Ammonia Hell, HELP!!!

[Shorty]

Hi!

I had a 55 gallon tank set up at the beginning of this year... I got a
whole bunch of plants and some fish. Everything seemed to go smooth
with the usual algea that disappeared after a while when I started
adding CO2 and fertilizing with K and Micronutrients.

At the beginning of june I noticed that I had a high amount of nitrates
(20ppm) so I decided to change the water. The ammonia was about 1 at
that time. I changed about half of the water. The nitrate went down by
about a half but at the end of next day ammonia climbed to 2. So, in a
hurry, I did another water change... and guess what... nitrate down by
50%. to 5ppm...ammonia up to 4!!!! To keep the water ph from crashing I
added some bicarbonate as a buffer since my tap water KH s zero.
As the days passed some of my plants started rotting .... limphonila,
narrow and wide-leaf ludwigas, some of hygro. The only ones left now
are anubias, chain-sword, amazon and bacopa.
>From what I read, ammonia is more toxic at higher ph levels so I tried
not to buffer the water much... but the ph crashes very easily. On the
other hand I also read that the bacteria that converts ammonia to
nitrites and nitrates is more active at neutral ph levels and less
active when the ph is low. So, do I make my fish suffer while the
bacteria processes the ammonia or keep ph low to protect my fish but
risk ammonia not being processed. My ph is through the roof right
now... like more that 4 or even 8.
I was using Amquel previously to condition my tap water but now I have
AmmoLock. Could AmmoLock be the problem?

Thank you for your help and comments!

Additional Note: I stopped adding CO2 because after the ammonia hell
appeared the fish seem to struggle breathing when CO2 is added for the
plants.

Here's some entries from my tank log in reverse date order:

6/23/2006
8pm
KH:1
PH:6.5
CO2:36
PHOSPHATE:0.5
AMMONIA: high off the chart

6/22/2006
8:30am
KH: 2
PH:6.6
CO2: 15
AMMONIA 8?

6/20/2006
8:40am
KH:2
PH:6.6.
AMMONIA 8?
Added 3 capfuls of ammolock

6/11/2006
7:15pm
KH:0
PH: 6 ?
CO2:
AMMONIA: 1
NITRATE:
PHOSPHATE:
Added small teaspoon of Arm&Hammer Bicarbonate

6/10/2006
7:30am
KH: 3
PH: 6.6
CO2: 22
AMMONIA: ???

6/9/2006
6:15pm
KH: 2
PH: 6.6
CO2: 15
AMMONIA: 4 !!!!
PHOSPHATE: 0
NITRATE: 5 (7.5?)
Found one dead bloodfin tetra fish floating on surface
Changed about 40% water. Added K and TMG.

6/8/2006
6:30pm
KH: 2
PH: 6.4
CO2: 23
AMMONIA: 2
PHOSPHATE: 0.5
NITRATE: 10
Changed about 45% of water and Added K and TMG

7:30am
KH: 3
PH: 6.4 (6.5?)
CO2: 35 (28?)
AMMONIA: 1
PHOSPHATE: 0
NITRATE: 10
Added K and TMG

6/7/2006
6:25pm
KH: 3
PH: 6.6
CO2: 22
AMMONIA: 1 (0.85?)
PHOSPHATE: 0 (0.1?)
NITRATE: 20
Changed about 40% of water

[Richard]

Are you using a water treatment that handles chloramines? Has your water
supplier just changed to chloramines?


