thought I was turning my tank over way more

[paul goodhew]

I thought my Resun SP-6000 was pumping at approx 1700 litres/hour. I did a
test with a stop watch and a 10 litre container, it turns out it's only
pumping at around 500 litres an hour. this is MAJOR proplem obviously and
explains why I have been getting a nitrite reading (see the below post). I
am so angry at myself for putting my fish through this harm when the problem
was so basic.

I don't know what I can do. the pump should pump at 1700 litres an hour at a
head height of 1.3 metres, but it just doesn't perform. I have the sump set
up so that it sits in the cabinet under the tank, so there are a total of 4
elbow joins in the piping. do you think this could be the problem?? should I
try to clean out the pipe that connects the pump to the tank? I don't see
how I can get an extra 1200 litres per hour out of the pump just with these
measures though. I think a bigger pump is what I need to buy. but how can I
be sure that the new one is going to pump the amount that it says it will if
this one is not up to the job?!

sorry I am rambling but I feel really dismayed at the moment. I can't
believe my filtration is so below what it should be. :(

[NetMax]

"paul goodhew" > wrote in message
...
> I thought my Resun SP-6000 was pumping at approx 1700 litres/hour. I
did a
> test with a stop watch and a 10 litre container, it turns out it's only
> pumping at around 500 litres an hour. this is MAJOR proplem obviously
and
> explains why I have been getting a nitrite reading (see the below
post). I
> am so angry at myself for putting my fish through this harm when the
problem
> was so basic.
>
> I don't know what I can do. the pump should pump at 1700 litres an hour
at a
> head height of 1.3 metres, but it just doesn't perform. I have the
sump set
> up so that it sits in the cabinet under the tank, so there are a total
of 4
> elbow joins in the piping. do you think this could be the problem??
should I
> try to clean out the pipe that connects the pump to the tank? I don't
see
> how I can get an extra 1200 litres per hour out of the pump just with
these
> measures though. I think a bigger pump is what I need to buy. but how
can I
> be sure that the new one is going to pump the amount that it says it
will if
> this one is not up to the job?!
>
> sorry I am rambling but I feel really dismayed at the moment. I can't
> believe my filtration is so below what it should be. :(

You sound understandably upset. I would contact the manufacturer, and
inspect the pump for impeller blade erosion. The 90 degree elbows are
much more restrictive than say a 45 degree, but I don't think that would
explain a 70% drop in efficiency unless you are operating close to the
max head pressure (then flow drops very quickly). If you are using
recommended diameter hoses, the manufacturer should be able to correlate
each elbow to be equivalent to XX inches of additional head.

You can upsize your hose diameter. This reduces your flow restriction,
but increase the weight of the water the impeller has to push, so you
have to stay with a range.

Adding a 2nd pump would give you a boost in flow, and provide some
redundancy.

I wonder if that is it though. Your tank is 120g and you are currently
pushing 132gph. From a biological perspective, if you have enough water
to keep the wet/dry surface wet, then you might be fine. Biological &
chemical filtration works best at lower gph. Just some random thoughts.
Good luck with the pump!
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Velvet]

paul goodhew wrote:

> I thought my Resun SP-6000 was pumping at approx 1700 litres/hour. I did a
> test with a stop watch and a 10 litre container, it turns out it's only
> pumping at around 500 litres an hour. this is MAJOR proplem obviously and
> explains why I have been getting a nitrite reading (see the below post). I
> am so angry at myself for putting my fish through this harm when the problem
> was so basic.
>
> I don't know what I can do. the pump should pump at 1700 litres an hour at a
> head height of 1.3 metres, but it just doesn't perform. I have the sump set
> up so that it sits in the cabinet under the tank, so there are a total of 4
> elbow joins in the piping. do you think this could be the problem?? should I
> try to clean out the pipe that connects the pump to the tank? I don't see
> how I can get an extra 1200 litres per hour out of the pump just with these
> measures though. I think a bigger pump is what I need to buy. but how can I
> be sure that the new one is going to pump the amount that it says it will if
> this one is not up to the job?!
>
> sorry I am rambling but I feel really dismayed at the moment. I can't
> believe my filtration is so below what it should be. :(
>
>
>

I researched flow rates when I was looking at getting an ehiem cannister
to replace my two hagen trio internal filters. I found a lot of
anomalies in the way the ratings are given. A lot give ratings purely
on pump flow WITHOUT any media etc, let alone media that's been in situ
for a while.

