks. I rely on the fish. I feed
>>>the fish and the fish feed the plants.
>>
>> The problem is they don't. Fertilize properly and use Co2 OR Flourish
>> Excel and it'll go away by itself.
>
>In your tanks maybe. I bought all those Seachem fertilizers plus Flourish
>and still have black-red algae. Let people know before spending a lot of
>cash that what works for YOU may not work for THEM.
>
>> I had this crap for 7 years till Tom Barr convinced me if
>> I put fertilizer in the tank the algae will go away. He
>> uses CO2 I use Excel. Both work.
>
>But not for everyone since not everyone has the exact same conditions you do
>and these products are not cheap.

Any fool that can use google can see it's worked for everybody except you
and one other guy. This comes as no surprise as I suepct the laws of physics
don't actually apply at your house.

Excel is $8. A full load of chemicals for a year is $12 from a hydroponics
store.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Dick

June 27th 06, 12:36 AM

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:56:55 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>>I don't use any chemicals in my tanks. I rely on the fish. I feed
>>the fish and the fish feed the plants.
>
>The problem is they don't. Fertilize properly and use Co2 OR Flourish
>Excel and it'll go away by itself.
>
>I had this crap for 7 years till Tom Barr convinced me if
>I put fertilizer in the tank the algae will go away. He
>uses CO2 I use Excel. Both work.

"The problem is they don't?" Well, excuse me, I have been misled. I
wish my plants would read your response. Maybe I could spend less
time thinning the ignorant plants in my tanks.

My tanks have been relying on their fish for over 3 years.
I have an aversion to any special additives, I am a bad, careless
chemist. I can't have as wide a variety of plants, but I am pleased
with the ones I have.

I wonder if the fertilizer may not be a contributing factor to the
problem.

dick

Koi-Lo

June 27th 06, 01:34 AM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>>
>>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>> >I don't use any chemicals in my tanks. I rely on the fish. I feed
>>>>the fish and the fish feed the plants.
>>>
>>> The problem is they don't. Fertilize properly and use Co2 OR Flourish
>>> Excel and it'll go away by itself.
>>
>>In your tanks maybe. I bought all those Seachem fertilizers plus Flourish
>>and still have black-red algae. Let people know before spending a lot of
>>cash that what works for YOU may not work for THEM.
>>
>>> I had this crap for 7 years till Tom Barr convinced me if
>>> I put fertilizer in the tank the algae will go away. He
>>> uses CO2 I use Excel. Both work.
>>
>>But not for everyone since not everyone has the exact same conditions you
>>do
>>and these products are not cheap.
>
> Any fool that can use google can see it's worked for everybody except you
> and one other guy. This comes as no surprise as I suepct the laws of
> physics
> don't actually apply at your house.

And any fool knows all tanks are different with different loads, different
water conditions, different gallonage, differing numbers and types of
plants. And I suspect my conditions are not like your conditions. And you
are WRONG,... there was another woman here who had it fail for her as well.
If she sees this thread she may reply.

> Excel is $8. A full load of chemicals for a year is $12 from a hydroponics
> store.

$12.00? When? 30 years ago? Or are you talking about for one 10g tank?
The shipping and handling *alone* was $18 at the last recommended website I
checked out for these chemicals - that didn't include the price of any of
the chemicals (micronutrients, iron supplements etc). As for the Seachem
products, the typical 250ml size doesn't go very far when one has several
55g tanks or even several smaller tanks.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Koi-Lo

June 27th 06, 01:45 AM

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:56:55 +0000 (UTC),
> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>
>>>I don't use any chemicals in my tanks. I rely on the fish. I feed
>>>the fish and the fish feed the plants.
>>
>>The problem is they don't. Fertilize properly and use Co2 OR Flourish
>>Excel and it'll go away by itself.
>>
>>I had this crap for 7 years till Tom Barr convinced me if
>>I put fertilizer in the tank the algae will go away. He
>>uses CO2 I use Excel. Both work.

> "The problem is they don't?" Well, excuse me, I have been misled. I
> wish my plants would read your response. Maybe I could spend less
> time thinning the ignorant plants in my tanks.
>
> My tanks have been relying on their fish for over 3 years.
> I have an aversion to any special additives, I am a bad, careless
> chemist. I can't have as wide a variety of plants, but I am pleased
> with the ones I have.
>
> I wonder if the fertilizer may not be a contributing factor to the
> problem.
>
> dick
=======================
I'm wondering if all the additives I used contributed to the mysterious
deaths of my delicate fancy goldfish. Not one outside fish died during that
time. Nothing was added to their (outdoor) tanks. All these chemicals did
was give my plants an initial boost and slowed the black sooty algae to a
near stop. The plants reacted with a burst of new growth, but then I also
added stronger light at the same time to discourage those "toilet tank
diatoms". But then the effects wore off, the new plants started to fade
away and the old standbys we've had for years are still with us. The Excel
didn't turn any of the algae white and cause it to "fall off" the plants or
glass as I was told it would. And it's darned expensive to use all these
supplements when you have two 55s and four 10s. I'm going to stick with my
old plants that thrive under our conditions for now. The plecos and otos
cleaned most of the slowed-down algae off the plants and glass.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[email protected]

June 27th 06, 05:44 AM

Dick wrote:

> I wonder if the fertilizer may not be a contributing factor to the
> problem.

> dick

No, not to BGA.

99% of the algae issues in fully/mostly planted tanks is related to a
lack of something, not an excess.

Your plants are not growing, that's why you have algae.........they
might look okay, but compared to their potential growth, they are just
sitting there, idling till there is enough nutrients to grow.

You can easily induce BGA, Oscillitoria (species: splendens mostly), by
reducing/stopping NO3 dosing and maintaining the Traces, PO4, K+ dosing
etc. This will drive the NO3 to near zero. You'll see it along the
gravel edge and glass, typically closest to ambient light/windows etc.

So knowing this, you can kill off the BGA, but.......much much much
more importantly, now you know what is the root cause for it's
appearance, thus do preventitive maintenance.

Say you want nice looking teeth(Planted tank), do you brush them often
or do you wait till you have cavities(algae all over) and need a root
canal?

Stop neglecting the tank.
Add more KNO3 and BGA will not appear again if you keep up on
things(NO3 dosing).

Now while many tanks have different fish, loading etc, BGA grows for
very definable reasons................as well as most algae, they are
more specific than plants in terms of the environmental parameters they
enjoy and what induces the spores to germinate into adults.

I do not need to know what your tank is like, the ppms etc, I know
right away that there is either a clogged filter, too few water
changes, flithy conditions due to a very long peroid of neglect, or
much more commonly: low/absent NO3.

Many of the algae can be used to know what is wrong with an aquarist's
tank rapidly, BBA= low or too much variation in the CO2 levels
throughout the day, GW=> anything that causes a slight build up on NH4.
Staghorn: urea build up from excess fish/critter loading=> similar the
GW reasons. And the list goes on and on.........

Know your enemy and what makes them grow.
Too few planted aquarist know much about algae other than they hate it
and want to get rid of it.

So rather than inducing it to learn more about it, they instead focus
all their time and efforts trying to get rid of it and they end up
guessing for many years, they assume many incorrect things and then
lots of myths get circulated.

If you know what induces the spores to germinate and produce a bloom,
then you know what is going on.........

I do not see why this concept is so strange to folks............Stop
guessing and figure it out. I did and can show folks how to prove the
same obvservations to themselves and inducement methods. Then you'll
know and stop the years of guessing.

Once the BGA starts to grow, like most adult algae, the adults are much
tougher than the spores, think about it...........does a little
seedling have a better chance than a large adult tree? Of course not.
Nor the reserves and nutrient storage capacity.

So while adding KNO3 will address the long range issue and prevent it
from coming back, the 3 blackout/50% water change + good cleaning and
1/4 teaspoon KNO3 per 80 luiters of tank thereafter, 3 days of
blackout(Turn CO2 off) followed by the same 50% water change and dosing
again(turn lights on/CO2 etc) will kill all the BGA you have.

Trash bags 2 layers thick are ideal and you should make sure no light
gets in through the trash bags. Yes, you can feed your fishj, yes, you
can peak, no your plants are not so weak that this treatment will harm
them, they do send in the mail and it's not the dark mailbox that
causes shipping issues, it's freezing or excess heat melting them.

So there is a simple, FREE, non herbical, non antibiotic method anyone
can do, that addresses every type of tank(KNO3 dose is less for non CO2
tanks, marine tanks, oh yes, it works very well for marine
tanks......), it's extremely effective.

Often times with mild cases, no blackout is even needed.
A good cleaning, with some large water changes and redose with KNO3.

Some folks spot treat after with some H2O2.
Some use the pills/antibiotics in conjunction with the KNO3 dosing.

I don't care how you kill the BGA, but make sure you address why it
showed up in the first place.

Pills, H2O2 etc never would show you what induiced the
BGA..............the black will quickly be reinfected if you did not do
the KNO3 dosing..........

That is the real critical part. Antiobiotics will take longer for
reinfection, too long to make the observation that the low NO3 induces
the BGA..........

A healthy group of growing plants is a much better look than weak
plants limited by NO3, you might be okay with that.........but it's a
poor method over the long run when you could be gardening and growing
anything you want with a very few, small changes.

In general, for CO2 enriched tanks: at least 1/4 teaspoon per 80 liters
weekly in a min, for non CO2, maybe 1/16th-1/8th 2-4x a month depending
on fish load/feeding etc.

Adding cory cats will help also against BGA on the gravel.
After 12 months or more, deep vac the gravel also, this gets rid of the
sour organic material and helps improve the O2 levels/circulation in
the gravel.

Hope this helps,

Regards,
Tom Barr

[email protected]

June 27th 06, 05:52 AM

Richard Sexton wrote:

> You're not dosing with Potassium nitrate. That's your major problem.

And fits __precisely__ with what I've said for several years about BGA.
Low NO3 causes BGA spores to germinate.

He's adding PO4 from the well water, plenty of traces, some fish waste
etc, everything except extra K and NO3.

Folks that try and water change the BGA are often very frustrated
because once it's there, it's very tough to get rid of and can live on
very low nutrients, like Green water...........green dust algae
zoospores etc

You need to provide a nice range of nutrients for plants in order for
them to grow well, not too low=> algae, not too high=> dead fish from
very high NO3(100ppm or more using KNO3)

EI is a simple method to do that so you spend more time feeding fish,
gardening and less time fiddling with test kits, calibration solutions
etc....but some folk enjoy that....

I think there is a water testing forum somewhere, that's "their" hobby.
haha

Regards,
Tom Barr

Koi-Lo

June 27th 06, 03:45 PM

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> You need to provide a nice range of nutrients for plants in order for
> them to grow well, not too low=> algae, not too high=> dead fish from
> very high NO3(100ppm or more using KNO3)
====================
Not everyone knows what you're talking about. Not being a chemist, I have
no idea what the above are. And not everyone can afford a large number of
tests kits. So we tend to stick to the plants that thrive for us with a
minimum of supplements.
--
KL
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Koi-Lo

June 27th 06, 04:49 PM

Well your just a ****ing dumbass Carol.........no one expected "YOU"
to understand a freaking thing anyhow.

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:45:32 -0500, "Koi-Lo" <¤?¤@ö½.Õ..Õ¢> wrote:

>
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>>
>> You need to provide a nice range of nutrients for plants in order for
>> them to grow well, not too low=> algae, not too high=> dead fish from
>> very high NO3(100ppm or more using KNO3)
>====================
>Not everyone knows what you're talking about. Not being a chemist, I have
>no idea what the above are. And not everyone can afford a large number of
>tests kits. So we tend to stick to the plants that thrive for us with a
>minimum of supplements.

You can reach -Ed Alston at

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Marco Schwarz

June 27th 06, 07:56 PM

Hi..

> The phosphate is from the well water I get. I've tried
> every product out there to get rid of it.
> Nothing works so I've learned to
> live with it. I'll try the 'big cleaning' route and crank
> up the CO2 and light and see
> where we go from there.

Cyanobacteria are mostly no good at tolerating changes in
lightening and water conditions.

I've seen it several times: filter mud inputs were able to
stop them.

My favourite way to stop and remove them are daily tap water
changes of 85% netto over a period of 7 days minimum.

Another ("harder") method were a dimout (lights of, tank
enveloped and running with an extra air stone) for a week.
Your plants might suffer but would survive.

HTH.
--
cu
Marco

Richard Sexton

June 27th 06, 08:00 PM

Carol I'm sure you're doing your best. But you seem to live in a parallel
universe where nothing is the same. Your single data point does not
invalidate the experiences of a large number of poeple.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

June 27th 06, 08:04 PM

In article >,
Dick > wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:56:55 +0000 (UTC),
>(Richard Sexton) wrote:
>
>>>I don't use any chemicals in my tanks. I rely on the fish. I feed
>>>the fish and the fish feed the plants.
>>
>>The problem is they don't. Fertilize properly and use Co2 OR Flourish
>>Excel and it'll go away by itself.
>>
>>I had this crap for 7 years till Tom Barr convinced me if
>>I put fertilizer in the tank the algae will go away. He
>>uses CO2 I use Excel. Both work.
>
>"The problem is they don't?" Well, excuse me, I have been misled. I
>wish my plants would read your response. Maybe I could spend less
>time thinning the ignorant plants in my tanks.
>
>My tanks have been relying on their fish for over 3 years.
>I have an aversion to any special additives, I am a bad, careless
>chemist. I can't have as wide a variety of plants, but I am pleased
>with the ones I have.
>
>I wonder if the fertilizer may not be a contributing factor to the
>problem.

Knockyourself out buddy. All I'm saying is I've fought algae for
30 years and what I said to do seems to fix it at the suggestion
of those pesky folks who keep entering the AGA contests.

Of course there aer people that can get acceptible results without
fertilization. But if you want "stunnning" instead of "accpetible"
then you may need to play junior scientist.

This subject has been beaten to death for 15 years on the APD list
and all thigns being equal you can grow better plants if you fertilize
than if you don't. That's not an opinion, that's an empirical
observation.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

June 27th 06, 08:06 PM

>time. Nothing was added to their (outdoor) tanks. All these chemicals did
>was give my plants an initial boost and slowed the black sooty algae to a
>near stop. The plants reacted with a burst of new growth, but then I also

Therefore you concluded you were on the wrong path? Ooooooooook...

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

June 27th 06, 08:09 PM

In article >,
Marco Schwarz > wrote:
>Hi..
>
>> The phosphate is from the well water I get. I've tried
>> every product out there to get rid of it.
>> Nothing works so I've learned to
>> live with it. I'll try the 'big cleaning' route and crank
>> up the CO2 and light and see
>> where we go from there.
>
>Cyanobacteria are mostly no good at tolerating changes in
>lightening and water conditions.
>
>I've seen it several times: filter mud inputs were able to
>stop them.
>
>My favourite way to stop and remove them are daily tap water
>changes of 85% netto over a period of 7 days minimum.

Yup. But as Tom says, this just cures the sympton not the cause.

But yes it does work. For a neglected tank I change 80% per day
for two days then 50% a day for 5 days and it looks like new.

If I actually get off my lazy butt and fertilize, the alage neevr
comes back.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

June 27th 06, 08:11 PM

In article om>,
> wrote:
>You need to provide a nice range of nutrients for plants in order for
>them to grow well, not too low=> algae, not too high=> dead fish from
>very high NO3(100ppm or more using KNO3)

Crytps will curl the leaf ends with 3 weeks of 200 ppm but I never
say a fish, shrimp or snail be even uncomfortable let alone dead.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

June 27th 06, 08:14 PM

>Not everyone knows what you're talking about.

True.

>And not everyone can afford a large number of tests kits.

Tom is saying you don't need test kits. He's right about that.

