CO2 and anabantids

[southpaw]

Just a quick question.

I've got a planted seven gallon tank, cycled, with a male betta, 2
cherry barbs, and two corydoras trileanatus. I've been toying with the
idea of setting up a basic DIY 2 liter yeast reactor, as my plants
(some anachris, a red tiger lotus, and some didiplus) are doing ok,
but not much more better than that.

I've done my research. I have fairly hard water tap water that tests
out in the 1.2-1.3 range with slightly above neutral Ph, so I'm not
worried about buffer crashes. But since I'm just bubbling the CO2
straight to the surface and not into a diffuser, I'm worried that a
surface buildup might harm my surface breather. The hood on this tank
is vented. Will that be enough to keep CO2 above the water surface
from reaching toxic concentrations?

Thanks for any help.

[southpaw]

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 19:49:19 -0700, southpaw > wrote:

>I've done my research. I have fairly hard water tap water that tests
>out in the 1.2-1.3 range

E.C that is. *smacks forehead*

[dc]

southpaw > wrote in news:nfi6h2d9r6k73saljdpao6l3smgbg1ptgu@
4ax.com:

> straight to the surface and not into a diffuser, I'm worried that a
> surface buildup might harm my surface breather. The hood on this tank
> is vented. Will that be enough to keep CO2 above the water surface
> from reaching toxic concentrations?

I imagine your fish will be fine.

Sugar yeast mixes work, but they don't exactly rocket out CO2. If your hood
is ventilated well it should be enough to diffuse CO2 into the ambient
atmosphere. Though CO2 is denser than air so it may not diffuse all that
quickly.

All that said I don't think your sugar yeast reactor will be generating
enough CO2 for what becomes trapped beneath your hood to become a problem.
Since your not using a diffuser most of the CO2 getting into your water
will be due to what is sitting under your hood anyway--trying to avoid any
CO2 surface build-up may scrub your whole effort of using CO2 entirely.
Without a diffuser or a ladder the bubbles just aren't in the water long
enough to make a major impact in and of themselves.

Keep in mind that while Bettas may be able to obtain oxygen from the air
they will rely on their gills when adequate dissolved oxygen is available
in the water. So if the CO2 levels become a problem you will be able to
measure it in your water via your pH shift after the reactor mix starts
working.

Your first indication of a problem may be your Corydoras skimming the
surface--though not as efficient as the labyrinth equipped Betta they too
can get oxygen from the air using their swim bladder.

[Eric]

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:49:19 -0500, southpaw wrote
(in article >):

> Just a quick question.
>
> I've got a planted seven gallon tank, cycled, with a male betta, 2
> cherry barbs, and two corydoras trileanatus. I've been toying with the
> idea of setting up a basic DIY 2 liter yeast reactor, as my plants
> (some anachris, a red tiger lotus, and some didiplus) are doing ok,
> but not much more better than that.
>
> I've done my research. I have fairly hard water tap water that tests
> out in the 1.2-1.3 range with slightly above neutral Ph, so I'm not
> worried about buffer crashes. But since I'm just bubbling the CO2
> straight to the surface and not into a diffuser, I'm worried that a
> surface buildup might harm my surface breather. The hood on this tank
> is vented. Will that be enough to keep CO2 above the water surface
> from reaching toxic concentrations?
>
> Thanks for any help.

Seven gallons? Just be patient. If your plants are growing at all, it won't
take them long to fill the entire tank. Also, are you maxed out on light? I
takes quite a bit of light to get to the point where using CO2 could help.

-E

[southpaw]

On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 04:32:05 GMT, Eric > wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:49:19 -0500, southpaw wrote
>(in article >):
>
>> Just a quick question.
>>
>> I've got a planted seven gallon tank, cycled, with a male betta, 2
>> cherry barbs, and two corydoras trileanatus. I've been toying with the
>> idea of setting up a basic DIY 2 liter yeast reactor, as my plants
>> (some anachris, a red tiger lotus, and some didiplus) are doing ok,
>> but not much more better than that.
>>
>> I've done my research. I have fairly hard water tap water that tests
>> out in the 1.2-1.3 range with slightly above neutral Ph, so I'm not
>> worried about buffer crashes. But since I'm just bubbling the CO2
>> straight to the surface and not into a diffuser, I'm worried that a
>> surface buildup might harm my surface breather. The hood on this tank
>> is vented. Will that be enough to keep CO2 above the water surface
>> from reaching toxic concentrations?
>>
>> Thanks for any help.
>
>Seven gallons? Just be patient. If your plants are growing at all, it won't
>take them long to fill the entire tank. Also, are you maxed out on light? I
>takes quite a bit of light to get to the point where using CO2 could help.
>
>-E


