PMDD, Plantex CSM+B, Greg Watson et al..

[Pete]

I live in the UK and have a 54x24x24 very well planted freshwater
community tank.
3 x 36W Triton flourescent tubes 12 hrs/day
2 x 150W MH 6,500k 8hrs/day
Eheim 2217 Canister filter
Eheim 2329 wet/dry filter

With the exception of vallis and cabomba, the other 180ish plants
(mixed varieties) are barely growing, so I've invested in a
pressureized CO2 setup with pH controller which I will have in
operation by the end of next week.

I've been using Seachem Flourish, Flourish Excel, Flourish Trace and
Flourish Iron to help the plants along and there has been some slight
growth over the past couple of weeks - problem is the cost of these
additives - it cost £73 for enough of the above Flourish products to
last about 6 months, then I came across Greg Watson's site.....

As far as I can tell, I need to get hold of ingredients for Plantex
CSM+B which comprises-

1.5% Magnesium (MG),
1.5% Magnesium (cheleted)
0.10% Copper (Cu)
7.0% Iron (Fe - cheleted),
2.0% Maganese (Mn - Cheleted)
0.06% Molybedenum (MO)
0.40% Zinc (Zn - cheleted).
Boric Acid

A Google UK search for Plantex shows links to Greg's site plus some
others that sell weed-supressing membranes (!!??)
As I'm in the UK I doubt that shipping the chemicals from Canada is
going to be cost effective or allowed by Customs.
Rex Grigg's site gives some links to UK suppliers, but I can't find
the whole list of ingredients.

To make up the macronutrient mix I need-
MgSO4+7H2O (Magnesium Sulfate)
K2SO4 (Potassium Sulfate)
KNO3

Is it possible to buy the ingredients to make CSM+B and the
macronutrients in the UK or is there a 'UK alternative'?

The results from my Nutrafin test kit indicate -

Date Temp Time NO2 PH Fe Fe GH
KH PO4 NO3 NH3/NH4 Ca

chelated 15/07/2006
14.30 0.1 240 140 7
Tap water
15/07/2006 26.2 14.00 0.1 8 0 0 240
100 2.0 50 0 120 Tank Water
22/07/2006 28.2 13.00 0.1 8.2 0 0.01 240
110 1.5 40 0 90 Tank Water

I'm a little suspicious of the pH reading - the tap water here is
hard/very hard (acording to our water supplier) and comes up around
7.4.and a pH test strip (litmus paper) gives 6.8 (!) Matching the
colours on the nutrafin kit I guess depends partly on how colour blind
I am. I find that depending on the angle at which the test tube is
held against the colour matcher almost any shade of the desired colour
could be interpreted, so I wouldn't say the above readings are gospel.

Many thanks in advance

Pete

[Pete]

I thought that table may not come out as hoped....

here's a precis -
tank temp 26C

week1/week2
NO2 0.1/0.1
pH 8.0 / 8.2
Fe 0.0/0.0
Fe Chelated 0.0/0.01
GH 240/240
KH 100/110
PO4 2.0/1.5
NO3 50/40
NH3/NH4 0/0
Ca 120/90

Tap water
NO2 0.1
GH 240
KH 140
NO3 7

[Richard Sexton]

Given that the CSM+B stuff is cheap by the pound and not flammable I'd
just mail order it frankly. I'm not aware of a substitute. Apparanly you
cam mail order KN03 which is a little scary but, whatever. It' usually
available locally as stump remover though or any good chemical supply
hose shold have it.

The amount of potassium sulphate is so damn low and since the phosphate
and nitrate are potassium salts I'm not sure it even makes any sense to
add it.

Magnesium sulphate is "epsom salts" found in any chemists.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Bill Stock]

I order from Greg, even though I'm in Canada. His stuff is so cheap, that
shipping is not an issue. I'm not sure what your customs inspections are
like, but all my packages have been opened and inspected. Especially the
KNO3. :)

I bought my CSM+B locally, as I'm only a few miles from the plant. I add
Potassium as KCL (local) and Phosphate as mono Potassium Phosphate (Greg).
Epsom Salts for the Magnesium of course.

You might also try local hydroponics shops for this stuff.

