Questions about Ich

[CP]

Does anyone really know:
Can Ich survive in an aquarium with no fish, no living animals?
I've have a 40 gal tank that my kids use.
Two months ago they bought some fish, loaches, tetras, etc.
Within 5 days I noticed Ich.
Tried to treat it with Quick Cure.
Didn't work and all fish soon died.
Changed out filter but did not change water.
Let tank run for about 6 weeks.
Kids then went and bought 5-6 Platy's and I noticed about 3-4 days later
that fish had Ich.
I've read a ton about Ich in the last day, I am actually overloaded on the
topic.
Raise your tank water temp to 87-90 degrees. Add salt. Do this, don't do
this.

[atomweaver]

"CP" > wrote in
:

> Does anyone really know:
> Can Ich survive in an aquarium with no fish, no living animals?

Not likely.

> I've have a 40 gal tank that my kids use.
> Two months ago they bought some fish, loaches, tetras, etc.
> Within 5 days I noticed Ich.
> Tried to treat it with Quick Cure.
> Didn't work and all fish soon died.
> Changed out filter but did not change water.
> Let tank run for about 6 weeks.

That kind of a long time with no bio-load, you might have lost the
bacteria which handle your fish waste. You might need to go through the
process of cycling your tank again... (dunno, your first fish load may
not have been cycled, either).

> Kids then went and bought 5-6 Platy's and I noticed about 3-4 days
> later that fish had Ich.

They might have gotten stressed in an un-cycled tank. I'm told that
livebearers aren't the best thing in the world to cycle a tank with (not
a livebearer fan, myself). What are your water parameters, esp.
ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?

Let's assume you've cycled the tank, the above is not relevant, and your
water parameters are good (ammonia zero, nitrites zero, nitrates <40
mg/L);
When treating with a copper-derived medication, you have to
discontinue carbon filtration, if you have it. Carbon will suck the
medication out of the water lickety-split, before it can act on the
ich...
What is your treatment cycle? I go with four treatments, spaced four
days apart, with a 50% water change before each treatment is added to
the tank. That way, you hae the whole life-span of the ich covered.

> I've read a ton about Ich in the last day, I am actually overloaded on
> the topic.
> Raise your tank water temp to 87-90 degrees. Add salt. Do this, don't
> do this.
>

Yeah, the extra heat is often suggested, I've done it with some cardinal
tetras in the last year. Does anyone know if the platies would have a
particular issue with temps this high? Not knowing the breed, I'd tend
to keep the water temperature at the optimum for the species, as that
will tend to stress the fish less. All that the extra heat ultimately
does is reduce the total number of tomites, and speed up the total life
cycle of the ich a bit. Not an acceptable trade-off, IMO against the
extra stress on the fish, unless the specific fish can also handle those
higher temps (for cardinal tetras and bettas, no problem).

Sorry to hear about your tough time with the ich. Hope you can sort it
out...

Regards,
R. David Zopf

[Nikki Casali]

CP wrote:
> Does anyone really know:
> Can Ich survive in an aquarium with no fish, no living animals?
> I've have a 40 gal tank that my kids use.

Were there fish living happily in that tank before the additions? If
there weren't then you need to cycle your tank.
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html

Ich need new hosts to survive. You can guarantee that ich will be dead
by 6 weeks, if not by 3 weeks.
http://www.wikihow.com/Treat-Tropical-Fish-With-White-Spot-Disease-(ich)

Nikki

[dc]

"CP" > wrote in
:

> Does anyone really know:
> Can Ich survive in an aquarium with no fish, no living animals?

Ich can survive as a free swimming swarmer cell for about 48 hours. If
it does not find a host in that time period it will die. Ich can
survive as a multiplying mother cell in the substrate (or wherever it
lands) for approximately the same amount of time (depending on a few
variables including temperature and how engorged the mother cell was
before it left the host).

Ich medications are only effective against the free swimming swarmer
cell, not the infected Ich cyst or the mother cell stage.