Thanks for the responses. Yeah I kind of figured that for a tank this
small CO2 of any kind is bordering on overkill. Bottom line, the
second I see anything like abnormal fish behavior I'll ditch the idea.
Is there any benefit to short term CO2 use just to give plants a
boost? Or does that just result in a die off when the CO2 is cut off?
Plus I imagine the possible Ph swing makes this a bad idea also.

Thanks again.

[dc]

southpaw > wrote in
:

> Thanks for the responses. Yeah I kind of figured that for a tank this
> small CO2 of any kind is bordering on overkill. Bottom line, the

Consider Flourish Excel by Seachem as an alternative. It is an organic
carbon compound and substitutes for CO2 in photosynthesis. It will not
affect your pH and will not harm your fish if you dose appropriately. A
500 ml bottle should last you a good while and give your plants the boost
you're after.

[southpaw]

On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 00:45:03 -0500, dc > wrote:

>southpaw > wrote in
:
>
>> Thanks for the responses. Yeah I kind of figured that for a tank this
>> small CO2 of any kind is bordering on overkill. Bottom line, the
>
>Consider Flourish Excel by Seachem as an alternative. It is an organic
>carbon compound and substitutes for CO2 in photosynthesis. It will not
>affect your pH and will not harm your fish if you dose appropriately. A
>500 ml bottle should last you a good while and give your plants the boost
>you're after.

Very interesting product. Aquariumguys.com might get another 10 bucks
out of me... : )

[Pete]

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 19:49:19 -0700, southpaw > wrote:

>Just a quick question.
>
>I've got a planted seven gallon tank, cycled, with a male betta, 2
>cherry barbs, and two corydoras trileanatus. I've been toying with the
>idea of setting up a basic DIY 2 liter yeast reactor, as my plants
>(some anachris, a red tiger lotus, and some didiplus) are doing ok,
>but not much more better than that.
>
>I've done my research. I have fairly hard water tap water that tests
>out in the 1.2-1.3 range with slightly above neutral Ph, so I'm not
>worried about buffer crashes. But since I'm just bubbling the CO2
>straight to the surface and not into a diffuser, I'm worried that a
>surface buildup might harm my surface breather. The hood on this tank
>is vented. Will that be enough to keep CO2 above the water surface
>from reaching toxic concentrations?
>
>Thanks for any help.
I have around 10-12 gourami in my tank which has pressurised CO2
bringing the pH down from around 7.7 to 6.2, so there's a lot of CO2
being disolved, and they're showing no signs of distress, and they
still take a gulp of 'air' now and then.
Each of my 2 reactors is disolving around 8 bubbles/sec, a little does
escape, so there's probably a bit of a layer of CO2 above the water.

There's no point in letting the CO2 just bubble to the surface, you're
probably losing about 99% that way - no bubbles should actually reach
the surface, they should disolve before they get to the top.
Use a reactor or diffuser of some kind.

Wild gourami use their labyrinth to store air when the water in their
native environment is so poor that it can't hold oxygen. But their
gills provide sufficient oxygen in normal water.
Some live in little more than large muddy puddles.

