Large Water Changes When Playing With Water Chemistry

[Jolly Fisherman]

I was wondering if any of you take any special precautions when adding
tap water that has different chemistry than the tank water.

I'm assuming it would be important to either *not* do a large water
change *or* to add water very slowly, over a period of time when one
is doing say, CO2 injection, or is using driftwood, coral, etc. to
alter water parameters.

Is this true, or is whether you can do it based on certain guidelines
re the extent of chemical difference or fish species involved?

TIA

[swarvegorilla]

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
>
> I was wondering if any of you take any special precautions when adding
> tap water that has different chemistry than the tank water.
>
> I'm assuming it would be important to either *not* do a large water
> change *or* to add water very slowly, over a period of time when one
> is doing say, CO2 injection, or is using driftwood, coral, etc. to
> alter water parameters.
>
> Is this true, or is whether you can do it based on certain guidelines
> re the extent of chemical difference or fish species involved?
>
> TIA

depends on the fish
sometimes merely matching temp is enuf
others they need a whole bloody week of acclimatisation
sigh
it's always the tricky ones ya get cut about losin too

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 12:22:45 +1000, "swarvegorilla"
> wrote:

>
>"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> I was wondering if any of you take any special precautions when adding
>> tap water that has different chemistry than the tank water.
>>
>> I'm assuming it would be important to either *not* do a large water
>> change *or* to add water very slowly, over a period of time when one
>> is doing say, CO2 injection, or is using driftwood, coral, etc. to
>> alter water parameters.
>>
>> Is this true, or is whether you can do it based on certain guidelines
>> re the extent of chemical difference or fish species involved?
>>
>> TIA
>
>depends on the fish
>sometimes merely matching temp is enuf
>others they need a whole bloody week of acclimatisation
>sigh

A Week!?! Holy cow.

>it's always the tricky ones ya get cut about losin too

Yeah that's a shame.


Maybe you could help me with a more specific scenario?

I have a 55 gal planted tank. Tap water is pH 7.2, kH2, GH 5.
I have large chunks of Malaysian driftwood, that after 6 months
preparation probably still aren't ready for a tank, but look good
anyway. When sitting in tap water it causes a pH crash in no time. So
I'm preventing that in the tank with crushed coral in the filter. But
I still need to do large weekly water changes due to the driftwood
soup and fertilizer routine.

Now I'd like to add CO2 injection. I'm, expecting to add more crushed
coral to further raise the kH to a suitable level. If all goes
according to plan there would be a difference between the tank and tap
of about pH 6.8 & 7.2, kH 2 & 4 or so, GH yet unknown.

Is this too extreme for big water changes for Angels, blue rams,
otocinculous, Amano & Red Cherry Shrimp, Tai Flying fox, SAE's? Or
does it also have to do with the individual and its health?

Thanks

[Bill Stock]

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 12:22:45 +1000, "swarvegorilla"
> > wrote:
>

> Maybe you could help me with a more specific scenario?
>
> I have a 55 gal planted tank. Tap water is pH 7.2, kH2, GH 5.
> I have large chunks of Malaysian driftwood, that after 6 months
> preparation probably still aren't ready for a tank, but look good
> anyway. When sitting in tap water it causes a pH crash in no time. So
> I'm preventing that in the tank with crushed coral in the filter. But
> I still need to do large weekly water changes due to the driftwood
> soup and fertilizer routine.
>
> Now I'd like to add CO2 injection. I'm, expecting to add more crushed
> coral to further raise the kH to a suitable level. If all goes
> according to plan there would be a difference between the tank and tap
> of about pH 6.8 & 7.2, kH 2 & 4 or so, GH yet unknown.
>
> Is this too extreme for big water changes for Angels, blue rams,
> otocinculous, Amano & Red Cherry Shrimp, Tai Flying fox, SAE's? Or
> does it also have to do with the individual and its health?
>
> Thanks

Not quite your setup, but I have a 55 with CO2, crushed coral, Otos and
SAEs, etc. I'm sort of doing the EI thing too, except I don't add Nitrates.
My PH is at 6.8, KH was 5 last time I checked and tap water is about PH 7.4,
although harder in the winter. I change about 40% of the water every week
with no obvious signs of distress. I've lost a couple of Otos along the way,
but I really can't attribute this to water changes.