"Pete" > wrote in message
...
>I live in the UK and have a 54x24x24 very well planted freshwater
> community tank.
> 3 x 36W Triton flourescent tubes 12 hrs/day
> 2 x 150W MH 6,500k 8hrs/day
> Eheim 2217 Canister filter
> Eheim 2329 wet/dry filter
>
> With the exception of vallis and cabomba, the other 180ish plants
> (mixed varieties) are barely growing, so I've invested in a
> pressureized CO2 setup with pH controller which I will have in
> operation by the end of next week.
>
> I've been using Seachem Flourish, Flourish Excel, Flourish Trace and
> Flourish Iron to help the plants along and there has been some slight
> growth over the past couple of weeks - problem is the cost of these
> additives - it cost £73 for enough of the above Flourish products to
> last about 6 months, then I came across Greg Watson's site.....
>
> As far as I can tell, I need to get hold of ingredients for Plantex
> CSM+B which comprises-
>
> 1.5% Magnesium (MG),
> 1.5% Magnesium (cheleted)
> 0.10% Copper (Cu)
> 7.0% Iron (Fe - cheleted),
> 2.0% Maganese (Mn - Cheleted)
> 0.06% Molybedenum (MO)
> 0.40% Zinc (Zn - cheleted).
> Boric Acid
>
> A Google UK search for Plantex shows links to Greg's site plus some
> others that sell weed-supressing membranes (!!??)
> As I'm in the UK I doubt that shipping the chemicals from Canada is
> going to be cost effective or allowed by Customs.
> Rex Grigg's site gives some links to UK suppliers, but I can't find
> the whole list of ingredients.
>
> To make up the macronutrient mix I need-
> MgSO4+7H2O (Magnesium Sulfate)
> K2SO4 (Potassium Sulfate)
> KNO3
>
> Is it possible to buy the ingredients to make CSM+B and the
> macronutrients in the UK or is there a 'UK alternative'?
>
> The results from my Nutrafin test kit indicate -
>
> Date Temp Time NO2 PH Fe Fe GH
> KH PO4 NO3 NH3/NH4 Ca
>
> chelated 15/07/2006
> 14.30 0.1 240 140 7
> Tap water
> 15/07/2006 26.2 14.00 0.1 8 0 0 240
> 100 2.0 50 0 120 Tank Water
> 22/07/2006 28.2 13.00 0.1 8.2 0 0.01 240
> 110 1.5 40 0 90 Tank Water
>
> I'm a little suspicious of the pH reading - the tap water here is
> hard/very hard (acording to our water supplier) and comes up around
> 7.4.and a pH test strip (litmus paper) gives 6.8 (!) Matching the
> colours on the nutrafin kit I guess depends partly on how colour blind
> I am. I find that depending on the angle at which the test tube is
> held against the colour matcher almost any shade of the desired colour
> could be interpreted, so I wouldn't say the above readings are gospel.
>
> Many thanks in advance
>
> Pete

[[email protected]]

Pete, check
www.aquaessentials.com

They sell the KNO3, KH2PO4, CMS etc

Local UK vendor, also sells ADA products like Aqua soil.

Aqua soil + EI dosing does a really great job , all you focus on is CO2
tweaking then.

Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


Pete wrote:
> I live in the UK and have a 54x24x24 very well planted freshwater
> community tank.
> 3 x 36W Triton flourescent tubes 12 hrs/day
> 2 x 150W MH 6,500k 8hrs/day
> Eheim 2217 Canister filter
> Eheim 2329 wet/dry filter
>
> With the exception of vallis and cabomba, the other 180ish plants
> (mixed varieties) are barely growing, so I've invested in a
> pressureized CO2 setup with pH controller which I will have in
> operation by the end of next week.
>
> I've been using Seachem Flourish, Flourish Excel, Flourish Trace and
> Flourish Iron to help the plants along and there has been some slight
> growth over the past couple of weeks - problem is the cost of these
> additives - it cost £73 for enough of the above Flourish products to
> last about 6 months, then I came across Greg Watson's site.....
>
> As far as I can tell, I need to get hold of ingredients for Plantex
> CSM+B which comprises-
>
> 1.5% Magnesium (MG),
> 1.5% Magnesium (cheleted)
> 0.10% Copper (Cu)
> 7.0% Iron (Fe - cheleted),
> 2.0% Maganese (Mn - Cheleted)
> 0.06% Molybedenum (MO)
> 0.40% Zinc (Zn - cheleted).
> Boric Acid
>
> A Google UK search for Plantex shows links to Greg's site plus some
> others that sell weed-supressing membranes (!!??)
> As I'm in the UK I doubt that shipping the chemicals from Canada is
> going to be cost effective or allowed by Customs.
> Rex Grigg's site gives some links to UK suppliers, but I can't find
> the whole list of ingredients.
>
> To make up the macronutrient mix I need-
> MgSO4+7H2O (Magnesium Sulfate)
> K2SO4 (Potassium Sulfate)
> KNO3
>
> Is it possible to buy the ingredients to make CSM+B and the
> macronutrients in the UK or is there a 'UK alternative'?
>
> The results from my Nutrafin test kit indicate -
>
> Date Temp Time NO2 PH Fe Fe GH
> KH PO4 NO3 NH3/NH4 Ca
>
> chelated 15/07/2006
> 14.30 0.1 240 140 7
> Tap water
> 15/07/2006 26.2 14.00 0.1 8 0 0 240
> 100 2.0 50 0 120 Tank Water
> 22/07/2006 28.2 13.00 0.1 8.2 0 0.01 240
> 110 1.5 40 0 90 Tank Water
>
> I'm a little suspicious of the pH reading - the tap water here is
> hard/very hard (acording to our water supplier) and comes up around
> 7.4.and a pH test strip (litmus paper) gives 6.8 (!) Matching the
> colours on the nutrafin kit I guess depends partly on how colour blind
> I am. I find that depending on the angle at which the test tube is
> held against the colour matcher almost any shade of the desired colour
> could be interpreted, so I wouldn't say the above readings are gospel.
>
> Many thanks in advance
>
> Pete

[Pete]

On 28 Jul 2006 20:50:49 -0700, wrote:

>Pete, check
>www.aquaessentials.com
>
>They sell the KNO3, KH2PO4, CMS etc
>
>Local UK vendor, also sells ADA products like Aqua soil.
>
>Aqua soil + EI dosing does a really great job , all you focus on is CO2
>tweaking then.
>
>Regards,
>Tom Barr
>
>www.BarrReport.com
>

Many thanks for your replies guys.

I can't believe that I ordered all the Flourish stuff from
www.aquaessentials.co.uk - I didn't even notice the PMDD link on the
left!!

Thanks again from me and my wallet!!

Pete

[Dick]

On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 18:26:31 +0100, Pete
> wrote:

>I live in the UK and have a 54x24x24 very well planted freshwater
>community tank.
>3 x 36W Triton flourescent tubes 12 hrs/day
>2 x 150W MH 6,500k 8hrs/day
>Eheim 2217 Canister filter
>Eheim 2329 wet/dry filter
>
>With the exception of vallis and cabomba, the other 180ish plants
>(mixed varieties) are barely growing, so I've invested in a
>pressureized CO2 setup with pH controller which I will have in
>operation by the end of next week.
>
>I've been using Seachem Flourish, Flourish Excel, Flourish Trace and
>Flourish Iron to help the plants along and there has been some slight
>growth over the past couple of weeks - problem is the cost of these
>additives - it cost £73 for enough of the above Flourish products to
>last about 6 months, then I came across Greg Watson's site.....
>
>As far as I can tell, I need to get hold of ingredients for Plantex
>CSM+B which comprises-
>
>1.5% Magnesium (MG),
>1.5% Magnesium (cheleted)
>0.10% Copper (Cu)
>7.0% Iron (Fe - cheleted),
>2.0% Maganese (Mn - Cheleted)
>0.06% Molybedenum (MO)
>0.40% Zinc (Zn - cheleted).
>Boric Acid
>
>A Google UK search for Plantex shows links to Greg's site plus some
>others that sell weed-supressing membranes (!!??)
>As I'm in the UK I doubt that shipping the chemicals from Canada is
>going to be cost effective or allowed by Customs.
>Rex Grigg's site gives some links to UK suppliers, but I can't find
>the whole list of ingredients.
>
>To make up the macronutrient mix I need-
>MgSO4+7H2O (Magnesium Sulfate)
> K2SO4 (Potassium Sulfate)
> KNO3
>
>Is it possible to buy the ingredients to make CSM+B and the
>macronutrients in the UK or is there a 'UK alternative'?
>
>The results from my Nutrafin test kit indicate -
>
>Date Temp Time NO2 PH Fe Fe GH
>KH PO4 NO3 NH3/NH4 Ca
>
>chelated 15/07/2006
>14.30 0.1 240 140 7
>Tap water
>15/07/2006 26.2 14.00 0.1 8 0 0 240
>100 2.0 50 0 120 Tank Water
>22/07/2006 28.2 13.00 0.1 8.2 0 0.01 240
>110 1.5 40 0 90 Tank Water
>
>I'm a little suspicious of the pH reading - the tap water here is
>hard/very hard (acording to our water supplier) and comes up around
>7.4.and a pH test strip (litmus paper) gives 6.8 (!) Matching the
>colours on the nutrafin kit I guess depends partly on how colour blind
>I am. I find that depending on the angle at which the test tube is
>held against the colour matcher almost any shade of the desired colour
>could be interpreted, so I wouldn't say the above readings are gospel.
>
>Many thanks in advance
>
>Pete

