My Angel is Blind

[Gordon]

All,

I have had two Angels for about 4 months now. When I got them they were
about 12mm in body height (height being more appropriate with angels than
length!) They are now about 25mm in height and have been doing really well
until recently when one of them stopped eating and always seemed to be just
hanging in the water, between the two filters. This one is what I think they
call a goldhead. I moved it to the hospital tank and treated with Myxacin
and a very weak solution of salt. I could see no physical ailments and so
this treatment was more of a shotgun approach than anything specific. After
a week I discussed it with my LFS, for whom I have a great deal of respect
and he advised that I should be a bit patient as fish can take a while to
get better. He gave me a sample of Melafix and I used that for a further
week. Since then it has seemed to be improving but painstakingly slightly
each day. It has now been 3 weeks since I moved it to the hospital tank.
Last week I switched on the light in the hospital tank and it cringed,
thinking it was just because I hadn't had the light on for a few days, I
expected it to calm down, but instead it continued and became quite
agitated, scooting along the bottom of the tank on it's stomach, both
forwards and backwards and crashing into the sides. I turned out the light
and it settled almost immediately. I have tried this again since with pretty
much the same result although not quite as manic! On Wednesday night, I
dropped a flake of food into the tank and for the first time there was some
interest. It watched the flake as it became water logged and eventually sank
to the bottom. About 30 minutes later I came back into the room and the
flake had been eaten. It was a pretty small one so I dropped another in,
with the same results, although this time I watched from a distance and
noticed that instead of going down head first to suck it up as a healthy
Angel will tend to do, it slithered along, backwards on the bottom of the
tank sort of half on it's side, until it disturbed the flake and only then
sucked it into it's mouth. Since then I have watched both morning and
evening when I have fed and the same happens every time. Tonight I put some
Daphnia in which as most of you will know is a favourite food for angels.
Normally they wouldn't have survived more than a few minutes. Once again I
don't believe the fish is actually able to see them clearly and so it is
sliding along the bottom until a Daphnia happens to cross in front of it,
having being disturbed by the sliding along on the bottom. Only then does it
suck in and about 50% of the time it manages to catch them. Of the ten or so
that I put in about 3 hours ago, 4 are still alive and swimming about
avoiding the fish without any problems.

During all of this, the fish is seldom upright, instead it seems to be at
about 60 degrees to the horizontal (i.e. 30 degrees over from upright) and
spends a lot of it's time with it's stomach scraping along the bottom. I am
convinced that this fish has suffered a distinct loss of sight and can only
see a small percentage of what it should be able to. It also seems to be
hyper sensitive to light, although doesn't seem to notice when I come near
the tank. When vacumning the tank it doesn't get out of the way until the
pipe touches it. I still don't know what the original ailment was although
it seems to be on the mend now that it is at least eating again after 3
weeks. I have had a subsequent outbreak of what I think is gill fluke in the
main tank. All the other fish are being treated with salt water baths twice
a day to deal with this. They all seem to be responding well to this, so I
am not sure if this is what this angel had to start with, although the
symptoms were the complete opposite, in that this one didn't seem agitated
and certainly wasn't breathing hard or anything similar.

Sorry for the long story, I just wanted to give as much info as I could. Is
there any other incidence of a fish going blind? Is this likely to be a
permanent condition? If so then I quess it would have to be kept isolated,
otherwise it will never get any food.

BTW, all water parameters are ideal, the hospital tank is bare bottomed and
only has a heater and a small filter. When not in use I run the filter in
the main tank so that there is a healthy bacteria colony when I need it. I
also use water from the main tank when first using the hospital tank. After
the initial fill, I do 20% water changes each day with tap water, which has
been treated with dechlorinator and also standing in a plastic resevoir with
a pump and air supply running all the time. This way I always have water for
topping up and for water changes. The temp in the main tank is 25.5 C and in
the hospital tank it is a little higher at 27 C.

I hope someone can help.