> So we tend to stick to the plants that thrive for us with a
>minimum of supplements.

They're not "supplements" they're "food".

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Koi-Lo

June 27th 06, 08:49 PM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> Carol I'm sure you're doing your best. But you seem to live in a parallel
> universe where nothing is the same. Your single data point does not
> invalidate the experiences of a large number of poeple.
=================================
I did what was suggested I do. That was the major water changes and
thorough gravel vacuuming. I ordered all the supplements from Foster &
Smith. I followed the directions on the containers. The algae never turned
white and never fell off.

You seem to be living in a Universe where everything is identical.......
odd that! I sent Gill pictures of some tanks/fish which clearly show the
black-red algae was still there, weeks after adding all these expensive
supplements. When I saw they weren't working I went ahead and bought the
otos and plecs.

It's not fair to have people believe of they add these supplements they
*WILL* work regardless of gallonage, filters, lighting or fish load. That
is unless there's a money-back guarantee, which there isn't.
--
KL.......
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Koi-Lo

June 27th 06, 08:53 PM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >time. Nothing was added to their (outdoor) tanks. All these chemicals
> >did
>>was give my plants an initial boost and slowed the black sooty algae to a
>>near stop. The plants reacted with a burst of new growth, but then I also
>
> Therefore you concluded you were on the wrong path? Ooooooooook...
===================
And yet I continued on using the supplements since I already had them -
bought and paid for. Did you think I threw then away? I'm still using
them. The old plants are doing fine as they always have. Most of the new
ones are dead and gone. Some black sooty and black hairy algae remains.
--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Koi-Lo

June 27th 06, 09:04 PM

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >Not everyone knows what you're talking about.
>
> True.
>
>>And not everyone can afford a large number of tests kits.
>
> Tom is saying you don't need test kits. He's right about that.
>
>> So we tend to stick to the plants that thrive for us with a
>>minimum of supplements.
>
> They're not "supplements" they're "food".
=========================
Supplementary "food" then. But without test kits there is no way to know if
these "foods" are balanced or not, no way to know if there's too much P for
the N available etc.
--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Marco Schwarz

June 27th 06, 09:35 PM

Hi..

> Yup. But as Tom says, this just cures the sympton not the
> cause.

Well.., cyanobacteria are of course a hot discussed topic in
our native newsgroups and forums, too. But our biologists
say there is no integral whole understanding of cause and
effect relating to cyanobacteria - and how to avoid them.

And this is why I told the OP some well known and easy to
manage practical methods..

Think positive: this is Tom's ultimate chance to explain his
understanding of cause and effect relating to cyanobacteria
here in rafp..!

--
cu
Marco

Richard Sexton

June 27th 06, 10:52 PM

>It's not fair to have people believe of they add these supplements they
>*WILL* work regardless of gallonage, filters, lighting or fish load. That
>is unless there's a money-back guarantee, which there isn't.

They will work. You're doing *something* wrong. Get over it.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

June 27th 06, 10:53 PM

In article >,
Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>And yet I continued on using the supplements since I already had them -
>bought and paid for. Did you think I threw then away? I'm still using
>them. The old plants are doing fine as they always have. Most of the new
>ones are dead and gone. Some black sooty and black hairy algae remains.

Try removing it.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

June 27th 06, 10:53 PM

In article >,
Marco Schwarz > wrote:
>Hi..
>
>> Yup. But as Tom says, this just cures the sympton not the
>> cause.
>
>Well.., cyanobacteria are of course a hot discussed topic in
>our native newsgroups and forums, too. But our biologists
>say there is no integral whole understanding of cause and
>effect relating to cyanobacteria - and how to avoid them.
>
>And this is why I told the OP some well known and easy to
>manage practical methods..
>
>Think positive: this is Tom's ultimate chance to explain his
>understanding of cause and effect relating to cyanobacteria
>here in rafp..!

It's in the APD archives. Many many times.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

June 27th 06, 10:59 PM

In article >,
Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>Supplementary "food" then. But without test kits there is no way to know if
>these "foods" are balanced or not, no way to know if there's too much P for
>the N available etc.

Somebody hasn't been paying attention.

Try google for "estimative index".

Or http://aquaria.net/articles/plants/barr-dose/

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[email protected]

June 27th 06, 11:16 PM

Koi-Lo wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > You need to provide a nice range of nutrients for plants in order for
> > them to grow well, not too low=> algae, not too high=> dead fish from
> > very high NO3(100ppm or more using KNO3)
> ====================
> Not everyone knows what you're talking about. Not being a chemist, I have
> no idea what the above are. And not everyone can afford a large number of
> tests kits. So we tend to stick to the plants that thrive for us with a
> minimum of supplements.
> --
> KL

Hi,
You know what baking soda is? Sodium bicarbonate.
If stump remover(KNO3) works better for you, that's simple enough.

I'm not suggsting you buy a test kit, I never once did.
Actually quite the opposite, but if you want to verify vai a test kit,
you may, but then you also need to make some standard solutions of
known amounts of NO3 to make sure the test kit is not in error. Many
folks have made that mistake and still do.

NO3= nitrAte

There are many acronyms that chemist, hobbyists, feeble minded people
like myself use. LFS is a common one few outside our hobby might
know........
Any chem formula is easy to search to see what it might be.

You do have google search right here on the page after all:)
Still, it sounds all Greek if you are not a little familar with it.
You see the fertilizer bags for your lawn etc, they have 3 numbers,
NPK, % of the these same fertilizers, Nitrogen(N), Phosphorus(P), and
Potassium(K).

Now Farmer Bigweed is no chemist either..............but he knows that
adding his fertilizer 3x a week on his rice keeps the algae back and
the rice growing well.
He's a little worried that his crops might get burned from all this
fertilizer and potential for build up.

So he drains the field once a week and then adds the fertilizer right
back to prevent any residual build up.

The main difference between us and Farmer Bigweed is that we use only
dose NO3, not NH4 (Ammonium, you know the stuff that kills fish real
well even if there's a little).

Otherwise, it's the same............

Farmer Bigweed needs no test kits because he knows how much water
volume is in his fields, and he knows how much kilograms of fertilizer
he needs to add to get a good level of NO3.

So if he changes say 50% of the water in the rice field, he will never
build uop more than 2x the maxmimum amount dosed for that week.

You can easily estimate tha ppms using a dosing caluculator on
line(there are many, see Chuck Gadd's dosing calculator).

I know adding 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 will add 10-11ppm of NO3 to an 20
gal tank for each dose.

So if I dose 3x a week: 30ppm total.

If I assume that the plants will not take up any and do weekly 50%
water changes, the max build up possible is 60ppm NO3.

This is a simple mathmatical equation referred to as an infinite series
of dilutions.

Now if the plants do take up nutrients, say 20ppm a week, then the
range will be about 25-40ppm all week.

So what about if the plants grow real fast?
The max uptake for NO3 is about 4 ppm per day in packed tank with no
fish and very high light and high CO2 etc.

4x 7 = 28ppm.

So dosing 30ppm for a higher light tank will never run out of
NO3............and thus no tank with less light will also run out of
nutrients either.

The water changes prevent build ups. You can change less or more %%% if
you so chose, more will lead to great accuracy and less build up.
Less will lead to lesser accuracy and more potential build up.

A little math and chem is needed for the hobby to deal with some things
like BBA or BGA if they reoccur, but it's better than suffering also
for years...............

But how much do you really need before you can deal with things on a
practical level?
Do you need all those test kits like Beelezabubba from the University
claims to add ferts to rice to get rid of your algae issue in the rice
field?

No........some simple dosing methods/routines are all that's needed,
they are generally more accurate than the test kits anyway.

I did not nor do most folks in this hobby decide to keep tanks in order
to test water, water testing is not my "hobby".
I like plants, so I add ferts for them to grow well/the best and watch
their responses.

EI is a simjple method, about as simple and cheap as you are going to
get, folks get weird when the first try to wonder about the "why", the
how is very easy..........

Give me a tank volume and light, whether you use CO2 or not, and I can
prescribe a very simple, cheap way to dose it and target these levels.

You can read more about EI and there's even an "EI light" version
around on the web etc

http://www.barrreport.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4

Regards,
Tom Barr

Koi-Lo

June 28th 06, 02:27 AM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >It's not fair to have people believe of they add these supplements they
>>*WILL* work regardless of gallonage, filters, lighting or fish load. That
>>is unless there's a money-back guarantee, which there isn't.
>
>
> They will work. You're doing *something* wrong. Get over it.
===========================
When people failed to get-rich-quick with the pyramid scheme they were told
the same thing - the blame was put on them. ;-)

There was nothing else I could do but add the recommended amounts of these
products to the tanks. I guess they have the wrong amounts on the
containers. People should know that before purchasing these products.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Koi-Lo

June 28th 06, 02:29 AM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>>And yet I continued on using the supplements since I already had them -
>>bought and paid for. Did you think I threw then away? I'm still using
>>them. The old plants are doing fine as they always have. Most of the new
>>ones are dead and gone. Some black sooty and black hairy algae remains.
>
> Try removing it.
========================
I already did that weeks ago. New algae takes it's place on the leaf edges.
There isn't as much but it certainly isn't gone nor has it turned white.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Koi-Lo

June 28th 06, 02:54 AM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>>Supplementary "food" then. But without test kits there is no way to know
>>if
>>these "foods" are balanced or not, no way to know if there's too much P
>>for
>>the N available etc.
>
> Somebody hasn't been paying attention.
>
> Try google for "estimative index".
>
> Or http://aquaria.net/articles/plants/barr-dose/
=====================================
OK, so you buy the chemicals and "estimate." That can work I suppose. I
bought the Seachem products. I followed the amounts on the containers of
Excel, Iron and trace elements. The new plants still slowly faded
away......
--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on
the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Koi-Lo

June 28th 06, 03:06 AM

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Koi-Lo wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> >
>> > You need to provide a nice range of nutrients for plants in order for
>> > them to grow well, not too low=> algae, not too high=> dead fish from
>> > very high NO3(100ppm or more using KNO3)
>> ====================
>> Not everyone knows what you're talking about. Not being a chemist, I
>> have
>> no idea what the above are. And not everyone can afford a large number
>> of
>> tests kits. So we tend to stick to the plants that thrive for us with a
>> minimum of supplements.
>> --
>> KL
======================
> Hi,
> You know what baking soda is? Sodium bicarbonate.
> If stump remover(KNO3) works better for you, that's simple enough.
>
> I'm not suggsting you buy a test kit, I never once did.
> Actually quite the opposite, but if you want to verify vai a test kit,
> you may, but then you also need to make some standard solutions of
> known amounts of NO3 to make sure the test kit is not in error. Many
> folks have made that mistake and still do.
>
> NO3= nitrAte
>
> There are many acronyms that chemist, hobbyists, feeble minded people
> like myself use. LFS is a common one few outside our hobby might
> know........
> Any chem formula is easy to search to see what it might be.
>
> You do have google search right here on the page after all:)
> Still, it sounds all Greek if you are not a little familar with it.
> You see the fertilizer bags for your lawn etc, they have 3 numbers,
> NPK, % of the these same fertilizers, Nitrogen(N), Phosphorus(P), and
> Potassium(K).

Yes. Those are the ones I'm familiar with - along with the micronutrients
mentioned on the containers of regular houseplant fertilizers.

> Now Farmer Bigweed is no chemist either..............but he knows that
> adding his fertilizer 3x a week on his rice keeps the algae back and
> the rice growing well.
> He's a little worried that his crops might get burned from all this
> fertilizer and potential for build up.
>
> So he drains the field once a week and then adds the fertilizer right
> back to prevent any residual build up.

I see.

> The main difference between us and Farmer Bigweed is that we use only
> dose NO3, not NH4 (Ammonium, you know the stuff that kills fish real
> well even if there's a little).

I know the stuff.

> Otherwise, it's the same............
> Farmer Bigweed needs no test kits because he knows how much water
> volume is in his fields, and he knows how much kilograms of fertilizer
> he needs to add to get a good level of NO3.
>
> So if he changes say 50% of the water in the rice field, he will never
> build uop more than 2x the maxmimum amount dosed for that week.
>
> You can easily estimate tha ppms using a dosing caluculator on
> line(there are many, see Chuck Gadd's dosing calculator).

> I know adding 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 will add 10-11ppm of NO3 to an 20
> gal tank for each dose.
>
> So if I dose 3x a week: 30ppm total.
>
> If I assume that the plants will not take up any and do weekly 50%
> water changes, the max build up possible is 60ppm NO3.
>
> This is a simple mathmatical equation referred to as an infinite series
> of dilutions.
>
> 4x 7 = 28ppm.

Brevity snip!

> Give me a tank volume and light, whether you use CO2 or not, and I can
> prescribe a very simple, cheap way to dose it and target these levels.

OK... I have 55g tanks and 10g tanks,... all planted. I would love the
information and where I can get cheap fertilizers without the high cost of
shipping and handling ($18 per order). Potassium nitrate is not available
in my area.

> You can read more about EI and there's even an "EI light" version
> around on the web etc
>
> http://www.barrreport.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4

Thanks... I'll check this out. :-)
--
KL.......
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Dâlmâniô©

June 28th 06, 03:22 AM

yea yea yea, potassium nitrate is available all over the place
dumbass...they just see a kook like you and deny selling you
any....ya duymbass

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:06:43 -0500, "Koi-Lo" <¤?¤@ö½.Õ..Õ¢> wrote:
nothing of worth as usual.

>
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>>
>> Koi-Lo wrote:
>>> > wrote in message
>>> ups.com...
>>> >
>>> > You need to provide a nice range of nutrients for plants in order for
>>> > them to grow well, not too low=> algae, not too high=> dead fish from
>>> > very high NO3(100ppm or more using KNO3)
>>> ====================
>>> Not everyone knows what you're talking about. Not being a chemist, I
>>> have
>>> no idea what the above are. And not everyone can afford a large number
>>> of
>>> tests kits. So we tend to stick to the plants that thrive for us with a
>>> minimum of supplements.
>>> --
>>> KL
>======================
>> Hi,
>> You know what baking soda is? Sodium bicarbonate.
>> If stump remover(KNO3) works better for you, that's simple enough.
>>
>> I'm not suggsting you buy a test kit, I never once did.
>> Actually quite the opposite, but if you want to verify vai a test kit,
>> you may, but then you also need to make some standard solutions of
>> known amounts of NO3 to make sure the test kit is not in error. Many
>> folks have made that mistake and still do.
>>
>> NO3= nitrAte
>>
>> There are many acronyms that chemist, hobbyists, feeble minded people
>> like myself use. LFS is a common one few outside our hobby might
>> know........
>> Any chem formula is easy to search to see what it might be.
>>
>> You do have google search right here on the page after all:)
>> Still, it sounds all Greek if you are not a little familar with it.
>> You see the fertilizer bags for your lawn etc, they have 3 numbers,
>> NPK, % of the these same fertilizers, Nitrogen(N), Phosphorus(P), and
>> Potassium(K).
>
>Yes. Those are the ones I'm familiar with - along with the micronutrients
>mentioned on the containers of regular houseplant fertilizers.
>
>> Now Farmer Bigweed is no chemist either..............but he knows that
>> adding his fertilizer 3x a week on his rice keeps the algae back and
>> the rice growing well.
>> He's a little worried that his crops might get burned from all this
>> fertilizer and potential for build up.
>>
>> So he drains the field once a week and then adds the fertilizer right
>> back to prevent any residual build up.
>
>I see.
>
>> The main difference between us and Farmer Bigweed is that we use only
>> dose NO3, not NH4 (Ammonium, you know the stuff that kills fish real
>> well even if there's a little).
>
>I know the stuff.
>
>> Otherwise, it's the same............
>> Farmer Bigweed needs no test kits because he knows how much water
>> volume is in his fields, and he knows how much kilograms of fertilizer
>> he needs to add to get a good level of NO3.
>>
>> So if he changes say 50% of the water in the rice field, he will never
>> build uop more than 2x the maxmimum amount dosed for that week.
>>
>> You can easily estimate tha ppms using a dosing caluculator on
>> line(there are many, see Chuck Gadd's dosing calculator).
>
>> I know adding 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 will add 10-11ppm of NO3 to an 20
>> gal tank for each dose.
>>
>> So if I dose 3x a week: 30ppm total.
>>
>> If I assume that the plants will not take up any and do weekly 50%
>> water changes, the max build up possible is 60ppm NO3.
>>
>> This is a simple mathmatical equation referred to as an infinite series
>> of dilutions.
>>
>> 4x 7 = 28ppm.
>
>Brevity snip!
>
>> Give me a tank volume and light, whether you use CO2 or not, and I can
>> prescribe a very simple, cheap way to dose it and target these levels.
>
>OK... I have 55g tanks and 10g tanks,... all planted. I would love the
>information and where I can get cheap fertilizers without the high cost of
>shipping and handling ($18 per order). Potassium nitrate is not available
>in my area.
>
>> You can read more about EI and there's even an "EI light" version
>> around on the web etc
>>
>>
>
>Thanks... I'll check this out. :-)

You can reach -Ed Alston at

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Richard Sexton

June 28th 06, 06:59 PM

>> Or http://aquaria.net/articles/plants/barr-dose/
>=====================================
>OK, so you buy the chemicals and "estimate." That can work I suppose. I
>bought the Seachem products. I followed the amounts on the containers of
>Excel, Iron and trace elements. The new plants still slowly faded
>away......

