Is this mix of fish ok?

[Mary E. Hill]

I just lost a couple of orange gouramis - the LFS found nothing out of the
ordinary with a water test, by the way and the other fish seem fine - and I
am thinking of adding these:

1 male betta fish
2 blue gouramis

to a 12 gallon tank which already contains:

1 cory
2 black tetras
3 african dwarf frogs

Yes or no? Guide me... (I'm asking *before* I buy this time - I'm learning).
Is my tank too small for these choices?

Thanks,
Mary

[Charles]

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 16:19:28 -0400, "Mary E. Hill"
> wrote:

>I just lost a couple of orange gouramis - the LFS found nothing out of the
>ordinary with a water test, by the way and the other fish seem fine - and I
>am thinking of adding these:
>
>1 male betta fish
>2 blue gouramis
>
>to a 12 gallon tank which already contains:
>
>1 cory
>2 black tetras
>3 african dwarf frogs
>
>Yes or no? Guide me... (I'm asking *before* I buy this time - I'm learning).
>Is my tank too small for these choices?
>
>Thanks,
> Mary
>


Too small tank, and gouramies are not as peaceful as people believe.
I think the blue are the worst in this regard.


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[Sue]

Yes to the Betta.
No to the blue gouramis -they would not be compatable and your tank is too
small for them.
What were the orange gouramis? Honey dwarfs?
Sue

[Mary]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> Yes to the Betta.
> No to the blue gouramis -they would not be compatable and your tank is
too
> small for them.
> What were the orange gouramis? Honey dwarfs?
> Sue
>
>

Thanks - that's what I'm hearing:) No to the blues.

As far as the orange is concerned, I hate to admit it, but I don't know....

[Mary]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Mary E. Hill" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I just lost a couple of orange gouramis - the LFS found nothing out of
> the
> > ordinary with a water test, by the way and the other fish seem fine -
> and I
> > am thinking of adding these:
> >
> > 1 male betta fish
> > 2 blue gouramis
> >
> > to a 12 gallon tank which already contains:
> >
> > 1 cory
> > 2 black tetras
> > 3 african dwarf frogs
> >
> > Yes or no? Guide me... (I'm asking *before* I buy this time - I'm
> learning).
> > Is my tank too small for these choices?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mary
> >
>
>
> I've found that Gouramis are more susceptible to fungus infections, so
> perhaps there was a cause there. Bettas, Paradisefish and Gouramis are
> sometimes a bad mix, being too similar (same family). It's like putting
> a mix of cichlids together (but not as bad). If territorial concerns
> come up, then a small tank doesn't give them much opportunity to give
> each other elbow (fin? ;~) room.
>
> Myself, I'd go with a couple more Corys, three more Black tetras, and
> then a well-behaved Betta (and maybe a couple of Ghost shrimp).
> --
> http://www.netmax.tk/
>

Wow - that seems like so many! I'll have to look up ghost shrimp - I've not
seen any. The other thought I had after the other posts was just to get two
bettas, one male - one female.

Thanks for the help:)

Mary

[Mary]

"Mary" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
<snip>
and
> > then a well-behaved Betta (and maybe a couple of Ghost shrimp).
> > --
> > http://www.netmax.tk/
> >
>
> Wow - that seems like so many! I'll have to look up ghost shrimp - I've
not
> seen any. The other thought I had after the other posts was just to get
two
> bettas, one male - one female.
>
> Thanks for the help:)
>
> Mary


OK - I looked up pics of ghost shrimp and I still haven't seen any! :)
Wonder how they get along with the frogs?
>

[Sue]

> Wow - that seems like so many! I'll have to look up ghost shrimp - I've
not
> seen any. The other thought I had after the other posts was just to get
two
> bettas, one male - one female.

Just have one Betta in a tank that size. Males will often kill or harass
females when kept with them.

I agree two more Cories as they are happier in shoals & the same goes for
the black tetras.

I don't like mixing shrimps & fish ( unless its on a plate ;o) but I don't
like frogs in with fish either.