Kind Regards

Gordon

[NetMax]

"Gordon" <newsin_at_hgp.nildram.co.uk> wrote in message
...
> All,
>
> I have had two Angels for about 4 months now. When I got them they were
> about 12mm in body height (height being more appropriate with angels
than
> length!) They are now about 25mm in height and have been doing really
well
> until recently when one of them stopped eating and always seemed to be
just
> hanging in the water, between the two filters. This one is what I think
they
> call a goldhead. I moved it to the hospital tank and treated with
Myxacin
> and a very weak solution of salt. I could see no physical ailments and
so
> this treatment was more of a shotgun approach than anything specific.
After
> a week I discussed it with my LFS, for whom I have a great deal of
respect
> and he advised that I should be a bit patient as fish can take a while
to
> get better. He gave me a sample of Melafix and I used that for a
further
> week. Since then it has seemed to be improving but painstakingly
slightly
> each day. It has now been 3 weeks since I moved it to the hospital
tank.
> Last week I switched on the light in the hospital tank and it cringed,
> thinking it was just because I hadn't had the light on for a few days,
I
> expected it to calm down, but instead it continued and became quite
> agitated, scooting along the bottom of the tank on it's stomach, both
> forwards and backwards and crashing into the sides. I turned out the
light
> and it settled almost immediately. I have tried this again since with
pretty
> much the same result although not quite as manic! On Wednesday night, I
> dropped a flake of food into the tank and for the first time there was
some
> interest. It watched the flake as it became water logged and eventually
sank
> to the bottom. About 30 minutes later I came back into the room and the
> flake had been eaten. It was a pretty small one so I dropped another
in,
> with the same results, although this time I watched from a distance and
> noticed that instead of going down head first to suck it up as a
healthy
> Angel will tend to do, it slithered along, backwards on the bottom of
the
> tank sort of half on it's side, until it disturbed the flake and only
then
> sucked it into it's mouth. Since then I have watched both morning and
> evening when I have fed and the same happens every time. Tonight I put
some
> Daphnia in which as most of you will know is a favourite food for
angels.
> Normally they wouldn't have survived more than a few minutes. Once
again I
> don't believe the fish is actually able to see them clearly and so it
is
> sliding along the bottom until a Daphnia happens to cross in front of
it,
> having being disturbed by the sliding along on the bottom. Only then
does it
> suck in and about 50% of the time it manages to catch them. Of the ten
or so
> that I put in about 3 hours ago, 4 are still alive and swimming about
> avoiding the fish without any problems.
>
> During all of this, the fish is seldom upright, instead it seems to be
at
> about 60 degrees to the horizontal (i.e. 30 degrees over from upright)
and
> spends a lot of it's time with it's stomach scraping along the bottom.
I am
> convinced that this fish has suffered a distinct loss of sight and can
only
> see a small percentage of what it should be able to. It also seems to
be
> hyper sensitive to light, although doesn't seem to notice when I come
near
> the tank. When vacumning the tank it doesn't get out of the way until
the
> pipe touches it. I still don't know what the original ailment was
although
> it seems to be on the mend now that it is at least eating again after 3
> weeks. I have had a subsequent outbreak of what I think is gill fluke
in the
> main tank. All the other fish are being treated with salt water baths
twice
> a day to deal with this. They all seem to be responding well to this,
so I
> am not sure if this is what this angel had to start with, although the
> symptoms were the complete opposite, in that this one didn't seem
agitated
> and certainly wasn't breathing hard or anything similar.
>
> Sorry for the long story, I just wanted to give as much info as I
could. Is
> there any other incidence of a fish going blind? Is this likely to be a
> permanent condition? If so then I quess it would have to be kept
isolated,
> otherwise it will never get any food.
>
> BTW, all water parameters are ideal, the hospital tank is bare bottomed
and
> only has a heater and a small filter. When not in use I run the filter
in
> the main tank so that there is a healthy bacteria colony when I need
it. I
> also use water from the main tank when first using the hospital tank.
After
> the initial fill, I do 20% water changes each day with tap water, which
has
> been treated with dechlorinator and also standing in a plastic resevoir
with
> a pump and air supply running all the time. This way I always have
water for
> topping up and for water changes. The temp in the main tank is 25.5 C
and in
> the hospital tank it is a little higher at 27 C.
>
> I hope someone can help.
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Gordon

FWIW, having the Angelfish slide along the bottom in a panic and bouncing
off the sides is quite normal behaviour in a barebottom hospital tank
when you turn the lights on. Try not to do it, add some black background
around the tank and a cover if you don't have one (leaving the light
off). Angelfish are not well equipped for battle, so in an exposed
environment (empty hospital tank), they get very skittish. I sometimes
question how effective hospital tanks are for certain conditions with
fish like Angels & Discus.