I made sure I bought a filter overspecced for my tank, but next time
will be buying even further overspec.

Yes elbows will affect the throughput somewhat, but you'd need to look
up fluid dynamics and stuff to find out by how much.

Make sure (go back to the manufacturer if necessary) and ask them to
confirm just what flow rate they expect from that filter and under what
conditions (with/without media installed, etc)

Velvet

[Harry Muscle]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "paul goodhew" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I thought my Resun SP-6000 was pumping at approx 1700 litres/hour. I
> did a
> > test with a stop watch and a 10 litre container, it turns out it's only
> > pumping at around 500 litres an hour. this is MAJOR proplem obviously
> and
> > explains why I have been getting a nitrite reading (see the below
> post). I
> > am so angry at myself for putting my fish through this harm when the
> problem
> > was so basic.
> >
> > I don't know what I can do. the pump should pump at 1700 litres an hour
> at a
> > head height of 1.3 metres, but it just doesn't perform. I have the
> sump set
> > up so that it sits in the cabinet under the tank, so there are a total
> of 4
> > elbow joins in the piping. do you think this could be the problem??
> should I
> > try to clean out the pipe that connects the pump to the tank? I don't
> see
> > how I can get an extra 1200 litres per hour out of the pump just with
> these
> > measures though. I think a bigger pump is what I need to buy. but how
> can I
> > be sure that the new one is going to pump the amount that it says it
> will if
> > this one is not up to the job?!
> >
> > sorry I am rambling but I feel really dismayed at the moment. I can't
> > believe my filtration is so below what it should be. :(
>
> You sound understandably upset. I would contact the manufacturer, and
> inspect the pump for impeller blade erosion. The 90 degree elbows are
> much more restrictive than say a 45 degree, but I don't think that would
> explain a 70% drop in efficiency unless you are operating close to the
> max head pressure (then flow drops very quickly). If you are using
> recommended diameter hoses, the manufacturer should be able to correlate
> each elbow to be equivalent to XX inches of additional head.
>
> You can upsize your hose diameter. This reduces your flow restriction,
> but increase the weight of the water the impeller has to push, so you
> have to stay with a range.
>
> Adding a 2nd pump would give you a boost in flow, and provide some
> redundancy.
>
> I wonder if that is it though. Your tank is 120g and you are currently
> pushing 132gph. From a biological perspective, if you have enough water
> to keep the wet/dry surface wet, then you might be fine. Biological &
> chemical filtration works best at lower gph. Just some random thoughts.
> Good luck with the pump!
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>

Talking about elbows and the equivalent in pump head, check this site out:

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/2024/fish.html

The site has a whole section about figuring out exactly how much head you
get depending on how your pipes are configured. If you're at all
technically inclined then you'll probably enjoy it quite a bit. I've
referred to it a handful of time.

Harry

[Andy Hill]

"paul goodhew" > wrote:
>I thought my Resun SP-6000 was pumping at approx 1700 litres/hour. I did a
>test with a stop watch and a 10 litre container, it turns out it's only
>pumping at around 500 litres an hour. this is MAJOR proplem obviously and
>explains why I have been getting a nitrite reading (see the below post). I
>am so angry at myself for putting my fish through this harm when the problem
>was so basic.
>
>I don't know what I can do. the pump should pump at 1700 litres an hour at a
>head height of 1.3 metres, but it just doesn't perform. I have the sump set
>up so that it sits in the cabinet under the tank, so there are a total of 4
>elbow joins in the piping. do you think this could be the problem?? should I
>try to clean out the pipe that connects the pump to the tank? I don't see
>how I can get an extra 1200 litres per hour out of the pump just with these
>measures though. I think a bigger pump is what I need to buy. but how can I
>be sure that the new one is going to pump the amount that it says it will if
>this one is not up to the job?!
>
>sorry I am rambling but I feel really dismayed at the moment. I can't
>believe my filtration is so below what it should be. :(
>
>
Sort've sounds like you're either using too small of pipe, or something else is
adding a lot of dynamic head.

What size pipe and how much of it? 2m of 1/2" pipe is going to add about 1.85m
of dynamic head to the system @ 5gpm (1135 l/hr) in addition to your static head
(asssuming a C of 120, which is pretty typical for dirty plastic pipe). 4 90
deg fittings of that diameter will add another 2m of "length", so you're
looking at about 3.7m of dynamic head @ 1135l/hr, in addition to your static
head.