If you're not adding KNO3 that's your problem.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

June 28th 06, 07:20 PM

In article >,
Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>OK... I have 55g tanks and 10g tanks,... all planted. I would love the
>information and where I can get cheap fertilizers without the high cost of
>shipping and handling ($18 per order). Potassium nitrate is not available
>in my area.

-------------------
From: Richard Sexton - view profile
Date: Mon, Mar 27 2006 12:15 am

In article >,

Koi-Lo > wrote:

>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>>Do you know a good online place to buy hydroponic fertilizers? I can't
>>>find
>>>anywhere local that sells the stuff.

>> http://gregwatson.com
>=========================
>Thanks Richard.

---------------------------

From: Richard Sexton - view profile
Date: Mon, Feb 27 2006 1:33 pm
In article >,

Koi-Lo > wrote:
>> Not aquarium fertilizers.

>$3.79 for 8 oz. of aquarium fertilizer isn't cheap when you have a lot of
>tanks, some of them large.

You're paying for water and platic. You need to get the dry checmicals
from gregwatson.com or any hydroponics.com franchise. $4 a pound for
KN03 will treat aobuot 10,000 gallosn for about a year.

----------------------------

From: Richard Sexton - view profile
Date: Wed, Mar 29 2006 4:54 pm
In article >,

Koi-Lo > wrote:

>"2pods" > wrote in message
...
>> I use Seachem "Flourish".
>> I'm also thinking about Seachem "Excel" in addition.
>==================
>These are excellent products but it can get expensive if you have a lot of
>tanks or have large tanks.

True enough. But, http://www.gregwatson.com sells powders in bulk
so you can make your own. Excel has no second source though (dammit).

Greg's stuff is very very cheap.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Koi-Lo

June 28th 06, 07:56 PM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>> Or http://aquaria.net/articles/plants/barr-dose/
>>=====================================
>>OK, so you buy the chemicals and "estimate." That can work I suppose. I
>>bought the Seachem products. I followed the amounts on the containers of
>>Excel, Iron and trace elements. The new plants still slowly faded
>>away......
>
> If you're not adding KNO3 that's your problem.
=======================
I added Muriate of Potash. None of the local stores I called had Potassium
Nitrate. The Seachem "Flourish" also contains Potash.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Koi-Lo

June 28th 06, 08:09 PM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>>OK... I have 55g tanks and 10g tanks,... all planted. I would love the
>>information and where I can get cheap fertilizers without the high cost of
>>shipping and handling ($18 per order). Potassium nitrate is not available
>>in my area.
>
> -------------------
> From: Richard Sexton - view profile
> Date: Mon, Mar 27 2006 12:15 am
>
> In article >,
>
> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>
>>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>> In article >,
>>> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>>>Do you know a good online place to buy hydroponic fertilizers? I can't
>>>>find
>>>>anywhere local that sells the stuff.
>
>>> http://gregwatson.com
======
I've already checked out that site last time. 1 lb of Potassium Nitrate from
Greg is $12.08 w/S&H charges. I can get a 4 lb bag of Muriate of Potash
for $1.49 locally. I believe this has been discussed here before. I didn't
see any mixes there that contained all the "micronutrients."

> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>> Not aquarium fertilizers.
>
>>$3.79 for 8 oz. of aquarium fertilizer isn't cheap when you have a lot of
>>tanks, some of them large.

> You're paying for water and platic. You need to get the dry checmicals
> from gregwatson.com or any hydroponics.com franchise. $4 a pound for
> KN03 will treat aobuot 10,000 gallosn for about a year.

He charges more to ship it than the cost of the product or does he not
charge you S&H fees? 1 lb of Potassium Nitrate from Greg is $12.08 w/S&H
charges

> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>
>>"2pods" > wrote in message
...
>>> I use Seachem "Flourish".
>>> I'm also thinking about Seachem "Excel" in addition.
>>==================
>>These are excellent products but it can get expensive if you have a lot of
>>tanks or have large tanks.
>
> True enough. But, http://www.gregwatson.com sells powders in bulk
> so you can make your own. Excel has no second source though (dammit).
> Greg's stuff is very very cheap.

If he doesn't add S&H charges. S&H isn't free. $12.08 for 1 lb of
PNitrate isn't cheap for some of us retired folk.

--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on
the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Wëndãlen©

June 28th 06, 08:11 PM

Face it Carol, your just a cheap bitch ain't ya. Anyone who feeds
their fish cat food from Wally world. Oh, why not make uo yoour mind.,
ONe minute yu and mushroom Randy has a business the next time your
both retired.....too many lies to keep straight I presume......Maybe
the state of TN,needs to be sent a note sinc eyur selling or bartering
in fish and goods and goods are afterall tax able in that state as
they are considered an income, since they are more of a hobby item
than a food item, so they are not considered a non-taxable bartered
item like corn and potatoes would be......and with the amount yu claim
to sell and trade I am sure its worth the IRS of TN to look into it...

Only one thing worse thana freaking liar Carol and thats a tax cheat
who likes to make the mney and get the goods but scrrew the government
out and let others makeup the losses while you count the profits...

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:09:52 -0500, "Koi-Lo" <¤?¤@ö½.Õ..Õ¢> wrote:

>
>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>>>OK... I have 55g tanks and 10g tanks,... all planted. I would love the
>>>information and where I can get cheap fertilizers without the high cost of
>>>shipping and handling ($18 per order). Potassium nitrate is not available
>>>in my area.
>>
>> -------------------
>> From: Richard Sexton - view profile
>> Date: Mon, Mar 27 2006 12:15 am
>>
>> In article >,
>>
>> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>
>>>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>>> In article >,
>>>> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>>>>Do you know a good online place to buy hydroponic fertilizers? I can't
>>>>>find
>>>>>anywhere local that sells the stuff.
>>
>>>> http://gregwatson.com
>======
>I've already checked out that site last time. 1 lb of Potassium Nitrate from
>Greg is $12.08 w/S&H charges. I can get a 4 lb bag of Muriate of Potash
>for $1.49 locally. I believe this has been discussed here before. I didn't
>see any mixes there that contained all the "micronutrients."
>
>> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>>> Not aquarium fertilizers.
>>
>>>$3.79 for 8 oz. of aquarium fertilizer isn't cheap when you have a lot of
>>>tanks, some of them large.
>
>> You're paying for water and platic. You need to get the dry checmicals
>> from gregwatson.com or any hydroponics.com franchise. $4 a pound for
>> KN03 will treat aobuot 10,000 gallosn for about a year.
>
>He charges more to ship it than the cost of the product or does he not
>charge you S&H fees? 1 lb of Potassium Nitrate from Greg is $12.08 w/S&H
>charges
>
>> Koi-Lo > wrote:
>>
>>>"2pods" > wrote in message
...
>>>> I use Seachem "Flourish".
>>>> I'm also thinking about Seachem "Excel" in addition.
>>>==================
>>>These are excellent products but it can get expensive if you have a lot of
>>>tanks or have large tanks.
>>
>> True enough. But, http://www.gregwatson.com sells powders in bulk
>> so you can make your own. Excel has no second source though (dammit).
>> Greg's stuff is very very cheap.
>
>If he doesn't add S&H charges. S&H isn't free. $12.08 for 1 lb of
>PNitrate isn't cheap for some of us retired folk.

You can reach -Ed Alston at

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Richard Sexton

June 29th 06, 01:20 AM

In article >,
Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>
>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>>> Or http://aquaria.net/articles/plants/barr-dose/
>>>=====================================
>>>OK, so you buy the chemicals and "estimate." That can work I suppose. I
>>>bought the Seachem products. I followed the amounts on the containers of
>>>Excel, Iron and trace elements. The new plants still slowly faded
>>>away......
>>
>> If you're not adding KNO3 that's your problem.
>=======================
>I added Muriate of Potash. None of the local stores I called had Potassium
>Nitrate. The Seachem "Flourish" also contains Potash.

That's potassium chloride. It's a wonder you haven't killed everything
frankly. Who on earth told you to do this?

At least you've found your answer. Way too much potassium and way not
enough nitrate.

You know it might not hurt to familiarize yourself with prior art before
attacking people successful at what you're trying to do while ignoring
their advice.

Just a thought.

It occurs to me a weekly faq of how to fertilize plants might not
be a bad idea.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton

June 29th 06, 01:22 AM

In article >,
Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>If he doesn't add S&H charges. S&H isn't free. $12.08 for 1 lb of
>PNitrate isn't cheap for some of us retired folk.

May I suggest a pet lizard instead then? Bugs are free food.

I have 15 tanks, two large ones and a pound lasts me about 2 years.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Wëndãlen©

June 29th 06, 01:28 AM

Carol knows all and no one s going to be able to tell Carol a dam
thing. As long at it had potassium in it thats all that mattered. She
being an uneducated boob thought it was just another brand name for
the same item........duh! I would not be surprised she probbaly even
uses it in place of potassium permangamnte and wondered why it done
her fish in......Carol is a total asshole. And its no wonder folks do
not like to see her give nay advice to folks. She has a pretty good
track record of giving out erroneous info...especially when it comes
to bettas....everythng CArol does is on the CHEAP side and goes into
it uneducated and armed only with **** she reads o nthe internet and
assumes is the facts, after all its onthe internet is it not, so it
musyt be true. Wekk if thats the case then CAROL GULLEY IS A FREAKING
KOOK! Bet she will debate yu over that statement though........and in
the end she is gonna prove you wrong sa she will now twist your posts
to reflect her side being right and discredit your side, and then
maybe even sic her sock puppets on you. See where you get with her for
trying to be a nice guy! See why these grups are like they are....Can
you say CAROL!

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:20:01 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>In article >,
>Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>>
>>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>>>> Or http://aquaria.net/articles/plants/barr-dose/
>>>>=====================================
>>>>OK, so you buy the chemicals and "estimate." That can work I suppose. I
>>>>bought the Seachem products. I followed the amounts on the containers of
>>>>Excel, Iron and trace elements. The new plants still slowly faded
>>>>away......
>>>
>>> If you're not adding KNO3 that's your problem.
>>=======================
>>I added Muriate of Potash. None of the local stores I called had Potassium
>>Nitrate. The Seachem "Flourish" also contains Potash.
>
>That's potassium chloride. It's a wonder you haven't killed everything
>frankly. Who on earth told you to do this?
>
>At least you've found your answer. Way too much potassium and way not
>enough nitrate.
>
>You know it might not hurt to familiarize yourself with prior art before
>attacking people successful at what you're trying to do while ignoring
>their advice.
>
>Just a thought.
>
>It occurs to me a weekly faq of how to fertilize plants might not
>be a bad idea.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Wëndãlen©

June 29th 06, 01:32 AM

Evidently you have not visted rec.herpes have you. Carol is also the
resident guru there as she keeps 2,186 species of frogs, turtles and
lizzards and other assorted reps, in her 4 story, 8 axle single wide
victorian mobile home with LP Gas bottles on the tongue with a fancey
cover..that she hand painted with butterflies.

And Carol would not just feed her lizzards and frogs just any old
bugs, she imports them from Brooklyn NY as they grow bigger in her old
neighborhood........

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:22:59 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>In article >,
>Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>>If he doesn't add S&H charges. S&H isn't free. $12.08 for 1 lb of
>>PNitrate isn't cheap for some of us retired folk.
>
>May I suggest a pet lizard instead then? Bugs are free food.
>
>I have 15 tanks, two large ones and a pound lasts me about 2 years.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Koi-Lo

June 29th 06, 03:48 AM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>>
>>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>>>> Or http://aquaria.net/articles/plants/barr-dose/
>>>>=====================================
>>>>OK, so you buy the chemicals and "estimate." That can work I suppose.
>>>>I
>>>>bought the Seachem products. I followed the amounts on the containers
>>>>of
>>>>Excel, Iron and trace elements. The new plants still slowly faded
>>>>away......
>>>
>>> If you're not adding KNO3 that's your problem.
>>=======================
>>I added Muriate of Potash. None of the local stores I called had
>>Potassium
>>Nitrate. The Seachem "Flourish" also contains Potash.
>
> That's potassium chloride. It's a wonder you haven't killed everything
> frankly. Who on earth told you to do this?

Killed everything? I just sold over 300 young koi and 150 goldfish this
spring. The fish are spawning and we have hundreds of new thriving fry.
The plant prop' tanks are loaded with tadpoles and it's also used in them.
I don't recall who suggested it.

> At least you've found your answer. Way too much potassium and way not
> enough nitrate.

Nitrate readings stay around 20 ppm so there is no lack of Nitrates.

> You know it might not hurt to familiarize yourself with prior art before
> attacking people successful at what you're trying to do while ignoring
> their advice.

Who ignored your advice? I ordered the Excel and other "foods" I call
micronutrients from Foster & Smith. I did massive water changes and vacuumed
every inch of the gravel several times over. I removed the worst effected
leaves. I used the Vortex to polish the water.... I followed directions on
the containers - you have some nerve even suggesting I ignored advice given.

> Just a thought.

> It occurs to me a weekly faq of how to fertilize plants might not
> be a bad idea.

--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Richard Sexton

June 29th 06, 07:34 PM

>Nitrate readings stay around 20 ppm so there is no lack of Nitrates.

Hobby test kits are nowhere near accurate.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[email protected]

June 29th 06, 07:43 PM

> >>OK... I have 55g tanks and 10g tanks,... all planted. I would love the
> >>information and where I can get cheap fertilizers without the high cost of
> >>shipping and handling ($18 per order). Potassium nitrate is not available
> >>in my area.

Have you tried Home Depiot , Lowes, Canadian Tire etc?
They sell stump remover.

You may want to get some ferts locally if you refuse to pay a shipping
charge, gas and running around will cost a fair amount also.

1lb or KNO3 and 1 lb of KH2PO4 and maybe some CMS+B(the trace element
dry mix which is enough to make several gallons of trace mix for 1
pound) might make that shiiping charge seem for cheap.

For 25$ or so with the shipping, you can fertilize the tank for several
years and have much better growth, thus you can send and sell the
plants easy and make up that few $ in shipping charge.

You obviously have enough $$$ to have hobbies like aquariums and plants
etc, so do not give me the poor me routine.

