pH fluxuation

[D&M]

Hey Guys,
Got some driftwood for my plecos in my 90g. Over the last 4 weeks, the pH
has lowered from 8.5 to 6.0. The tap water is 7.2-8.0 (Depends on the week,
draws from 7 wells). So far, no adverse affects during water changes, as I
introduce the new water slowly over a period of an hour or two. After the
water change, the pH is about 6.8. All of the fish in this tank prefer
6.0-7.5. After a week, it balances to 6.0 (at least, that's the lowest my
scale reads).

I'm just wondering if there is anything that could cause problems/adverse
effects during introduction of the new (higher pH) water during changes.

To cover the bases, I keep close watch on docs, etc.

Cheers

[Dinky]

"D&M" > wrote in message
...
| Hey Guys,
| Got some driftwood for my plecos in my 90g. Over the last 4 weeks,
the pH
| has lowered from 8.5 to 6.0. The tap water is 7.2-8.0 (Depends on
the week,
| draws from 7 wells). So far, no adverse affects during water
changes, as I
| introduce the new water slowly over a period of an hour or two.
After the
| water change, the pH is about 6.8. All of the fish in this tank
prefer
| 6.0-7.5. After a week, it balances to 6.0 (at least, that's the
lowest my
| scale reads).
|
| I'm just wondering if there is anything that could cause
problems/adverse
| effects during introduction of the new (higher pH) water during
changes.
|


The fluctuation in PH *could* stress your fish out. I was in your
situation for a while, so I went and bought a bale of peat moss and
treated all my water with it to lower the PH before adding it to my
tank. Might want to look into this.

billy

[NetMax]

"Dinky" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> "D&M" > wrote in message
> ...
> | Hey Guys,
> | Got some driftwood for my plecos in my 90g. Over the last 4 weeks,
> the pH
> | has lowered from 8.5 to 6.0. The tap water is 7.2-8.0 (Depends on
> the week,
> | draws from 7 wells). So far, no adverse affects during water
> changes, as I
> | introduce the new water slowly over a period of an hour or two.
> After the
> | water change, the pH is about 6.8. All of the fish in this tank
> prefer
> | 6.0-7.5. After a week, it balances to 6.0 (at least, that's the
> lowest my
> | scale reads).
> |
> | I'm just wondering if there is anything that could cause
> problems/adverse
> | effects during introduction of the new (higher pH) water during
> changes.
> |
>
>
> The fluctuation in PH *could* stress your fish out. I was in your
> situation for a while, so I went and bought a bale of peat moss and
> treated all my water with it to lower the PH before adding it to my
> tank. Might want to look into this.
>
> billy

My concern would that your kH must be very low for your pH to bounce like
that, and a low kH can be very problematic, leading to a pH crash. Your
driftwood might not be the culprit (OTS?)
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml#ots and directly
above, I list the environment requirements for nitrifying bacteria. By
your pH bouncing between 7+ and 6-, your bacteria population might not be
very stable, making a pH change to 7.5+ dangerous if there is any NH4
accumulation while at 6.0pH.
--
http://www.NetMax.tk/

[D&M]

Well, I wasn't going to go into the whole story, but since it's been brought
up....

This tank is about 1 1/2 years old, powered by a Fluval 304 and 404, and one
Emperor 400. Airated by one monster Rena (never hear it). This tank is also
UV sterilized.

This tank has been steady the last 14 months with an 8.0 - 8.5. Cleaned like
clockwork ever two weeks via python deep gravel clean, 25-30%

Only thing new in the last 8 months is the driftwood.

I watch closely while vacuuming under the logs, etc, checking for excess
buildups of poop, uneaten food, etc., and it's actually very clean. I got a
30g that's messy, has to be cleaned weekly, this 90g is like it's own
ecosystem it cleans itself up so well. Water is very clear other than slight
tanin coloration as there's no carbon in the system. When I deep vacuum,
it's very clean... suprisingly compared to the mess other fish make in my
other tanks.

dKH is 3, dGH is 27. This is where probably quite a bit of problem lies as
the buffer is low (KH). Trying to locate where the buffer is going when
nothing has changed in maintenance nor additions to the tank is another
story. Tap has a dKH of 15 which is great, going to bed, so no time for a
tap GH test right now. Ammonia and nit test 0.

The fish don't care, haven't lost any, they're healthy as can be. Something
just said to me I better check to make sure it's ok adding higher pH water
into their system on a regular basis... have a few prize fish in this tank I
want to take care of.