Hi Pete,

You chemistry types seem to ask for problems. I take the simple
approach, but limit the variety of plants. Just to show what I mean
by simple:

I make 20% water changes twice weekly, no additives, the refill is
straight from the tap. I use no fertilizers for the live plants, they
live on the waste from the fish. I don't use bio filters, just a
simple filter media, no charcoal, no CO2. The lights are all (5
tanks) "low light" and the plants chosen for low light conditions.

I can understand the desire for exotic environments, but there does
appear to be a price to be paid. I just have to weed my plants every
few months.

dick

[Pete]

>
>Hi Pete,
>
>You chemistry types seem to ask for problems. I take the simple
>approach, but limit the variety of plants. Just to show what I mean
>by simple:
>
>I make 20% water changes twice weekly, no additives, the refill is
>straight from the tap. I use no fertilizers for the live plants, they
>live on the waste from the fish. I don't use bio filters, just a
>simple filter media, no charcoal, no CO2. The lights are all (5
>tanks) "low light" and the plants chosen for low light conditions.
>
>I can understand the desire for exotic environments, but there does
>appear to be a price to be paid. I just have to weed my plants every
>few months.
>
>dick

Hi Dick
Oh so very true!!

I've kept tropicals for 30+ years. As a teeneager I had 5 or 6 tanks
in an outside shed and much the same as you, my main community tank
looked nice but not spectacular.
I set up just 1 community tank when I moved here 20yrs ago and I done
a water change about once every 3 months, cleaned the glass every few
weeks and that was about all the maintenance I needed to do.

Then, about 3 months ago the tank started looking rather poorly, the
plants were not growing and I had an outbreak of beard algae which
really started to take over, so some helpful folks on another
newsgroup suggested getting rid of my undergravel filters/powerheads,
so I done that. At the same time I changed all the gravel (I never
liked the colour of the old stuff much anyway). Then it was suggested
that I needed a bio-filter, so I 'invested' £200 in an eheim 2329 to
compliment my existing eheim 2217.
Then it was suggested that the light levels were not enough (3x 36w
triton tubes), so I 'invested' £250 in 2 x 150w Metal Halide lamps,
then I'm told that I need CO2, so I 'invested' another £300 on a
pressurised CO2 setup (which is arriving next week), then I need plant
fertilisers - £75............. so it's cost me an arm and leg so far.

I have to confess that the tanks does now look good, and I'm hoping
that when the CO2 goes on it will look spectacular after a while -
just hope it doesn't end up costing another arm and a leg! - cos then
I'd be left with none!!

There's a few pics of the tank as it was before it got poorly and some
of the new setup at -
http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/speedy99uk/my_photos
if you're interested.