That's your own barrier you place on yourself there.
You have luxury items like pets, 18$ can be had by selling plants,
other things laying around if a fixed income is really the issue.

If I want something, I go get it.

But you certainly do not "need" an aquarium......nor do I...........
You can check locally, but the shipping barrier is of your own creation
and getting the ferts which are dirt cheap and last a long time will
provide the means to grow the plants much better, you just do not think
that is true is all and not worth your time/$.
Try and get the ferts of a commericial brand cheaper, you cannot do
it.They might cost less initially but after one round of dosing, there
goes the cost and you have to pay tax, extra for a pretty label and you
get 500X less ferts.

That's fine, but it's not because they are $$ on shipping.
18$ can be had many ways if the cost is an issue.
Ebay or Craig's list something.

We got brains, so putting them use to pay for something you want is not
too hard.

Our local plant club suspended memebership dues 2 years ago.
We generate all of our funds via plant sales to other clubs, local
folks, ebay, CL's, local fish societies that often do not have many
plants but pay well for them......
So membership is not an issue for new folks.

You might want to piggy back on someone else local to share on the
shipping also......

You have many options and ways to get around the $ issue.
But that's up to you..........

Regards,
Tom Barr

Wëndãlen©

June 29th 06, 07:54 PM

Save your breath, CArol is a freaking dumbass that is not in the habit
of taking anyones suggestions. Only she knows what is best.Everyone
else is guessing and does not have a clue.

..On 29 Jun 2006 11:43:58 -0700, wrote:

>> >>OK... I have 55g tanks and 10g tanks,... all planted. I would love the
>> >>information and where I can get cheap fertilizers without the high cost of
>> >>shipping and handling ($18 per order). Potassium nitrate is not available
>> >>in my area.
>
>Have you tried Home Depiot , Lowes, Canadian Tire etc?
>They sell stump remover.
>
>You may want to get some ferts locally if you refuse to pay a shipping
>charge, gas and running around will cost a fair amount also.
>
>1lb or KNO3 and 1 lb of KH2PO4 and maybe some CMS+B(the trace element
>dry mix which is enough to make several gallons of trace mix for 1
>pound) might make that shiiping charge seem for cheap.
>
>For 25$ or so with the shipping, you can fertilize the tank for several
>years and have much better growth, thus you can send and sell the
>plants easy and make up that few $ in shipping charge.
>
>You obviously have enough $$$ to have hobbies like aquariums and plants
>etc, so do not give me the poor me routine.
>
>That's your own barrier you place on yourself there.
>You have luxury items like pets, 18$ can be had by selling plants,
>other things laying around if a fixed income is really the issue.
>
>If I want something, I go get it.
>
>But you certainly do not "need" an aquarium......nor do I...........
>You can check locally, but the shipping barrier is of your own creation
>and getting the ferts which are dirt cheap and last a long time will
>provide the means to grow the plants much better, you just do not think
>that is true is all and not worth your time/$.
>Try and get the ferts of a commericial brand cheaper, you cannot do
>it.They might cost less initially but after one round of dosing, there
>goes the cost and you have to pay tax, extra for a pretty label and you
>get 500X less ferts.
>
>That's fine, but it's not because they are $$ on shipping.
>18$ can be had many ways if the cost is an issue.
>Ebay or Craig's list something.
>
>We got brains, so putting them use to pay for something you want is not
>too hard.
>
>Our local plant club suspended memebership dues 2 years ago.
>We generate all of our funds via plant sales to other clubs, local
>folks, ebay, CL's, local fish societies that often do not have many
>plants but pay well for them......
>So membership is not an issue for new folks.
>
>You might want to piggy back on someone else local to share on the
>shipping also......
>
>You have many options and ways to get around the $ issue.
>But that's up to you..........
>
>Regards,
>Tom Barr

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Wëndãlen©

June 29th 06, 07:55 PM

Quit knocking Carols test kits, She is the pond and plant and fish
guru, so shut up sit down and pay attention to what the bitch is
telling "you."

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:34:25 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>>Nitrate readings stay around 20 ppm so there is no lack of Nitrates.
>
>Hobby test kits are nowhere near accurate.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Richard Sexton

June 29th 06, 07:57 PM

The other problem, Carol, is that some hobby test kits are "affected by
nitrate". Plus you have some mess of chloride ions in there.

If you look at any good gardening book it'll tell you to be very careful
tiel Potassium chloride.

Change 80% of the water in two days in a row, then fertilize properly,
which I mentioned to you last Februrary (march and april).

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Wëndãlen©

June 29th 06, 08:43 PM

dum de dum de de dum la la lla llalalala I can't hear yu says CArol ,
I am not paying any attention says CArol , yu do not know what yur
talking about, only me, CArol, knows what the proper method and
proeceedure is....hhmmmmmmmla lalaallalllaaalllaalalalal......do what
trash 80% of my water, yu gotta be nuts I am a frugal ponder. I knoow
that is not right, lal lalalala.......

..On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:57:18 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>The other problem, Carol, is that some hobby test kits are "affected by
>nitrate". Plus you have some mess of chloride ions in there.
>
>If you look at any good gardening book it'll tell you to be very careful
>tiel Potassium chloride.
>
>Change 80% of the water in two days in a row, then fertilize properly,
>which I mentioned to you last Februrary (march and april).

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Gill Pissman

June 30th 06, 12:37 AM

Just a cheap assed bitch huh Carol?
On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:41:23 -0500, "Koi-Lo" <¤?¤@ö½.Õ..Õ¢> wrote:

>
>"Wëndãlen©" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>> Quit knocking Carols test kits, She is the pond and plant and fish
>> guru, so shut up sit down and pay attention to what the bitch is
>> telling "you."
>>
>> On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:34:25 +0000 (UTC),
>> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>>
>>>>Nitrate readings stay around 20 ppm so there is no lack of Nitrates.
>>>
>>>Hobby test kits are nowhere near accurate.
>==========================
>So I've heard. The test kits that are accurate are hundreds of dollars,
>therefore out of the question to purchase for many of us. We have to rely
>on what we have, also assuming our fish are providing nitrate the plats can
>use.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Koi-Lo

June 30th 06, 12:41 AM

"Wëndãlen©" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Quit knocking Carols test kits, She is the pond and plant and fish
> guru, so shut up sit down and pay attention to what the bitch is
> telling "you."
>
> On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:34:25 +0000 (UTC),
> (Richard Sexton) wrote:
>
>>>Nitrate readings stay around 20 ppm so there is no lack of Nitrates.
>>
>>Hobby test kits are nowhere near accurate.
==========================
So I've heard. The test kits that are accurate are hundreds of dollars,
therefore out of the question to purchase for many of us. We have to rely
on what we have, also assuming our fish are providing nitrate the plats can
use.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Richard Sexton

June 30th 06, 02:37 AM

>>>Hobby test kits are nowhere near accurate.
>==========================
>So I've heard. The test kits that are accurate are hundreds of dollars,
>therefore out of the question to purchase for many of us. We have to rely
>on what we have, also assuming our fish are providing nitrate the plats can
>use.

You don't need test kits. Read Tom's message again.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Koi-Lo

June 30th 06, 05:38 AM

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>> >>OK... I have 55g tanks and 10g tanks,... all planted. I would love the
>> >>information and where I can get cheap fertilizers without the high cost
>> >>of
>> >>shipping and handling ($18 per order). Potassium nitrate is not
>> >>available
>> >>in my area.
>
> Have you tried Home Depiot , Lowes, Canadian Tire etc?
> They sell stump remover.

I live in the USA and none of these places carry it. I never heard of
Canadian Tire. I even tried a health food store. They didn't have it
either. Most places carry fertilizers as mixes such as 5-10-5 or 10-10-10
etc or organic products such as bone mean or blood meal. In my outdoor
gardens I use some woodash from the fire place and regular garden mixes
above. I only found one place called Martin's, run by Mennonites that sold
Potash, Nitrates and Phos' separately.

> You may want to get some ferts locally if you refuse to pay a shipping
> charge, gas and running around will cost a fair amount also.

I looked for them locally. All I found was Muriate of Potash and those
mentioned above.

> 1lb or KNO3 and 1 lb of KH2PO4 and maybe some CMS+B(the trace element
> dry mix which is enough to make several gallons of trace mix for 1
> pound) might make that shiiping charge seem for cheap.

It would be $30 for all the stuff on the Gregwatson page but I didn't see
any micronutrients there. I would then have to get someone to figure out the
mixtures per tank according to gallonage and fish load etc. Since there is
no guarantee these products will work any better than the expensive Seachem
products, I hesitate to purchase them.

> For 25$ or so with the shipping, you can fertilize the tank for several
> years and have much better growth, thus you can send and sell the
> plants easy and make up that few $ in shipping charge.

But what makes you believe these products will work better than the Seachem
products? No store will take plants with black-red algae even for free. My
pond plants are raised at pot-top water level so have no algae problems. Do
you mean adding extra NPK will kill off the algae like the Exel was supposed
to do? And if I add these other products then there will be a CO2 shortage
and I fear I'll be told to buy even more products to add that to the
water....... where does it end?

> You obviously have enough $$$ to have hobbies like aquariums and plants
> etc, so do not give me the poor me routine.

Yes, and I already spend a lot more on this hobby than I should.

> That's your own barrier you place on yourself there.
> You have luxury items like pets, 18$ can be had by selling plants,
> other things laying around if a fixed income is really the issue.

I'll see of there's a market here for aquarium plants. The chains will not
even take them for free.

> If I want something, I go get it.

As do I. I got the other products I was told to purchase and they didn't
work, so why would I believe these other products will work? Especially
without added CO2 gas forced into the tanks. If they don't work and get rid
of the red-black algae then what? More money down the drain and I'll be
told I did something "wrong" again. Then more products will be suggested?
I spend well over $120 on plants, the extra lighting for the tanks, the
Excel, iron and other "nutrients" and the new plants happily faded away.
Meanwhile the old plants kept right on trucking.

> But you certainly do not "need" an aquarium......nor do I...........
> You can check locally, but the shipping barrier is of your own creation
> and getting the ferts which are dirt cheap and last a long time will
> provide the means to grow the plants much better, you just do not think
> that is true is all and not worth your time/$.

See above. The other products that were recommended did almost nothing
after the initial "boost" to the plants. What makes you think these other
products will work?

> Try and get the ferts of a commericial brand cheaper, you cannot do
> it.They might cost less initially but after one round of dosing, there
> goes the cost and you have to pay tax, extra for a pretty label and you
> get 500X less ferts.
> That's fine, but it's not because they are $$ on shipping.
> 18$ can be had many ways if the cost is an issue.
> Ebay or Craig's list something.

If I *KNEW* they would work I would order them. First I have no added CO2
which will be the next thing someone suggests is needed when adding all
these GredWatson "foods" to the tanks.... right? How can the plants
utilize the extra food without added CO2? Apparently Excel does nothing but
slow the growth of algae - from what I have seen in my tanks.

> We got brains, so putting them use to pay for something you want is not
> too hard.
> Our local plant club suspended memebership dues 2 years ago.
> We generate all of our funds via plant sales to other clubs, local
> folks, ebay, CL's, local fish societies that often do not have many
> plants but pay well for them......
> So membership is not an issue for new folks.

There is nothing like that were I live. We have a pond club but they don't
bother with aquarium plants.

> You might want to piggy back on someone else local to share on the
> shipping also......
> You have many options and ways to get around the $ issue.
> But that's up to you..........

See above. Since the Seachem products did nothing for the new plants (why
were they even recommended?), and only a little for the old ones, I hesitate
to spend even more on products that will also fail to keep new and different
plants alive. The other expense would be to discard all the plants I have
and sterilize all the tanks to get rid of the black-red algae first. Then
start all over again with all new plants free of this RB algae plague - if
that's even possible. Then order all the "foods" from Greg and see what
happens...... if they fail as did the Seachem products I'll be told to
order a CO2 infuser so the plants can utilize all these foods. Or someone
will claim the four 40w tubes are all wrong and to purchase xxxxx brand
tubes. All I wanted was some new plants for a change and to get rid of the
RB algae, not get involved into an expensive major project with no guarantee
or certainty of succeeding.

I can't help notice you didn't mention lighting or CO2 injection when
recommending I use all these GregWatson additives/fertilizers.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Gill Pissman

June 30th 06, 01:36 PM

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 23:38:00 -0500, "Koi-Lo" <¤?¤@ö½.Õ..Õ¢> wrote:

>
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>>> >>OK... I have 55g tanks and 10g tanks,... all planted. I would love the
>>> >>information and where I can get cheap fertilizers without the high cost
>>> >>of
>>> >>shipping and handling ($18 per order). Potassium nitrate is not
>>> >>available
>>> >>in my area.
>>
>> Have you tried Home Depiot , Lowes, Canadian Tire etc?
>> They sell stump remover.
>
>I live in the USA and none of these places carry it. I never heard of
>Canadian Tire. I even tried a health food store. They didn't have it
>either. Most places carry fertilizers as mixes such as 5-10-5 or 10-10-10
>etc or organic products such as bone mean or blood meal. In my outdoor
>gardens I use some woodash from the fire place and regular garden mixes
>above. I only found one place called Martin's, run by Mennonites that sold
>Potash, Nitrates and Phos' separately.

Oh and just because you live nthe USA do yu think you should have
special treatment. So ****ing what I live i the USA too and can get
any of the crap....real easy. Your just too ****ing lazy CArol, you
would rather propagate socks
>
>> You may want to get some ferts locally if you refuse to pay a shipping
>> charge, gas and running around will cost a fair amount also.
>
>I looked for them locally. All I found was Muriate of Potash and those
>mentioned above.
You ****, yur too busy ****ing off and lying to do any legg work and
too chepa to call on a phone long distance perhaps
>
>> 1lb or KNO3 and 1 lb of KH2PO4 and maybe some CMS+B(the trace element
>> dry mix which is enough to make several gallons of trace mix for 1
>> pound) might make that shiiping charge seem for cheap.
>
>It would be $30 for all the stuff on the Gregwatson page but I didn't see
>any micronutrients there. I would then have to get someone to figure out the
>mixtures per tank according to gallonage and fish load etc. Since there is
>no guarantee these products will work any better than the expensive Seachem
>products, I hesitate to purchase them.

Like I said yur a cheap old bitch CArol
>
>> For 25$ or so with the shipping, you can fertilize the tank for several
>> years and have much better growth, thus you can send and sell the
>> plants easy and make up that few $ in shipping charge.

Too much work for CArol, She does not do anywhere near what she claims
she does its all talk no action
>
>But what makes you believe these products will work better than the Seachem
>products? No store will take plants with black-red algae even for free. My
>pond plants are raised at pot-top water level so have no algae problems. Do
>you mean adding extra NPK will kill off the algae like the Exel was supposed
>to do? And if I add these other products then there will be a CO2 shortage
>and I fear I'll be told to buy even more products to add that to the
>water....... where does it end?

Carol would rather argue and bitch than try
>
>> You obviously have enough $$$ to have hobbies like aquariums and plants
>> etc, so do not give me the poor me routine.
>
Carol has books full of excuses she can use.Yu have not heard a
fraction of her excuses yet..
>Yes, and I already spend a lot more on this hobby than I should.
Then get the **** out of it Carol, yuyr presents certianly will not be
missed
>
>> That's your own barrier you place on yourself there.
>> You have luxury items like pets, 18$ can be had by selling plants,
>> other things laying around if a fixed income is really the issue.

It takes energy and effort neithe rof which carol possesses
>
>I'll see of there's a market here for aquarium plants. The chains will not
>even take them for free.Who would want crap fro yu carol if it even looks half assed like you do
>
>> If I want something, I go get it.

