What did I do wrong?

[Brian]

I have a 20 gal tank with 3 orange tetras, 3 lemon tetras and 2 algae
eaters. I noticed the water getting slightly turbid and proceeded to rinse
off the filter, and I added some water clarifier (5mL). A couple of hours
later the three lemon tetras were dead. The other fish were OK. I've
performed this procedure many times before without any problems. Any ideas?
Thanks.

[Toni]

"Brian" > wrote in message
...
> I have a 20 gal tank with 3 orange tetras, 3 lemon tetras and 2 algae
> eaters. I noticed the water getting slightly turbid and proceeded to
rinse
> off the filter, and I added some water clarifier (5mL). A couple of hours
> later the three lemon tetras were dead. The other fish were OK. I've
> performed this procedure many times before without any problems. Any
ideas?



Did you rinse the filter in tap water or tank water?


--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/discus.htm

[Dick]

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:44:33 GMT, "Toni" > wrote:

>
>"Brian" > wrote in message
...
>> I have a 20 gal tank with 3 orange tetras, 3 lemon tetras and 2 algae
>> eaters. I noticed the water getting slightly turbid and proceeded to
>rinse
>> off the filter, and I added some water clarifier (5mL). A couple of hours
>> later the three lemon tetras were dead. The other fish were OK. I've
>> performed this procedure many times before without any problems. Any
>ideas?
>
>
>
>Did you rinse the filter in tap water or tank water?


Toni, isn't that reaching a bit far? The filter was cleaned, not the
water replaced. I always rinse my filters in tap water.

Brian, you haven't given much to go on.

I don't use the word "turbid", but from the dictionary I gather the
water was "milky."

I would quit feeding my fish for a day or two if it is an established
tank, but if this is a new tank and going through its new tank cycle,
then the milkiness is normal. How long has the tank been established,
how long have you had the fish?

If this is a new tank and new fish, you might wonder about the health
of the fish when you got them from the local fish store, then too you
could examine how you handled the fish on the way home or their
transfer to the new tank.

Rinsing a filter sounds pretty innocuous. I don't know anything about
Orange or Lemon Tetras, I have 3 other varieties and they are very
hardy fish.

I do not like adding chemicals. One must be so cautious to use them
"as directed". I once overdosed one tank while adjusting for pH. I
killed a couple of fish and had the rest in shock. I haven't tried to
adjust the pH in my tanks for over 9 months and all is well.

[Toni]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:44:33 GMT, "Toni" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Brian" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> I have a 20 gal tank with 3 orange tetras, 3 lemon tetras and 2 algae
> >> eaters. I noticed the water getting slightly turbid and proceeded to
> >rinse
> >> off the filter, and I added some water clarifier (5mL). A couple of
hours
> >> later the three lemon tetras were dead. The other fish were OK. I've
> >> performed this procedure many times before without any problems. Any
> >ideas?
> >
> >
> >
> >Did you rinse the filter in tap water or tank water?
>
>
> Toni, isn't that reaching a bit far? The filter was cleaned, not the
> water replaced. I always rinse my filters in tap water.
>


That destroys your biological filter.


--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/discus.htm

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Toni wrote:
> "Dick" > wrote in message

> > Toni, isn't that reaching a bit far? The filter was cleaned, not the
> > water replaced. I always rinse my filters in tap water.
>
> That destroys your biological filter.

Agree with Toni on that. Tap water has chlorine/chloramine, chlorine/chloramine
will kill
any bacteria it comes in contact with. Filters should always be rinsed in tank
water
or treated tap water.

[RedForeman ©®]

>>> Toni, isn't that reaching a bit far? The filter was cleaned, not
>>> the water replaced. I always rinse my filters in tap water.
>>
>> That destroys your biological filter.
>
> Agree with Toni on that. Tap water has chlorine/chloramine,
> chlorine/chloramine will kill
> any bacteria it comes in contact with. Filters should always be
> rinsed in tank water
> or treated tap water.

I cant' tell you how many times I've done this, washed it off in tap
water... never had a problem except in a NEWER tank, where it sent off a
temporary mini-cycle... since then, I've always used tap water with no
problems...

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø


is that better??