"Shorty" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Hi!
>
> I had a 55 gallon tank set up at the beginning of this year... I got a
> whole bunch of plants and some fish. Everything seemed to go smooth
> with the usual algea that disappeared after a while when I started
> adding CO2 and fertilizing with K and Micronutrients.
>
> At the beginning of june I noticed that I had a high amount of nitrates
> (20ppm) so I decided to change the water. The ammonia was about 1 at
> that time. I changed about half of the water. The nitrate went down by
> about a half but at the end of next day ammonia climbed to 2. So, in a
> hurry, I did another water change... and guess what... nitrate down by
> 50%. to 5ppm...ammonia up to 4!!!! To keep the water ph from crashing I
> added some bicarbonate as a buffer since my tap water KH s zero.
> As the days passed some of my plants started rotting .... limphonila,
> narrow and wide-leaf ludwigas, some of hygro. The only ones left now
> are anubias, chain-sword, amazon and bacopa.
> >From what I read, ammonia is more toxic at higher ph levels so I tried
> not to buffer the water much... but the ph crashes very easily. On the
> other hand I also read that the bacteria that converts ammonia to
> nitrites and nitrates is more active at neutral ph levels and less
> active when the ph is low. So, do I make my fish suffer while the
> bacteria processes the ammonia or keep ph low to protect my fish but
> risk ammonia not being processed. My ph is through the roof right
> now... like more that 4 or even 8.
> I was using Amquel previously to condition my tap water but now I have
> AmmoLock. Could AmmoLock be the problem?
>
> Thank you for your help and comments!
>
> Additional Note: I stopped adding CO2 because after the ammonia hell
> appeared the fish seem to struggle breathing when CO2 is added for the
> plants.
>
> Here's some entries from my tank log in reverse date order:
>
> 6/23/2006
> 8pm
> KH:1
> PH:6.5
> CO2:36
> PHOSPHATE:0.5
> AMMONIA: high off the chart
>
> 6/22/2006
> 8:30am
> KH: 2
> PH:6.6
> CO2: 15
> AMMONIA 8?
>
> 6/20/2006
> 8:40am
> KH:2
> PH:6.6.
> AMMONIA 8?
> Added 3 capfuls of ammolock
>
> 6/11/2006
> 7:15pm
> KH:0
> PH: 6 ?
> CO2:
> AMMONIA: 1
> NITRATE:
> PHOSPHATE:
> Added small teaspoon of Arm&Hammer Bicarbonate
>
> 6/10/2006
> 7:30am
> KH: 3
> PH: 6.6
> CO2: 22
> AMMONIA: ???
>
> 6/9/2006
> 6:15pm
> KH: 2
> PH: 6.6
> CO2: 15
> AMMONIA: 4 !!!!
> PHOSPHATE: 0
> NITRATE: 5 (7.5?)
> Found one dead bloodfin tetra fish floating on surface
> Changed about 40% water. Added K and TMG.
>
> 6/8/2006
> 6:30pm
> KH: 2
> PH: 6.4
> CO2: 23
> AMMONIA: 2
> PHOSPHATE: 0.5
> NITRATE: 10
> Changed about 45% of water and Added K and TMG
>
> 7:30am
> KH: 3
> PH: 6.4 (6.5?)
> CO2: 35 (28?)
> AMMONIA: 1
> PHOSPHATE: 0
> NITRATE: 10
> Added K and TMG
>
> 6/7/2006
> 6:25pm
> KH: 3
> PH: 6.6
> CO2: 22
> AMMONIA: 1 (0.85?)
> PHOSPHATE: 0 (0.1?)
> NITRATE: 20
> Changed about 40% of water
>

[[email protected]]

Hi, we manufacture and distribute products which completely remove
nitrates and ammonias. Please see www.hdltd.com or
www.memory-doctor.com for information. Or email me at
. Thanks, Gary