Best wishes
Pete

[Dick]

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 15:48:48 +0100, Pete
> wrote:

>>
>>Hi Pete,
>>
>>You chemistry types seem to ask for problems. I take the simple
>>approach, but limit the variety of plants. Just to show what I mean
>>by simple:
>>
>>I make 20% water changes twice weekly, no additives, the refill is
>>straight from the tap. I use no fertilizers for the live plants, they
>>live on the waste from the fish. I don't use bio filters, just a
>>simple filter media, no charcoal, no CO2. The lights are all (5
>>tanks) "low light" and the plants chosen for low light conditions.
>>
>>I can understand the desire for exotic environments, but there does
>>appear to be a price to be paid. I just have to weed my plants every
>>few months.
>>
>>dick
>
>Hi Dick
>Oh so very true!!
>
>I've kept tropicals for 30+ years. As a teeneager I had 5 or 6 tanks
>in an outside shed and much the same as you, my main community tank
>looked nice but not spectacular.
>I set up just 1 community tank when I moved here 20yrs ago and I done
>a water change about once every 3 months, cleaned the glass every few
>weeks and that was about all the maintenance I needed to do.
>
>Then, about 3 months ago the tank started looking rather poorly, the
>plants were not growing and I had an outbreak of beard algae which
>really started to take over, so some helpful folks on another
>newsgroup suggested getting rid of my undergravel filters/powerheads,
>so I done that. At the same time I changed all the gravel (I never
>liked the colour of the old stuff much anyway). Then it was suggested
>that I needed a bio-filter, so I 'invested' £200 in an eheim 2329 to
>compliment my existing eheim 2217.
>Then it was suggested that the light levels were not enough (3x 36w
>triton tubes), so I 'invested' £250 in 2 x 150w Metal Halide lamps,
>then I'm told that I need CO2, so I 'invested' another £300 on a
>pressurised CO2 setup (which is arriving next week), then I need plant
>fertilisers - £75............. so it's cost me an arm and leg so far.
>
>I have to confess that the tanks does now look good, and I'm hoping
>that when the CO2 goes on it will look spectacular after a while -
>just hope it doesn't end up costing another arm and a leg! - cos then
>I'd be left with none!!
>
>There's a few pics of the tank as it was before it got poorly and some
>of the new setup at -
>http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/speedy99uk/my_photos
>if you're interested.
>
>Best wishes
>Pete

Fine looking tank Pete.

dick

[[email protected]]

Pete wrote:> Many thanks for your replies guys.
>
> I can't believe that I ordered all the Flourish stuff from
> www.aquaessentials.co.uk - I didn't even notice the PMDD link on the
> left!!
>
> Thanks again from me and my wallet!!
> Pete

If you need to relieve your guilt, I do accept paypal:)

Regards,
Tom Barr


www.BarrReport.com

[Pete]

On 30 Jul 2006 22:00:44 -0700, wrote:

>
>
>Pete wrote:> Many thanks for your replies guys.
>>
>> I can't believe that I ordered all the Flourish stuff from
>> www.aquaessentials.co.uk - I didn't even notice the PMDD link on the
>> left!!
>>
>> Thanks again from me and my wallet!!
>> Pete
>
>If you need to relieve your guilt, I do accept paypal:)
>
>Regards,
>Tom Barr
>
>
>www.BarrReport.com

Like your style :)

Pete

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Pete > wrote:
>>I make 20% water changes twice weekly, no additives, the refill is
>>straight from the tap. I use no fertilizers for the live plants, they
>>live on the waste from the fish. I don't use bio filters, just a

While this does work for some poeple it seldome worked for me. Fertilizing
peoperly makes a helluva difference and really is dead easy.

The first time or times is rather daunting. Mixing up solutions,
getting into a shcedule etc, but once there you can't go back
and it's easier than loading a dishwasher.

I just throw some in wednesdays and saturdays plus or minus a day.

Uh, the plant fertilizer, not the dishwasher.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[[email protected]]

GOOD
http://www.caoc3.org

[[email protected]]

