Pond Shelves - Recommendations Please?

[Davy]

I am constructing a 16 sq m butyl-lined wildlife pond. I have built shelves
200mm (8") deep and 500 (18")mm wide. Because the pond is quite large and
will need many marginal plants I intend to plant direct into soil on the
shelves. I will try to shape the soil under the butyl to provide a small dam
to retain the soil.

Is this reasonable? Any recommendations?

thanks

Davy

[Rodney Pont]

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 11:02:48 +0100, Davy wrote:

>I am constructing a 16 sq m butyl-lined wildlife pond. I have built shelves
>200mm (8") deep and 500 (18")mm wide. Because the pond is quite large and
>will need many marginal plants I intend to plant direct into soil on the
>shelves. I will try to shape the soil under the butyl to provide a small dam
>to retain the soil.
>
>Is this reasonable? Any recommendations?

I think it's reasonable but I would use gravel instead of soil. It's
far less likely to float away and it will clog up with bits of wind
blown soil in time anyway but will be more stable. Like any plants they
will need tending such as weeding and cutting/pulling back and that
should be easier if they are in gravel.

Adding some sloping edge to the pond will help frogs, toads and newts
to exit the pond when they wish. Toads and newts tend to use ponds just
for breeding and spend much of their lives in the surrounding ground
out of the pond.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[Köi-Lö]

"Davy" > wrote in message
...
>I am constructing a 16 sq m butyl-lined wildlife pond. I have built
>shelves
> 200mm (8") deep and 500 (18")mm wide. Because the pond is quite large and
> will need many marginal plants I intend to plant direct into soil on the
> shelves. I will try to shape the soil under the butyl to provide a small
> dam
> to retain the soil.
>
> Is this reasonable? Any recommendations?
=========================
I tried that in our original pond. Never again. When it came time to thin
out the plants they were one solid mass. The soil had become waterborne and
with the algae the filter pad clogged constantly. We pulled the whole mass
out in sections and now all the plants are in pots. It controls their
growth and they're easy to prune, repot and/or move around.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[sean mckinney]

I assume you are UK based since you use metric dimensions.
My wildlife pond is plants, planted loose, in soil, straight over the
liner with the exception of where there are large folds, there I put a
flat layer of plastic over the liner so that the roots cant get into
the fold. Personally I am very pleased with the result.
What Koi-lo says about the roots growing all together is true but, with
the exception of reeds (possibly norfolk reed) and Typha latifolia,
reedmace or cattails (frequently incorrectly called bull rush) that
doesnt bother me, I should have potted the reeds and cattails in solid
containers.
Re making it animal friendly, I would suggest that you ramp the soil on
the shelf so that it breaks the surface within an inch or so of the edge
of the pond, if you dont want it breaking the surface then bring it to
within 1/2" or slightly less of the surface. My shallow shelf is about
2" to the liner and the soil breaks the surface, I think it would have
been deeper to the liner with a suitably thicker layer of soil.
If you are UK and you want fish I would stock the pond with either
minnows or sticklebacks, my stickle backs jumped into a suitable
container whilst I was walking in a feeder stream for a local
resevoir.

DO NOT add the plant Tillaea recurva, Crassula helmsii, australian
stone crop, http://tinyurl.com/kwz43 its chuffing invasive and can
smother more desirable plants

My pond is not filtered but there is a pump driving a small stream. I
do not feed the fish in the pond apart from once in a blue moon with
any mosquito larvae I find elsewhere in the garden.
If you do like wise then until the higher plants become established
expect the pond to be thick with blanket weed but since the end of my
first season I have not had any blanket weed. I added the floater
azolla during the first summer and that thrived but again since the
higher plants became established the azolla barely ticks over and I
would doubt it I have more than 6" square of it. If you use azolla
during your first season and harvest any of it COMPOST the crop do NOT
throw it out. I would suggest you harvest it once you see it start to
turn red, it can die off and sink rather quickly and in another pond
which was totally covered by a thick layer of it the decaying material
on the bottom of the pond could be smelt in the air around the pond and
would probably kill any animal life in there.