Richard wrote:
> Are you using a water treatment that handles chloramines? Has your water
> supplier just changed to chloramines?
>
>
> "Shorty" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> > Hi!
> >
> > I had a 55 gallon tank set up at the beginning of this year... I got a
> > whole bunch of plants and some fish. Everything seemed to go smooth
> > with the usual algea that disappeared after a while when I started
> > adding CO2 and fertilizing with K and Micronutrients.
> >
> > At the beginning of june I noticed that I had a high amount of nitrates
> > (20ppm) so I decided to change the water. The ammonia was about 1 at
> > that time. I changed about half of the water. The nitrate went down by
> > about a half but at the end of next day ammonia climbed to 2. So, in a
> > hurry, I did another water change... and guess what... nitrate down by
> > 50%. to 5ppm...ammonia up to 4!!!! To keep the water ph from crashing I
> > added some bicarbonate as a buffer since my tap water KH s zero.
> > As the days passed some of my plants started rotting .... limphonila,
> > narrow and wide-leaf ludwigas, some of hygro. The only ones left now
> > are anubias, chain-sword, amazon and bacopa.
> > >From what I read, ammonia is more toxic at higher ph levels so I tried
> > not to buffer the water much... but the ph crashes very easily. On the
> > other hand I also read that the bacteria that converts ammonia to
> > nitrites and nitrates is more active at neutral ph levels and less
> > active when the ph is low. So, do I make my fish suffer while the
> > bacteria processes the ammonia or keep ph low to protect my fish but
> > risk ammonia not being processed. My ph is through the roof right
> > now... like more that 4 or even 8.
> > I was using Amquel previously to condition my tap water but now I have
> > AmmoLock. Could AmmoLock be the problem?
> >
> > Thank you for your help and comments!
> >
> > Additional Note: I stopped adding CO2 because after the ammonia hell
> > appeared the fish seem to struggle breathing when CO2 is added for the
> > plants.
> >
> > Here's some entries from my tank log in reverse date order:
> >
> > 6/23/2006
> > 8pm
> > KH:1
> > PH:6.5
> > CO2:36
> > PHOSPHATE:0.5
> > AMMONIA: high off the chart
> >
> > 6/22/2006
> > 8:30am
> > KH: 2
> > PH:6.6
> > CO2: 15
> > AMMONIA 8?
> >
> > 6/20/2006
> > 8:40am
> > KH:2
> > PH:6.6.
> > AMMONIA 8?
> > Added 3 capfuls of ammolock
> >
> > 6/11/2006
> > 7:15pm
> > KH:0
> > PH: 6 ?
> > CO2:
> > AMMONIA: 1
> > NITRATE:
> > PHOSPHATE:
> > Added small teaspoon of Arm&Hammer Bicarbonate
> >
> > 6/10/2006
> > 7:30am
> > KH: 3
> > PH: 6.6
> > CO2: 22
> > AMMONIA: ???
> >
> > 6/9/2006
> > 6:15pm
> > KH: 2
> > PH: 6.6
> > CO2: 15
> > AMMONIA: 4 !!!!
> > PHOSPHATE: 0
> > NITRATE: 5 (7.5?)
> > Found one dead bloodfin tetra fish floating on surface
> > Changed about 40% water. Added K and TMG.
> >
> > 6/8/2006
> > 6:30pm
> > KH: 2
> > PH: 6.4
> > CO2: 23
> > AMMONIA: 2
> > PHOSPHATE: 0.5
> > NITRATE: 10
> > Changed about 45% of water and Added K and TMG
> >
> > 7:30am
> > KH: 3
> > PH: 6.4 (6.5?)
> > CO2: 35 (28?)
> > AMMONIA: 1
> > PHOSPHATE: 0
> > NITRATE: 10
> > Added K and TMG
> >
> > 6/7/2006
> > 6:25pm
> > KH: 3
> > PH: 6.6
> > CO2: 22
> > AMMONIA: 1 (0.85?)
> > PHOSPHATE: 0 (0.1?)
> > NITRATE: 20
> > Changed about 40% of water
> >

[[email protected]]

Shorty wrote:
> Hi!
>
>
> At the beginning of june I noticed that I had a high amount of nitrates
> (20ppm) so I decided to change the water. The ammonia was about 1 at
> that time. I changed about half of the water.


Personally I wouldn't have worried about 20ppm and would have carried
on doing the usual weekly partial water change, maybe increasing it by
a few percent. The ammonia would have concerned me, but could have
been the start of a mini-cycle after cleaning the filter too much or
adding fish.


The nitrate went down by
> about a half but at the end of next day ammonia climbed to 2. So, in a
> hurry, I did another water change... and guess what... nitrate down by
> 50%. to 5ppm...ammonia up to 4!!!!


Are you adding water conditioner to your tap water? Did your ph drop
too low and stall the cycle perhaps?


To keep the water ph from crashing I
> added some bicarbonate as a buffer since my tap water KH s zero.


I use coral substrate (1Kg per 40L) to keep it 7.4'ish. When I first
started out, mine crashed to 6.0 and I had exactly the same problem as
you, so I prefer to keep it high and stable now. My three community
tanks have no problems using coral and I would have thought a stable ph
is more important than using bottles of stuff to alter it to suit the
fish.

IMO you are doing too much fiddling with your tank and need to stop and
take a breather to let things settle down, you simply aren't letting
the thing balance by doing huge water changes and adding bicarbs, which
is a temporary fix at best.