Carol waits for mushroom randy to shoplift it. and if it won;t fit in
his pockets she says its not needed.
>
>As do I. I got the other products I was told to purchase and they didn't
>work, so why would I believe these other products will work? Especially
>without added CO2 gas forced into the tanks. If they don't work and get rid
>of the red-black algae then what? More money down the drain and I'll be
>told I did something "wrong" again. Then more products will be suggested?
>I spend well over $120 on plants, the extra lighting for the tanks, the
>Excel, iron and other "nutrients" and the new plants happily faded away.
>Meanwhile the old plants kept right on trucking.
>

Your life is down the drain why not pour the money down there tool
>> But you certainly do not "need" an aquarium......nor do I...........
>> You can check locally, but the shipping barrier is of your own creation
>> and getting the ferts which are dirt cheap and last a long time will
>> provide the means to grow the plants much better, you just do not think
>> that is true is all and not worth your time

FREE is carols version of cheap...anything else is expensive
>
>See above. The other products that were recommended did almost nothing
>after the initial "boost" to the plants. What makes you think these other
>products will work?
>

Because yu always cut corners and use improper items to achieve
desired results wh ich always fails miserably........POTASSIUM
CHLORIDE hahahahahaha
>> Try and get the ferts of a commericial brand cheaper, you cannot do
>> it.They might cost less initially but after one round of dosing, there
>> goes the cost and you have to pay tax, extra for a pretty label and you
>> get 500X less ferts.
>> That's fine, but it's not because they are $$ on shipping.
>> 18$ can be had many ways if the cost is an issue.
>> Ebay or Craig's list something.

It would take a credit card and carols cards are maxed out......
>
>If I *KNEW* they would work I would order them. First I have no added CO2
>which will be the next thing someone suggests is needed when adding all
>these GredWatson "foods" to the tanks.... right? How can the plants
>utilize the extra food without added CO2? Apparently Excel does nothing but
>slow the growth of algae - from what I have seen in my tanks.

HOme brew CO 2 is easy to make and add and operate if
needed...dumbasss!
>
>> We got brains, so putting them use to pay for something you want is not
>> too hard.
>> Our local plant club suspended memebership dues 2 years ago.
>> We generate all of our funds via plant sales to other clubs, local
>> folks, ebay, CL's, local fish societies that often do not have many
>> plants but pay well for them......
>> So membership is not an issue for new folks.
Carol lacks brains, thats a guarantee as well as morales
>
>There is nothing like that were I live. We have a pond club but they don't
>bother with aquarium plants.
Yes there is, they keep it secret as no one wants yu in their
organizations. They elect their offiers they do not allow self
appointed officers or officials.
>
>> You might want to piggy back on someone else local to share on the
>> shipping also......

Yea carol and that doe snot mean doing it doggy style, but then again
she wou dhave to have a real friend, which she does not, only socks
and internet asociates.
>> You have many options and ways to get around the $ issue.
>> But that's up to you..........
Too much effort for CArol too easy to bitch and cry about it than do
something about it....Thats CArols way.
>
>See above. Since the Seachem products did nothing for the new plants (why
>were they even recommended?), and only a little for the old ones, I hesitate
>to spend even more on products that will also fail to keep new and different
>plants alive. The other expense would be to discard all the plants I have
>and sterilize all the tanks to get rid of the black-red algae first. Then
>start all over again with all new plants free of this RB algae plague - if
>that's even possible. Then order all the "foods" from Greg and see what
>happens...... if they fail as did the Seachem products I'll be told to
>order a CO2 infuser so the plants can utilize all these foods. Or someone
>will claim the four 40w tubes are all wrong and to purchase xxxxx brand
>tubes. All I wanted was some new plants for a change and to get rid of the
>RB algae, not get involved into an expensive major project with no guarantee
>or certainty of succeeding.
>
>
I can't help notice you didn't mention lighting or CO2 injection when
>recommending I use all these GregWatson additives/fertilizers.

Face it Carol your just a ****ing dumbased carpet bagger from New York
City with a chip on her shoulder.............suffer bitch suffer.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Marco Schwarz

June 30th 06, 06:33 PM

Hi..

> It's in the APD archives. Many many times.

Thanks, Richard..! I didn't know but don't get out of
patience.. :-)
--
cu
Marco

Marco Schwarz

June 30th 06, 07:06 PM

Hi..

> Well, they are not dealing specifically with aquarium
> either........

Sorry but those biologists are fish keepers, too.

> I am specifically an Aquatic biologist

Yes.

> and I deal
> specifically with algae and aquatic weeds. Natural systems
> are radically different than artifical ones like our
> tanks. More variables...........

Well.., took notice of your link and several posts in public
databases. Thanks for all..!

> Generalizing for all BGA's in natural systems?
> That's too general and too complex to say.

See above-mentioned.

> "Well known" does not imply they are right or
> effective.......just that they are well known.......

:-) Those methods I described are of course effective, too.

> Well, drive the NO3 down and see.

Well.., I've some personal experiences in avoiding (black
and other) algae and personally I don't miss them.

> www.BarrReport.com

Interesting page I will study soon..! Thanks.
--
cu
Marco

Richard Sexton

June 30th 06, 07:23 PM

>> Have you tried Home Depiot , Lowes, Canadian Tire etc?
>> They sell stump remover.
>
>I live in the USA and none of these places carry it. I never heard of
>

Look for "stump remover". Read the label (or google the brand name).

You should be able to find one in a hardware store that contains
potassium nitrate. Most of them do.

KNOW (Potassium nitrate, saltpeter) used to be very very common and
on every drugstore shelf as it has human and animnal medicinal uses
but in a post 911 world this major component of gunpowder is now in
the "you may sign for it" category. Any drug store CAN get it for you
but it's stupid expensive.

But, it's still the only decent stump remover so try then route. It's
cheap in this form.

>> You may want to get some ferts locally if you refuse to pay a shipping
>> charge, gas and running around will cost a fair amount also.
>
>I looked for them locally. All I found was Muriate of Potash and those
>mentioned above.

Muriate of potash is Potassium chloride which is seldom used in terrestrial
gardening and when it is, carefully, and is never used in aquatic gardening.

It's essentially, salt.

Salt is Sodium chloride and Potasium chloride is essentially the exact
same thing with potassium replacing sodium. It's sometimes used as a salt
substitute for people on low sodium diets.

In an aquarium you'd be driving the potassium too high and the deleterious
effects of that are pretty well understood and the chloride ions will
do plants no good.

>> 1lb or KNO3 and 1 lb of KH2PO4 and maybe some CMS+B(the trace element
>> dry mix which is enough to make several gallons of trace mix for 1
>> pound) might make that shiiping charge seem for cheap.
>
>It would be $30 for all the stuff on the Gregwatson page but I didn't see
>any micronutrients there. I would then have to get someone to figure out the
>mixtures per tank according to gallonage and fish load etc. Since there is
>no guarantee these products will work any better than the expensive Seachem
>products, I hesitate to purchase them.

I understand the mindset of "oh god I've added all these chamicals and had
no or bad results why should I ad more". BDTD.

But, ask people what has worked. You'll find a distinct lack of Potassium
chloride and a common element in succesfull aquatic gardens is the use of
potassium nitrate. This is about 10-15 years old now in constant and daily
use and you'd be hard pressed to find it's use earlier than that.

>> For 25$ or so with the shipping, you can fertilize the tank for several
>> years and have much better growth, thus you can send and sell the
>> plants easy and make up that few $ in shipping charge.
>
>But what makes you believe these products will work better than the Seachem
>products?

Experience. Lots of it. By many people over a large number of years. The seachem
products work fine when properly used. Adding potassium chloride instead of
potassium nitrate is probably going to screw everthing up though, although it's
not a mistake I've heard of anybody making so far, so thanks for the data point.

>> That's your own barrier you place on yourself there.
>> You have luxury items like pets, 18$ can be had by selling plants,
>> other things laying around if a fixed income is really the issue.
>
>I'll see of there's a market here for aquarium plants. The chains will not
>even take them for free.

Typical. Try selling to hobbyists.

>> If I want something, I go get it.
>
>As do I. I got the other products I was told to purchase and they didn't
>work, so why would I believe these other products will work?

Asked an answered.

>> But you certainly do not "need" an aquarium......nor do I...........
>> You can check locally, but the shipping barrier is of your own creation
>> and getting the ferts which are dirt cheap and last a long time will
>> provide the means to grow the plants much better, you just do not think
>> that is true is all and not worth your time/$.
>
>See above. The other products that were recommended did almost nothing
>after the initial "boost" to the plants. What makes you think these other
>products will work?

Asked and answered.

>> Try and get the ferts of a commericial brand cheaper, you cannot do
>> it.They might cost less initially but after one round of dosing, there
>> goes the cost and you have to pay tax, extra for a pretty label and you
>> get 500X less ferts.
>> That's fine, but it's not because they are $$ on shipping.
>> 18$ can be had many ways if the cost is an issue.
>> Ebay or Craig's list something.
>
>If I *KNEW* they would work I would order them. First I have no added CO2

I don't use CO2 on purpose. I know it'll work I've seen the (spectacular)
results and know I can get MUCH better plant grown (especially crypts) if
I use it, but being a luddite at heart I want to see how good I can get
without.

>which will be the next thing someone suggests is needed when adding all
>these GredWatson "foods" to the tanks.... right? How can the plants
>utilize the extra food without added CO2? Apparently Excel does nothing but
>slow the growth of algae - from what I have seen in my tanks.

Not a good indicator given their chemical composition. Do you think the
poeple that have near-universally reported that it does do a nasty number
on alage are lying? As far as I can tell one other guy said it didn't
work for him but everybody else noted the was death on algae.

I've never tried excel without KNO3.

>See above. Since the Seachem products did nothing for the new plants (why
>were they even recommended?), and only a little for the old ones, I hesitate

Carol - you bought the wrong chemical. Try the right ones that people
have had wondefull success with.

You've been asking for 4 months how to solve this problem and many
people have told you how and you've done something different and
it didn't work.

Try doing what people have found works. Try following the answers you've
been asking for instead of making stuff up.

Barring that, try prayer.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

C. Gulley

June 30th 06, 07:35 PM

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 18:23:55 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

>>> Have you tried Home Depiot , Lowes, Canadian Tire etc?
>>> They sell stump remover.
>>
>>I live in the USA and none of these places carry it. I never heard of
>>
>
>Look for "stump remover". Read the label (or google the brand name).

They do not sell stump remover in Tennessee, They keep stumps so foks
like carols husband have stumps handy to stump break cows. Stumps are
a necessary tennesee item.
>
>You should be able to find one in a hardware store that contains
>potassium nitrate. Most of them do.

Carol already said they do not, can't you hear?
>
>KNOW (Potassium nitrate, saltpeter) used to be very very common and
>on every drugstore shelf as it has human and animnal medicinal uses
>but in a post 911 world this major component of gunpowder is now in
>the "you may sign for it" category. Any drug store CAN get it for you
>but it's stupid expensive.

Ah, thats why carol does not want to find any, its also used ot keep
hard ons down, and the last thng carol wants is a soft noodle around.
>
>But, it's still the only decent stump remover so try then route. It's
>cheap in this form.

Told ya, stemps are need in the tenessee Mt. Juliet area for Randy and
the neighbors cows........
>
>>> You may want to get some ferts locally if you refuse to pay a shipping
>>> charge, gas and running around will cost a fair amount also.

Carol steals her gas anyhow so gas is not a problem......
>>
>>I looked for them locally. All I found was Muriate of Potash and those
>>mentioned above.

That w ill do it has the name potassium and thats good enough for
Carol
>
>Muriate of potash is Potassium chloride which is seldom used in terrestrial
>gardening and when it is, carefully, and is never used in aquatic gardening.
>
Yes but CArol uses it, remember......carol knows best.
>It's essentially, salt.
>

Yea, its salt and CArol uses it for cooking also
>Salt is Sodium chloride and Potasium chloride is essentially the exact
>same thing with potassium replacing sodium. It's sometimes used as a salt
>substitute for people on low sodium diets.
>

But we like full strength salt here...
>In an aquarium you'd be driving the potassium too high and the deleterious
>effects of that are pretty well understood and the chloride ions will
>do plants no good.
>
>>> 1lb or KNO3 and 1 lb of KH2PO4 and maybe some CMS+B(the trace element
>>> dry mix which is enough to make several gallons of trace mix for 1
>>> pound) might make that shiiping charge seem for cheap.
>>

Cheap ****ers
>>It would be $30 for all the stuff on the Gregwatson page but I didn't see
>>any micronutrients there. I would then have to get someone to figure out the
>>mixtures per tank according to gallonage and fish load etc. Since there is
>>no guarantee these products will work any better than the expensive Seachem
>>products, I hesitate to purchase them.

Too much money for CArol
>
>I understand the mindset of "oh god I've added all these chamicals and had
>no or bad results why should I ad more". BDTD.
>

But CArol knows best
>But, ask people what has worked. You'll find a distinct lack of Potassium
>chloride and a common element in succesfull aquatic gardens is the use of
>potassium nitrate. This is about 10-15 years old now in constant and daily
>use and you'd be hard pressed to find it's use earlier than that.
Carol does not give a flying **** what works she is driven by $$$$
>
>>> For 25$ or so with the shipping, you can fertilize the tank for several
>>> years and have much better growth, thus you can send and sell the
>>> plants easy and make up that few $ in shipping charge.
A total of $1.00 is out of CArols budget....street corner blow jobs
are down so carols budget is history. She has had to drop her price
to 2 blow jobs for 25 cents and will swallow at least one of them.
>>
>>But what makes you believe these products will work better than the Seachem
>>products?

Dog **** mixed in at the ratio of 50:1
>
>Experience. Lots of it. By many people over a large number of years. The seachem
>products work fine when properly used. Adding potassium chloride instead of
>potassium nitrate is probably going to screw everthing up though, although it's
>not a mistake I've heard of anybody making so far, so thanks for the data point.

Carol has lots of experience, creating socks, lying, working the
street corners, and helping the motorcylce club members get their
wings.
>
>>> That's your own barrier you place on yourself there.
>>> You have luxury items like pets, 18$ can be had by selling plants,
>>> other things laying around if a fixed income is really the issue.

Send me some for free and I'll telly9u how good it is.hjows that.I am
just a cheap bitch
>>
>>I'll see of there's a market here for aquarium plants. The chains will not
>>even take them for free.
>
>Typical. Try selling to hobbyists.
She even has problems giving away free lays.......
>
>>> If I want something, I go get it.
Or HAve Randy go steal it.
>>
>>As do I. I got the other products I was told to purchase and they didn't
>>work, so why would I believe these other products will work?
I am a fuctard, don't ya know
>
>Asked an answered.
>
>>> But you certainly do not "need" an aquarium......nor do I...........
>>> You can check locally, but the shipping barrier is of your own creation
>>> and getting the ferts which are dirt cheap and last a long time will
>>> provide the means to grow the plants much better, you just do not think
>>> that is true is all and not worth your time/$.
>>
You have no business telling me what I can spend my street corner
money on.
>>See above. The other products that were recommended did almost nothing
>>after the initial "boost" to the plants. What makes you think these other
>>products will work?
>
>Asked and answered.
Would fish guts work............or scrapings from a pap smear?
>
>>> Try and get the ferts of a commericial brand cheaper, you cannot do
>>> it.They might cost less initially but after one round of dosing, there
>>> goes the cost and you have to pay tax, extra for a pretty label and you
>>> get 500X less ferts.
>>> That's fine, but it's not because they are $$ on shipping.
>>> 18$ can be had many ways if the cost is an issue.
>>> Ebay or Craig's list something.
>>
>>If I *KNEW* they would work I would order them. First I have no added CO2
>
>I don't use CO2 on purpose. I know it'll work I've seen the (spectacular)
>results and know I can get MUCH better plant grown (especially crypts) if
>I use it, but being a luddite at heart I want to see how good I can get
>without.
>
>>which will be the next thing someone suggests is needed when adding all
>>these GredWatson "foods" to the tanks.... right? How can the plants
>>utilize the extra food without added CO2? Apparently Excel does nothing but
>>slow the growth of algae - from what I have seen in my tanks.
>
>Not a good indicator given their chemical composition. Do you think the
>poeple that have near-universally reported that it does do a nasty number
>on alage are lying? As far as I can tell one other guy said it didn't
>work for him but everybody else noted the was death on algae.
>
>I've never tried excel without KNO3.
>
>>See above. Since the Seachem products did nothing for the new plants (why
>>were they even recommended?), and only a little for the old ones, I hesitate
>
>Carol - you bought the wrong chemical. Try the right ones that people
>have had wondefull success with.
God dam it, CArol knows best, carol did not error in any way.you did
fool!
>
>You've been asking for 4 months how to solve this problem and many
>people have told you how and you've done something different and
>it didn't work.
And she has so called fiddled with fish for 12 years and still does
not know a ****ing thing about them either. I thnk she really does not
have anay fish its just her vaginal smell makes folks think she has
fish, but actually she is saving yeast for baking bread for Randy the
Mushroom
>
>Try doing what people have found works. Try following the answers you've
>been asking for instead of making stuff up.

