How deep to over winter fish?

[cymric]

I live in the Chicagoland area and have a new pond. Its about 2-3 feet deep in the middle and about 7 feet across. I have six goldfish and one Koi and wonder if they can overwinter or do I need to bring them inside?

[Köi-Lö]

"cymric" > wrote in message
...
>
> I live in the Chicagoland area and have a new pond. Its about 2-3 feet
> deep in the middle and about 7 feet across. I have six goldfish and
> one Koi and wonder if they can overwinter or do I need to bring them
> inside?
========================
2 to 3' deep may be too shallow in your climate. If the fish freeze they
will die. Or if so much water freezes they have too small an area of
unfrozen water, they will suffocate. Your pond seems kind of small for koi.
Koi can reach 3' in length. They are not small fish. Pond goldfish can
reach lengths of 1' or more.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Köi-Lö]

"John Bachman" > wrote in message
...
>
In cold weather the diaphragm
> gets stiff and cannot generate the pressure needed to get air down 36
> inches or so (that should be about 1.5 psi).
================
I was told NOT to put the bubbler near the bottom where the warmer water is
in winter. It goes nearer the top to keep an opening in the ice. It should
not be deep enough to be roiling and mixing the colder and warmer layers.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[John Bachman]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:00:14 +0100, cymric
> wrote:

>
>I live in the Chicagoland area and have a new pond. Its about 2-3 feet
>deep in the middle and about 7 feet across. I have six goldfish and
>one Koi and wonder if they can overwinter or do I need to bring them
>inside?
I am in Southern NH, USDA zone 5b probably close to your winter
climate. My pond is 40 inches deep. I put a bubbler in to keep a
hole in the ice and the fish do fine.

My first year I used an aquarium bubbler protected from the elements.
I failed to move air during a cold snap and I had to do a hurry up
backup system using my compressor. I think what happened comes from
using a diaphragm type bubbler pump. In cold weather the diaphragm
gets stiff and cannot generate the pressure needed to get air down 36
inches or so (that should be about 1.5 psi).

Now I have a set up that runs off my compressor which is in a garage
nearby. It works and fine and the fish survive just fine.

What a boring way to spend the winter - swimming slowwwwllllllyyyyyyy
around, day after day after day, ad nauseum.

John

[Snooze]

"Köi-Lö" <$##$$@$##$$.#$$> wrote in message
...
> ========================
> 2 to 3' deep may be too shallow in your climate. If the fish freeze they
> will die. Or if so much water freezes they have too small an area of
> unfrozen water, they will suffocate. Your pond seems kind of small for
> koi. Koi can reach 3' in length. They are not small fish. Pond goldfish
> can reach lengths of 1' or more.

As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about, and as usual, you give
newbies bad advice.
6 gf and 1 koi in a pond that's at least 7ft long, that's nothing, even if
they're full grown. The original poster didn't give us enough information to
accurately guestimate the pond's volume. But if it's 7ft long, we can assume
about 4-5ft wide. 7x4x3 = 84cuft or about 630 gallons.

The faq suggests 20 gal per gf, and 100 gal per koi, so
6 gf * 20 gal + 1 koi * 100 gal = 220 gal.

The original poster is well within the pond limits. You should have at least
plagiarized someone else's advice from last year, if you had, you might have
suggested a bubbler or a de-icer to keep a gas exchange hole open over
winter.

Original poster, check out these items as an example.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/NavResults.cfm?N=62728+113821

[John Bachman]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 17:41:53 -0500, Köi-Lö <$##$$@$##$$.#$$> wrote:

>
>"John Bachman" > wrote in message
...
>>
> In cold weather the diaphragm
>> gets stiff and cannot generate the pressure needed to get air down 36
>> inches or so (that should be about 1.5 psi).
>================
>I was told NOT to put the bubbler near the bottom where the warmer water is
>in winter. It goes nearer the top to keep an opening in the ice. It should
>not be deep enough to be roiling and mixing the colder and warmer layers.

I have heard that too but do not buy it. Water is funny stuff. It is
most dense at 39 F. That means that as still water cools below 39F it
rises to the surface leaving warmer water at the bottom.

Now if you put your bubbler in the warmer, denser water at the bottom,
it will carry some of that warmth to the top producing a hole in the
ice.

I believe that putting the bubbler near the top will result in more
ice build up there than if it were at the bottom. As it is, during
real cold weather I have to break open the hole with a shovel or
something so I really do not plan on moving my bubbler to the top as
that would result in more frequent and denser ice-overs.

This system has worked well for me for three winters now so I do not
plan to change.

Your mileage may vary.