Cheers

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Dinky" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > "D&M" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > | Hey Guys,
> > | Got some driftwood for my plecos in my 90g. Over the last 4 weeks,
> > the pH
> > | has lowered from 8.5 to 6.0. The tap water is 7.2-8.0 (Depends on
> > the week,
> > | draws from 7 wells). So far, no adverse affects during water
> > changes, as I
> > | introduce the new water slowly over a period of an hour or two.
> > After the
> > | water change, the pH is about 6.8. All of the fish in this tank
> > prefer
> > | 6.0-7.5. After a week, it balances to 6.0 (at least, that's the
> > lowest my
> > | scale reads).
> > |
> > | I'm just wondering if there is anything that could cause
> > problems/adverse
> > | effects during introduction of the new (higher pH) water during
> > changes.
> > |
> >
> >
> > The fluctuation in PH *could* stress your fish out. I was in your
> > situation for a while, so I went and bought a bale of peat moss and
> > treated all my water with it to lower the PH before adding it to my
> > tank. Might want to look into this.
> >
> > billy
>
> My concern would that your kH must be very low for your pH to bounce like
> that, and a low kH can be very problematic, leading to a pH crash. Your
> driftwood might not be the culprit (OTS?)
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml#ots and directly
> above, I list the environment requirements for nitrifying bacteria. By
> your pH bouncing between 7+ and 6-, your bacteria population might not be
> very stable, making a pH change to 7.5+ dangerous if there is any NH4
> accumulation while at 6.0pH.
> --
> http://www.NetMax.tk/
>
>

[Graham Broadbridge]

"D&M" > wrote in message
...
> Hey Guys,
> Got some driftwood for my plecos in my 90g. Over the last 4 weeks, the pH
> has lowered from 8.5 to 6.0. The tap water is 7.2-8.0 (Depends on the
week,

This indicates most probably a very low Carbonate Hardness (kH) in your
water.

You should attempt to maintain at least 3 dkH (around 60ppm).


Graham.

[NetMax]

"D&M" > wrote in message
...
> Well, I wasn't going to go into the whole story, but since it's been
brought
> up....

Yup :o) spill it.

> This tank is about 1 1/2 years old, powered by a Fluval 304 and 404,
and one
> Emperor 400. Airated by one monster Rena (never hear it). This tank is
also
> UV sterilized.

When the pH bounces, bacteria start going dormant or dying off. Most
aquatic organisms which have the ability to 'float' or move in the water
column will do so when the water conditions are no longer hospitable,
searching for a better home (snails float, fish try to jump out of tanks
etc). Nitrifying bacteria attach to surfaces but also travel through the
water column (to establish new colonies in better locations). If this
all sounds resonable, then consider that your UV cannot discriminate
between good bacteria and bad bacteria. Anything which enters the water
column will be irridiated as it travels through the UV. Just a point to
keep in mind with your unique conditions.

> This tank has been steady the last 14 months with an 8.0 - 8.5. Cleaned
like
> clockwork ever two weeks via python deep gravel clean, 25-30%
>
> Only thing new in the last 8 months is the driftwood.
>
> I watch closely while vacuuming under the logs, etc, checking for
excess
> buildups of poop, uneaten food, etc., and it's actually very clean. I
got a
> 30g that's messy, has to be cleaned weekly, this 90g is like it's own
> ecosystem it cleans itself up so well. Water is very clear other than
slight
> tanin coloration as there's no carbon in the system. When I deep
vacuum,
> it's very clean... suprisingly compared to the mess other fish make in
my
> other tanks.

Our visual definition of 'clean' (lacking detritus and good water
clarity) occasionally has something to do with the actual water quality
;~) but only infrequently, imo. It sounds like you have lots of fish (or
at least lots of food going in there), and the amount of filtration
combined with the acidity of the water is decomposing everything into its
dissolved state much faster.

> dKH is 3, dGH is 27. This is where probably quite a bit of problem lies
as
> the buffer is low (KH). Trying to locate where the buffer is going when
> nothing has changed in maintenance nor additions to the tank is another
> story. Tap has a dKH of 15 which is great, going to bed, so no time for
a
> tap GH test right now. Ammonia and nit test 0.

Decomposition of detritus acidifies the water, right? (your water is
acidic and you have very little detritus). Acidification consumes the
carbonates (your dropping your kH by 12 degrees or 215 ppm!). I bet that
when you open your filters to clean them, they are empty.

My hypothesis is that the rate of decomposition is a non-linear curve
(the more there is to rot, the more the water acidifies, and the more
acidic the water is, the faster everything rots, and so on and so on), so
your rate of carbonates replenishment (water changes) is behind the
curve.