Sue

[Mary E. Hill]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
>
> > Wow - that seems like so many! I'll have to look up ghost shrimp - I've
> not
> > seen any. The other thought I had after the other posts was just to get
> two
> > bettas, one male - one female.
>
> Just have one Betta in a tank that size. Males will often kill or harass
> females when kept with them.
>
> I agree two more Cories as they are happier in shoals & the same goes for
> the black tetras.
>
> I don't like mixing shrimps & fish ( unless its on a plate ;o) but I don't
> like frogs in with fish either.
>
> Sue
>

Just curious - why don't you like frogs w/fish? I can agree with that if
its the clawed frogs, but the ones I've got couldn't care less about the
fish & they live happily together...Is there something I don't know? (duh)

[Limnophile]

Dwarf frogs like you have are fine with small fish. They might be eaten by
large fish though.
I think Sue is talking about African Clawed frogs ( Xenopeus sp.) , which
are large enough to eat fish. I haven't tried dwarf frogs with shrimp in the
same aquarium though...

Limnophile

"Mary E. Hill" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sue" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > Wow - that seems like so many! I'll have to look up ghost shrimp -
I've
> > not
> > > seen any. The other thought I had after the other posts was just to
get
> > two
> > > bettas, one male - one female.
> >
> > Just have one Betta in a tank that size. Males will often kill or harass
> > females when kept with them.
> >
> > I agree two more Cories as they are happier in shoals & the same goes
for
> > the black tetras.
> >
> > I don't like mixing shrimps & fish ( unless its on a plate ;o) but I
don't
> > like frogs in with fish either.
> >
> > Sue
> >
>
> Just curious - why don't you like frogs w/fish? I can agree with that if
> its the clawed frogs, but the ones I've got couldn't care less about the
> fish & they live happily together...Is there something I don't know?
(duh)
>
>

[Mary E. Hill]

"Limnophile" > wrote in message
...
> Dwarf frogs like you have are fine with small fish. They might be eaten by
> large fish though.
> I think Sue is talking about African Clawed frogs ( Xenopeus sp.) , which
> are large enough to eat fish. I haven't tried dwarf frogs with shrimp in
the
> same aquarium though...
>
> Limnophile
>
> "Mary E. Hill" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Sue" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > Wow - that seems like so many! I'll have to look up ghost shrimp -
> I've
> > > not
> > > > seen any. The other thought I had after the other posts was just to
> get
> > > two
> > > > bettas, one male - one female.
> > >
> > > Just have one Betta in a tank that size. Males will often kill or
harass
> > > females when kept with them.
> > >
> > > I agree two more Cories as they are happier in shoals & the same goes
> for
> > > the black tetras.
> > >
> > > I don't like mixing shrimps & fish ( unless its on a plate ;o) but I
> don't
> > > like frogs in with fish either.
> > >
> > > Sue
> > >
> >
> > Just curious - why don't you like frogs w/fish? I can agree with that
if
> > its the clawed frogs, but the ones I've got couldn't care less about the
> > fish & they live happily together...Is there something I don't know?
> (duh)
> >
> >

Yeah, the thought makes me a bit nervous. Maybe NetMax has an idea of their
interaction.

[NetMax]

"Mary E. Hill" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Limnophile" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Dwarf frogs like you have are fine with small fish. They might be
eaten by
> > large fish though.
> > I think Sue is talking about African Clawed frogs ( Xenopeus sp.) ,
which
> > are large enough to eat fish. I haven't tried dwarf frogs with shrimp
in
> the
> > same aquarium though...
> >
> > Limnophile
> >
> > "Mary E. Hill" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Sue" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > > Wow - that seems like so many! I'll have to look up ghost
shrimp -
> > I've
> > > > not
> > > > > seen any. The other thought I had after the other posts was
just to
> > get
> > > > two
> > > > > bettas, one male - one female.
> > > >
> > > > Just have one Betta in a tank that size. Males will often kill or
> harass
> > > > females when kept with them.
> > > >
> > > > I agree two more Cories as they are happier in shoals & the same
goes
> > for
> > > > the black tetras.
> > > >
> > > > I don't like mixing shrimps & fish ( unless its on a plate ;o)
but I
> > don't
> > > > like frogs in with fish either.
> > > >
> > > > Sue
> > > >
> > >
> > > Just curious - why don't you like frogs w/fish? I can agree with
that
> if
> > > its the clawed frogs, but the ones I've got couldn't care less
about the
> > > fish & they live happily together...Is there something I don't
know?
> > (duh)
> > >
> > >
>
> Yeah, the thought makes me a bit nervous. Maybe NetMax has an idea of
their
> interaction.