My pond is surrounded by turf, small amphibians, in my case froglets,
can stick to hot dry concrete and probably rocks, they will then
dehydrate and die. The only way they can be released with out skinning
them is to soak the concrete with water.

How are you thinking of 'land scaping' around your pond?
What plants are you thinking of? Lilies my be inadvisable depending on
how wild you want your pond to be, they may not like winter and early
sppring competition for light whilst 'running' on over wintering pads.
I suggest you stick largely to native plants.




--
sean mckinney

[[email protected]]

I would use larger stones, not just gravel. build it and the dirt will come. there
is no way to prevent the accumulation of dirt in a pond except by removing it
mechanically. Ingrid


"Rodney Pont" > wrote:

>On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 11:02:48 +0100, Davy wrote:
>
>>I am constructing a 16 sq m butyl-lined wildlife pond. I have built shelves
>>200mm (8") deep and 500 (18")mm wide. Because the pond is quite large and
>>will need many marginal plants I intend to plant direct into soil on the
>>shelves. I will try to shape the soil under the butyl to provide a small dam
>>to retain the soil.
>>
>>Is this reasonable? Any recommendations?
>
>I think it's reasonable but I would use gravel instead of soil. It's
>far less likely to float away and it will clog up with bits of wind
>blown soil in time anyway but will be more stable. Like any plants they
>will need tending such as weeding and cutting/pulling back and that
>should be easier if they are in gravel.
>
>Adding some sloping edge to the pond will help frogs, toads and newts
>to exit the pond when they wish. Toads and newts tend to use ponds just
>for breeding and spend much of their lives in the surrounding ground
>out of the pond.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

[Davy]

So Koi-Lo strongly recommends against planting straight into gravel/soil
because the roots become matted and the whole substrate needs to be taken up
when doing the plant maintenance; whilst Sean McKinney says it is not a
problem (but doesn't elaborate on why it is not a problem).

Any other views on the basket/earth issue for wildlife ponds? At the moment
I am leaning to planting in gravel because a new 16 sq m pond will need a
lot of baskets (?) and because baskets might make the planting not look too
formal (?).

cheers

Davy

"Davy" > wrote in message
...
> I am constructing a 16 sq m butyl-lined wildlife pond. I have built
shelves
> 200mm (8") deep and 500 (18")mm wide. Because the pond is quite large and
> will need many marginal plants I intend to plant direct into soil on the
> shelves. I will try to shape the soil under the butyl to provide a small
dam
> to retain the soil.
>
> Is this reasonable? Any recommendations?
>
> thanks
>
> Davy
>
>

[Köi-Lö]

"Davy" > wrote in message
...
> So Koi-Lo strongly recommends against planting straight into gravel/soil
> because the roots become matted and the whole substrate needs to be taken
> up
> when doing the plant maintenance; whilst Sean McKinney says it is not a
> problem (but doesn't elaborate on why it is not a problem).

Perhaps he and I used different plants. We had one section about 12' long
that was a solid smelly, mulm filled, very heavy strip of plants that were a
real problem to remove. We had to be careful not to cut into the liner as
we tried to cut them into manageable sections. We both said "Never again!"

> Any other views on the basket/earth issue for wildlife ponds? At the
> moment
> I am leaning to planting in gravel because a new 16 sq m pond will need a
> lot of baskets (?) and because baskets might make the planting not look
> too
> formal (?).

If you don't plan to ever cleaning out your pond or having to cull out
excess fish and plants, then go for it! :-)
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[TiburonBlanco]

Carolyn Adamo Gulley (KOI-LO)
3245 North Lamar Road Mount Juliet TN 37122-7806
Phone 615-459-9345

Carol claims she is an expert on Fish and aquariums. This has been a
confirmed lie as well. All her advice comes from other sources, which
plagerize and claims as her own.