If your tank is absent of fish for 4 to 7 days you can consider it Ich
free.

Ich is a relatively weak parasite and it is often the case that many
fish spend much of the lifetime hosting a latent Ich infestation.
Loaches, especially wild caught ones, are notorious for this.

A healthy fish can resist a mild Ich infestation to the point of
manifesting no visible symptoms. If the fish is subjected to stress
(e.g. due to transport or inappropriate tank or water conditions) the
immune system can fail and Ich can break-out manifesting itself as the
obvious and common white-spot disease. When a break-out occurs there
will be so many swarmer cells appearing in a very concentrated
environment that even a healthy fish will often not be able to fight off
the parasitic assault effectively.

Chances are the fish you are buying are hosting a latent infection
before they ever enter your tank. I would suggest you check your water
conditions before adding new fish and consider finding a new supplier or
at the very least quarantine your new fish and treat them for three days
with QuickCure before introducing them to your aquarium.

Some decent referenced Web info on the life cycle of Ichthyophthirius
multifiliis:

http://parasitology.informatik.uni-uerzburg.de/login/n/h/0702.html

[dc]

dc > wrote in news:Xns9831D661958Cjdoehotmailcom@
216.196.97.131:

> http://parasitology.informatik.uni-uerzburg.de/login/n/h/0702.html

Fixed URL:

http://parasitology.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/login/n/h/0702.html

[CP]

Thanks everyone.
Really appreciate the help.


"dc" > wrote in message
...
> dc > wrote in news:Xns9831D661958Cjdoehotmailcom@
> 216.196.97.131:
>
>> http://parasitology.informatik.uni-uerzburg.de/login/n/h/0702.html
>
> Fixed URL:
>
> http://parasitology.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/login/n/h/0702.html

[Tynk]

CP wrote:
> Does anyone really know:
> Can Ich survive in an aquarium with no fish, no living animals?
> I've have a 40 gal tank that my kids use.
> Two months ago they bought some fish, loaches, tetras, etc.
> Within 5 days I noticed Ich.
> Tried to treat it with Quick Cure.
> Didn't work and all fish soon died.
> Changed out filter but did not change water.
> Let tank run for about 6 weeks.
> Kids then went and bought 5-6 Platy's and I noticed about 3-4 days later
> that fish had Ich.
> I've read a ton about Ich in the last day, I am actually overloaded on the
> topic.
> Raise your tank water temp to 87-90 degrees. Add salt. Do this, don't do
> this.

You said that your first Ich treatment with Quick Cure didn't work and
all the fish died.
This really puzzles me, as QC is the best medicine (IMO) for Ich there
is (not to mention a ton of other "nasties" it kills that the bottle
doesn't list).
I have to ask....
Was the carbon removed from the filter system?
Was the QC bought new for this treatment, or had it been previously
opened and sat on a shelf somewhere?

Oh...always after treating with meds you should do a partial water
change.
You mentioned changing out the filter pad, but not changing any water.
Why is that?
Water changes are the best thing you can do for your tank.
Keep a regular schedule, and do an extra one after medication.
When ever your fish have or even don't have obvious symptoms, or have
J.A.R. (just aint right), do a water change!

[dc]

"Tynk" > wrote in
ups.com:

> You said that your first Ich treatment with Quick Cure didn't work and
> all the fish died.
> This really puzzles me, as QC is the best medicine (IMO) for Ich there

QuickCure is great for eliminating Ich in its free-swimming stage, but it
is not magic. I have seen a number of sick fish resist treatment and
succumb to the infestation anyway. A successful treatment is not only
based on proper dosing, but also on the quality of the environment, as well
as the level of stress and overall health of the affected fish.