I was definitely thinking about the African Dwarf frogs, as these are
quite tame. Ghost shrimp get almost as big as the frogs, so I don't
think predation is an issue if they are similar sizes. The shrimps can a
lso spend much more time in the water column or resting on leaves, so
they won't interact with the frog too much (I'm presuming a planted
tank). Ghost shrimp can be purchased as feeder shrimp (cheap!) so if a
few disappear, it's no biggie. Some folks buy Amano shrimp, but these
are expensive. The shrimp don't present a significant bio-load to your
small tank, and are scavengers (bottom-feeders) and not predacious.

Shrimp and frogs are potential food items to a carnivorous Betta, but
most of these cup-raised Bettas don't know their lineage, so 95% of the
time, they co-exist well. They also have similar dietary demands
(bloodworms :~). I would not recommend adding a female Betta to the mix,
as your tank is small enough for it to not work out, and I think you
mentioned that you didn't have another tank. Females are also as
carnivorous as the males (if not more so, having more time to scour the
tank while the male spends time posturing ;~).

A male Betta + female Betta, in a small tank, usually results in one of
the following scenarios:
1) female is not interested in the advances and gets killed
2) female is interested but not ready, and gets killed
3) male is not interested in spawning, and gets killed
4) female is actually a juvenile male, and gets killed
5) they spawn, male takes over nest, female gets killed
6) they have no interest in each other

In a larger tank, with several females, the situation becomes more
normalized. Just my limited observations though.

Also note, that on the tetra scale of aggression, Black tetras are up
there. They might make a nuisance of themselves with a Betta or with
very small shrimp. Adding more Black tetras to the mix often helps
contain any aggression. It's all an experiment :o)

It might seem like a lot of fish/creatures, but 3 are air-breathers
(frogs) and 4 have auxiliary air breathing capacity (Betta and Corys).
They layer nicely in the tank, with the bulk of the population (on the
substrate) being non-territorial. I think that it would be an
entertaining mixture, if there weren't significant size differences
between them to cause too much trouble. Some type of leaf cover to
provide a roof for the bottom-feeders would be nice too (Anubius, some
Crypts, chain Swords etc).

I often mix shrimps (Bumblebee, Cherry, Amano & Ghost) with smallish to
very small fish. From memory, I have Amano shrimp with Neons, and also
with ADF, newts and paradisefish, Ghost shrimp with Glass catfish and
Brown eels, and Cherry shrimps with AD frogs, Malabar puffers and Clarias
catfish. hth
--
http://www.netmax.tk/