John

[Henry & Carolyn]

We live in SW Ontario and our pond is approximately the same size as yours.
We leave the pump running in the winter and cover the pond with a clear,
heavy plastic tarp. Unless we get a really long super cold snap, the water
stays open and the fish are fine. We have never lost any fish during the
winter and they even seem to grow!
Good luck!
Carolyn

"cymric" > wrote in message
...
>
> I live in the Chicagoland area and have a new pond. Its about 2-3 feet
> deep in the middle and about 7 feet across. I have six goldfish and
> one Koi and wonder if they can overwinter or do I need to bring them
> inside?
>
>
>
>
> --
> cymric

[Köi-Lö]

"Snooze" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Köi-Lö" <$##$$@$##$$.#$$> wrote in message
> ...
>> ========================
>> 2 to 3' deep may be too shallow in your climate. If the fish freeze they
>> will die. Or if so much water freezes they have too small an area of
>> unfrozen water, they will suffocate. Your pond seems kind of small for
>> koi. Koi can reach 3' in length. They are not small fish. Pond goldfish
>> can reach lengths of 1' or more.
>

> As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about, and as usual, you
> give newbies bad advice.

As usual you find some piddly squat reason to TROLL me.

> 6 gf and 1 koi in a pond that's at least 7ft long, that's nothing, even if
> they're full grown.

I disagree with you Troll. A 3' koi in a 7' pond is like a person living in
a closet.

The original poster didn't give us enough information to
> accurately guestimate the pond's volume. But if it's 7ft long, we can
> assume about 4-5ft wide. 7x4x3 = 84cuft or about 630 gallons.

You can assume nothing!

> The faq suggests 20 gal per gf, and 100 gal per koi, so
> 6 gf * 20 gal + 1 koi * 100 gal = 220 gal.
>
> The original poster is well within the pond limits. You should have at
> least plagiarized someone else's advice from last year,

You should stop TROLLING.

if you had, you might have
> suggested a bubbler or a de-icer to keep a gas exchange hole open over
> winter.

No matter what I post you TROLL it.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Köi-Lö]

"John Bachman" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 17:41:53 -0500, Köi-Lö <$##$$@$##$$.#$$> wrote:
>>I was told NOT to put the bubbler near the bottom where the warmer water
>>is
>>in winter. It goes nearer the top to keep an opening in the ice. It
>>should
>>not be deep enough to be roiling and mixing the colder and warmer layers.
===================
> I have heard that too but do not buy it. Water is funny stuff. It is
> most dense at 39 F. That means that as still water cools below 39F it
> rises to the surface leaving warmer water at the bottom.
>
> Now if you put your bubbler in the warmer, denser water at the bottom,
> it will carry some of that warmth to the top producing a hole in the
> ice.

It can also super-chill the bottom which is stressful for the fish -
according to what I've read and was told. I drop the airstone about 6"
below the surface and it keeps a hole open all winter. If I were further
north 6" may not be enough. However I wouldn't want to drop it close to the
bottom. What usually doesn't make the winter in my ponds are the bullfrogs.
Every spring I have to net out at least one dead frog.

> I believe that putting the bubbler near the top will result in more
> ice build up there than if it were at the bottom.

In my experience that has never happened.

As it is, during
> real cold weather I have to break open the hole with a shovel or
> something so I really do not plan on moving my bubbler to the top as
> that would result in more frequent and denser ice-overs.
>
> This system has worked well for me for three winters now so I do not
> plan to change.

Whatever works for YOU. :-)

> Your mileage may vary.

This is true.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Köi-Lö]

"Henry & Carolyn" > wrote in message
...
> We live in SW Ontario and our pond is approximately the same size as
> yours. We leave the pump running in the winter and cover the pond with a
> clear, heavy plastic tarp. Unless we get a really long super cold snap,
> the water stays open and the fish are fine. We have never lost any fish
> during the winter and they even seem to grow!
======================
That's what I plan to do with my above ground breeding tanks of 680g each.
They get sun most of the afternoon. We're hoping they get enough solar
radiation to keep the surface from freezing solid. Nights can get pretty
cold here in zone 6.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[[email protected]]

I am north of you in Milwaukee. I cover my pond in winter.
http://weloveteaching.com/mypond/winters/winter.htm
it is a very simple lean to. it is high enough over the pond so snow doesnt make the
plastic sag down into the pond.
I now use a 500 watt aquarium heater in the pond along with a bucket filter and I
feed my koi 11 months of the year. before the heater they wouldnt eat for 5-6
months. Ingrid

cymric > wrote:

>
>I live in the Chicagoland area and have a new pond. Its about 2-3 feet
>deep in the middle and about 7 feet across. I have six goldfish and
>one Koi and wonder if they can overwinter or do I need to bring them
>inside?



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[[email protected]]

cymric wrote:
> I live in the Chicagoland area and have a new pond. Its about 2-3 feet
> deep in the middle and about 7 feet across. I have six goldfish and
> one Koi and wonder if they can overwinter or do I need to bring them
> inside?
>
>
>
>
> --
> cymric

I live in Chicago and have a 50 gallon pond, 4 foot wide, 2 foot
across, maximum depth about 30 inches. Last year I kept 6 large
goldfish with no apparant problem. If you remember last year was not
very cold. The pond did freeze over for most of December and again
January into February. Each time after about a month I just broke out
the ice. The fish were fine.

I went to alot of effort in the Fall to remove all leaves and started
with very clean water.

I don't think a bubbler is really necessary, and feel that no currents
should be created. I don't want the fish exerting themselves in any
way, as they are not being fed.

You do know not to try to feed them? Cold water shuts down the
digestive system. I'm starting to reduce feedings now. Low 50's water
temps mean no more food.