For example, I recently witnessed a single platinum angelfish resist
treatment for Ich using QuickCure while all other angels in the tank showed
no signs of infestation after the second day of treatment. This particular
angel was being picked on by the remaining healthy angels and the resulting
stress caused by these assaults no doubt lowered the animals immune
response. It is also possible this particular angel may have had a genetic
abnormality in its immune function given the amount of inbreeding required
to produce a platinum angelfish (one out of every ten or so platinum angels
are so genetically warped that they never even develop ventral fins).

Some swarmer cells may survive treatment with QuickCure, under ideal
conditions the number of free-swimming swarmers is reduced significantly
enough to allow a strong fish to easily resist the remaining parasites, but
it is not always the case that a fish is in the proper condition to do so.
Since the original poster appeared to be experiencing an outbreak in a
brand-new tank, it is likely nitrogenous wastes were playing a role in the
stress and death of the infested fish. Ich on its own is rarely enough to
kill a healthy animal unless the disease is allowed to progress to a
ridiculous degree.

QuickCure has an extremely long shelf life. We buy it in bulk in large
gallon jugs that last several years.

[Tynk]

dc wrote:

>
> QuickCure is great for eliminating Ich in its free-swimming stage, but it
> is not magic. I have seen a number of sick fish resist treatment and
> succumb to the infestation anyway. A successful treatment is not only
> based on proper dosing, but also on the quality of the environment, as well
> as the level of stress and overall health of the affected fish.
>

>
> QuickCure has an extremely long shelf life. We buy it in bulk in large
> gallon jugs that last several years.


I'll have to disagree with you about Quick Cure being magic.
As long as you treat for a full week. I know it only says 3 days on the
bottle, but we all know the cycle of Ich is longer than 3 days. Treat
for a week and the Ich is gone like magic. = )
As for Q.C. having a long shelf life, I believe it was one of the regs
here that said it after it was opened it had a shorter lifespan.
The only time I've had no luck with Q.C. was on a Clown Loach. I used a
half dose (done this before with good results) and nothing. The Loach
died from such a bad infestation.
However, I was told at that time here that it was possible the Q.C. was
old.
I said it had been opened and sitting there for near 2 yrs I think.
I was then told it was probably old and not useful anymore.
So....who's the answers on Qucik Cure's shelf life?
As in from the manufactor?

[Köi-Lö]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> The only time I've had no luck with Q.C. was on a Clown Loach.


Have you ever tried heat and salt for ick on Clown Loaches? Did it work?
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[dc]

"Tynk" > wrote in
ups.com:

> I'll have to disagree with you about Quick Cure being magic.
> As long as you treat for a full week. I know it only says 3 days on
> the bottle, but we all know the cycle of Ich is longer than 3 days.
> Treat for a week and the Ich is gone like magic. = )

Well let me put it this way; I have had a hell of a lot of experience in my
use of QuickCure over the past two years on hundreds of subjects. If you
want it to work like magic you have to address all the variables leading to
the infestation, and not just medicate for the free-swimming parasites
themselves. It is possible for an animal to remain infested with Ich cysts
for over a week on a full and regular dosage of QuickCure if the cause or
contributes of immune system failure is not recognized and addressed. I
have seen it on a number of occasions on a number of subjects including
cichlids, goldfish, loaches, and platys to name a few.

In most circumstances QuickCure works very well on its own, but it is not
magic. Other variables including stress and general health play a major
role in proper recovery from an infestation. If you've faced the disease
as often as I have you will eventually encounter an occurrence that
requires more care than simply throwing a formalin and Malachite green at
it.