Doing more water changes, adding baking soda, adding calcium leeching
minerals, feeding less, reducing your bio-load etc are all options. Be
judicious in how you restore your pH, to not have to deal with the toxic
effects of any NH4 converting to NH3. You already know about this stuff,
but for the benefit of others, it's discussed in better detail here:
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml#nh4

> The fish don't care, haven't lost any, they're healthy as can be.
Something
> just said to me I better check to make sure it's ok adding higher pH
water
> into their system on a regular basis... have a few prize fish in this
tank I
> want to take care of.

I have a 32g hex tank with prized Altum angelfish (and a bunch of other
small fish), and it keeps pH crashing on me. My source water kH is only
3dkH so my best is already your worse. So it's water changes and gravel
vacuuming again & again, slowly bringing my pH from tester limit -6.0pH
back to around 6.8-7.0pH (my tap is 7.7pH). The fish are in perfect
condition, completely oblivious to the water's condition and probably
amused at my varying degrees of panic. When everything else is good, a
slow bouncing low pH does not appear to be much of a stressor to them,
however the key is that everything else is good (healthy mature fish,
proper feeding etc), so you must be doing everything else right :~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Cheers
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > "Dinky" > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> > > "D&M" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > | Hey Guys,
> > > | Got some driftwood for my plecos in my 90g. Over the last 4
weeks,
> > > the pH
> > > | has lowered from 8.5 to 6.0. The tap water is 7.2-8.0 (Depends on
> > > the week,
> > > | draws from 7 wells). So far, no adverse affects during water
> > > changes, as I
> > > | introduce the new water slowly over a period of an hour or two.
> > > After the
> > > | water change, the pH is about 6.8. All of the fish in this tank
> > > prefer
> > > | 6.0-7.5. After a week, it balances to 6.0 (at least, that's the
> > > lowest my
> > > | scale reads).
> > > |
> > > | I'm just wondering if there is anything that could cause
> > > problems/adverse
> > > | effects during introduction of the new (higher pH) water during
> > > changes.
> > > |
> > >
> > >
> > > The fluctuation in PH *could* stress your fish out. I was in your
> > > situation for a while, so I went and bought a bale of peat moss and
> > > treated all my water with it to lower the PH before adding it to my
> > > tank. Might want to look into this.
> > >
> > > billy
> >
> > My concern would that your kH must be very low for your pH to bounce
like
> > that, and a low kH can be very problematic, leading to a pH crash.
Your
> > driftwood might not be the culprit (OTS?)
> > http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml#ots and directly
> > above, I list the environment requirements for nitrifying bacteria.
By
> > your pH bouncing between 7+ and 6-, your bacteria population might
not be
> > very stable, making a pH change to 7.5+ dangerous if there is any NH4
> > accumulation while at 6.0pH.
> > --
> > http://www.NetMax.tk/

interspersed upstairs..

[D&M]

As usual, a wealth of info, Thanks!

UV ended up being a last resort to battle algae, and works like a charm.

The tank isn't nessesarily overpopulated, but has large fish in it (and
large waste). The over filtration compensated for removal of solid wastes.
(One filter is specifically for the 10+" albino choc pleco, the "waste"
machine pretty much)

Either way, this is just balancing out right now, deciding who moves to what
tank, and who is remaining as permanant residents. Until then, I'll just
have to keep a close watch on the kh and ph, regulate as nessesary.

Thanks for all the info, I'll read it over closer on the weekend.

Cheers!