[NetMax]

"Brian" > wrote in message
...
> I have a 20 gal tank with 3 orange tetras, 3 lemon tetras and 2 algae
> eaters. I noticed the water getting slightly turbid and proceeded to
rinse
> off the filter, and I added some water clarifier (5mL). A couple of
hours
> later the three lemon tetras were dead. The other fish were OK. I've
> performed this procedure many times before without any problems. Any
ideas?
> Thanks.

There is insufficient information to make any educated guesses other than
it was some type of water shock. You would need to provide age of tank,
filter & your cleaning routine. Water clarifier is a flocculent. You
sound like you are a regular user(?). Under normal circumstances you
should never need flocculants to keep water clear. What is your tank's
pH and what is your water change routine (qty & interval), perhaps there
would be some clues there.

cheers
NetMax

[Brian]

Hi. My 20 gal tank is 7 months old, as are all the fish. The filter is a
TopFin 20 which is a fibre sack containing a frame and carbon. I rinse the
filter every couple weeks and change it completely every 4-6 weeks. I
tested the water right after the 3 fish died and pH, NO2, NO3 and ammonia
were all OK. I test these every 2 weeks and have never had a problem.
Every week I syphon off about 1/4 of the water, vacuuming the gravel at the
same time. I have used the clarifier 4 or 5 times during the last couple of
months because of water cloudiness. The clarifier worked quite well. It's
been about 24 hrs since the 3 lemon tetras died and all the other fish seem
to be OK. The water clarifier instructions say that it can be used on a
weekly basis. I have'nt used it that often.

Brian

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Brian" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I have a 20 gal tank with 3 orange tetras, 3 lemon tetras and 2 algae
> > eaters. I noticed the water getting slightly turbid and proceeded to
> rinse
> > off the filter, and I added some water clarifier (5mL). A couple of
> hours
> > later the three lemon tetras were dead. The other fish were OK. I've
> > performed this procedure many times before without any problems. Any
> ideas?
> > Thanks.
>
> There is insufficient information to make any educated guesses other than
> it was some type of water shock. You would need to provide age of tank,
> filter & your cleaning routine. Water clarifier is a flocculent. You
> sound like you are a regular user(?). Under normal circumstances you
> should never need flocculants to keep water clear. What is your tank's
> pH and what is your water change routine (qty & interval), perhaps there
> would be some clues there.
>
> cheers
> NetMax
>
>

[Dinky]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
|
| I cant' tell you how many times I've done this, washed it off in
tap
| water... never had a problem except in a NEWER tank, where it sent
off a
| temporary mini-cycle... since then, I've always used tap water with
no
| problems...
|

Same here. In an established tank, the bacteria is EVERYWHERE. Losing
the bacteria on the filter media is a minor setback at best. Even so,
I have 2 layers in all my power filters and rinse them alternately,
just to be on the safe side, since most of my FW tanks are
overstocked.

b

[Dinky]

"Brian" > wrote in message
...
| to be OK. The water clarifier instructions say that it can be used
on a
| weekly basis.

That's because they want you to buy more.<g> Like max said, those
products are totally unneeded in a healthy tank...in most cases.

When you say you rinse the filter, how do you do this? Is your tank
in the sun? Is the cloudiness green?

billy

[Graham Broadbridge]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...

> I cant' tell you how many times I've done this, washed it off in tap
> water... never had a problem except in a NEWER tank, where it sent off a
> temporary mini-cycle... since then, I've always used tap water with no
> problems...

You're either very lucky or your tap water is very low in
chlorine/chloramine. Last time I used tapwater to rinse my filter material
the whole tank had to cycle again. I lost 5 large clown loaches, a kissing
gourami, a blue gourami and dozens of neon tetras.

I've not made the same mistake again :-)

Perhaps you have an undergravel filter running as well? That probably would
take up the bio load until your other filter recovered.


Graham.

[RedForeman ©®]

> "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
>> I cant' tell you how many times I've done this, washed it off in tap
>> water... never had a problem except in a NEWER tank, where it sent
>> off a temporary mini-cycle... since then, I've always used tap water
>> with no problems...
>
> You're either very lucky or your tap water is very low in
> chlorine/chloramine. Last time I used tapwater to rinse my filter
> material the whole tank had to cycle again. I lost 5 large clown
> loaches, a kissing gourami, a blue gourami and dozens of neon tetras.
>
> I've not made the same mistake again :-)
>
> Perhaps you have an undergravel filter running as well? That
> probably would take up the bio load until your other filter recovered.
>
>
> Graham.