As for your diagnosis, I don't have too much to suggest. I'd try
medicated foods (anti-bacterial) for the symptoms described. In dim
light, you might be able to determine how its vision has been affected.
Any disease which has tunnelled into the brain or the nerves controlling
reflexes will yield similar symptoms (ie: loss of orientation).
--
http://www.netmax.tk/

[Dick]

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 22:48:20 +0100, "Gordon"
<newsin_at_hgp.nildram.co.uk> wrote:

>All,
>
>I have had two Angels for about 4 months now. When I got them they were
>about 12mm in body height (height being more appropriate with angels than
>length!) They are now about 25mm in height and have been doing really well
>until recently when one of them stopped eating and always seemed to be just
>hanging in the water, between the two filters. This one is what I think they
>call a goldhead. I moved it to the hospital tank and treated with Myxacin
>and a very weak solution of salt. I could see no physical ailments and so
>this treatment was more of a shotgun approach than anything specific. After
>a week I discussed it with my LFS, for whom I have a great deal of respect
>and he advised that I should be a bit patient as fish can take a while to
>get better. He gave me a sample of Melafix and I used that for a further
>week. Since then it has seemed to be improving but painstakingly slightly
>each day. It has now been 3 weeks since I moved it to the hospital tank.
>Last week I switched on the light in the hospital tank and it cringed,
>thinking it was just because I hadn't had the light on for a few days, I
>expected it to calm down, but instead it continued and became quite
>agitated, scooting along the bottom of the tank on it's stomach, both
>forwards and backwards and crashing into the sides. I turned out the light
>and it settled almost immediately. I have tried this again since with pretty
>much the same result although not quite as manic! On Wednesday night, I
>dropped a flake of food into the tank and for the first time there was some
>interest. It watched the flake as it became water logged and eventually sank
>to the bottom. About 30 minutes later I came back into the room and the
>flake had been eaten. It was a pretty small one so I dropped another in,
>with the same results, although this time I watched from a distance and
>noticed that instead of going down head first to suck it up as a healthy
>Angel will tend to do, it slithered along, backwards on the bottom of the
>tank sort of half on it's side, until it disturbed the flake and only then
>sucked it into it's mouth. Since then I have watched both morning and
>evening when I have fed and the same happens every time. Tonight I put some
>Daphnia in which as most of you will know is a favourite food for angels.
>Normally they wouldn't have survived more than a few minutes. Once again I
>don't believe the fish is actually able to see them clearly and so it is
>sliding along the bottom until a Daphnia happens to cross in front of it,
>having being disturbed by the sliding along on the bottom. Only then does it
>suck in and about 50% of the time it manages to catch them. Of the ten or so
>that I put in about 3 hours ago, 4 are still alive and swimming about
>avoiding the fish without any problems.
>
>During all of this, the fish is seldom upright, instead it seems to be at
>about 60 degrees to the horizontal (i.e. 30 degrees over from upright) and
>spends a lot of it's time with it's stomach scraping along the bottom. I am
>convinced that this fish has suffered a distinct loss of sight and can only
>see a small percentage of what it should be able to. It also seems to be
>hyper sensitive to light, although doesn't seem to notice when I come near
>the tank. When vacumning the tank it doesn't get out of the way until the
>pipe touches it. I still don't know what the original ailment was although
>it seems to be on the mend now that it is at least eating again after 3
>weeks. I have had a subsequent outbreak of what I think is gill fluke in the
>main tank. All the other fish are being treated with salt water baths twice
>a day to deal with this. They all seem to be responding well to this, so I
>am not sure if this is what this angel had to start with, although the
>symptoms were the complete opposite, in that this one didn't seem agitated
>and certainly wasn't breathing hard or anything similar.
>
>Sorry for the long story, I just wanted to give as much info as I could. Is
>there any other incidence of a fish going blind? Is this likely to be a
>permanent condition? If so then I quess it would have to be kept isolated,
>otherwise it will never get any food.
>
>BTW, all water parameters are ideal, the hospital tank is bare bottomed and
>only has a heater and a small filter. When not in use I run the filter in
>the main tank so that there is a healthy bacteria colony when I need it. I
>also use water from the main tank when first using the hospital tank. After
>the initial fill, I do 20% water changes each day with tap water, which has
>been treated with dechlorinator and also standing in a plastic resevoir with
>a pump and air supply running all the time. This way I always have water for
>topping up and for water changes. The temp in the main tank is 25.5 C and in
>the hospital tank it is a little higher at 27 C.
>
>I hope someone can help.
>
>Kind Regards
>
>Gordon
>

As for not eating, I was in a panic when my pet black angel quit
eating. Feeding her is a special treat as I feel a special attachment
and she comes close to where I put the food in the water. I always
put the food right down on the water over where she is watching and
she has a great appetite. Well, she stopped, for a month nothing
interested her. Then one day she was back to the surface and gulping
down the flakes I practically handed to her mouth.