Good luck
Pete

[Tynk]

Pete wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 19:49:19 -0700, southpaw > wrote:
>
> >Just a quick question.
> >
> >I've got a planted seven gallon tank, cycled, with a male betta, 2
> >cherry barbs, and two corydoras trileanatus. I've been toying with the
> >idea of setting up a basic DIY 2 liter yeast reactor, as my plants
> >(some anachris, a red tiger lotus, and some didiplus) are doing ok,
> >but not much more better than that.
> >
> >I've done my research. I have fairly hard water tap water that tests
> >out in the 1.2-1.3 range with slightly above neutral Ph, so I'm not
> >worried about buffer crashes. But since I'm just bubbling the CO2
> >straight to the surface and not into a diffuser, I'm worried that a
> >surface buildup might harm my surface breather. The hood on this tank
> >is vented. Will that be enough to keep CO2 above the water surface
> >from reaching toxic concentrations?
> >
> >Thanks for any help.
> I have around 10-12 gourami in my tank which has pressurised CO2
> bringing the pH down from around 7.7 to 6.2, so there's a lot of CO2
> being disolved, and they're showing no signs of distress, and they
> still take a gulp of 'air' now and then.
> Each of my 2 reactors is disolving around 8 bubbles/sec, a little does
> escape, so there's probably a bit of a layer of CO2 above the water.
>
> There's no point in letting the CO2 just bubble to the surface, you're
> probably losing about 99% that way - no bubbles should actually reach
> the surface, they should disolve before they get to the top.
> Use a reactor or diffuser of some kind.
>
> Wild gourami use their labyrinth to store air when the water in their
> native environment is so poor that it can't hold oxygen. But their
> gills provide sufficient oxygen in normal water.
> Some live in little more than large muddy puddles.
>
> Good luck
> Pete

Gouramis and bettas don't "store" air in their labyrinth organs. They
use them like we use our lungs.
It's a secondary means of getting oxygen. Mainly, they get it through
the water via their gills. When it's depleated, they get it from the
surface via their labyrinth.
Now, they always must be able to get to the surface, no matter how well
oxygenated the water is, or they will drown!
This is a fact.

[southpaw]

On 22 Sep 2006 09:27:21 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:


>> There's no point in letting the CO2 just bubble to the surface, you're
>> probably losing about 99% that way - no bubbles should actually reach
>> the surface, they should disolve before they get to the top.
>> Use a reactor or diffuser of some kind.

Is a diffuser necessary in a smaller tank? Right now I'm running the
Co2 through an airstone, and the Ph only dropped from 7.3-7.4 to
neutral. I'm thinking maneuvering the airstone closer to the filter
intake tomorrow might be a good idea. What are some DIY mini diffuser
designs?

>>
>> Wild gourami use their labyrinth to store air when the water in their
>> native environment is so poor that it can't hold oxygen. But their
>> gills provide sufficient oxygen in normal water.
>> Some live in little more than large muddy puddles.
>>
>> Good luck
>> Pete
>
>Gouramis and bettas don't "store" air in their labyrinth organs. They
>use them like we use our lungs.
>It's a secondary means of getting oxygen. Mainly, they get it through
>the water via their gills. When it's depleated, they get it from the
>surface via their labyrinth.
>Now, they always must be able to get to the surface, no matter how well
>oxygenated the water is, or they will drown!
>This is a fact.

No signs of stress from anyone in the tank.

[Pete]

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 00:11:38 -0700, southpaw > wrote:

>On 22 Sep 2006 09:27:21 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:
>
>
>>> There's no point in letting the CO2 just bubble to the surface, you're
>>> probably losing about 99% that way - no bubbles should actually reach
>>> the surface, they should disolve before they get to the top.
>>> Use a reactor or diffuser of some kind.
>
>Is a diffuser necessary in a smaller tank? Right now I'm running the
>Co2 through an airstone, and the Ph only dropped from 7.3-7.4 to
>neutral. I'm thinking maneuvering the airstone closer to the filter
>intake tomorrow might be a good idea. What are some DIY mini diffuser
>designs?
>
Regardless of the size of your tank, whichever method you use, the
idea is to get all the CO2 disolved into the water, and to distribute
the dissolved CO2 evenly in the tank water. Ideally, there should not
be any CO2 bubbles breaking the surface of the water.

I use 2 Aqua Medic 500 reactors. I use the out output of my eheim 2217
cannister filter to drive 1 of them, the other is the AM500-M which
has a built-in powehead.

If you move the airstone close to the intake of your power filter so
that the bubbles enter the intake it should help breakup the bubbles
and diffuse them, do note though that the output of most power filters
are located at the top of the tank, you may want to consider turning
the spraybar output down towards the middle of the tank to help even
distribution of CO2. I have read that on occasion, a buildup of CO2
can cause a CO2-lock in the power filter (like a big bubble of CO2
around the impeller) which can cause the filter to fail.