I change about 50% of the water on the Gold Fish tank every week and the
smallest fish will occasionally start flashing. If this happens I will stop
refilling and add the rest of the water later. I suspect it's the large
change in the Nitrates causing the one fish to flash. A better solution is
in the works.

[swarvegorilla]

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 12:22:45 +1000, "swarvegorilla"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> I was wondering if any of you take any special precautions when adding
>>> tap water that has different chemistry than the tank water.
>>>
>>> I'm assuming it would be important to either *not* do a large water
>>> change *or* to add water very slowly, over a period of time when one
>>> is doing say, CO2 injection, or is using driftwood, coral, etc. to
>>> alter water parameters.
>>>
>>> Is this true, or is whether you can do it based on certain guidelines
>>> re the extent of chemical difference or fish species involved?
>>>
>>> TIA
>>
>>depends on the fish
>>sometimes merely matching temp is enuf
>>others they need a whole bloody week of acclimatisation
>>sigh
>
> A Week!?! Holy cow.
>
>>it's always the tricky ones ya get cut about losin too
>
> Yeah that's a shame.
>
>
> Maybe you could help me with a more specific scenario?
>
> I have a 55 gal planted tank. Tap water is pH 7.2, kH2, GH 5.
> I have large chunks of Malaysian driftwood, that after 6 months
> preparation probably still aren't ready for a tank, but look good
> anyway. When sitting in tap water it causes a pH crash in no time. So
> I'm preventing that in the tank with crushed coral in the filter. But
> I still need to do large weekly water changes due to the driftwood
> soup and fertilizer routine.
>
> Now I'd like to add CO2 injection. I'm, expecting to add more crushed
> coral to further raise the kH to a suitable level. If all goes
> according to plan there would be a difference between the tank and tap
> of about pH 6.8 & 7.2, kH 2 & 4 or so, GH yet unknown.
>
> Is this too extreme for big water changes for Angels, blue rams,
> otocinculous, Amano & Red Cherry Shrimp, Tai Flying fox, SAE's? Or
> does it also have to do with the individual and its health?
>
> Thanks

You have the right plan with the water changes
keep them small and regular
stability is the key here
I'd probably say your shrimp will be the 'canarys' as it were
start losing them or rams and you have to look at your regime
otherwise keep up the good work hey
Are your lights powerful enough for the plants to take advantage of the
extra co2?

[swarvegorilla]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 12:22:45 +1000, "swarvegorilla"
>> > wrote:
>>
>
>> Maybe you could help me with a more specific scenario?
>>
>> I have a 55 gal planted tank. Tap water is pH 7.2, kH2, GH 5.
>> I have large chunks of Malaysian driftwood, that after 6 months
>> preparation probably still aren't ready for a tank, but look good
>> anyway. When sitting in tap water it causes a pH crash in no time. So
>> I'm preventing that in the tank with crushed coral in the filter. But
>> I still need to do large weekly water changes due to the driftwood
>> soup and fertilizer routine.
>>
>> Now I'd like to add CO2 injection. I'm, expecting to add more crushed
>> coral to further raise the kH to a suitable level. If all goes
>> according to plan there would be a difference between the tank and tap
>> of about pH 6.8 & 7.2, kH 2 & 4 or so, GH yet unknown.
>>
>> Is this too extreme for big water changes for Angels, blue rams,
>> otocinculous, Amano & Red Cherry Shrimp, Tai Flying fox, SAE's? Or
>> does it also have to do with the individual and its health?
>>
>> Thanks
>
> Not quite your setup, but I have a 55 with CO2, crushed coral, Otos and
> SAEs, etc. I'm sort of doing the EI thing too, except I don't add
> Nitrates. My PH is at 6.8, KH was 5 last time I checked and tap water is
> about PH 7.4, although harder in the winter. I change about 40% of the
> water every week with no obvious signs of distress. I've lost a couple of
> Otos along the way, but I really can't attribute this to water changes.
>
> I change about 50% of the water on the Gold Fish tank every week and the
> smallest fish will occasionally start flashing. If this happens I will
> stop refilling and add the rest of the water later. I suspect it's the
> large change in the Nitrates causing the one fish to flash. A better
> solution is in the works.

nitrates, among other things.
changes in water chemistry will affect the fish surfaces exposed to it.
Slowing down when you notice a reaction is always a good plan.
I go by the theory that if your fish look relieved when you water change
then your not doing enough of them!
Ideal reaction is..... no reaction!
:-)
Ottos need a fair amount of food to browse on too
Have been having great results, not crowding and feeding vege flake and
frozen.