Dick wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 18:26:31 +0100, Pete
> > wrote:
>
> >I live in the UK and have a 54x24x24 very well planted freshwater
> >community tank.
> >3 x 36W Triton flourescent tubes 12 hrs/day
> >2 x 150W MH 6,500k 8hrs/day
> >Eheim 2217 Canister filter
> >Eheim 2329 wet/dry filter
> >
> >With the exception of vallis and cabomba, the other 180ish plants
> >(mixed varieties) are barely growing, so I've invested in a
> >pressureized CO2 setup with pH controller which I will have in
> >operation by the end of next week.
> >
> >I've been using Seachem Flourish, Flourish Excel, Flourish Trace and
> >Flourish Iron to help the plants along and there has been some slight
> >growth over the past couple of weeks - problem is the cost of these
> >additives - it cost £73 for enough of the above Flourish products to
> >last about 6 months, then I came across Greg Watson's site.....
> >
> >As far as I can tell, I need to get hold of ingredients for Plantex
> >CSM+B which comprises-
> >
> >1.5% Magnesium (MG),
> >1.5% Magnesium (cheleted)
> >0.10% Copper (Cu)
> >7.0% Iron (Fe - cheleted),
> >2.0% Maganese (Mn - Cheleted)
> >0.06% Molybedenum (MO)
> >0.40% Zinc (Zn - cheleted).
> >Boric Acid
> >
> >A Google UK search for Plantex shows links to Greg's site plus some
> >others that sell weed-supressing membranes (!!??)
> >As I'm in the UK I doubt that shipping the chemicals from Canada is
> >going to be cost effective or allowed by Customs.
> >Rex Grigg's site gives some links to UK suppliers, but I can't find
> >the whole list of ingredients.
> >
> >To make up the macronutrient mix I need-
> >MgSO4+7H2O (Magnesium Sulfate)
> > K2SO4 (Potassium Sulfate)
> > KNO3
> >
> >Is it possible to buy the ingredients to make CSM+B and the
> >macronutrients in the UK or is there a 'UK alternative'?
> >
> >The results from my Nutrafin test kit indicate -
> >
> >Date Temp Time NO2 PH Fe Fe GH
> >KH PO4 NO3 NH3/NH4 Ca
> >
> >chelated 15/07/2006
> >14.30 0.1 240 140 7
> >Tap water
> >15/07/2006 26.2 14.00 0.1 8 0 0 240
> >100 2.0 50 0 120 Tank Water
> >22/07/2006 28.2 13.00 0.1 8.2 0 0.01 240
> >110 1.5 40 0 90 Tank Water
> >
> >I'm a little suspicious of the pH reading - the tap water here is
> >hard/very hard (acording to our water supplier) and comes up around
> >7.4.and a pH test strip (litmus paper) gives 6.8 (!) Matching the
> >colours on the nutrafin kit I guess depends partly on how colour blind
> >I am. I find that depending on the angle at which the test tube is
> >held against the colour matcher almost any shade of the desired colour
> >could be interpreted, so I wouldn't say the above readings are gospel.
> >
> >Many thanks in advance
> >
> >Pete
>
> Hi Pete,
>
> You chemistry types seem to ask for problems. I take the simple
> approach, but limit the variety of plants. Just to show what I mean
> by simple:
>
> I make 20% water changes twice weekly, no additives, the refill is
> straight from the tap. I use no fertilizers for the live plants, they
> live on the waste from the fish. I don't use bio filters, just a
> simple filter media, no charcoal, no CO2. The lights are all (5
> tanks) "low light" and the plants chosen for low light conditions.
>
> I can understand the desire for exotic environments, but there does
> appear to be a price to be paid. I just have to weed my plants every
> few months.
>
> dick

There are strong arguments for both CO2 enrichment and not.
Each has a trade off.

I have non CO2 tanks also, but unlike your tank, I can keep most any
plant species, they show no signs of issues.

Unlike your suggestion, I also do not need to do any water changes at
all. I add water for evaporation loss only and this goes on for 6-12
months before I do a good pruning and need to clean up and do a water
change. Fish health is excellent. No algae at all. Stays that way.

I add ferts once a week, a small amount, 3 things, they cost so little,
10$ would last a lifetime for most tanks using this method. This is no
harder than feeding the fish once a week 3 things. So the whole ferts
addition routine is somehow "hard", is poppycock.

Many don't add any ferts and rely solely on fish waste byut then your
plant health and choices are reduced, the once a week small additions
makes a large difference in this area and it very little trouble,
feeding trhe fish daily is much more trouble truthfully.

Some use Excel and do water changes and add ferts 1-2x a week and get
about 3x the growth or more than the non CO2/carbon enriched methods.

CO2 increases growth about 10x faster, you can do a lot of gardening
this way. If all you want is slow/no growth, then this method is not
for you.

But I'd not suggest a method is worse/better without having master both
first.
Each has a trade off and the goal of the individual varies, but that
does not imply the method that might be bad for you, is bad for anyone
else.