As for the swimming, I have a sad tale. I had 3 angels in my 75
gallon tank (including the one above). I discovered two of them were
breeders. So I decided to move them (after they were through guarding
the eggs) to a 10 gallon tank to be alone. I forget how long they
were there, few days or a couple of weeks later one started swimming
into things, then swimming in strange ways, even upside down. It died
within a week or so. The other one started the same behavior and she
died also. At first I suspected the one was blind, but with the
second acting the same and no other symptoms, I concluded I had
damaged the organ they used to buoy themselves. Not really satisfied
with my explanation. Doesn't matter anyway. They are gone.

By the way, I moved the third angel to a 29 gallon tank with no
mishap.

Fish die! :-(

[Flash Wilson]

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 22:48:31 -0400, NetMax > wrote:
>"Gordon" <newsin_at_hgp.nildram.co.uk> wrote in message
...
>I am
>> convinced that this fish has suffered a distinct loss of sight and can
>only
>> see a small percentage of what it should be able to. It also seems to
>be
>> hyper sensitive to light, although doesn't seem to notice when I come
>near
>> the tank. When vacumning the tank it doesn't get out of the way until
>the
>> pipe touches it. I still don't know what the original ailment was
>
>As for your diagnosis, I don't have too much to suggest.

Me either... I just wanted to add that I adopted an angel recently
- it's blind in one eye (cloudy) and has been for years. I believe
its water parameters are significantly improved because I don't think
the last owner did much tank maintenance, but there is no improvement
in the eye.

As a result, he swims in circles in one direction only. If he comes
across an obstacle he will lie flat on the surface of the water and
flip over it. It also seems rather sensitive to the light coming on
(although for the last 3 days after my lamp blew, it was in near
dark and didn't move much at all so I suppose light is good really).

It's not good at finding food, and refuses to swim the other way
(so I've had to trim my plants so he hops over them less in the
path that he always swims.

Other than the blindness he seems fine (although I've never kept
angels before).

I suppose the original poster's fish is unable to orient itself
to the light so hangs at an odd angle...

If anyone can suggest a treatment for my fish, please do.
I have small tetras in the tank so can't use full strength
meds.


--
Flash Wilson Visit my website: http://www.gorge.org
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[Boris]

What's the fish worth? A buck? Flush it before you screw up the rest of
your tank.


"Gordon" <newsin_at_hgp.nildram.co.uk> wrote in message
...
> All,
>
> I have had two Angels for about 4 months now. When I got them they
were
> about 12mm in body height (height being more appropriate with angels
than

[coelacanth]

"Gordon" <newsin_at_hgp.nildram.co.uk> wrote in message
...
> All,
>
> I have had two Angels for about 4 months now. When I got them they were
> about 12mm in body height (height being more appropriate with angels than
> length!) They are now about 25mm in height and have been doing really well

Just an observation that IME young angels grow much faster than
this. Maybe your choice of foods needs to be re-evaluated?

-coelacanth

[Gordon]

Thank you to all of you for your responses. I have put the angel back into
the main tank as I am now treating this tank with Sterazin, after discussing
the gill fluke situation with my LFS. The blind Angel seems happier although
obviously is not getting any food. I have decided to kit out the hospital
tank as a permanent home for it, with gravel, Plants and other decorations
to make it feel more secure. This is the only way I can think of to ensure
that it gets food.

coelacanth, I feed Frozen Tropical mix or Frozen Brine Shrimp once a week,
Algae Wafer once a week, Mushed up peas about once every two weeks and live
Daphnia every second day. Every other day I feed "King British" Flake food.
For the Corydora's and the Striped Dora, I feed "King British" Pellets every
day, (Except those days when I feed the algae wafers.)

NetMax, I had one question from your reply, if I may; When you said "In dim
light, you might be able to determine how its vision has been affected."
Were you suggesting something specific or just a general observation? What I
mean is, are you saying that in dim light conditions, it might be easier to
determine the extent of the damage, or are you suggesting that the cause
might become apparent?

Flash Wilson, you mention that your Angel's eye is cloudy. I seem to recall
reading that this is indeed blindness, either temporary or permanent. My
angel's eyes are both clear and what I would call normal. It's eyes move as
if it is looking at things, it just seem to see them. In normal conditions
it is aware of it's surroundings, however when frightened, e.g. when the
other angel chases it, it then will bang into even the tiniest leaf, causing
it to shy away from that too.