[swarvegorilla]

"dc" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Tynk" > wrote in
> ups.com:
>
>> I'll have to disagree with you about Quick Cure being magic.
>> As long as you treat for a full week. I know it only says 3 days on
>> the bottle, but we all know the cycle of Ich is longer than 3 days.
>> Treat for a week and the Ich is gone like magic. = )
>
> Well let me put it this way; I have had a hell of a lot of experience in
> my
> use of QuickCure over the past two years on hundreds of subjects. If you
> want it to work like magic you have to address all the variables leading
> to
> the infestation, and not just medicate for the free-swimming parasites
> themselves. It is possible for an animal to remain infested with Ich
> cysts
> for over a week on a full and regular dosage of QuickCure if the cause or
> contributes of immune system failure is not recognized and addressed. I
> have seen it on a number of occasions on a number of subjects including
> cichlids, goldfish, loaches, and platys to name a few.
>
> In most circumstances QuickCure works very well on its own, but it is not
> magic. Other variables including stress and general health play a major
> role in proper recovery from an infestation. If you've faced the disease
> as often as I have you will eventually encounter an occurrence that
> requires more care than simply throwing a formalin and Malachite green at
> it.

dc I just wanna say cheers for some great posts there.
very well done
I have also faced whitespot too many times to like.
My worst cases have followed powerloss to all tanks.
extreme stress and then shipments of new fish.
Sooner or later if your quarantine isn't good you get an outbreak.
Don't rinse nets or have a system?
Could have a nice outbreak.
But yea fish hide their symptoms as long as possible
It's how they prevent being 'thinned from the herd'
And every disease/parasite ONLY usually becomes a problem when the
environment favours it over the host.
For whitespot I like heat and salt.
up to 30 deg C
prob 1 tablespoon of swimming pool salt per 20L
and then the malachite
and usually a bit of melafix to help them patch up.
water change after 3 days, retreat water change after 3 days, retreat.
then after those 9 days I turn the temp slowly down.

Good food is a good way to heal fish too
I think spirulina flake is worthy
as are mozzie larvae
and chopped shrimp/prawn and chopped peas
earthworms and duckweed
a healthy diet and good water gives fish a bloody good chance at fighting
off almost anything
and when that fails massive doses of steroids, antibiotics and other
additives and technology can be used to keep them alive.
clean water and good food is cheaper tho.

[Tynk]

Köi-Lö wrote:

>
> Have you ever tried heat and salt for ick on Clown Loaches? Did it work?

As bad of an infestation as this Loach had, no way. Salt and higher
temps would take too long.

[Tynk]

dc wrote:

> In most circumstances QuickCure works very well on its own, but it is not
> magic. Other variables including stress and general health play a major
> role in proper recovery from an infestation.

Well of course. This is common knowledge and concerns every disease or
parasite out there. It's not just with Ich, or using Quick Cure.

The point in my disagreement with you on it working like "magic" on Ich
is that over many years, I have experienced the best results with this
particular medication.
And yes.....I have had many cases of Ich in my time in this hobby. I've
also dealt with many other diseases that no medication took care of,
then treated it with Q.C. and it cleared up.
Quick Cure is the only medication, besides Jungle's Fungus Eliminator,
that I keep in my cabinet at all times (besides salt).
Close to 30 yrs of experience and that's what I have found to work
wonders.
(Swarve....don't blow a gasket because I mentioned how long I've ben in
the hobby, lol..it has nothing to do with boasting!) = )

[dc]

"Tynk" > wrote in
oups.com:

> The point in my disagreement with you on it working like "magic" on
> Ich is that over many years, I have experienced the best results with
> this particular medication.

Perhaps we only differ on semantics then.

I agree QuickCure is the fastest and most effective chemical available for
combating Ich, but it is ignorant to ignore the contributing factors to the
problem and rely only on the medication to fix the problem.

Without addressing the causes to the outbreak in the first place you are
only addressing part of the problem. Ich is rarely responsible for the
death of an afflicted fish on its own. The overriding factors that
generated a situation the parasite could flourish in the first place are
often just if not more responsible for the death of a sick fish than the
parasite itself. The parasite merely takes advantage of this weakness to
thrive. If one only relies on the medication to solve the problem they
will eventually encounter a situation where the medication is unable to
eliminate the infestation on its own.

With all due respect owed to your thirty years of fish keeping, I work in
an environment with over 200 aquariums where stock turns over regularly-
this is the perfect environment for one to encounter just about any kind of
fish disease--depending on the season and the new stock Ich can be an
almost weekly occurrence.