If you have only done CO2, try non CO2, if all you have ever done is
non CO2, try CO2.
I don't "need" to have an aquarium either, but that's hardly an
argument just like not "needing" CO2.

You do get something out of it and there's a trade off. I can say I can
go look in the lake and see all the plants I want, that's easier
certainly and cost me nothing. Without haviugn tried a planted tank in
my home or a tank at all, I'd not know the difference.


Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
> wrote:
>Unlike your suggestion, I also do not need to do any water changes at
>all. I add water for evaporation loss only and this goes on for 6-12
>months before I do a good pruning and need to clean up and do a water
>change. Fish health is excellent. No algae at all. Stays that way.

I subscribe to Tom's particular brand of heresy also. And it does indeed
work very well. No CO2, Add replacement water when it evaporates, and
add ferts (I only dose 2x a week) and the result is unbelievable.

Who knew defying 100 years of established aquarium lore and literature
was the right answer?


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

[Pete]

On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 01:23:39 +0000 (UTC), (Richard
Sexton) wrote:

>In article . com>,
> > wrote:
>>Unlike your suggestion, I also do not need to do any water changes at
>>all. I add water for evaporation loss only and this goes on for 6-12
>>months before I do a good pruning and need to clean up and do a water
>>change. Fish health is excellent. No algae at all. Stays that way.
>
>I subscribe to Tom's particular brand of heresy also. And it does indeed
>work very well. No CO2, Add replacement water when it evaporates, and
>add ferts (I only dose 2x a week) and the result is unbelievable.
>
>Who knew defying 100 years of established aquarium lore and literature
>was the right answer?

I've kept tropicals for 30+yrs. My current tank 54 x 18 x 24 was setup
20 yrs ago.
No CO2, 3 x 36X flouro's eheim 2217 filter, UGF's.
I used to do a 1/3 water change about once every 3 months, clean the
filter a couple of times a year and that was about it.

I bought a mixed selection of plants, most died, but those that liked
the conditions flourished, maintenence was almost non-existent and
the tank looked good if not spectacular.
These conditions lasted for nearly 20yrs, then the tank was hit by
'old tank syndrome' which led me to where I am today. And I have to
say that even though it's been expensive and quite a lot of work
(installing MH lights, removing UGF's, replacing gravel, adding
wet/dry filter, CO2), the early signs of using CO2 and Tom's EI
routine ar very impressive - even though I only switched the CO2 on on
1 Aug, cabomba and vallis have gone crazy, and the more demanding
plants that were previously just algae-hosts have got new leaves -
many thanks Tom!!

Best wishes
Pete

[Pete]

On 30 Jul 2006 22:00:44 -0700, wrote:

>
>
>Pete wrote:> Many thanks for your replies guys.
>>
>> I can't believe that I ordered all the Flourish stuff from
>> www.aquaessentials.co.uk - I didn't even notice the PMDD link on the
>> left!!
>>
>> Thanks again from me and my wallet!!
>> Pete
>
>If you need to relieve your guilt, I do accept paypal:)
>
>Regards,
>Tom Barr
>
>
>www.BarrReport.com

Giult duly relieved.
I signed-up a couple if days ago....

Pete

[[email protected]]

Pete , most of what you see is due to CO2.
Carbon is 40-45% of the plant biomass, limiting it really slows things
down.
Getting the nutrients right is actually very easy and requires little
testing.

CO2 is all that is left and should always be carefully considered when
the plant growth slows down for anyb reason or algae appears.

95% of all algae related issues twend to be CO2, not enough.
Simply adding a tad more and then observing thereafter works well.
Be careful and do this slowly, do not be liberal with this step wise
increase.
Folks have killed their fish by gassing them.