[Mary E. Hill]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Mary E. Hill" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Limnophile" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Dwarf frogs like you have are fine with small fish. They might be
> eaten by
> > > large fish though.
> > > I think Sue is talking about African Clawed frogs ( Xenopeus sp.) ,
> which
> > > are large enough to eat fish. I haven't tried dwarf frogs with shrimp
> in
> > the
> > > same aquarium though...
> > >
> > > Limnophile
> > >
> > > "Mary E. Hill" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Sue" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > > Wow - that seems like so many! I'll have to look up ghost
> shrimp -
> > > I've
> > > > > not
> > > > > > seen any. The other thought I had after the other posts was
> just to
> > > get
> > > > > two
> > > > > > bettas, one male - one female.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just have one Betta in a tank that size. Males will often kill or
> > harass
> > > > > females when kept with them.
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree two more Cories as they are happier in shoals & the same
> goes
> > > for
> > > > > the black tetras.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't like mixing shrimps & fish ( unless its on a plate ;o)
> but I
> > > don't
> > > > > like frogs in with fish either.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sue
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Just curious - why don't you like frogs w/fish? I can agree with
> that
> > if
> > > > its the clawed frogs, but the ones I've got couldn't care less
> about the
> > > > fish & they live happily together...Is there something I don't
> know?
> > > (duh)
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > Yeah, the thought makes me a bit nervous. Maybe NetMax has an idea of
> their
> > interaction.
>
>
> I was definitely thinking about the African Dwarf frogs, as these are
> quite tame. Ghost shrimp get almost as big as the frogs, so I don't
> think predation is an issue if they are similar sizes. The shrimps can a
> lso spend much more time in the water column or resting on leaves, so
> they won't interact with the frog too much (I'm presuming a planted
> tank). Ghost shrimp can be purchased as feeder shrimp (cheap!) so if a
> few disappear, it's no biggie. Some folks buy Amano shrimp, but these
> are expensive. The shrimp don't present a significant bio-load to your
> small tank, and are scavengers (bottom-feeders) and not predacious.
>
> Shrimp and frogs are potential food items to a carnivorous Betta, but
> most of these cup-raised Bettas don't know their lineage, so 95% of the
> time, they co-exist well. They also have similar dietary demands
> (bloodworms :~). I would not recommend adding a female Betta to the mix,
> as your tank is small enough for it to not work out, and I think you
> mentioned that you didn't have another tank. Females are also as
> carnivorous as the males (if not more so, having more time to scour the
> tank while the male spends time posturing ;~).
>
> A male Betta + female Betta, in a small tank, usually results in one of
> the following scenarios:
> 1) female is not interested in the advances and gets killed
> 2) female is interested but not ready, and gets killed
> 3) male is not interested in spawning, and gets killed
> 4) female is actually a juvenile male, and gets killed
> 5) they spawn, male takes over nest, female gets killed
> 6) they have no interest in each other
>
> In a larger tank, with several females, the situation becomes more
> normalized. Just my limited observations though.
>
> Also note, that on the tetra scale of aggression, Black tetras are up
> there. They might make a nuisance of themselves with a Betta or with
> very small shrimp. Adding more Black tetras to the mix often helps
> contain any aggression. It's all an experiment :o)
>
> It might seem like a lot of fish/creatures, but 3 are air-breathers
> (frogs) and 4 have auxiliary air breathing capacity (Betta and Corys).
> They layer nicely in the tank, with the bulk of the population (on the
> substrate) being non-territorial. I think that it would be an
> entertaining mixture, if there weren't significant size differences
> between them to cause too much trouble. Some type of leaf cover to
> provide a roof for the bottom-feeders would be nice too (Anubius, some
> Crypts, chain Swords etc).
>
> I often mix shrimps (Bumblebee, Cherry, Amano & Ghost) with smallish to
> very small fish. From memory, I have Amano shrimp with Neons, and also
> with ADF, newts and paradisefish, Ghost shrimp with Glass catfish and
> Brown eels, and Cherry shrimps with AD frogs, Malabar puffers and Clarias
> catfish. hth
> --
> http://www.netmax.tk/
>

Wonderful, wonderful information. I so appreciate it. I also think this
would be a great mixture and enjoyable because of the varieties and types
included. This'll be the plan then.

I already have visions of moving this tank to my office someday and getting
a bigger one for home. I can't believe how I've taken to this after not
having any interest whatsoever for my first 30 years;) Strange.

Thanks much!

[Chris Palma]

This newsgroup is a good resource for newbie questions, and one that I
haven't seen addressed since I've been participating (not all that
long...) is about best practices for keeping Bettas.

I know that there are mixed emotions and opinions about keeping bettas in
cups / vases, etc. etc. etc., is there a good FAQ or article somewhere
that summarizes both sides of the argument about cup raised bettas?

I'm not thinking about adding one to my community or starting a new
aquarium for one, just looking to read up on these fish and find out more
about why they are sold in a different manner than most other tropical
fish.

Thanks!

--chris


On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, NetMax wrote:

> A male Betta + female Betta, in a small tank, usually results in one of
> the following scenarios:
> 1) female is not interested in the advances and gets killed
> 2) female is interested but not ready, and gets killed
> 3) male is not interested in spawning, and gets killed
> 4) female is actually a juvenile male, and gets killed
> 5) they spawn, male takes over nest, female gets killed
> 6) they have no interest in each other
>
> In a larger tank, with several females, the situation becomes more
> normalized. Just my limited observations though.
>

[RedForeman ©®]