Carol is super at making things up now, at that she excells
>
>Barring that, try prayer.
Thats the problem, CArol does not belive in gods of any
kind..........God killed her daddy and mommy, ruined her numerous
marraiges and took her ovaries....can you blame her..hahahahahaha

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Koi-Lo

June 30th 06, 09:15 PM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> Look for "stump remover". Read the label (or google the brand name).
> KNOW (Potassium nitrate, saltpeter) used to be very very common and
> on every drugstore shelf as it has human and animnal medicinal uses
> but in a post 911 world this major component of gunpowder is now in
> the "you may sign for it" category. Any drug store CAN get it for you
> but it's stupid expensive.

I'll look for the stump-remover. I believe I saw that at one of the stores.

>>I looked for them locally. All I found was Muriate of Potash and those
>>mentioned above.
>
> Muriate of potash is Potassium chloride which is seldom used in
> terrestrial
> gardening and when it is, carefully, and is never used in aquatic
> gardening.
> It's essentially, salt.

And yet it works so well in my ponds and plant prop' tanks. I don't add
regular salt to my ponds.

> Salt is Sodium chloride and Potasium chloride is essentially the exact
> same thing with potassium replacing sodium. It's sometimes used as a salt
> substitute for people on low sodium diets.

Understood. :-)

> In an aquarium you'd be driving the potassium too high and the deleterious
> effects of that are pretty well understood and the chloride ions will
> do plants no good.

What would be the signs of too much potassium in an aquarium? After all I
can add too much stump-remover as well (PN).

>>It would be $30 for all the stuff on the Gregwatson page but I didn't see
>>any micronutrients there. I would then have to get someone to figure out
>>the
>>mixtures per tank according to gallonage and fish load etc. Since there
>>is
>>no guarantee these products will work any better than the expensive
>>Seachem
>>products, I hesitate to purchase them.
>
> I understand the mindset of "oh god I've added all these chamicals and had
> no or bad results why should I ad more". BDTD.

That's exactly how I feel - yes.

> But, ask people what has worked. You'll find a distinct lack of Potassium
> chloride and a common element in succesfull aquatic gardens is the use of
> potassium nitrate. This is about 10-15 years old now in constant and daily
> use and you'd be hard pressed to find it's use earlier than that.

OK,... but as I recall I was told there was too much nitrate and phosphorus
in my tanks last winter, and that was the cause of the RB algae. I was told
to do major water changes and really clean the gravel, which I did. Why do
this and then add more nitrate and phosphate from GregWatson? Can you see
what's so confusing here?

>>But what makes you believe these products will work better than the
>>Seachem
>>products?

> Experience. Lots of it. By many people over a large number of years. The
> seachem
> products work fine when properly used. Adding potassium chloride instead
> of
> potassium nitrate is probably going to screw everthing up though, although
> it's
> not a mistake I've heard of anybody making so far, so thanks for the data
> point.

PROBABLY? We can't know that since it works great in my outside tubs and
ponds. Are you saying the all the potassium in the Seachem products somehow
fought-it-out with the Muriate of Potash and the plants were all deprived of
this mineral? How can one suppress the other? I added very little MofP.

>>I'll see of there's a market here for aquarium plants. The chains will
>>not
>>even take them for free.
>
> Typical. Try selling to hobbyists.

What hobbyists? I live in a rural area far from any cities. I don't even
know any hobbyist here. The last one moved 5 years ago giving me her pond
and aquarium fish.

>>See above. The other products that were recommended did almost nothing
>>after the initial "boost" to the plants. What makes you think these other
>>products will work?
>
> Asked and answered.

So you're claiming I was supposed to add more NITRATE using PNitrate after
being told there was TOO MUCH nitrate and to do all those massive water
changes and gravel vacuuming to REMOVE the nitrate. That the sodium Potash
doesn't work in aquariums - although it works in outdoor tubs and
ponds........

>>> 18$ can be had many ways if the cost is an issue.
>>> Ebay or Craig's list something.
>>
>>If I *KNEW* they would work I would order them. First I have no added CO2

> I don't use CO2 on purpose. I know it'll work I've seen the (spectacular)
> results and know I can get MUCH better plant grown (especially crypts) if
> I use it, but being a luddite at heart I want to see how good I can get
> without.

So tell me EXACTLY what and how much you are adding or would add to 55g
tanks that contain 6 half grown goldfish, 2 tens with 2 small goldfish each
and a 10g with about 15 platys. All contain a few otos and the 55s contain
otos and 2 plecs each. If I don't do EXACTLY what you do and it fails I
don't want to hear I did something wrong, I added the wrong stuff, I added
the wrong amount, I didn't do any tests for too much of this or that, or
didn't do enough massive water changes to remove all the phos' and nitrate
etc, etc......... I'm not a chemist so how much would you add of each
product? How many gallons of water would you change per week? How much
gravel vacuuming do you do each week?

>>which will be the next thing someone suggests is needed when adding all
>>these GredWatson "foods" to the tanks.... right? How can the plants
>>utilize the extra food without added CO2? Apparently Excel does nothing
>>but
>>slow the growth of algae - from what I have seen in my tanks.

> Not a good indicator given their chemical composition. Do you think the
> poeple that have near-universally reported that it does do a nasty number
> on alage are lying? As far as I can tell one other guy said it didn't
> work for him but everybody else noted the was death on algae.

Why would I lie? Why would he lie? Did all those people it worked for have
our water conditions and fish load? How can we know that? I went and
bought 1g of the stuff plus all the other things recommended here. Add S&H
and it wasn't cheap. And I expected the algae to turn white.... and I
waited, and I waited and I waited and finally went and bought the plecos and
otos.

>>See above. Since the Seachem products did nothing for the new plants (why
>>were they even recommended?), and only a little for the old ones, I
>>hesitate
>
> Carol - you bought the wrong chemical. Try the right ones that people
> have had wondefull success with.

I bought what I was told to buy. Why was the Seachem chemicals recommended
then? The one does contain Potassium.

> You've been asking for 4 months how to solve this problem and many
> people have told you how and you've done something different and
> it didn't work.

I did what was recommend - see above. I bought what I was told to buy and I
bought them from Foster and Smith. No one said only GredWatson's products
worked - that the Seachem products shouldn't be used. I don't understand
this. Now I'm being told I should add a MORE nitrate (with the potash)
after being told NITRATE was part of the problem - that if I buy
GregWatsons's products including PONitrate the plants will flourish and the
RB algae will die........ where does all the Seachem "foods" come in then,
including the Excel?

> Try doing what people have found works. Try following the answers you've
> been asking for instead of making stuff up.

Making what stuff up? You mean I'm making up that I was told to do massive
water changes, that I was told to vacuum the gravel and stop feeding the
fish so much? That it was adding to the nitrate/phos load? I'm making
this all up about Excel supposedly turning RB algae white and making it fall
off the plants and glass? I made up that one of you told me that would
happen using Excel? What exactly am I making up here?

> Barring that, try prayer.

Prayer? What should I pray for? Insulting me is not going to make me buy
your friends products when the other products recommend here didn't work.
--
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Richard Sexton

July 1st 06, 06:12 PM

In article >,
Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>I'll look for the stump-remover. I believe I saw that at one of the stores.

Well there ya go then. The label should say what's in it, I *think* there's
one that doesn't have KNO3 but the rest do. You can goodle the brand
name as this has been discussed to death in ages past.

>> It's essentially, salt.
>
>And yet it works so well in my ponds and plant prop' tanks. I don't add
>regular salt to my ponds.

Well you would;nt need to :-)

It'll help build up potassium and if your pond is potassium deficient it'll
do some good I guess if the chloride ions don't build up too much.

The old Tetra fertilizer was just potassium, in tanks with a high fish load
this is sometimes all you need, but only in very rare cases. Still the
chloride ion buildup is an issue without water changes.

>What would be the signs of too much potassium in an aquarium? After all I
>can add too much stump-remover as well (PN).

I don't remember off hand, but people have had issues with it.

>> I understand the mindset of "oh god I've added all these chamicals and had
>> no or bad results why should I ad more". BDTD.
>
>That's exactly how I feel - yes.

Yeah, it's a funny feeling but it goes away when you see what good it does.

The same checmicals that gave me great trepidation a year ago I now dump in
as routine and I haven't see that awful black algae since and remember I battled
it for 7 years and tried bleach, peroxide, you name it. When I quit being
so damn stubborn and just did that Tom Barr said and threw away my nitrate
test kit things starting looking like showcase planted tanks around here.

>OK,... but as I recall I was told there was too much nitrate and phosphorus
>in my tanks last winter, and that was the cause of the RB algae. I was told
>to do major water changes and really clean the gravel, which I did. Why do
>this and then add more nitrate and phosphate from GregWatson? Can you see
>what's so confusing here?

High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does. Tom and
I have both tried way too high nitrate and phosphate and it does absolutely
not cause algae. In a tank with no nitrate added and a phosphate removing
product - algae grows very well.

>PROBABLY? We can't know that since it works great in my outside tubs and
>ponds. Are you saying the all the potassium in the Seachem products somehow
>fought-it-out with the Muriate of Potash and the plants were all deprived of
>this mineral? How can one suppress the other? I added very little MofP.

It's really pointless to speculate what happens when things go wrong with
the wrohg recipe, there's too many failure modes, and frankly who cares?

Do the right thing and things will be fine.

1) Remove all the alage you can mechcnically.
2) Change 85% of the water a day for two days
3) Fertilize properly.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Koi-Lo

July 2nd 06, 04:47 AM

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>>I'll look for the stump-remover. I believe I saw that at one of the
>>stores.
>
> Well there ya go then. The label should say what's in it, I *think*
> there's
> one that doesn't have KNO3 but the rest do. You can goodle the brand
> name as this has been discussed to death in ages past.

I can check at Lowe's and Home Depot as I have access to both stores plus
ACE Hardware.

>>> It's essentially, salt.
>>
>>And yet it works so well in my ponds and plant prop' tanks. I don't add
>>regular salt to my ponds.
>
> Well you would;nt need to :-)
>
> It'll help build up potassium and if your pond is potassium deficient
> it'll
> do some good I guess if the chloride ions don't build up too much.

Evidently chloride ions don't build up because the outdoor plants thrive.
The only plants I've had to die outside were the borderline hardies in
winter. I'm hoping my new greenhouse will keep them alive from now on. :-)
Someone offered us a free gas greenhouse heater for this winter. BTW, I add
it to the outdoor tanks the fish are in, and so far no problems. I don't
add the garden fertilizer to tanks with fish, just the Muriate of Potash.

> The old Tetra fertilizer was just potassium, in tanks with a high fish
> load
> this is sometimes all you need, but only in very rare cases. Still the
> chloride ion buildup is an issue without water changes.

Water changes would have taken care of any buildups I believe.

>>What would be the signs of too much potassium in an aquarium? After all I
>>can add too much stump-remover as well (PN).
>
> I don't remember off hand, but people have had issues with it.

Since I don't know either I add it in small amounts since the Seachem
contains it.

>>> I understand the mindset of "oh god I've added all these chamicals and
>>> had
>>> no or bad results why should I ad more". BDTD.
>>
>>That's exactly how I feel - yes.
>
> Yeah, it's a funny feeling but it goes away when you see what good it
> does.

Well, if I decide to replace all the plants that faded away I will
definitely try to find someone who can advise me on the correct amounts to
add to my tanks. This time I'll make sure I get plants that can tolerate my
hard alkaline water. No amount of fertilizer is going to make them live and
flourish in the "wrong" water.

> The same checmicals that gave me great trepidation a year ago I now dump
> in
> as routine and I haven't see that awful black algae since and remember I
> battled
> it for 7 years and tried bleach, peroxide, you name it. When I quit being
> so damn stubborn and just did that Tom Barr said and threw away my nitrate
> test kit things starting looking like showcase planted tanks around here.

I believe you also said you only have a few small fish in your tanks. Mine
are at capacity and goldfish produce a lot of waste.

>>OK,... but as I recall I was told there was too much nitrate and
>>phosphorus
>>in my tanks last winter, and that was the cause of the RB algae. I was
>>told
>>to do major water changes and really clean the gravel, which I did. Why
>>do
>>this and then add more nitrate and phosphate from GregWatson? Can you see
>>what's so confusing here?

> High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does.

If there was high ammonia in the tanks the fish would have suffered
(especially the platy fry) and it would have shown on my test kits. Ammonia
always reads zero once the tanks cycle. And that's even after a filter
cleaning along with a gravel vac, major water change and Vortex polishing.

Tom and
> I have both tried way too high nitrate and phosphate and it does
> absolutely
> not cause algae.

So then what did? What was the ammonia reading at the time? If there was
ammonia, how did you keep the fish alive?

In a tank with no nitrate added and a phosphate removing
> product - algae grows very well.

So nitrate alone (with phos removed) caused the algae? High nitrate and
Phos together does not cause algae - only Nitrate alone - what about the
ammonia? Did the POTASH cause the algae then? Where does the ammonia come
in and what was the ammonia readings on your test kit when the algae
appeared? Mine always reads zero ammonia and around 20ppm Nitrate. I have
no idea about phos levels since I don't have a kit.

>>PROBABLY? We can't know that since it works great in my outside tubs and
>>ponds. Are you saying the all the potassium in the Seachem products
>>somehow
>>fought-it-out with the Muriate of Potash and the plants were all deprived
>>of
>>this mineral? How can one suppress the other? I added very little MofP.

> It's really pointless to speculate what happens when things go wrong with
> the wrohg recipe, there's too many failure modes, and frankly who cares?
>
> Do the right thing and things will be fine.

And the right thing is to buy all GregWatson's products and just start using
them willy-nilly and the plants will thrive and the algae will go away?!?!?!
Hummm... that's pretty much what I was told the Excel and Flourish products
would do. :-) Since I'm not a chemist nor can I afford the accurate test
kits on the market I have little chance to guess the correct amounts to add
to my aquariums.

> 1) Remove all the alage you can mechcnically.

Yes, I've done that several times with the help of the plecos.

> 2) Change 85% of the water a day for two days

I already went that route then used the recommended products - Excel, the
mirconutrients, the iron......

> 3) Fertilize properly.

I am fertilizing properly according the the Seachem products I bought from
Foster & Smith.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Richard Sexton

July 2nd 06, 05:26 AM

In article >,
Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>
>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>Evidently chloride ions don't build up because the outdoor plants thrive.