Lots of assumptions here...would need to know more about the setup to do more
than a SWAG.

BTW, numbers all come out of Glover's "Pocket Ref", so you can do yer own math
if you have a copy.

[Harry Muscle]

"Andy Hill" > wrote in message
...
> "paul goodhew" > wrote:
> >I thought my Resun SP-6000 was pumping at approx 1700 litres/hour. I did
a
> >test with a stop watch and a 10 litre container, it turns out it's only
> >pumping at around 500 litres an hour. this is MAJOR proplem obviously and
> >explains why I have been getting a nitrite reading (see the below post).
I
> >am so angry at myself for putting my fish through this harm when the
problem
> >was so basic.
> >
> >I don't know what I can do. the pump should pump at 1700 litres an hour
at a
> >head height of 1.3 metres, but it just doesn't perform. I have the sump
set
> >up so that it sits in the cabinet under the tank, so there are a total of
4
> >elbow joins in the piping. do you think this could be the problem??
should I
> >try to clean out the pipe that connects the pump to the tank? I don't see
> >how I can get an extra 1200 litres per hour out of the pump just with
these
> >measures though. I think a bigger pump is what I need to buy. but how can
I
> >be sure that the new one is going to pump the amount that it says it will
if
> >this one is not up to the job?!
> >
> >sorry I am rambling but I feel really dismayed at the moment. I can't
> >believe my filtration is so below what it should be. :(
> >
> >
> Sort've sounds like you're either using too small of pipe, or something
else is
> adding a lot of dynamic head.
>
> What size pipe and how much of it? 2m of 1/2" pipe is going to add about
1.85m
> of dynamic head to the system @ 5gpm (1135 l/hr) in addition to your
static head
> (asssuming a C of 120, which is pretty typical for dirty plastic pipe). 4
90
> deg fittings of that diameter will add another 2m of "length", so you're
> looking at about 3.7m of dynamic head @ 1135l/hr, in addition to your
static
> head.
>
> Lots of assumptions here...would need to know more about the setup to do
more
> than a SWAG.
>
> BTW, numbers all come out of Glover's "Pocket Ref", so you can do yer own
math
> if you have a copy.

Check out: http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/2024/fish.html.
It's got all the math there too.

Harry

[flupke]

paul goodhew wrote:
<snip>
> I don't know what I can do. the pump should pump at 1700 litres an
> hour at a head height of 1.3 metres, but it just doesn't perform. I

I used to have a pond and with the different pumps i used there,
i never, but really never came anything close to the number of gallons
those pumps where supposed to pump.
I have observed the same with some aquarium pumps too.

flupke

[paul goodhew]

> >
>
> Talking about elbows and the equivalent in pump head, check this site out:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/2024/fish.html
>
> The site has a whole section about figuring out exactly how much head you
> get depending on how your pipes are configured. If you're at all
> technically inclined then you'll probably enjoy it quite a bit. I've
> referred to it a handful of time.
>
> Harry
>
Harry, this is a great site!! I worked out that my total head is actually
closer 7' 4" rather than the 40" from pump to outflow nozzle.

this explains the lack of flow rate quite neatly. If anyone would care to
double check my sums.. I am using 3/4 inch pipe, with 4 90 degree elbows and
one joiner/coupling, the total length of the pipe is around 60 inches. the
distance between the pump inlet and the outlet is around 40 inches.

amazingly, I can get an additional ~176 gallons an hour out of my filter
just by changing the setup so that the pump is sitting directly below the
outlet, so that I have only 40" of pipe, 1 90 degree elbow and 1 45 degree
elbow, so instead of looking like this:

___
|~~~|~~~~~~~~~~tank water level.
|
|
|
|
|
|_______
|
|
|
pump

I will set it up like thisthis:

____
|~~~ \~~~~~~~~~tank water level.
|
|
|
|
|
pump


this has definately been an important learning experience for me, and I
really hope that all DIY filter designers take note. I think it would be a
great idea if this thread could be archived in some kind of FAQ. Netmax, I
would be quite happy to do up an article on this for your web site if you
like. alternatively you could just provide a link to the stie that Harry
showed me.