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "D&M" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Well, I wasn't going to go into the whole story, but since it's been
> brought
> > up....
>
> Yup :o) spill it.
>
> > This tank is about 1 1/2 years old, powered by a Fluval 304 and 404,
> and one
> > Emperor 400. Airated by one monster Rena (never hear it). This tank is
> also
> > UV sterilized.
>
> When the pH bounces, bacteria start going dormant or dying off. Most
> aquatic organisms which have the ability to 'float' or move in the water
> column will do so when the water conditions are no longer hospitable,
> searching for a better home (snails float, fish try to jump out of tanks
> etc). Nitrifying bacteria attach to surfaces but also travel through the
> water column (to establish new colonies in better locations). If this
> all sounds resonable, then consider that your UV cannot discriminate
> between good bacteria and bad bacteria. Anything which enters the water
> column will be irridiated as it travels through the UV. Just a point to
> keep in mind with your unique conditions.
>
> > This tank has been steady the last 14 months with an 8.0 - 8.5. Cleaned
> like
> > clockwork ever two weeks via python deep gravel clean, 25-30%
> >
> > Only thing new in the last 8 months is the driftwood.
> >
> > I watch closely while vacuuming under the logs, etc, checking for
> excess
> > buildups of poop, uneaten food, etc., and it's actually very clean. I
> got a
> > 30g that's messy, has to be cleaned weekly, this 90g is like it's own
> > ecosystem it cleans itself up so well. Water is very clear other than
> slight
> > tanin coloration as there's no carbon in the system. When I deep
> vacuum,
> > it's very clean... suprisingly compared to the mess other fish make in
> my
> > other tanks.
>
> Our visual definition of 'clean' (lacking detritus and good water
> clarity) occasionally has something to do with the actual water quality
> ;~) but only infrequently, imo. It sounds like you have lots of fish (or
> at least lots of food going in there), and the amount of filtration
> combined with the acidity of the water is decomposing everything into its
> dissolved state much faster.
>
> > dKH is 3, dGH is 27. This is where probably quite a bit of problem lies
> as
> > the buffer is low (KH). Trying to locate where the buffer is going when
> > nothing has changed in maintenance nor additions to the tank is another
> > story. Tap has a dKH of 15 which is great, going to bed, so no time for
> a
> > tap GH test right now. Ammonia and nit test 0.
>
> Decomposition of detritus acidifies the water, right? (your water is
> acidic and you have very little detritus). Acidification consumes the
> carbonates (your dropping your kH by 12 degrees or 215 ppm!). I bet that
> when you open your filters to clean them, they are empty.
>
> My hypothesis is that the rate of decomposition is a non-linear curve
> (the more there is to rot, the more the water acidifies, and the more
> acidic the water is, the faster everything rots, and so on and so on), so
> your rate of carbonates replenishment (water changes) is behind the
> curve.
>
> Doing more water changes, adding baking soda, adding calcium leeching
> minerals, feeding less, reducing your bio-load etc are all options. Be
> judicious in how you restore your pH, to not have to deal with the toxic
> effects of any NH4 converting to NH3. You already know about this stuff,
> but for the benefit of others, it's discussed in better detail here:
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml#nh4
>
> > The fish don't care, haven't lost any, they're healthy as can be.
> Something
> > just said to me I better check to make sure it's ok adding higher pH
> water
> > into their system on a regular basis... have a few prize fish in this
> tank I
> > want to take care of.
>
> I have a 32g hex tank with prized Altum angelfish (and a bunch of other
> small fish), and it keeps pH crashing on me. My source water kH is only
> 3dkH so my best is already your worse. So it's water changes and gravel
> vacuuming again & again, slowly bringing my pH from tester limit -6.0pH
> back to around 6.8-7.0pH (my tap is 7.7pH). The fish are in perfect
> condition, completely oblivious to the water's condition and probably
> amused at my varying degrees of panic. When everything else is good, a
> slow bouncing low pH does not appear to be much of a stressor to them,
> however the key is that everything else is good (healthy mature fish,
> proper feeding etc), so you must be doing everything else right :~).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
> > Cheers
> >
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > . ..
> > > "Dinky" > wrote in message
> > > ink.net...
> > > > "D&M" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > | Hey Guys,
> > > > | Got some driftwood for my plecos in my 90g. Over the last 4
> weeks,
> > > > the pH
> > > > | has lowered from 8.5 to 6.0. The tap water is 7.2-8.0 (Depends on
> > > > the week,
> > > > | draws from 7 wells). So far, no adverse affects during water
> > > > changes, as I
> > > > | introduce the new water slowly over a period of an hour or two.
> > > > After the
> > > > | water change, the pH is about 6.8. All of the fish in this tank
> > > > prefer
> > > > | 6.0-7.5. After a week, it balances to 6.0 (at least, that's the
> > > > lowest my
> > > > | scale reads).
> > > > |
> > > > | I'm just wondering if there is anything that could cause
> > > > problems/adverse
> > > > | effects during introduction of the new (higher pH) water during
> > > > changes.
> > > > |
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The fluctuation in PH *could* stress your fish out. I was in your
> > > > situation for a while, so I went and bought a bale of peat moss and
> > > > treated all my water with it to lower the PH before adding it to my
> > > > tank. Might want to look into this.
> > > >
> > > > billy
> > >
> > > My concern would that your kH must be very low for your pH to bounce
> like
> > > that, and a low kH can be very problematic, leading to a pH crash.
> Your
> > > driftwood might not be the culprit (OTS?)
> > > http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml#ots and directly
> > > above, I list the environment requirements for nitrifying bacteria.
> By
> > > your pH bouncing between 7+ and 6-, your bacteria population might
> not be
> > > very stable, making a pH change to 7.5+ dangerous if there is any NH4
> > > accumulation while at 6.0pH.
> > > --
> > > http://www.NetMax.tk/
>
> interspersed upstairs..
>
>