And if you cut a frogs legs off and tell it to jump and it doesn't it's
obviously deaf.

>Water changes would have taken care of any buildups I believe.

No. Do the math.

>Well, if I decide to replace all the plants that faded away I will
>definitely try to find someone who can advise me on the correct amounts to
>add to my tanks. This time I'll make sure I get plants that can tolerate my
>hard alkaline water. No amount of fertilizer is going to make them live and
>flourish in the "wrong" water.

Incorrect. Plants do better in hard water. And Tom's estimative index whose
link has been posted here many times gives you the correct amounts.

>I believe you also said you only have a few small fish in your tanks. Mine
>are at capacity and goldfish produce a lot of waste.

Hence the ammonia hence the algae. No surprise here.

>> High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does.
>
>If there was high ammonia in the tanks the fish would have suffered

Not true. They are remarkably tolerant. Try Amano shrimp, THEY'RE
completely intolerant of ammonia, that is, by the time it registers on
a kit, they're dead already.

>(especially the platy fry) and it would have shown on my test kits. Ammonia
>always reads zero once the tanks cycle. And that's even after a filter
>cleaning along with a gravel vac, major water change and Vortex polishing.
>
>Tom and
>> I have both tried way too high nitrate and phosphate and it does
>> absolutely
>> not cause algae.
>
>So then what did? What was the ammonia reading at the time? If there was
>ammonia, how did you keep the fish alive?

Beats me, I don't test regualrly for ammonia. I've only tested once when I
fuond a flock of curled up shrimp causes by an ammonia spike when a lot
of new emersed crypts were added. Dead leaves cause a LOT of ammonia even
in a big tank.

>In a tank with no nitrate added and a phosphate removing
>> product - algae grows very well.
>
>So nitrate alone (with phos removed) caused the algae? High nitrate and
>Phos together does not cause algae - only Nitrate alone - what about the
>ammonia? Did the POTASH cause the algae then? Where does the ammonia come
>in and what was the ammonia readings on your test kit when the algae
>appeared? Mine always reads zero ammonia and around 20ppm Nitrate. I have
>no idea about phos levels since I don't have a kit.

No, higt nitrate and high phosphate do NOT cause alage, they prevent it.

>>>PROBABLY? We can't know that since it works great in my outside tubs and
>>>ponds. Are you saying the all the potassium in the Seachem products
>>>somehow
>>>fought-it-out with the Muriate of Potash and the plants were all deprived
>>>of
>>>this mineral? How can one suppress the other? I added very little MofP.
>
>> It's really pointless to speculate what happens when things go wrong with
>> the wrohg recipe, there's too many failure modes, and frankly who cares?
>>
>> Do the right thing and things will be fine.
>
>And the right thing is to buy all GregWatson's products and just start using
>them willy-nilly and the plants will thrive and the algae will go away?!?!?!

No, use them according to the formulas every body else has and does and
has success with that's been posted here hundreds of times the latest being
the day before yesterday.

>Hummm... that's pretty much what I was told the Excel and Flourish products
>would do. :-) Since I'm not a chemist nor can I afford the accurate test
>kits on the market I have little chance to guess the correct amounts to add
>to my aquariums.

You don't need any test kits.

>> 1) Remove all the alage you can mechcnically.
>
>Yes, I've done that several times with the help of the plecos.

Keep doing it.
>
>> 2) Change 85% of the water a day for two days
>
>I already went that route then used the recommended products - Excel, the
>mirconutrients, the iron......

You need to do it again, stop addking KCL and ass KNO3.

>> 3) Fertilize properly.
>
>I am fertilizing properly according the the Seachem products I bought from
>Foster & Smith.

You are not adding nitrate. You need to.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Koi-Lo

July 2nd 06, 04:49 PM

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>>
>>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>>> In article >,
>>> Koi-Lo <My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy.> wrote:
>>Evidently chloride ions don't build up because the outdoor plants thrive.
>
> And if you cut a frogs legs off and tell it to jump and it doesn't it's
> obviously deaf.

Well I guess they're salt-water pond plants then, as they're thriving as
seen on my website. ;-)

>>Water changes would have taken care of any buildups I believe.
>
> No. Do the math.

What math? You already said fertilizers don't build up with massive 85%
water changes. You add Greg's products then do weekly water changes which
prevent build-ups. That's changed now to water changes don't prevent
build-ups? That even when removed the fertilizers build up?

>>Well, if I decide to replace all the plants that faded away I will
>>definitely try to find someone who can advise me on the correct amounts to
>>add to my tanks. This time I'll make sure I get plants that can tolerate
>>my
>>hard alkaline water. No amount of fertilizer is going to make them live
>>and
>>flourish in the "wrong" water.

> Incorrect. Plants do better in hard water. And Tom's estimative index
> whose
> link has been posted here many times gives you the correct amounts.

I saw no estimate index for 55g tanks and 10gs with different fish loads and
different Hardness and PHs. Odd that soft water, acid water plants do
better in hard alkaline water for you.

>>I believe you also said you only have a few small fish in your tanks.
>>Mine
>>are at capacity and goldfish produce a lot of waste.
>
> Hence the ammonia hence the algae. No surprise here.

What ammonia? These are cycled tanks. Are you claiming all test kids are
wrong?

>>> High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does.
>>
>>If there was high ammonia in the tanks the fish would have suffered

> Not true. They are remarkably tolerant. Try Amano shrimp, THEY'RE
> completely intolerant of ammonia, that is, by the time it registers on
> a kit, they're dead already.

No thanks. All I can get here are unattractive feeder shrimp.

>>In a tank with no nitrate added and a phosphate removing
>>> product - algae grows very well.

>>So nitrate alone (with phos removed) caused the algae? High nitrate and
>>Phos together does not cause algae - only Nitrate alone - what about the
>>ammonia? Did the POTASH cause the algae then? Where does the ammonia
>>come
>>in and what was the ammonia readings on your test kit when the algae
>>appeared? Mine always reads zero ammonia and around 20ppm Nitrate. I
>>have
>>no idea about phos levels since I don't have a kit.

> No, higt nitrate and high phosphate do NOT cause alage, they prevent it.

I see. Then the biologists that had Phos' removed from detergents were all
wrong about Phos. It was really ammonia in these products that turned
lakes and rivers green with algae? Odd how when the phos was removed the
algae went with it.

>>> Do the right thing and things will be fine.

>>And the right thing is to buy all GregWatson's products and just start
>>using
>>them willy-nilly and the plants will thrive and the algae will go
>>away?!?!?!

> No, use them according to the formulas every body else has and does and
> has success with that's been posted here hundreds of times the latest
> being
> the day before yesterday.

I see no post with "formulas" for 55g and 10g tanks at capacity...... it's
not on my news-server. Nothing about how much to add depending on lightly
planted and heavily planted tanks or tanks with light or heavy fish loads.

>>Hummm... that's pretty much what I was told the Excel and Flourish
>>products
>>would do. :-) Since I'm not a chemist nor can I afford the accurate test
>>kits on the market I have little chance to guess the correct amounts to
>>add
>>to my aquariums.

> You don't need any test kits.

Why, since you said above that massive water changes don't really remove
"build-ups" of excess fertilizers. How then do you remove any excess if
water changes don't remove them? How you know there even is an excess?

>>> 1) Remove all the alage you can mechcnically.
>>
>>Yes, I've done that several times with the help of the plecos.
>
> Keep doing it.

>>
>>> 2) Change 85% of the water a day for two days
>>
>>I already went that route then used the recommended products - Excel, the
>>mirconutrients, the iron......
>
> You need to do it again, stop addking KCL and ass KNO3.

What do you mean do it again? I never stopped doing it. So you'e claiming
it all that ammonia that the test kits can't see nor can I stop unless I
remove the fish from the tanks causing the algae? Just the opposite of what
scientists found to cause it in lakes and rivers. And ammonia still reads
zero. Geeze and I just started adding it (extra MofPo about 2 weeks ago).
The Seachem products and endless water changes had 5 months to work before
that and didn't do much more than turn some plants greener.

>>> 3) Fertilize properly.
>>
>>I am fertilizing properly according the the Seachem products I bought from
>>Foster & Smith.
>
> You are not adding nitrate. You need to.

How much nitrate per 55g tank of goldfish. A 10g tank of platys and 10g
tanks with 2 GF each. There is no message with the correct formula on my
news-server giving amounts depending on fish and plant load, etc. Also
since you said above that water changes don't remove excess fertilizers it
could be dangerous to the fish to overload the tanks.
--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[email protected]

July 4th 06, 07:10 AM

Koi-Lo wrote:
> *Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

> >>Evidently chloride ions don't build up because the outdoor plants thrive.

This is an assumption, plants assimilate and take up Chloride, if you
remove any leaves etc, this exports Chloride out of the system as well
as any water changes, Seepage into the pond hydrosoil etc, dilution
from rain etc also influence this.

> Well I guess they're salt-water pond plants then, as they're thriving as
> seen on my website. ;-)

I do not do any water changes on my dad's pond, I add 35-40% surface
coverage Hyacinth and the water is forever gin clear, this weed grows
and is scooped out to maintain roughly 30-50% coverage throughout the
growing season.
The plants export the salts, the nutrients etc.
Happy fish, happy plants.

If I did not remove the plants, they would over grow and choke the pond
and stop O2 exchange and kill the fish.

> >>Water changes would have taken care of any buildups I believe.
> > No. Do the math.
> What math?

It's an infinite series. Look it up.
The APD also did some backgound on why the ppms never buld up if you do
water changes.

Basically if you do weekly 50% water changes and dose nutrients, say
NO3, if you dose 20ppm per week, the max build up possible will be
40ppm, that assumes no uptake by plants and no denitrification from
bacteria.

You already said fertilizers don't build up with massive 85%
> water changes.

Nor 1/3 or 50% weekly changes, you have a wider range with less % of
the total tank volume obviously, but 2x the total is a decent working %
to use.

You add Greg's products then do weekly water changes which
> prevent build-ups. That's changed now to water changes don't prevent
> build-ups? That even when removed the fertilizers build up?

Ahhh, not sure what you are saying here.
Semantics perhaps.......

Richard sez:
> > Incorrect. Plants do better in hard water. And Tom's estimative index
> > whose
> > link has been posted here many times gives you the correct amounts.
>
> I saw no estimate index for 55g tanks and 10gs with different fish loads and
> different Hardness and PHs. Odd that soft water, acid water plants do
> better in hard alkaline water for you.

This is no surprise at all since most submersed plants are carbon
limited and hard water has more total carbon available to provide the
plants with.
So soft water has little HCO3, which the plants can use if the CO2 is
low and is normally the case.

If you add CO2 to hard water, the plants will use that first though.

Bowes and Van (UF) did a nice study that showed 3 submersed plants grew
at a faster rate at harder KH's and higher pH's.
Their conclusions was what I mentioned.

> >>I believe you also said you only have a few small fish in your tanks.
> >>Mine
> >>are at capacity and goldfish produce a lot of waste.
> >
> > Hence the ammonia hence the algae. No surprise here.
>
> What ammonia? These are cycled tanks. Are you claiming all test kids are
> wrong?

Perhaps, but overloaded tanks clearly have lots of algae. You can add
everything else that fish waste produces, NO3, K, PO4, traces etc and
never induce algae.

The only thing missing is the urea(which is quickly converted to NH4 in
water) and NH4.
These big old turds the fish produce might not measure anything in the
water column, but down on the gravel sitting there, it is a nice rich
place and also where the algae spores are waiting for some nice rich
NH4 to get started to grow well.

So the NH4 is used up before the test kit can measure it often times,
and after the fact as you see the aftermath of the algae bloom and are
not monitoring it prior to the bloom.........by then the algae has
goobled up most of the NH4 and the bacterial colony has increased in
size.

This is why you cannot use fish waste alone to run a much faster
growing tank using CO2 and good lighting etc, the tank has too much
NH4, not so much that harms fish, rather, enough to induce the algae
spores.

Once they are germinated, much like a weed, they will hang on and use
NO3 and other nutrients.

> >>> High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does.
> >>If there was high ammonia in the tanks the fish would have suffered

Well, inducing algae spores and fish health NH4 levels are quite
different.
Do not confuse the two.

Fish will die depending on their life stages and species over a wider
range, algae need little NH4 present to start germinating to produce a
bloom.

> > Not true. They are remarkably tolerant. Try Amano shrimp, THEY'RE
> > completely intolerant of ammonia, that is, by the time it registers on
> > a kit, they're dead already.
>
> No thanks. All I can get here are unattractive feeder shrimp.

You do not need them to grow algae free tanks full of weeds.

> >>So nitrate alone (with phos removed) caused the algae?

No, the NH4 did.
Low PO4 will stop the plant growth, it will not stop the algae growth
which will not be limited until you get down to the parts per billion
ranges of 20ppb or 10ppm or so, and that range is subjected to a error
of 10ppb............

You do not own a test kit nor use a methid that can do this, no water
quality lab is even capable of this as a rule, a few places at research
centers can measure this low and they still have errors of 3-8ppb.

So you cannot limit algae via PO4 even if you wanted to when you have
aquatic plants present.

The plants temselves are huge sources of PO4 and store lots in tissues,
which if they are stunted and not growing, are decomposing, leeching
and rotting, giving off small amounts of NH4/PO4.

High nitrate and
> >>Phos together does not cause algae - only Nitrate alone - what about the
> >>ammonia? Did the POTASH cause the algae then? Where does the ammonia
> >>come
> >>in and what was the ammonia readings on your test kit when the algae
> >>appeared? Mine always reads zero ammonia and around 20ppm Nitrate. I
> >>have
> >>no idea about phos levels since I don't have a kit.

See above.

> > No, higt nitrate and high phosphate do NOT cause alage, they prevent it.

> I see. Then the biologists that had Phos' removed from detergents were all
> wrong about Phos.

No, you are comparing apples and oranges.
What are we talking about here?
Shallow fully planted lakes?
You add PO4 to an other wise PO4 limited lake like that and you will
not get algae, you will get more weeds!

That's why aquatic weeds are such a serious issue!!!
They spend billions on dealing with them due to this very reason.

Search Bachmann,Canfield Hoyer and trophic status of Florida lakes
(1984 to 2005 or so, there are several papers), which....are BTW,
shallow, fully planted, subtropical(fairly warm and most of the year).

Adding PO4 also changes the native plants, such as the Jamacian grass,
Cladium to Typha(cattail) in the Everglades, no algae issues(less algae
actually) due to the increase in PO4 levels.

This is the center of the Evergalde restoration project which is a
Billions of $$$ project.
How do you remove millions of tones of PO4 and be cost effective with
the techonolgy you have? Not an easy question nor answer.

I am a Biologist BTW and I deal specifically with aquatic weeds in my
research and algae is also something I have a good understanding and
passion for.

It was really ammonia in these products that turned
> lakes and rivers green with algae? Odd how when the phos was removed the
> algae went with it.

Did these rivers, streams and lakes have plants?
Did they have 30-50% coverage or greater?
Did they freeze each winter?
You'll note the never said much about that:-)

If you leave that part out, you set yourself up for some very poor
assumptions.........

The more basic method is to simply try adding PO to fully planted tank
with high levels of of the other nutrients nd see what ahppens under
limited levels of PO4 and then add say 2ppm PO4.

There is no algae induced.

I do not care if you believe me or do the research, simply try it and
see for yourself, then you'll know.

I think they should ban PO4 but they should also ban NO3 and fertilizer
run off from farms as well, that's killing the rivers, they can utilize
created wetlands along the MS river and reduce the load way down.

> >>And the right thing is to buy all GregWatson's products and just start
> >>using
> >>them willy-nilly and the plants will thrive and the algae will go
> >>away?!?!?!

Well, some users have trouble, but few.
Most are amazed.