I only use CO2 when the lights are on as plants do not use CO2 unless
there's enough light, it also give the fish a break from quite high
levels of CO2. I do note that a parrot fish that was given to me is
much less active when the pH ges close to 6, I'll proably swap him at
my LFS, the anglefish don't seem to mind.
I still loose a little CO2, but that's probably because I drive them
quite hard at around 8 bubbles/sec. This gets my pH down from around
7.2ish to 6.2ish within an hour of the lights coming on.
I have no experience of diffusers, but they are well regarded.
If you go to http://www.barrreport.com/forums/index.php?
Tom describes a DIY reactor he designed.
You'll also find just about everything you need to know about growing
plants and CO2.

Good luck
Pete

[southpaw]

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 11:53:01 +0100, Pete
> wrote:

>On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 00:11:38 -0700, southpaw > wrote:
>
>>On 22 Sep 2006 09:27:21 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> There's no point in letting the CO2 just bubble to the surface, you're
>>>> probably losing about 99% that way - no bubbles should actually reach
>>>> the surface, they should disolve before they get to the top.
>>>> Use a reactor or diffuser of some kind.
>>
>>Is a diffuser necessary in a smaller tank? Right now I'm running the
>>Co2 through an airstone, and the Ph only dropped from 7.3-7.4 to
>>neutral. I'm thinking maneuvering the airstone closer to the filter
>>intake tomorrow might be a good idea. What are some DIY mini diffuser
>>designs?
>>
>Regardless of the size of your tank, whichever method you use, the
>idea is to get all the CO2 disolved into the water, and to distribute
>the dissolved CO2 evenly in the tank water. Ideally, there should not
>be any CO2 bubbles breaking the surface of the water.
>
>I use 2 Aqua Medic 500 reactors. I use the out output of my eheim 2217
>cannister filter to drive 1 of them, the other is the AM500-M which
>has a built-in powehead.
>
>If you move the airstone close to the intake of your power filter so
>that the bubbles enter the intake it should help breakup the bubbles
>and diffuse them, do note though that the output of most power filters
>are located at the top of the tank, you may want to consider turning
>the spraybar output down towards the middle of the tank to help even
>distribution of CO2. I have read that on occasion, a buildup of CO2
>can cause a CO2-lock in the power filter (like a big bubble of CO2
>around the impeller) which can cause the filter to fail.
>
>I only use CO2 when the lights are on as plants do not use CO2 unless
>there's enough light, it also give the fish a break from quite high
>levels of CO2. I do note that a parrot fish that was given to me is
>much less active when the pH ges close to 6, I'll proably swap him at
>my LFS, the anglefish don't seem to mind.
>I still loose a little CO2, but that's probably because I drive them
>quite hard at around 8 bubbles/sec. This gets my pH down from around
>7.2ish to 6.2ish within an hour of the lights coming on.
>I have no experience of diffusers, but they are well regarded.
>If you go to http://www.barrreport.com/forums/index.php?
>Tom describes a DIY reactor he designed.
>You'll also find just about everything you need to know about growing
>plants and CO2.
>
>Good luck
>Pete

Interesting insights Pete. I moved the airstone under the filter
intake, and about every 30-40 seconds the output sends out a bunch of
small bubbles. Some hit the surface and break, but I'd say 30% is fine
enough to dissolve immediately, and another 25-30% gets caught under
some of the floating lotus leaves. There's a cheap diffuser for ya,
and its not even DIY! : )

I think turning off the CO2 at night makes sense also, and I think I
will start doing that. Although I have read the school that says 24/7
allows a concentration the plants can use for the morning, and
sidesteps possible ph swings. I take it you disagree here?

Thanks for the advice man.

[Nikki Casali]

Pete wrote:

> I still loose a little CO2, but that's probably because I drive them
> quite hard at around 8 bubbles/sec. This gets my pH down from around
> 7.2ish to 6.2ish within an hour of the lights coming on.

1pH? That's quite a CO2 loss. My tanks stay at the same level during the
night after the CO2 cuts out. I think that's because my plants produce
just enough CO2 to counterbalance the loss that occurs through surface
agitation. I have very little agitation happening at the water surface
though. How do you count 8 bubbles per second? My brain just don't work
that fast!

Nikki

[Pete]

>
>Interesting insights Pete. I moved the airstone under the filter
>intake, and about every 30-40 seconds the output sends out a bunch of
>small bubbles. Some hit the surface and break, but I'd say 30% is fine
>enough to dissolve immediately, and another 25-30% gets caught under
>some of the floating lotus leaves. There's a cheap diffuser for ya,
>and its not even DIY! : )
>
>I think turning off the CO2 at night makes sense also, and I think I
>will start doing that. Although I have read the school that says 24/7
>allows a concentration the plants can use for the morning, and
>sidesteps possible ph swings. I take it you disagree here?
>
>Thanks for the advice man.

I used to run my CO2 24x7 then read several articles at The Barr
Report site that suggested not doing this (it gives the fish a break,
and the plants do not use CO2 when the lights are off). I tried it and
the plants are growing just as well, the fish do not appear to get
stressed by the pH swing and I save some CO2 - so that's my reasoning.

Best wishes
Pete

[Pete]

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 23:49:45 +0100, Nikki Casali
> wrote:

>Pete wrote:
>
>> I still loose a little CO2, but that's probably because I drive them
>> quite hard at around 8 bubbles/sec. This gets my pH down from around
>> 7.2ish to 6.2ish within an hour of the lights coming on.
>
>1pH? That's quite a CO2 loss. My tanks stay at the same level during the
>night after the CO2 cuts out. I think that's because my plants produce
>just enough CO2 to counterbalance the loss that occurs through surface
>agitation. I have very little agitation happening at the water surface
>though. How do you count 8 bubbles per second? My brain just don't work
>that fast!
>
>Nikki

8 bubbles/sec is a guess, but I don't think I'm far off.
I use a wet/dry(bio) filter alongside my cannister filter and that
looses some CO2 overnight.
Tom Barr advised me to block off the breathing tube so it just acts as
a trickle filter. I've done this, but have to confess I haven't
checked what the pH swing is now.
I'll have a look when the lights come on later and post an update.

Best wishes
Pete

[Pete]

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 23:49:45 +0100, Nikki Casali
> wrote:

>Pete wrote:
>
>> I still loose a little CO2, but that's probably because I drive them
>> quite hard at around 8 bubbles/sec. This gets my pH down from around
>> 7.2ish to 6.2ish within an hour of the lights coming on.
>
>1pH? That's quite a CO2 loss. My tanks stay at the same level during the
>night after the CO2 cuts out. I think that's because my plants produce
>just enough CO2 to counterbalance the loss that occurs through surface
>agitation. I have very little agitation happening at the water surface
>though. How do you count 8 bubbles per second? My brain just don't work
>that fast!
>
>Nikki
Just checked the pH prior to the lights coming on - it was 6.4, so
it's only dropping by about .3 during lights-out (no CO2)

Pete

[Eric]

On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 00:45:03 -0500, dc wrote
(in article >):

> southpaw > wrote in
> :
>
>> Thanks for the responses. Yeah I kind of figured that for a tank this
>> small CO2 of any kind is bordering on overkill. Bottom line, the
>
> Consider Flourish Excel by Seachem as an alternative. It is an organic
> carbon compound and substitutes for CO2 in photosynthesis. It will not
> affect your pH and will not harm your fish if you dose appropriately. A
> 500 ml bottle should last you a good while and give your plants the boost
> you're after.
>

Again, if you're not reaching the limit on light, Flourish won't help either.

-E

[southpaw]

Update: 2L yeast reactor piped into a power filter and emitting a fine
bubble spray of C02 equals 3 inches of growth on an anacharis bunch,
almost 2 inches on some didiplus, and a red tiger lotus that has leaf
veins popping out like the Hulk and possible pearling (not quite sure
what that looks like, but I see bubbles on the leaf underside.) Now if
I can just get my nitrates down to the 5-10 ppm range, I will be one
happy fishkeeper.

Watching the corydoras doing their hoover act on the new growth is too
much fun. I'm realizing how dorky that sounds as I type it, but hey,
you people will understand. : )

Peace.