> This newsgroup is a good resource for newbie questions, and one that I
> haven't seen addressed since I've been participating (not all that
> long...) is about best practices for keeping Bettas.
>
> I know that there are mixed emotions and opinions about keeping
> bettas in cups / vases, etc. etc. etc., is there a good FAQ or
> article somewhere that summarizes both sides of the argument about
> cup raised bettas?
>
> I'm not thinking about adding one to my community or starting a new
> aquarium for one, just looking to read up on these fish and find out
> more about why they are sold in a different manner than most other
> tropical fish.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --chris

www.bettatalk.com is a great place for the beginning info on bettas... not
sure if Faith addresses the cup issue, it's mostly for simple display... but
Faith believes that they need more than a cup to be happy, and like NetMax
has developed her own design to house like 400 or so in a small room... look
at her fishroom.. pretty nice setup....

www.bettaddict.com the new one that just got posted several days ago.. new,
can't help you there..
--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø


is that better??

[Slimer]

Sorry for joining this discussion so late, but I have several comments
to make regarding the previous posts. These comments are from my
experiences with freshwater mixes over the past 15 years.

Ghost shrimp - This will be food for your frogs. I wouldn't waste my
money on them.
Gourami's - While they are pretty fish and very peaceful to watch,
they do create several problems. The blue and orange don't get very
large, but would certainly be too much for a 12 gallon tank. They are
also very suseptible to disease. I've tried to keep these several
times and they've always ended up with problems eventually.
Cory's - These are wonderful.

I wouldn't suggest adding anything else to your 12 gallon tank. While
it may not seem like you have a lot in there now, there really is. If
you want to increase the number of fish, you should first consider
investing in a larger tank. I would suggest upgrading to at least a
40 or 55 gallon tank. The pleasure gained from these sizes are much
easier gained than a smaller tank. In the smaller tanks, it is much
easier for disease and bad things to happen quickly. With the larger
volume of water, disease and problems will not spread as quickly and
water changes will not need to happen as often.

[Mary E. Hill]

"Slimer" > wrote in message
om...
> Sorry for joining this discussion so late, but I have several comments
> to make regarding the previous posts. These comments are from my
> experiences with freshwater mixes over the past 15 years.
>
> Ghost shrimp - This will be food for your frogs. I wouldn't waste my
> money on them.
> Gourami's - While they are pretty fish and very peaceful to watch,
> they do create several problems. The blue and orange don't get very
> large, but would certainly be too much for a 12 gallon tank. They are
> also very suseptible to disease. I've tried to keep these several
> times and they've always ended up with problems eventually.
> Cory's - These are wonderful.
>
> I wouldn't suggest adding anything else to your 12 gallon tank. While
> it may not seem like you have a lot in there now, there really is. If
> you want to increase the number of fish, you should first consider
> investing in a larger tank.

<snip>
Actually, I only have one cory & two black tetras now (& the frogs). That's
not too much for 12 gal. I do want to upsize but have only had a tank since
January, so I need more practice before spending more money. I have read a
lot about the ghost shrimp & I think that if I get one, he will be eaten or
will eat someone;)

[IDzine01]

Chris Palma > wrote in message >...
> This newsgroup is a good resource for newbie questions, and one that I
> haven't seen addressed since I've been participating (not all that
> long...) is about best practices for keeping Bettas.
>
> I know that there are mixed emotions and opinions about keeping bettas in
> cups / vases, etc. etc. etc., is there a good FAQ or article somewhere
> that summarizes both sides of the argument about cup raised bettas?

Here's a link about Betta Vases:

http://www.aquamaniacs.net/bettavase.html

There really is NO other side to the story. They are inhumane and
dangerous. They are marketed to unsuspecting customers. Remember,
bettas are tropical carnivores... they need 78*F water temperatures at
all times (can't get that in a vase); need access to the atmosphere to
brethe (yup, they can drown); should get no less then 1 gal of water
though 2.5 - 5gal is prefered; require an all meat diet (will starve
off the roots af a peace lily); and ammonia exposure will cause
irreversable damage shortening their lives and weakening their immune
systems. In short, vases are not good enough for any animal.

[PurityFailed]

>Here's a link about Betta Vases:

>From:

I hate those things. I work at a permanent home facility for the
mentally/physically disabled and there's several of those things. You'd think
that a foundation based around providing the best care for those that can't
speak for themselves would extend it a bit for their fishy charges.

Ah well, at least I'm there now to (hopefully) save the day! :)

Happy Trails!

Jessica
-Yet another baffled victim of a fish that decided to go MIA.