If I was you I would *slowly* add some coral substrate in filter bags,
eventually bury it under your normal substrate. Be careful, adding too
much too quickly can have an _instant_ effect on your ph.

With any luck raising the ph will kick-start your cycle like it did
with mine and I haven't had any ph or cycle problems since, it's the
method I use on my 180L, 125L and 500L and all of these have big pieces
of bogwood in for the plecs which is known to lower the ph over time.

[kitten]

it might also indicate a dead or dying fish.

count your fish?

do you have a cat?? one of my cats loved to pee in the tank... drove me
crazy.

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Shorty wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>>
>> At the beginning of june I noticed that I had a high amount of nitrates
>> (20ppm) so I decided to change the water. The ammonia was about 1 at
>> that time. I changed about half of the water.
>
>
> Personally I wouldn't have worried about 20ppm and would have carried
> on doing the usual weekly partial water change, maybe increasing it by
> a few percent. The ammonia would have concerned me, but could have
> been the start of a mini-cycle after cleaning the filter too much or
> adding fish.
>
>
> The nitrate went down by
>> about a half but at the end of next day ammonia climbed to 2. So, in a
>> hurry, I did another water change... and guess what... nitrate down by
>> 50%. to 5ppm...ammonia up to 4!!!!
>
>
> Are you adding water conditioner to your tap water? Did your ph drop
> too low and stall the cycle perhaps?
>
>
> To keep the water ph from crashing I
>> added some bicarbonate as a buffer since my tap water KH s zero.
>
>
> I use coral substrate (1Kg per 40L) to keep it 7.4'ish. When I first
> started out, mine crashed to 6.0 and I had exactly the same problem as
> you, so I prefer to keep it high and stable now. My three community
> tanks have no problems using coral and I would have thought a stable ph
> is more important than using bottles of stuff to alter it to suit the
> fish.
>
> IMO you are doing too much fiddling with your tank and need to stop and
> take a breather to let things settle down, you simply aren't letting
> the thing balance by doing huge water changes and adding bicarbs, which
> is a temporary fix at best.
>
> If I was you I would *slowly* add some coral substrate in filter bags,
> eventually bury it under your normal substrate. Be careful, adding too
> much too quickly can have an _instant_ effect on your ph.
>
> With any luck raising the ph will kick-start your cycle like it did
> with mine and I haven't had any ph or cycle problems since, it's the
> method I use on my 180L, 125L and 500L and all of these have big pieces
> of bogwood in for the plecs which is known to lower the ph over time.
>

[[email protected]]

kitten wrote:
> do you have a cat?? one of my cats loved to pee in the tank... drove me
> crazy.

LOL, that image is going to stick with me all day!

[Aqua/\\Man]

wrote:
> kitten wrote:
>> do you have a cat?? one of my cats loved to pee in the tank... drove me
>> crazy.
>
> LOL, that image is going to stick with me all day!
>
There is a twisted bit of marketing symmetry there!!

[[email protected]]

Hi, I'd take the other poster's suggestion, relax and slow down, a
single fish loss is common when buying new fish etc. It likely has
nothing to do with the NH4.
The other issue is how do you know the NH4 cheapy test kit is accurate?
I'd be suspicious if you call your tap water supplier up and ask for
the NH4 and the NO3 levels they send to the customers. Stop playing
with pH/KH.

If you add lots of plants, you should never see any NH4.
Take some filter sponge squeezings from an old filter/tank etc and add
that, instant cycling, 20ppm of NO3, assuming that is a correct test
kit reading is ideal.

Make sure you have plenty of plnt biomass, some folks think 2-3 plants
in a 55 gal is a "planted tank".

That does not offer much help.
Some suggest removers for NH4/NO3, well..........that's counter
initutive, that's what the plants are for. That's the focus and they
much better than a media bag of some chemical, I can sell plant
clippings, try selling old spent media sometime.

Wetlands are often used in warmer regions for waste water treatment.
They remove the waste actively and efficiently.

Plants and biological systems make the most effective waste removers.
Take care of their needs and they will maintain excellent water
quality.

Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com



Shorty wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I had a 55 gallon tank set up at the beginning of this year... I got a
> whole bunch of plants and some fish. Everything seemed to go smooth
> with the usual algea that disappeared after a while when I started
> adding CO2 and fertilizing with K and Micronutrients.
>
> At the beginning of june I noticed that I had a high amount of nitrates
> (20ppm) so I decided to change the water. The ammonia was about 1 at
> that time. I changed about half of the water. The nitrate went down by
> about a half but at the end of next day ammonia climbed to 2. So, in a
> hurry, I did another water change... and guess what... nitrate down by
> 50%. to 5ppm...ammonia up to 4!!!! To keep the water ph from crashing I
> added some bicarbonate as a buffer since my tap water KH s zero.
> As the days passed some of my plants started rotting .... limphonila,
> narrow and wide-leaf ludwigas, some of hygro. The only ones left now
> are anubias, chain-sword, amazon and bacopa.
> >From what I read, ammonia is more toxic at higher ph levels so I tried
> not to buffer the water much... but the ph crashes very easily. On the
> other hand I also read that the bacteria that converts ammonia to
> nitrites and nitrates is more active at neutral ph levels and less
> active when the ph is low. So, do I make my fish suffer while the
> bacteria processes the ammonia or keep ph low to protect my fish but
> risk ammonia not being processed. My ph is through the roof right
> now... like more that 4 or even 8.
> I was using Amquel previously to condition my tap water but now I have
> AmmoLock. Could AmmoLock be the problem?
>
> Thank you for your help and comments!
>
> Additional Note: I stopped adding CO2 because after the ammonia hell
> appeared the fish seem to struggle breathing when CO2 is added for the
> plants.
>
> Here's some entries from my tank log in reverse date order:
>
> 6/23/2006
> 8pm
> KH:1
> PH:6.5
> CO2:36
> PHOSPHATE:0.5
> AMMONIA: high off the chart
>
> 6/22/2006
> 8:30am
> KH: 2
> PH:6.6
> CO2: 15
> AMMONIA 8?
>
> 6/20/2006
> 8:40am
> KH:2
> PH:6.6.
> AMMONIA 8?
> Added 3 capfuls of ammolock
>
> 6/11/2006
> 7:15pm
> KH:0
> PH: 6 ?
> CO2:
> AMMONIA: 1
> NITRATE:
> PHOSPHATE:
> Added small teaspoon of Arm&Hammer Bicarbonate
>
> 6/10/2006
> 7:30am
> KH: 3
> PH: 6.6
> CO2: 22
> AMMONIA: ???
>
> 6/9/2006
> 6:15pm
> KH: 2
> PH: 6.6
> CO2: 15
> AMMONIA: 4 !!!!
> PHOSPHATE: 0
> NITRATE: 5 (7.5?)
> Found one dead bloodfin tetra fish floating on surface
> Changed about 40% water. Added K and TMG.
>
> 6/8/2006
> 6:30pm
> KH: 2
> PH: 6.4
> CO2: 23
> AMMONIA: 2
> PHOSPHATE: 0.5
> NITRATE: 10
> Changed about 45% of water and Added K and TMG
>
> 7:30am
> KH: 3
> PH: 6.4 (6.5?)
> CO2: 35 (28?)
> AMMONIA: 1
> PHOSPHATE: 0
> NITRATE: 10
> Added K and TMG
>
> 6/7/2006
> 6:25pm
> KH: 3
> PH: 6.6
> CO2: 22
> AMMONIA: 1 (0.85?)
> PHOSPHATE: 0 (0.1?)
> NITRATE: 20
> Changed about 40% of water

[kay-bee]

Just to rule it out, test your tap water for ammonia levels. The chloramines
in my tap water register as 'ammonia'.

[Shorty]

kay-bee wrote:
> Just to rule it out, test your tap water for ammonia levels. The chloramines
> in my tap water register as 'ammonia'.

Thank you for all the comments. I think the pH did crash and possibly
killed all the beneficial bacteria. I tested my tap water before and
after adding water conditioner and didn't get any ammonia indication. I
think after the ph crash the dead plants may have contributed to the
ammonia increase. I will try to take a more "relaxed" attitude towards
my tank.

[« Grìffîñ »]

kitten wrote:
> it might also indicate a dead or dying fish.
>
> count your fish?
>
> do you have a cat?? one of my cats loved to pee in the tank... drove me
> crazy.
Did the tank cycle properly? = \

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