Having some surface ripples is good IME/IMO.
Do not go so far trying to conserve CO2, you can always add more and
this will allow you to add plenty and still ahve decent O2 levels for
fish.
The rest is really just pruning, cleaning, water changes etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com





Pete wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 01:23:39 +0000 (UTC), (Richard
> Sexton) wrote:
>
> >In article . com>,
> > > wrote:
> >>Unlike your suggestion, I also do not need to do any water changes at
> >>all. I add water for evaporation loss only and this goes on for 6-12
> >>months before I do a good pruning and need to clean up and do a water
> >>change. Fish health is excellent. No algae at all. Stays that way.
> >
> >I subscribe to Tom's particular brand of heresy also. And it does indeed
> >work very well. No CO2, Add replacement water when it evaporates, and
> >add ferts (I only dose 2x a week) and the result is unbelievable.
> >
> >Who knew defying 100 years of established aquarium lore and literature
> >was the right answer?
>
> I've kept tropicals for 30+yrs. My current tank 54 x 18 x 24 was setup
> 20 yrs ago.
> No CO2, 3 x 36X flouro's eheim 2217 filter, UGF's.
> I used to do a 1/3 water change about once every 3 months, clean the
> filter a couple of times a year and that was about it.
>
> I bought a mixed selection of plants, most died, but those that liked
> the conditions flourished, maintenence was almost non-existent and
> the tank looked good if not spectacular.
> These conditions lasted for nearly 20yrs, then the tank was hit by
> 'old tank syndrome' which led me to where I am today. And I have to
> say that even though it's been expensive and quite a lot of work
> (installing MH lights, removing UGF's, replacing gravel, adding
> wet/dry filter, CO2), the early signs of using CO2 and Tom's EI
> routine ar very impressive - even though I only switched the CO2 on on
> 1 Aug, cabomba and vallis have gone crazy, and the more demanding
> plants that were previously just algae-hosts have got new leaves -
> many thanks Tom!!
>
> Best wishes
> Pete

[Pete]

Thanks Tom - See you at the Barr Report forum where I became a
subscriber a few days ago!!

Best wishes
Pete

On 15 Aug 2006 12:46:08 -0700, wrote:

>Pete , most of what you see is due to CO2.
>Carbon is 40-45% of the plant biomass, limiting it really slows things
>down.
>Getting the nutrients right is actually very easy and requires little
>testing.
>
>CO2 is all that is left and should always be carefully considered when
>the plant growth slows down for anyb reason or algae appears.
>
>95% of all algae related issues twend to be CO2, not enough.
>Simply adding a tad more and then observing thereafter works well.
>Be careful and do this slowly, do not be liberal with this step wise
>increase.
>Folks have killed their fish by gassing them.
>
>Having some surface ripples is good IME/IMO.
>Do not go so far trying to conserve CO2, you can always add more and
>this will allow you to add plenty and still ahve decent O2 levels for
>fish.
>The rest is really just pruning, cleaning, water changes etc.
>
>Regards,
>Tom Barr
>
>www.BarrReport.com
>
>
>
>
>
>Pete wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 01:23:39 +0000 (UTC), (Richard
>> Sexton) wrote:
>>
>> >In article . com>,
>> > > wrote:
>> >>Unlike your suggestion, I also do not need to do any water changes at
>> >>all. I add water for evaporation loss only and this goes on for 6-12
>> >>months before I do a good pruning and need to clean up and do a water
>> >>change. Fish health is excellent. No algae at all. Stays that way.
>> >
>> >I subscribe to Tom's particular brand of heresy also. And it does indeed
>> >work very well. No CO2, Add replacement water when it evaporates, and
>> >add ferts (I only dose 2x a week) and the result is unbelievable.
>> >
>> >Who knew defying 100 years of established aquarium lore and literature
>> >was the right answer?
>>
>> I've kept tropicals for 30+yrs. My current tank 54 x 18 x 24 was setup
>> 20 yrs ago.
>> No CO2, 3 x 36X flouro's eheim 2217 filter, UGF's.
>> I used to do a 1/3 water change about once every 3 months, clean the
>> filter a couple of times a year and that was about it.
>>
>> I bought a mixed selection of plants, most died, but those that liked
>> the conditions flourished, maintenence was almost non-existent and
>> the tank looked good if not spectacular.
>> These conditions lasted for nearly 20yrs, then the tank was hit by
>> 'old tank syndrome' which led me to where I am today. And I have to
>> say that even though it's been expensive and quite a lot of work
>> (installing MH lights, removing UGF's, replacing gravel, adding
>> wet/dry filter, CO2), the early signs of using CO2 and Tom's EI
>> routine ar very impressive - even though I only switched the CO2 on on
>> 1 Aug, cabomba and vallis have gone crazy, and the more demanding
>> plants that were previously just algae-hosts have got new leaves -
>> many thanks Tom!!
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Pete