The only medication I have heard is as effective as QuickCure against
protozoan parasites like Ich is Tetra's Lifeguard, a chlorine based
medication, but I have yet to try it myself.

[swarvegorilla]

> (Swarve....don't blow a gasket because I mentioned how long I've ben in
> the hobby, lol..it has nothing to do with boasting!) = )
>
whatever tossa
Your here, I'm here
convo is taking place
I can dig it

[swarvegorilla]

> With all due respect owed to your thirty years of fish keeping, I work in
> an environment with over 200 aquariums where stock turns over regularly-
> this is the perfect environment for one to encounter just about any kind
> of
> fish disease--depending on the season and the new stock Ich can be an
> almost weekly occurrence.
>


W000000T
my enviro would be over 200 if I included the 50 betta tanks
but without them about 180 X 2 to 8 footers
goldys to marine
I actually don't mind the wardleys ich meds
they are very very strong
I like that
makes medication time fun
what with the cool green med rings
very cool
heat and salt is the go
and dips
no one ever talks about dips anymore
if you have time they do wonders

[Tynk]

Swarve...


> > (Swarve....don't blow a gasket because I mentioned how long I've ben in
> > the hobby, lol..it has nothing to do with boasting!) = )
> >
> whatever tossa
> Your here, I'm here
> convo is taking place
> I can dig it

I meant this as a joke....I hope it came it out that way.
I really wish there were different fonts for being silly, mad, sarcasm,
etc.
That way folks could "hear" how somebody writes something.
Just thought I'd make a little note because now that I'm going through
the rest of the thread it didn't "sound" like I had meant it to.

[Alpha]

"swarvegorilla" > wrote in message
...
>> (Swarve....don't blow a gasket because I mentioned how long I've ben in
>> the hobby, lol..it has nothing to do with boasting!) = )
>>
> whatever tossa
> Your here, I'm here
> convo is taking place
> I can dig it
>
>

Idiot.

[Alpha]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Swarve...
>
>
>> > (Swarve....don't blow a gasket because I mentioned how long I've ben in
>> > the hobby, lol..it has nothing to do with boasting!) = )
>> >
>> whatever tossa
>> Your here, I'm here
>> convo is taking place
>> I can dig it
>
> I meant this as a joke....I hope it came it out that way.
> I really wish there were different fonts for being silly, mad, sarcasm,
> etc.
> That way folks could "hear" how somebody writes something.
> Just thought I'd make a little note because now that I'm going through
> the rest of the thread it didn't "sound" like I had meant it to.
>

This is an out of control adolescent. Ignore the idiot.

[swarvegorilla]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Swarve...
>
>
>> > (Swarve....don't blow a gasket because I mentioned how long I've ben in
>> > the hobby, lol..it has nothing to do with boasting!) = )
>> >
>> whatever tossa
>> Your here, I'm here
>> convo is taking place
>> I can dig it
>
> I meant this as a joke....I hope it came it out that way.
> I really wish there were different fonts for being silly, mad, sarcasm,
> etc.
> That way folks could "hear" how somebody writes something.
> Just thought I'd make a little note because now that I'm going through
> the rest of the thread it didn't "sound" like I had meant it to.
>

yea your right
jeez, people take this place a bit too heavily
I mean come on we beat the last wave of lame trolls
You guys get me at the end of or like now, before a shift.
I don't sleep much
so either killfile me or get over the fact I ain't always gonna be luvy
dovey
I recon I know enuf about fish to be a worthy convo piece but yea
I have enuf trouble not shouting/swearing at people as it is.
and steves dead
I mean jeez
all I needed was more stalker troubles.
but agreed it's hard to pick that tone in text and then it just depends if
the reader wants to get ****ed off at it.


Anyway just invented a nice new fry saver
tis the mk206 or something
bloody brilliant
will post it up when someone has fry