No UGF, gave up on them when my prize tank took a pH crash along with all my
peacocks, rainbows, CLs, and others... OTS did 'em in... and it was in
essense, my fault for not taking it out sooner.... never again will I run a
UGF

My guess is just the plants are breaking down what nasties happen to be
there, being that it's a 3year old established, never messed with 10g
breeder tank, why fix it if it's not broken attitude, the java ferns double
in size every 6-9 months, kribs breed ok, so I've just not changed anything,
including a filter except for 2x a year.... luck....

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø


is that better??

[Eric Schreiber]

Geezer From The Freezer wrote:

>> That destroys your biological filter.

> Agree with Toni on that. Tap water has chlorine/chloramine,
> chlorine/chloramine will kill any bacteria it comes in
> contact with. Filters should always be rinsed in tank
> water or treated tap water.


The OP is talking about a filter cartridge intended to be discarded and
replaced on a regular basis. In other words, mechanical/chemical
filtration, not biological. Some biofiltering bacteria will get
established on that medium of course, but it will likewise be on every
other surface in the tank. Even if a brief rinsing is killing the
biofilter capabilities of the discardable cartridge, the rest of the
tank should have a well-established biofilter, and the effect shouldn't
be more extreme than just dropping in a new cartridge.

Now, for removing gunk from media intended primarily as bio-filtration,
absolutely it should be cleaned in non-chlorinated water.

--
www.ericschreiber.com

[NetMax]

"Eric Schreiber" <eric at ericschreiber dot com> wrote in message
...
> Geezer From The Freezer wrote:
>
> >> That destroys your biological filter.
>
> > Agree with Toni on that. Tap water has chlorine/chloramine,
> > chlorine/chloramine will kill any bacteria it comes in
> > contact with. Filters should always be rinsed in tank
> > water or treated tap water.
>
>
> The OP is talking about a filter cartridge intended to be discarded and
> replaced on a regular basis. In other words, mechanical/chemical
> filtration, not biological. Some biofiltering bacteria will get
> established on that medium of course, but it will likewise be on every
> other surface in the tank. Even if a brief rinsing is killing the
> biofilter capabilities of the discardable cartridge, the rest of the
> tank should have a well-established biofilter, and the effect shouldn't
> be more extreme than just dropping in a new cartridge.
>
> Now, for removing gunk from media intended primarily as bio-filtration,
> absolutely it should be cleaned in non-chlorinated water.
>
> --
> www.ericschreiber.com

Additionally, a lot of other variables play into the outcome, ie:
Is there live plants?
Is the ratio of plants to fish high?
Is the fish-load high?
Is there another filter, or other media not being cleaned?
Is there a lot of chlorine in the water being used to wash the filter?
etc...
NetMax

[NetMax]

Something is not right. Your water should not be cloudy, ever. It will
get cloudy when one of several things goes wrong. Green cloudy is an
algae spore. White or grey cloudy is particulates or bacterial bloom.
For particulates, you need more filtration and/or gravel vacuuming. For
a bacterial bloom, you need to find out what is causing the bacteria
die-off (your water is cloudy with dead bacteria). Typical causes are
the existing nitrifying bacteria were wiped out, so you get a new growth
which grows to the overshot nutrient levels and then runs out of food and
dies, and new bacteria multiply to eat the now dead bacteria, and then
they die when they run out of food, causing some to multiply as they eat
their dead neighbours, and so on and so on, like a see-saw which swings
less each time.

Flocculants are really only needed when the in-laws are coming over, and
you need clear water in a hurry. They address a symptom and do nothing
to correct the problem, so the root cause will just repeat itself. You
might be missing the ammonia spike, as it would occur before the fish
died, and probably be zero for when they did die (delayed reaction).

I've never owned, used or even handled a TopFin filter, but from your
description, it doesn't sound very good (single proprietary cartridge
which causes you to lose your bio-filter when changing your chem-filter).
Perhaps other posters can chime in to comment on how good or bad these
filters are from the standpoint of biological filtration. I've had a few
customers who complained of cloudy water. They had these single
cartridge filters as well, (at least from their description), coming from
a big-box store's cheap starter kit, and they were buying flocculants as
well. I usually sent them home with an AquaClear filter and the 2
sponge trick, and instructions on how to cross-seed their new filter. I
think an AC150 is rated for a 30g, and with double sponges, it's
biological capacity will be even higher. A Penguin 125 would do very
nicely as well, or even a Fluval 104 (just depends on your budget). Most
people will tell you to overfilter your tank. Just keep the TopFin as a
spare or for a quarantine tank.

Otherwise, don't know what to suggest. Your water change routine sounds
fine. Use de-chlor as applicable. The only clue is cloudy water which
would be cleared up with more & better filtration, imo.

NetMax

"Brian" > wrote in message
...
> Hi. My 20 gal tank is 7 months old, as are all the fish. The filter
is a
> TopFin 20 which is a fibre sack containing a frame and carbon. I rinse
the
> filter every couple weeks and change it completely every 4-6 weeks. I
> tested the water right after the 3 fish died and pH, NO2, NO3 and
ammonia
> were all OK. I test these every 2 weeks and have never had a problem.
> Every week I syphon off about 1/4 of the water, vacuuming the gravel at
the
> same time. I have used the clarifier 4 or 5 times during the last
couple of
> months because of water cloudiness. The clarifier worked quite well.
It's
> been about 24 hrs since the 3 lemon tetras died and all the other fish
seem
> to be OK. The water clarifier instructions say that it can be used on
a
> weekly basis. I have'nt used it that often.
>
> Brian
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >
> > "Brian" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I have a 20 gal tank with 3 orange tetras, 3 lemon tetras and 2
algae
> > > eaters. I noticed the water getting slightly turbid and proceeded
to
> > rinse
> > > off the filter, and I added some water clarifier (5mL). A couple
of
> > hours
> > > later the three lemon tetras were dead. The other fish were OK.
I've
> > > performed this procedure many times before without any problems.
Any
> > ideas?
> > > Thanks.
> >
> > There is insufficient information to make any educated guesses other
than
> > it was some type of water shock. You would need to provide age of
tank,
> > filter & your cleaning routine. Water clarifier is a flocculent.
You
> > sound like you are a regular user(?). Under normal circumstances you
> > should never need flocculants to keep water clear. What is your
tank's
> > pH and what is your water change routine (qty & interval), perhaps
there
> > would be some clues there.
> >
> > cheers
> > NetMax
> >
> >
>
>

[Dick]

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:14:09 +0100, Geezer From The Freezer
> wrote:

>
>
>Toni wrote:
>> "Dick" > wrote in message
>
>> > Toni, isn't that reaching a bit far? The filter was cleaned, not the
>> > water replaced. I always rinse my filters in tap water.
>>
>> That destroys your biological filter.
>
>Agree with Toni on that. Tap water has chlorine/chloramine, chlorine/chloramine
>will kill
>any bacteria it comes in contact with. Filters should always be rinsed in tank
>water
>or treated tap water.

I think you are talking theoretically. I am saying that as a
practical matter, I have 5 tanks and I never bother to use tank water
to clean the filters. I also replace 20% of my water each week,
straight from the tap only adjusted for temperature.

My tanks are clear, the fish healthy, the plants growing well, what
more should I care about?

If you have anecdotal report to share of disasters caused by rinsing
in tap water, that would be interesting.

[Mudbunny]

"NetMax" > wrote in message >...

> I've never owned, used or even handled a TopFin filter, but from your
> description, it doesn't sound very good (single proprietary cartridge
> which causes you to lose your bio-filter when changing your chem-filter).
> Perhaps other posters can chime in to comment on how good or bad these
> filters are from the standpoint of biological filtration. I've had a few
> customers who complained of cloudy water. They had these single
> cartridge filters as well, (at least from their description), coming from
> a big-box store's cheap starter kit, and they were buying flocculants as
> well.

Hey there. I am by no means an expert (having only had a 10 gallon for
a couple of months now) but we also bought the TopFin starter kit. We
have the small filter which uses the single cartridge.

So that we are on the same page, here are the instructions for
replacing the filter cartridge (paraphrased): Once a week, replace the
filter cartridge. Throw out the old filter and charcoal, rinse off the
plastic support, put the new filter on, put in the charcoal, rinse the
dust off the outside, and put it back in the slot.

Like the OP, I also had cloudy water. What I ended up doing, after
reading various posts and threads in here, and following some of the
advice given to others, was the following:

1 - I am completely ignoring the once a week filter change
instruction. I change it when I can start to smell it when I am
feeding my fish. This ends up being about once a monnth or so.

2 - I am a bit more aggressive when it comes to water changes. About
once a week, I do about 20 % water changes.

3 - When I replace the filter, I put the old filter behind the new one
(a bit tricky to do, but can be done) and allow it to sit there for
about a week with the water filtering through both of them. I rinse
out the old one with tap water first and then just slide it in at the
same time as the other. If you find that the flow ends up being too
slow and you get backwash, what you could do (although I have never
had to) is to cut the filter in half and slide half of it behind the
old filter.

Since doing the above, the only time my water gets cloudy is when I am
doing water changes and am disturbing the gravel.

Marcel

[NetMax]

"Mudbunny" > wrote in message
om...
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>...
>
> > I've never owned, used or even handled a TopFin filter, but from your
> > description, it doesn't sound very good (single proprietary cartridge
> > which causes you to lose your bio-filter when changing your
chem-filter).
> > Perhaps other posters can chime in to comment on how good or bad
these
> > filters are from the standpoint of biological filtration. I've had a
few
> > customers who complained of cloudy water. They had these single
> > cartridge filters as well, (at least from their description), coming
from
> > a big-box store's cheap starter kit, and they were buying flocculants
as
> > well.
>
> Hey there. I am by no means an expert (having only had a 10 gallon for
> a couple of months now) but we also bought the TopFin starter kit. We
> have the small filter which uses the single cartridge.
>
> So that we are on the same page, here are the instructions for
> replacing the filter cartridge (paraphrased): Once a week, replace the
> filter cartridge. Throw out the old filter and charcoal, rinse off the
> plastic support, put the new filter on, put in the charcoal, rinse the
> dust off the outside, and put it back in the slot.
>
> Like the OP, I also had cloudy water. What I ended up doing, after
> reading various posts and threads in here, and following some of the
> advice given to others, was the following:
>
> 1 - I am completely ignoring the once a week filter change
> instruction. I change it when I can start to smell it when I am
> feeding my fish. This ends up being about once a monnth or so.
>
> 2 - I am a bit more aggressive when it comes to water changes. About
> once a week, I do about 20 % water changes.
>
> 3 - When I replace the filter, I put the old filter behind the new one
> (a bit tricky to do, but can be done) and allow it to sit there for
> about a week with the water filtering through both of them. I rinse
> out the old one with tap water first and then just slide it in at the
> same time as the other. If you find that the flow ends up being too
> slow and you get backwash, what you could do (although I have never
> had to) is to cut the filter in half and slide half of it behind the
> old filter.
>
> Since doing the above, the only time my water gets cloudy is when I am
> doing water changes and am disturbing the gravel.
>
> Marcel

Sounds like very good advice. I forgot to mention the trick of folding
the old cartridge and placing it behind the new one for a couple of
weeks. I've mentioned this to customers, but I never know if it's even
possible to do, depending on the design of their particular filter.
There is another poster here, who once gave us instructions on how to sew
a flap on the cartridge, so you could periodically only change the
carbon.

NetMax

[Mudbunny]

"NetMax" > wrote in message >...

> Sounds like very good advice. I forgot to mention the trick of folding
> the old cartridge and placing it behind the new one for a couple of
> weeks. I've mentioned this to customers, but I never know if it's even
> possible to do, depending on the design of their particular filter.
> There is another poster here, who once gave us instructions on how to sew
> a flap on the cartridge, so you could periodically only change the
> carbon.

It wouldn't be too hard on these pouches. You could just turn it
upside down and shake it to get most of the charcoal out. Maybe rinse
it to encourage it.

For the sewing option, I can see cutting it in half so that it is
joined only buy the bottom. Then you just unfold and dump. TO put it
back together, just some thread up the sides, maybe some really thin
velcro...

Marcel