Do you add fertilizers to the gardern(organic or otherwise) or if you
owned a farm?
If you want the plants to grow for more than a season or two you will.

> I see no post with "formulas" for 55g and 10g tanks at capacity...... it's
> not on my news-server. Nothing about how much to add depending on lightly
> planted and heavily planted tanks or tanks with light or heavy fish loads.

Assume fully planted, the more plants, the less chance you will have
algae.
Less light, at leats down to a point, is better also.
This means slower more mangable growth, less CO2 demand, less NO3, K+
etc is needed.

Are you adding CO2 or not?
I can give you precise amounts if you say how planted the tanks are and
if you use CO2 or not.

> > You don't need any test kits.
>
> Why, since you said above that massive water changes don't really remove
> "build-ups" of excess fertilizers. How then do you remove any excess if
> water changes don't remove them? How you know there even is an excess?

The water changes will prevent and build up. I think Richard and you
mixed that one up, I know Richard meant to say that large water changes
prevents a build up.

I do not know how much K+, NO3, PO4 etc will cause algae.
Fish die first at 120ppm + of KNO3, about 50% of the Amano shrimps died
after 3 full days of that. Fish where still fine though(Wild SA fish).

> >>I already went that route then used the recommended products - Excel, the
> >>mirconutrients, the iron......
> >
> > You need to do it again, stop addking KCL and ass KNO3.
>
> What do you mean do it again? I never stopped doing it.

Add KNO3 instead of KCL.

So you'e claiming
> it all that ammonia that the test kits can't see nor can I stop unless I
> remove the fish from the tanks causing the algae?

Well, let me ask you something .................would you enjoy being
packed into a bathroom with 10 folks and not flushing the toilet for a
week?
Why overload a fish tank?

Be reasonable about your stocking levels, big dirty cichlids, flithy
dirt producing goldfish etc, they are not the same as a few
tetras.............

Reduced feedings, reduce stocking levels, happier place for fish and
happier place for the plants.

Larger tank etc.
You can add lots of filter etc, do lots of water changes like Discus
folks do........
Goldfish are tough animals........but does not mean you should abuse
them.

Give them a happy home.
The base of the ecosystem is the plants, not the fish.

Just the opposite of what
> scientists found to cause it in lakes and rivers. And ammonia still reads
> zero. Geeze and I just started adding it (extra MofPo about 2 weeks ago).
> The Seachem products and endless water changes had 5 months to work before
> that and didn't do much more than turn some plants greener.

I'm a scientist and the lakes and river issue would be great if weeds
did not grow.......but they do and they grow extremely fast when
provided with rich nutrients..........but if you have no weeds there,
turbid water where no light can get to, frozen lakes, very low % of the
lake infested with the weeds, then algae will take up the slack.

Well, those are pretty weak ferts also.
You need more and CO2/Excel.

> > You are not adding nitrate. You need to.
>
> How much nitrate per 55g tank of goldfish. A 10g tank of platys and 10g
> tanks with 2 GF each. There is no message with the correct formula on my
> news-server giving amounts depending on fish and plant load, etc. Also
> since you said above that water changes don't remove excess fertilizers it
> could be dangerous to the fish to overload the tanks.

I think there is some misnderstanding there.

Say if you use CO2 or Excel or not and I'll go from there.

Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com

> --
> KL....
> Aquariums since 1952.
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://tinyurl.com/9do58
> *Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
> ~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Koi-Lo

July 5th 06, 08:53 PM

> wrote in message
ups.com...

Koi-Lo wrote:
> *Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

> >>Evidently chloride ions don't build up because the outdoor plants
> >>thrive.

This is an assumption, plants assimilate and take up Chloride, if you
remove any leaves etc, this exports Chloride out of the system as well
as any water changes, Seepage into the pond hydrosoil etc, dilution
from rain etc also influence this.

Whatever they're doing with it, they're thriving. These are lined ponds so
there is no soil bottom to seep into. Rain would act like an indoor water
change. Even with a heavy rain-fall there is seldom runoff because of
evaporation. My ponds and outdoor tanks are seldom full to the top.

> Well I guess they're salt-water pond plants then, as they're thriving as
> seen on my website. ;-)

I do not do any water changes on my dad's pond, I add 35-40% surface
coverage Hyacinth and the water is forever gin clear, this weed grows
and is scooped out to maintain roughly 30-50% coverage throughout the
growing season.
The plants export the salts, the nutrients etc.
Happy fish, happy plants.

* Because of the koi and goldfish eating the roots, water hyacinth will not
live in my ponds.

If I did not remove the plants, they would over grow and choke the pond
and stop O2 exchange and kill the fish.

> >>Water changes would have taken care of any buildups I believe.
> > No. Do the math.
> What math?

It's an infinite series. Look it up.

* I don't know what an infinite series is to look it up.

The APD also did some backgound on why the ppms never buld up if you do
water changes.

* Please read what your friend said in his message above.

Basically if you do weekly 50% water changes and dose nutrients, say
NO3, if you dose 20ppm per week, the max build up possible will be
40ppm, that assumes no uptake by plants and no denitrification from
bacteria.

You already said fertilizers don't build up with massive 85%
> water changes.

Nor 1/3 or 50% weekly changes, you have a wider range with less % of
the total tank volume obviously, but 2x the total is a decent working %
to use.

You add Greg's products then do weekly water changes which
> prevent build-ups. That's changed now to water changes don't prevent
> build-ups? That even when removed the fertilizers build up?

Ahhh, not sure what you are saying here.
Semantics perhaps.......

* Not semantics.... That's what he claimed and why I can't understand what
he posts.

Richard sez:
> > Incorrect. Plants do better in hard water. And Tom's estimative index
> > whose
> > link has been posted here many times gives you the correct amounts.

> I saw no estimate index for 55g tanks and 10gs with different fish loads
> and
> different Hardness and PHs. Odd that soft water, acid water plants do
> better in hard alkaline water for you.

This is no surprise at all since most submersed plants are carbon
limited and hard water has more total carbon available to provide the
plants with.
So soft water has little HCO3, which the plants can use if the CO2 is
low and is normally the case.

If you add CO2 to hard water, the plants will use that first though.

* Ok, when I find or meet someone here who has sof****er acid loving plants
thriving in our hard alkaline water I would consider buying some. I never
even met another aquarist who added CO2 to their tanks to keep plants alive.

Bowes and Van (UF) did a nice study that showed 3 submersed plants grew
at a faster rate at harder KH's and higher pH's.
Their conclusions was what I mentioned.

> >>I believe you also said you only have a few small fish in your tanks.
> >>Mine
> >>are at capacity and goldfish produce a lot of waste.
> >
> > Hence the ammonia hence the algae. No surprise here.
>
> What ammonia? These are cycled tanks. Are you claiming all test kids are
> wrong?

Perhaps, but overloaded tanks clearly have lots of algae. You can add
everything else that fish waste produces, NO3, K, PO4, traces etc and
never induce algae.

* So what you mean is if you add even MORE plant food (fertilizers) the
algae someone overeats and dies? Or the excess poisons it? Or do you have
to purchase a load more plants to soak it up... all guessing since you
already said test kids were unnecessary.

The only thing missing is the urea(which is quickly converted to NH4 in
water) and NH4.
These big old turds the fish produce might not measure anything in the
water column, but down on the gravel sitting there, it is a nice rich
place and also where the algae spores are waiting for some nice rich
NH4 to get started to grow well.

* And where the plant roots are also waiting for some nice rich manure to
fall.......

So the NH4 is used up before the test kit can measure it often times,
and after the fact as you see the aftermath of the algae bloom and are
not monitoring it prior to the bloom.........by then the algae has
goobled up most of the NH4 and the bacterial colony has increased in
size.
This is why you cannot use fish waste alone to run a much faster
growing tank using CO2 and good lighting etc, the tank has too much
NH4, not so much that harms fish, rather, enough to induce the algae
spores.

* But I wasn't using CO2 when the algae invaded these tanks.

Once they are germinated, much like a weed, they will hang on and use
NO3 and other nutrients.

* Then why was I told to buy Excel and all those other products when they
didn't, wouldn't and couldn't turn algae white and make it fall off?

> >>> High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does.
> >>If there was high ammonia in the tanks the fish would have suffered

Well, inducing algae spores and fish health NH4 levels are quite
different.
Do not confuse the two.
Fish will die depending on their life stages and species over a wider
range, algae need little NH4 present to start germinating to produce a
bloom.

* Then that means all fish must be removed except a few tiny ones, to
prevent ammonia to feed the algae.

> > Not true. They are remarkably tolerant. Try Amano shrimp, THEY'RE
> > completely intolerant of ammonia, that is, by the time it registers on
> > a kit, they're dead already.
>
> No thanks. All I can get here are unattractive feeder shrimp.

You do not need them to grow algae free tanks full of weeds.

* Then someone has to tell me how much, how often, what mixture, how many
tiny fish per 55g tank etc. to get rid of the algae and stop pushing the
baloney that Excel turns it white and makes it fall off everything.
There's quite a difference in the storys I'm getting on how to get rid of
algae. I'm not a chemist or mathematician so have no idea how how you
figure out how much ammonia comes from one GF weighing so many grams so
therefore I need to add so much Phos and Potash.......

>So nitrate alone (with phos removed) caused the algae?

No, the NH4 did.
Low PO4 will stop the plant growth, it will not stop the algae growth
which will not be limited until you get down to the parts per billion
ranges of 20ppb or 10ppm or so, and that range is subjected to a error
of 10ppb............

* So to get rid of the ammonia and have algae free plants one must get rid
of their ammonia producing fish.

You do not own a test kit nor use a methid that can do this, no water
quality lab is even capable of this as a rule, a few places at research
centers can measure this low and they still have errors of 3-8ppb.
So you cannot limit algae via PO4 even if you wanted to when you have
aquatic plants present.
The plants temselves are huge sources of PO4 and store lots in tissues,
which if they are stunted and not growing, are decomposing, leeching
and rotting, giving off small amounts of NH4/PO4.

* I see.

> > No, higt nitrate and high phosphate do NOT cause alage, they prevent it.

This is the center of the Evergalde restoration project which is a
Billions of $$$ project.
How do you remove millions of tones of PO4 and be cost effective with
the techonolgy you have? Not an easy question nor answer.

I am a Biologist BTW and I deal specifically with aquatic weeds in my
research and algae is also something I have a good understanding and
passion for.

* Ok so it comes down to finding a
mathematician/scientist/biologist/horticulturist to figure out what I need
to add to my tanks in the way of "foods" to starve out the algae - taking
into consideration how many fish I have, my lighting, water PH and hardness,
the plants already present and whatever else they would need to know to come
up with the correct or near correct amounts. To puchase even more products
and use them willy-nilly-guess-as-you-go is crazy. I have all these Seachem
products that did nothing but turn the plants a deeper green that were
already thriving, while all the new plants faded away.....

It was really ammonia in these products that turned
> lakes and rivers green with algae? Odd how when the phos was removed the
> algae went with it.

Did these rivers, streams and lakes have plants?
Did they have 30-50% coverage or greater?
Did they freeze each winter?
You'll note the never said much about that:-)

* I have no idea but most lakes and rivers I have seen have quite a few
marginal plants. I know of no floaters here in the northern states.

If you leave that part out, you set yourself up for some very poor
assumptions.........
The more basic method is to simply try adding PO to fully planted tank
with high levels of of the other nutrients nd see what ahppens under
limited levels of PO4 and then add say 2ppm PO4.

* Google says PO is Polonium . Do you mean Potash?

There is no algae induced.
I do not care if you believe me or do the research, simply try it and
see for yourself, then you'll know.

* So I should buy nitrate and phos and potash and add high amounts - just
guessing since I have no way to figure out how much to use.

I think they should ban PO4 but they should also ban NO3 and fertilizer
run off from farms as well, that's killing the rivers, they can utilize
created wetlands along the MS river and reduce the load way down.

* Without fertilizers the crops would be a waste.

> >>And the right thing is to buy all GregWatson's products and just start
> >>using
> >>them willy-nilly and the plants will thrive and the algae will go
> >>away?!?!?!

Well, some users have trouble, but few.
Most are amazed.

* How do they know how much to use per tank or do they not keep fish?

Do you add fertilizers to the gardern(organic or otherwise) or if you
owned a farm?
If you want the plants to grow for more than a season or two you will.

* I use regular garden fertalizers accourding to bag.

> I see no post with "formulas" for 55g and 10g tanks at capacity......
> it's
> not on my news-server. Nothing about how much to add depending on lightly
> planted and heavily planted tanks or tanks with light or heavy fish loads.

Assume fully planted, the more plants, the less chance you will have
algae.
Less light, at leats down to a point, is better also.
This means slower more mangable growth, less CO2 demand, less NO3, K+
etc is needed.

* I use four 40w fluorescencents on the 55s because I don't like the looks
of the toilet-bowl brown diatoms.

Are you adding CO2 or not?
I can give you precise amounts if you say how planted the tanks are and
if you use CO2 or not.

* No. I only use Excel. When it's gone I'm not buying more since it failed
to turn the algae white as promised and does nothing for the plants that I
can see.

> > You don't need any test kits.
>
> Why, since you said above that massive water changes don't really remove
> "build-ups" of excess fertilizers. How then do you remove any excess if
> water changes don't remove them? How you know there even is an excess?

The water changes will prevent and build up. I think Richard and you
mixed that one up, I know Richard meant to say that large water changes
prevents a build up.

* Some of his messages totally confuse and frustrate me.

I do not know how much K+, NO3, PO4 etc will cause algae.
Fish die first at 120ppm + of KNO3, about 50% of the Amano shrimps died
after 3 full days of that. Fish where still fine though(Wild SA fish).

* I plan to pick some up at Lowe's or HD as soon as I go into town.

> >>I already went that route then used the recommended products - Excel,
> >>the
> >>mirconutrients, the iron......
> >
> > You need to do it again, stop addking KCL and ass KNO3.
>
> What do you mean do it again? I never stopped doing it.

Add KNO3 instead of KCL.

* I don't have any - anyway all the new plants are about gone. The old
standards are still plugging away as they've done for years now. ;-) I'll
try and find it locally since S&H ($12 to $18) are more than the product
from Greg.

So you'e claiming
> it all that ammonia that the test kits can't see nor can I stop unless I
> remove the fish from the tanks causing the algae?

Well, let me ask you something .................would you enjoy being
packed into a bathroom with 10 folks and not flushing the toilet for a
week? Why overload a fish tank?

* They're not overloaded. They're at the recommended number - 5 goldfish
for a 55g tank. We call that the maximum.

Be reasonable about your stocking levels, big dirty cichlids, flithy
dirt producing goldfish etc, they are not the same as a few
tetras.............
Reduced feedings, reduce stocking levels, happier place for fish and
happier place for the plants.
Larger tank etc.
You can add lots of filter etc, do lots of water changes like Discus
folks do........
Goldfish are tough animals........but does not mean you should abuse
them.

* Exactly! 5 GF are the recommended number for a 55g tank. As they get
even larger I will remove one or two more per tank.

Give them a happy home.
The base of the ecosystem is the plants, not the fish.

Well, those are pretty weak ferts also.
You need more and CO2/Excel.

* Yes I know. That's why I bought the micronutrients and iron.

> > You are not adding nitrate. You need to.
>
> How much nitrate per 55g tank of goldfish. A 10g tank of platys and 10g
> tanks with 2 GF each. There is no message with the correct formula on my
> news-server giving amounts depending on fish and plant load, etc. Also
> since you said above that water changes don't remove excess fertilizers it
> could be dangerous to the fish to overload the tanks.

I think there is some misnderstanding there.

Say if you use CO2 or Excel or not and I'll go from there.

* I'm using Excel at the recommended dose, the iron and the micros.......
Thanks

Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com

--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
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