Before you reply to her on any topic , you may want to ask her a few
things or only one.
_Where does she get her information?
_Can her information be verified?
_Is the information up to date?
_What is the purpose of her post?

O the topic of fish, ask where she got her information, and since she
replies on several aquarium newsgroups, where does she gets the time to
do what she claim she does?
an analysis of her usenet posting indicates sge is glued to her
keyboard harrassing JW's.

Carol is well known Nut case in Mt Juliet TN. Don't belive me?
ask every one here

[~ janj]

>So Koi-Lo strongly recommends against planting straight into gravel/soil
>because the roots become matted and the whole substrate needs to be taken up
>when doing the plant maintenance; whilst Sean McKinney says it is not a
>problem (but doesn't elaborate on why it is not a problem).
>
>Any other views on the basket/earth issue for wildlife ponds? At the moment
>I am leaning to planting in gravel because a new 16 sq m pond will need a
>lot of baskets (?) and because baskets might make the planting not look too
>formal (?). Davy

Seems to me... in your situation, matting might be a good thing. It would
keep the shelf area firm if there are any sort of 4 footed wildlife you are
trying to attract. They'd knock over baskets. ~ jan www.jjspond.us
-----------------

Also ponding troll free at:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium

[Davy]

Rodney,

OK so gravel it is rather than earth. But will I need to add some soil to
the gravel at first to get the plants growing or can water plants grow in
clean gravel?

thanks

Davy

"Rodney Pont" > wrote in message
news:atcfzvasbuvgflfgrzfygqhx.j36gwv0.pminews@ouse ...
> On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 11:02:48 +0100, Davy wrote:
>
> >I am constructing a 16 sq m butyl-lined wildlife pond. I have built
shelves
> >200mm (8") deep and 500 (18")mm wide. Because the pond is quite large
and
> >will need many marginal plants I intend to plant direct into soil on the
> >shelves. I will try to shape the soil under the butyl to provide a small
dam
> >to retain the soil.
> >
> >Is this reasonable? Any recommendations?
>
> I think it's reasonable but I would use gravel instead of soil. It's
> far less likely to float away and it will clog up with bits of wind
> blown soil in time anyway but will be more stable. Like any plants they
> will need tending such as weeding and cutting/pulling back and that
> should be easier if they are in gravel.
>
> Adding some sloping edge to the pond will help frogs, toads and newts
> to exit the pond when they wish. Toads and newts tend to use ponds just
> for breeding and spend much of their lives in the surrounding ground
> out of the pond.
>
> --
> Regards - Rodney Pont
> The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
> please send any emails to the address below
> e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk
>
>

[Derek Broughton]

Davy wrote:

> OK so gravel it is rather than earth. But will I need to add some soil to
> the gravel at first to get the plants growing or can water plants grow in
> clean gravel?

_Many_ (but not all) water plants can grow without soil. I tie my lilies to
a rock, and drop them in - they don't have gravel or soil. Cattails and
irises do fine without soil. With plants I'm not sure about, I'll try some
bare-root and some in soil and see what does better.
--
derek

[Rodney Pont]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 08:35:41 +0100, Davy wrote:

>Rodney,
>
>OK so gravel it is rather than earth. But will I need to add some soil to
>the gravel at first to get the plants growing or can water plants grow in
>clean gravel?

It's entirely up to you. I don't and things grow well enough. I can't
say if they would grow any better in soil but it does make life easier
not having to worry about it floating around :-)

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[[email protected]]

this is a WILDLIFE POND (for those talking about "cleaning")
they will grow in clean gravel or rocks.


"Davy" > wrote:

>Rodney,
>
>OK so gravel it is rather than earth. But will I need to add some soil to
>the gravel at first to get the plants growing or can water plants grow in
>clean gravel?
>
>thanks
>
>Davy


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan