pH Levels.

[Jaden]

Hi Folks,
I'm a newbie to the pastime, so please, bear with me.

Setup:

Jewel 120L tank. (28G?)
Standard Filter. particulate filter cleaned/replaced every week. Others
as per recommended schedule (Activated filter changed once, others
untouched.)
Standard Lights - On for 5-6 hours a day.
2 Inches of gravel, washed and boiled.
Well-ish planted. Some grasses and a couple of Amazon Swords.
6 Inch Airstone, on for ~90 minutes a day.
Temperature - 78f.
Hard water area, pH from tap 7.1 - 7.2

Tank ran for 35 days to cycle it, with no fish.
NH3 - Nil.
NO2 - Nil.
NO3 - 5 ppm.

Tank is not in direct sunlight, but in a south facing room.
I have had 6 Zebra Danios for 3 days, tank is now in day 38.


Issue:

My tank pH seems to settle at about 7.5 - 7.7. I have treated it
previously with a pH down (Aquafin) solution - making it 7.2 or so, but
the next day, it will climb again. I don't think this is the end of the
world, but in the long run I want this to be a community tank, Danios,
Guppies, Tetras and a bottom feeder or two. I have been told that a pH
of in or around 7.0 is desirable for this.

I thought it was the Airstone (I had it on for over 12 Hours a day, but
have dropped it's use considerably).

Any idea why my pH is doing this, or am I just being a Donkey?

Any help at all appreciated.
Rob.

[swarvegorilla]

if the fish seem alright at 7.7 then I wouldn't worry about it
maybe check the tank for clacium sources but aside from that you should be
ok with most community species
may not get lots of breeding but from local shops they should be
acclimatised at least.
WHats the ph straight from your tap?



"Jaden" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Folks,
> I'm a newbie to the pastime, so please, bear with me.
>
> Setup:
>
> Jewel 120L tank. (28G?)
> Standard Filter. particulate filter cleaned/replaced every week. Others
> as per recommended schedule (Activated filter changed once, others
> untouched.)
> Standard Lights - On for 5-6 hours a day.
> 2 Inches of gravel, washed and boiled.
> Well-ish planted. Some grasses and a couple of Amazon Swords.
> 6 Inch Airstone, on for ~90 minutes a day.
> Temperature - 78f.
> Hard water area, pH from tap 7.1 - 7.2
>
> Tank ran for 35 days to cycle it, with no fish.
> NH3 - Nil.
> NO2 - Nil.
> NO3 - 5 ppm.
>
> Tank is not in direct sunlight, but in a south facing room.
> I have had 6 Zebra Danios for 3 days, tank is now in day 38.
>
>
> Issue:
>
> My tank pH seems to settle at about 7.5 - 7.7. I have treated it
> previously with a pH down (Aquafin) solution - making it 7.2 or so, but
> the next day, it will climb again. I don't think this is the end of the
> world, but in the long run I want this to be a community tank, Danios,
> Guppies, Tetras and a bottom feeder or two. I have been told that a pH
> of in or around 7.0 is desirable for this.
>
> I thought it was the Airstone (I had it on for over 12 Hours a day, but
> have dropped it's use considerably).
>
> Any idea why my pH is doing this, or am I just being a Donkey?
>
> Any help at all appreciated.
> Rob.

[Jaden]

swarvegorilla wrote:
> if the fish seem alright at 7.7 then I wouldn't worry about it
> maybe check the tank for clacium sources but aside from that you should be
> ok with most community species
> may not get lots of breeding but from local shops they should be
> acclimatised at least.

Thanks for the reply. I must check for calcium sources, that's a good
lead. There are two rocks bought from the pet shop, they are yellow in
colour, and they could very well be sandstone of a porous type. I
discarded these as they came from the shop, I may well revisit this
assumption.

The pH in the shop was 7.2, so I lowered mine before introducing fish.
It is climbing, but I read that it can take several applications to
stabilize pH using the adjust solution. If I get it stable at halfway
(7.4) I'd be happy. My main concern is for the fish I have now. I'm sure
even small fluctuations in pH are to be avoided if at all possible.

Fish seem very happy, quite active, and feed with gusto once a day. Do
Danios eat algae? Mine seems to have disappeared since I put fish into
the tank.

> WHats the ph straight from your tap?


pH from tap 7.1 - 7.2. This is the bit that confuses me, there must be a
base material altering the pH in the tank.

Thanks again.

[Larry Blanchard]

Jaden wrote:

>
> Jewel 120L tank. (28G?)
> Standard Filter. particulate filter cleaned/replaced every week. Others
> as per recommended schedule (Activated filter changed once, others
> untouched.)
> Standard Lights - On for 5-6 hours a day.
> 2 Inches of gravel, washed and boiled.
> Well-ish planted. Some grasses and a couple of Amazon Swords.
> 6 Inch Airstone, on for ~90 minutes a day.
> Temperature - 78f.
> Hard water area, pH from tap 7.1 - 7.2
>
I wouldn't worry about the Ph if the fish are doing well. I would worry about
the plants with only 5-6 hours of "standard" light. Twelve hours a day of 2
watts per gallon is more the norm for planted tanks.

Either run the airstone all the time, or at least all night, or forget about
it. Ninety minutes doesn't do much.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

[swarvegorilla]

"Diorite" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Jaden >
> wrote:
>
>> swarvegorilla wrote:
>> > if the fish seem alright at 7.7 then I wouldn't worry about it
>> > maybe check the tank for clacium sources but aside from that you should
>> > be
>> > ok with most community species
>> > may not get lots of breeding but from local shops they should be
>> > acclimatised at least.
>
>> Thanks for the reply. I must check for calcium sources, that's a good
>> lead. There are two rocks bought from the pet shop, they are yellow in
>> colour, and they could very well be sandstone of a porous type. I
>> discarded these as they came from the shop, I may well revisit this
>> assumption.
>
>> The pH in the shop was 7.2, so I lowered mine before introducing fish.
>> It is climbing, but I read that it can take several applications to
>> stabilize pH using the adjust solution. If I get it stable at halfway
>> (7.4) I'd be happy. My main concern is for the fish I have now. I'm sure
>> even small fluctuations in pH are to be avoided if at all possible.
>
>> Fish seem very happy, quite active, and feed with gusto once a day. Do
>> Danios eat algae? Mine seems to have disappeared since I put fish into
>> the tank.
>
>> > WHats the ph straight from your tap?
>
>> pH from tap 7.1 - 7.2. This is the bit that confuses me, there must be a
>> base material altering the pH in the tank.
>
> Maybe and maybe not. Try letting a glass of tap water sit overnight. You
> may have dissolved CO2 or other gasses in your tap water that can alter
> your pH until they disperse. Managing your tank's water chemistry can be
> surprisingly complex. Since your fish are happy it is probably best to
> just live with it while you get good at the basics of fish keeping.
>

Yep I would have to agree.
By far the cheapest lesson I ever kept was to keep mostly fish that do well
in the water I have on hand.
My water is 7.4 out of the tap, which lets me kept fish like african
cichlids, breed them too.
I add salts and buffers to increase their colours and hopefully trigger
spawns.
But I can also keep discus, tetras, livebearers, south americans, killies
and whatever else.
Getting nice spawns and non fungused eggs requires more water preparation.
But....
I find that if I just keep up my water changes, my fish tank water stays
very similar to that of my tapwater. Less chlorine of course but aside from
that..
IF the **** hit the fan. My water quality went downhill hard. THEN I could
do a 90% water change (heat the water up to right temp first and
dechlorinate) and the shock to the fish (ph and everything else) would be
minimal.
May not sound like a big thing but being able to do large on the spot water
changes in an emergency is a big thing
something you shouldn't do just for the hell of it
but if you don't have to mess with ph it helps.
If your fish are doing well
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
Sorry for the perhaps cryptic brevity of my first post.
I travel from this spot to other spots.
sometimes these movements are rushed and chaotic
You got what I meant though, the rocks may be a type of limestone
Anyway I think your best bet is to check out a few internet sites and have a
read on the nitrate cycle.
The short of it is that you can use filter material like coarse sponge (and
other types if ya like) that you rinse in some water from your fish tank
whenever it gets clogged.
You need to keep alive the bacteria on your filter sponges.
There is also no point growing good colonys if your going to replace the
filter media all the time.
Your plants need more light and think of upgrades for the air pump....
although if it's noisy nyea
A good way of slowly lowering your ph would be to use it as a peat filter.
Basically stuff an old 'plaform' corner filter with peat and plug your air
pump into it.
Will make your water coloured like coke
but it will drop your ph, do a google on it if your interested. Many killi
peeps use them
heres a couple of sites that may help ya out a bit
http://www.tropicalresources.net/phpBB2/articles.php *
http://users.adelphia.net/%7Edpeters95/ffd/info.htm *
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?dept_id=0&siteid=6&acatid=266&aid=652 *
It's a strange hobby, takes a while before you realise which things you need
to focus on doing well to succeed in it.
1 Filter the water mechanically, biologically and chemically
2 Dilute the wastes with water changes
3 Match temperature, food, fish, decor and tank size.
the rest of it, is as they say 'gravy'
:-)
Don

[Jaden]

*Snipped to save the poor dial-up users*

I have a 2L bottle of tap water on my windowsill and I'll check to see
what happens in a day or two. pH test today revealed the pH is now
climbing more slowly, up to 7.4. I'm happy enough with that.

I should mention that the filter in the Jewel has 5 layers. One for
particulate, one activated one, and three for organic filtering. I will
only ever rinse these in aquarium water, and never all together. The
particulate filter I clean 2 twice a week, and replace every fortnight.
The activated one I replace monthly, or sooner if Nitrate level indicate
it needs it.

Once again, thanks to everyone who took the time to help a n00b. Greatly
appreciated.

Rob.

[dc]

Jaden > wrote in :

> Hard water area, pH from tap 7.1 - 7.2
....
> My tank pH seems to settle at about 7.5 - 7.7. I have treated it
> previously with a pH down (Aquafin) solution - making it 7.2 or so, but
> the next day, it will climb again. I don't think this is the end of the

I wouldn't concern yourself with your pH too much.

But since you asked, your water likely contains high quantities of
carbonate, probably calcium carbonate, as hard water sources often do.
Carbonate is an alkali and will neutralize acids such as pH down leading to
pH rebound after dosing.

If you want to lower your pH (again, I wouldn't worry about it in most
circumstances) you will have to use an acidifier that will neutralize your
carbonate levels. Seachem makes a product called Acid Buffer which will
convert carbonates into carbon dioxide. It is one of the easiest way to
lower pH in hard water environments without resorting to something like
reverse osmosis water.

[dc]

"swarvegorilla" > wrote in
u:

> maybe check the tank for clacium sources but aside from that you

Calcium is not directly related to basic water conditions, but carbonates
are. The most common carbonate in water is calcium carbonate, but it is
not the same as free calcium.

[Jaden]

> Calcium is not directly related to basic water conditions, but carbonates
> are. The most common carbonate in water is calcium carbonate, but it is
> not the same as free calcium.

As as matter of fact, I live in a very hard water area. I think I've
found my problem (such as it is). I'll buy an acid buffer this evening.

Thanks a million.

Rob.

[swarvegorilla]

"Jaden" > wrote in message
...
> *Snipped to save the poor dial-up users*
>
> I have a 2L bottle of tap water on my windowsill and I'll check to see
> what happens in a day or two. pH test today revealed the pH is now
> climbing more slowly, up to 7.4. I'm happy enough with that.
>
> I should mention that the filter in the Jewel has 5 layers. One for
> particulate, one activated one, and three for organic filtering. I will
> only ever rinse these in aquarium water, and never all together. The
> particulate filter I clean 2 twice a week, and replace every fortnight.
> The activated one I replace monthly, or sooner if Nitrate level indicate
> it needs it.
>
> Once again, thanks to everyone who took the time to help a n00b. Greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Rob.

Anytime mate.
We all been there at one stage.
:)

[swarvegorilla]

"dc" > wrote in message
...
> "swarvegorilla" > wrote in
> u:
>
>> maybe check the tank for clacium sources but aside from that you
>
> Calcium is not directly related to basic water conditions, but carbonates
> are. The most common carbonate in water is calcium carbonate, but it is
> not the same as free calcium.

Yea I know but shells, limestone, marble, concrete.... they all raise your
ph.... well if it low anyway.
or something
I tell ya the more I learn about kh and gh and ph and co2 levels the more I
wish I didn't know.
:-)
Losing sleep here over de-gassing and the like
I had to get into planted tanks to use up all the obscure test reagents in
me multi test cases.
best thing you can ever do with any test kits by the way is record the
results.
It all makes a lot more sense when you can flip thru results.
or maybe my memory is just shot.
either way tank journals make nice souveniers.

[dc]

Jaden > wrote in :

> As as matter of fact, I live in a very hard water area. I think I've
> found my problem (such as it is). I'll buy an acid buffer this
> evening.

Just be careful using it. Do not over dose. Try to drop your KH gradually
over the course of a week or so. Dose with Acid Buffer maybe three times a
day many hours apart. Too much carbon dioxide in the water will reverse the
oxygen affinity of hemoglobin and basically asphyxiate fish.

[[email protected]]

A better (and much cheaper) way of decreasing your KH (carbonate
hardness, which is what's driving your pH up) is to mix your tap water
with water with lower KH, such as water from a reverse osmosis (R/O)
unit. You can purchase a unit of your own (look online) or buy R/O
water at your supermarket. The former is much cheaper in cost/gallon
but requires more work. Either method will be cheaper than using acid,
unless you're formulating your own acid. The determining factor should
be how much water you'll go through in water changes. Keep in mind that
pH is a logarithmic scale.

Jaden wrote:
> > Calcium is not directly related to basic water conditions, but carbonates
> > are. The most common carbonate in water is calcium carbonate, but it is
> > not the same as free calcium.
>
> As as matter of fact, I live in a very hard water area. I think I've
> found my problem (such as it is). I'll buy an acid buffer this evening.
>
> Thanks a million.
>
> Rob.

[swarvegorilla]

good call
diluted R/O water could indeed be the go



> wrote in message
oups.com...
>A better (and much cheaper) way of decreasing your KH (carbonate
> hardness, which is what's driving your pH up) is to mix your tap water
> with water with lower KH, such as water from a reverse osmosis (R/O)
> unit. You can purchase a unit of your own (look online) or buy R/O
> water at your supermarket. The former is much cheaper in cost/gallon
> but requires more work. Either method will be cheaper than using acid,
> unless you're formulating your own acid. The determining factor should
> be how much water you'll go through in water changes. Keep in mind that
> pH is a logarithmic scale.
>
> Jaden wrote:
>> > Calcium is not directly related to basic water conditions, but
>> > carbonates
>> > are. The most common carbonate in water is calcium carbonate, but it
>> > is
>> > not the same as free calcium.
>>
>> As as matter of fact, I live in a very hard water area. I think I've
>> found my problem (such as it is). I'll buy an acid buffer this evening.
>>
>> Thanks a million.
>>
>> Rob.
>

[dc]

" > wrote in
oups.com:

> A better (and much cheaper) way of decreasing your KH (carbonate
> hardness, which is what's driving your pH up) is to mix your tap water
> with water with lower KH, such as water from a reverse osmosis (R/O)

R/O will also address your general hardness where Acid Buffer will only
affect your pH and carbonate hardness.

Keep in mind that some of the fish the original poster is keeping are hard
water fish (guppies) and while they may not be from environments as extreme
as the rift lakes of Africa, playing with the hardness and pH may still be
completely unnecessary to begin with. Many fish are adaptable enough to
survive in the conditions his natural tap water provides and for guppies it
is pretty well right in their ideal comfort zone.

Unless the original poster is planning to go Amazonian he may in fact be
reducing the comfort level of his fish by trying to lower his pH and
hardness.

[[email protected]]

True enough.

dc wrote:
> Keep in mind that some of the fish the original poster is keeping are hard
> water fish (guppies) and while they may not be from environments as extreme
> as the rift lakes of Africa, playing with the hardness and pH may still be
> completely unnecessary to begin with. Many fish are adaptable enough to
> survive in the conditions his natural tap water provides and for guppies it
> is pretty well right in their ideal comfort zone.
>
> Unless the original poster is planning to go Amazonian he may in fact be
> reducing the comfort level of his fish by trying to lower his pH and
> hardness.