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:24:27 +1000, "swarvegorilla"
> wrote:

>You have the right plan with the water changes
>keep them small and regular
>stability is the key here

Yes. Stability and KISS are my goals. Otherwise there's a lot of
room for me to screw up.

>I'd probably say your shrimp will be the 'canarys' as it were
>start losing them or rams and you have to look at your regime

The shrimp always seem to be hiding or blending in so they're hard to
tell. (The angels try to eat them if they are too bold). Actually I
don't have the rams yet. I'm not going to get any until I've made up
my mind about things.

>otherwise keep up the good work hey
>Are your lights powerful enough for the plants to take advantage of the
>extra co2?

I *think* it's borderline. Right now I have 2x 65watt compact
fluorescent = 2.36 w/g. Basically I'm just trying to get information
and formulate plans for future changes. I was more serious about high
light + CO2 in the past, but shelved the idea because it was taking
too much time adjusting the water chemistry to support it on a running
tank and it looked like I was going to have to raise the pH too high
to get kH right with the approach I was using.

My plants aren't ideal, but things are improving. I'd like to see
them even better, and try things like riccia, but I'm not sure doing a
lot of regular gardening is really for me. The reality is, for my
lifestyle, I probably *should* be focusing on a stable low light tank.
My main concerns are always the fish, and limiting my time doing
maintenance. They've got me busy with all their fry. Frankly it's
already much too much.

Thanks to you and Bill for your input.

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> I change about 50% of the water on the Gold Fish tank
> every week

Good for Cloans, too..

> and the smallest fish will occasionally start
> flashing. If this happens I will stop refilling and add
> the rest of the water later. I suspect it's the large
> change in the Nitrates causing the one fish to flash.

Would you mind describe its behaviour while flashing?

--
cu
Marco

[Marco Schwarz]

> Cloans
Clowns..
--
cu
Marco

[Bill Stock]

"Marco Schwarz" > wrote in message
...
> Hi..
>
>> I change about 50% of the water on the Gold Fish tank
>> every week
>
> Good for Cloans, too..


Not sure I get this one. The Clones and the GF will be in alternate
universes, at least as far as they are concerned.

>> and the smallest fish will occasionally start
>> flashing. If this happens I will stop refilling and add
>> the rest of the water later. I suspect it's the large
>> change in the Nitrates causing the one fish to flash.
>
> Would you mind describe its behaviour while flashing?

He darts around the tank at moderate speed, heading for the surface, but
never actually jumps out. Hasn't done it the last few water changes, which
is a good thing.




>
> --
> cu
> Marco

[swarvegorilla]

They've got me busy with all their fry. Frankly it's
> already much too much.
>

:)
ah yes, tis the life tho' no?

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 00:51:09 +1000, "swarvegorilla"
> wrote:

> They've got me busy with all their fry. Frankly it's
>> already much too much.
>>
>
>:)
>ah yes, tis the life tho' no?

Indeed. Its funny how MTS creeps up on ya. :)

Those thoughts that seem so innocent at first starting with "wouldn't
it be nice if..." are real trouble. ;)

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> He darts around the tank at moderate speed, heading for
> the surface, but never actually jumps out. Hasn't done it
> the last few water changes, which is a good thing.

Thanks for the description. Is (or was) there any
significant temperature difference between tap(?) water and
tank water..?

--
cu
Marco

[Bill Stock]

"Marco Schwarz" > wrote in message
...
> Hi..
>
>> He darts around the tank at moderate speed, heading for
>> the surface, but never actually jumps out. Hasn't done it
>> the last few water changes, which is a good thing.
>
> Thanks for the description. Is (or was) there any
> significant temperature difference between tap(?) water and
> tank water..?

I always match the two before I start, so the temperature rarely varies by
even .1 degree during a change. Although it will vary by as much as .5
degrees some times due to variations in water temp, tap quality, errant
toilet flushes, etc. So I don't think temperature is the issue.

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

[...temperature difference...]
> I always match the two before I start, so the temperature
> rarely varies by even .1 degree during a change. Although
> it will vary by as much as .5 degrees some times due to
> variations in water temp, tap quality, errant toilet
> flushes, etc. So I don't think temperature is the issue.

Hmm.., possibly not the temperature difference (and the
quantity of the water changes) itself (themselves) but its
(their) effect(s) on the solved gases equilibrium..?

--
cu
Marco

[swarvegorilla]

"Marco Schwarz" > wrote in message
...
> Hi..
>
> [...temperature difference...]
>> I always match the two before I start, so the temperature
>> rarely varies by even .1 degree during a change. Although
>> it will vary by as much as .5 degrees some times due to
>> variations in water temp, tap quality, errant toilet
>> flushes, etc. So I don't think temperature is the issue.
>
> Hmm.., possibly not the temperature difference (and the
> quantity of the water changes) itself (themselves) but its
> (their) effect(s) on the solved gases equilibrium..?
>
> --
> cu
> Marco


I would say your tapwater may be a bit higher in ph than your aquarium
water.
that rapid change upwards usually stresses fish a bit and gets them flashing
slightly lower ph water added is much less stressful.
not telling ya to use ph down here
just if the ph is higher in your water your changing with
do smaller changes more frequently
the aim is to water change with no reaction
then ya know your water is constanbtly good

[Bill Stock]

"swarvegorilla" > wrote in message
u...
>
> "Marco Schwarz" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hi..
>>
>> [...temperature difference...]
>>> I always match the two before I start, so the temperature
>>> rarely varies by even .1 degree during a change. Although
>>> it will vary by as much as .5 degrees some times due to
>>> variations in water temp, tap quality, errant toilet
>>> flushes, etc. So I don't think temperature is the issue.
>>
>> Hmm.., possibly not the temperature difference (and the
>> quantity of the water changes) itself (themselves) but its
>> (their) effect(s) on the solved gases equilibrium..?
>>
>> --
>> cu
>> Marco
>
>
> I would say your tapwater may be a bit higher in ph than your aquarium
> water.
> that rapid change upwards usually stresses fish a bit and gets them
> flashing
> slightly lower ph water added is much less stressful.
> not telling ya to use ph down here
> just if the ph is higher in your water your changing with
> do smaller changes more frequently
> the aim is to water change with no reaction
> then ya know your water is constanbtly good


I think you guys are on the right track, it's definitely some mild Osmotic
Shock, probably the big change in DOCs. I have seen Nitrates as high as 160
on this tank, although I try to keep it below 80. They'll be moving to a
bigger tank with a55 gallon sump and auto water changer in a few months, so
they should be happy fish.

[swarvegorilla]

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 00:51:09 +1000, "swarvegorilla"
> > wrote:
>
>> They've got me busy with all their fry. Frankly it's
>>> already much too much.
>>>
>>
>>:)
>>ah yes, tis the life tho' no?
>
> Indeed. Its funny how MTS creeps up on ya. :)
>
> Those thoughts that seem so innocent at first starting with "wouldn't
> it be nice if..." are real trouble. ;)

your tellin me
tomorrow I start on a new 6x2x2 foot long marine display.
bouncin' off the walls
and me blue claw yabby has eggs
:) w000t

[swarvegorilla]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Marco Schwarz" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hi..
>>
>>> He darts around the tank at moderate speed, heading for
>>> the surface, but never actually jumps out. Hasn't done it
>>> the last few water changes, which is a good thing.
>>
>> Thanks for the description. Is (or was) there any
>> significant temperature difference between tap(?) water and
>> tank water..?
>
> I always match the two before I start, so the temperature rarely varies by
> even .1 degree during a change. Although it will vary by as much as .5
> degrees some times due to variations in water temp, tap quality, errant
> toilet flushes, etc. So I don't think temperature is the issue.
>
>
>

could easy be a pH or hardness shift
remember increasing pH rapidly is much more dangerous than lowering it
quickly.
changes in this are basically changes in water pressure on the fish. A bit
of scratchin and stuff is to be expected
I'd slow the rate ya add the new water in. Break it up by a few hours
can ya keep filter running with tank a bit low?