Boris, thank you for your realism and straight talking, I have considered
Euthanasia, but want to complete this treatment of Sterazin (10 days) before
I make a decision. Also I want to see how big a deal it is going to be to
keep it in a seperate tank. If it turns out to be happy in a "furnished"
tank then I will probably keep it. I am a bit of coward!!

Once again, thanks to all of you for your repies. I will keep you posted on
how things progress.

Kind Regards

Gordon


"coelacanth" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Gordon" <newsin_at_hgp.nildram.co.uk> wrote in message
> ...
> > All,
> >
> > I have had two Angels for about 4 months now. When I got them they were
> > about 12mm in body height (height being more appropriate with angels
than
> > length!) They are now about 25mm in height and have been doing really
well
>
> Just an observation that IME young angels grow much faster than
> this. Maybe your choice of foods needs to be re-evaluated?
>
> -coelacanth
>
>

[RedForeman ©®]

> What's the fish worth? A buck? Flush it before you screw up the rest
> of your tank.

Welcome to the kill_file... moron.... <PlonK!>

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø


is that better??

[NetMax]

"Gordon" <newsin_at_hgp.nildram.co.uk> wrote in message
...
> Thank you to all of you for your responses. I have put the angel back
into
> the main tank as I am now treating this tank with Sterazin, after
discussing
> the gill fluke situation with my LFS. The blind Angel seems happier
although
> obviously is not getting any food. I have decided to kit out the
hospital
> tank as a permanent home for it, with gravel, Plants and other
decorations
> to make it feel more secure. This is the only way I can think of to
ensure
> that it gets food.
>
> coelacanth, I feed Frozen Tropical mix or Frozen Brine Shrimp once a
week,
> Algae Wafer once a week, Mushed up peas about once every two weeks and
live
> Daphnia every second day. Every other day I feed "King British" Flake
food.
> For the Corydora's and the Striped Dora, I feed "King British" Pellets
every
> day, (Except those days when I feed the algae wafers.)
>
> NetMax, I had one question from your reply, if I may; When you said "In
dim
> light, you might be able to determine how its vision has been
affected."
> Were you suggesting something specific or just a general observation?
What I
> mean is, are you saying that in dim light conditions, it might be
easier to
> determine the extent of the damage, or are you suggesting that the
cause
> might become apparent?

My thinking is that if the fish has developed a sensitivity to light, it
will appear to behave as if it's blind under normal light conditions.
Putting him in very dim light, just sufficient for observation, will
confirm if the fish's behavior is any different. If it behaves more
normally and you have enough tanks, then retire him to a dim quiet tank
with lots of floating plants. I have several fish in 'retirement'. If
you can meet their disability part-way, it's sometimes remarkable how
well they adjust.

> Flash Wilson, you mention that your Angel's eye is cloudy. I seem to
recall
> reading that this is indeed blindness, either temporary or permanent.
My
> angel's eyes are both clear and what I would call normal. It's eyes
move as
> if it is looking at things, it just seem to see them. In normal
conditions
> it is aware of it's surroundings, however when frightened, e.g. when
the
> other angel chases it, it then will bang into even the tiniest leaf,
causing
> it to shy away from that too.
>
> Boris, thank you for your realism and straight talking, I have
considered
> Euthanasia, but want to complete this treatment of Sterazin (10 days)
before
> I make a decision. Also I want to see how big a deal it is going to be
to
> keep it in a seperate tank. If it turns out to be happy in a
"furnished"
> tank then I will probably keep it. I am a bit of coward!!

If you decide to euthanise, I've had good results with clove oil. About
1ml in a gallon of water, agitated enough for the clove oil to partly
dissolve into the water. Their respiration slows to zero, with no
outward signs of distress.
--
http://www.netmax.tk/

> Once again, thanks to all of you for your repies. I will keep you
posted on
> how things progress.
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Gordon
>
>
> "coelacanth" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > "Gordon" <newsin_at_hgp.nildram.co.uk> wrote in message
> > ...
> > > All,
> > >
> > > I have had two Angels for about 4 months now. When I got them they
were
> > > about 12mm in body height (height being more appropriate with
angels
> than
> > > length!) They are now about 25mm in height and have been doing
really
> well
> >
> > Just an observation that IME young angels grow much faster than
> > this. Maybe your choice of foods needs to be re-evaluated?
> >
> > -coelacanth
> >
> >
>
>