[NetMax]

"paul goodhew" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> > >
> >
> > Talking about elbows and the equivalent in pump head, check this site
out:
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/2024/fish.html
> >
> > The site has a whole section about figuring out exactly how much head
you
> > get depending on how your pipes are configured. If you're at all
> > technically inclined then you'll probably enjoy it quite a bit. I've
> > referred to it a handful of time.
> >
> > Harry
> >
> Harry, this is a great site!! I worked out that my total head is
actually
> closer 7' 4" rather than the 40" from pump to outflow nozzle.
>
> this explains the lack of flow rate quite neatly. If anyone would care
to
> double check my sums.. I am using 3/4 inch pipe, with 4 90 degree
elbows and
> one joiner/coupling, the total length of the pipe is around 60 inches.
the
> distance between the pump inlet and the outlet is around 40 inches.
>
> amazingly, I can get an additional ~176 gallons an hour out of my
filter
> just by changing the setup so that the pump is sitting directly below
the
> outlet, so that I have only 40" of pipe, 1 90 degree elbow and 1 45
degree
> elbow, so instead of looking like this:
>
> ___
> |~~~|~~~~~~~~~~tank water level.
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |_______
> |
> |
> |
> pump
>
> I will set it up like thisthis:
>
> ____
> |~~~ \~~~~~~~~~tank water level.
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> pump
>
>
> this has definately been an important learning experience for me, and I
> really hope that all DIY filter designers take note. I think it would
be a
> great idea if this thread could be archived in some kind of FAQ.
Netmax, I
> would be quite happy to do up an article on this for your web site if
you
> like. alternatively you could just provide a link to the stie that
Harry
> showed me.

Glad to hear that you are making progress. I'm making a new category in
my links section just for that site, under aquaria engineering. Now why
did Harry keep that url to himself for so long? ;~)

--
www.NetMax.tk

[paul goodhew]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> "paul goodhew" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Talking about elbows and the equivalent in pump head, check this site
> out:
> > >
> > > http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/2024/fish.html
> > >
> > > The site has a whole section about figuring out exactly how much head
> you
> > > get depending on how your pipes are configured. If you're at all
> > > technically inclined then you'll probably enjoy it quite a bit. I've
> > > referred to it a handful of time.
> > >
> > > Harry
> > >
> > Harry, this is a great site!! I worked out that my total head is
> actually
> > closer 7' 4" rather than the 40" from pump to outflow nozzle.
> >
> > this explains the lack of flow rate quite neatly. If anyone would care
> to
> > double check my sums.. I am using 3/4 inch pipe, with 4 90 degree
> elbows and
> > one joiner/coupling, the total length of the pipe is around 60 inches.
> the
> > distance between the pump inlet and the outlet is around 40 inches.
> >
> > amazingly, I can get an additional ~176 gallons an hour out of my
> filter
> > just by changing the setup so that the pump is sitting directly below
> the
> > outlet, so that I have only 40" of pipe, 1 90 degree elbow and 1 45
> degree
> > elbow, so instead of looking like this:
> >
> > ___
> > |~~~|~~~~~~~~~~tank water level.
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |_______
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > pump
> >
> > I will set it up like thisthis:
> >
> > ____
> > |~~~ \~~~~~~~~~tank water level.
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > pump
> >
> >
> > this has definately been an important learning experience for me, and I
> > really hope that all DIY filter designers take note. I think it would
> be a
> > great idea if this thread could be archived in some kind of FAQ.
> Netmax, I
> > would be quite happy to do up an article on this for your web site if
> you
> > like. alternatively you could just provide a link to the stie that
> Harry
> > showed me.
>
> Glad to hear that you are making progress. I'm making a new category in
> my links section just for that site, under aquaria engineering. Now why
> did Harry keep that url to himself for so long? ;~)


hey netmax, it's nearly midnight here in brisbane Australia. I'm sitting up
late, I've been searching the net for about 5 hours for some sort of
solution to my 0.1ppm nitrite levels. I love my fish so much I can hardly
sleep knowing they arn't 100% happy. hopefully this will help my problem, if
not, it's an extra internal filter and maybe a HOT filter to buy.. *sigh* I
don't think I can ever have kids, fish are hard enough!!

[NetMax]

"paul goodhew" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > "paul goodhew" > wrote in message
> > ...
<snip>
> >
> > Glad to hear that you are making progress. I'm making a new category
in
> > my links section just for that site, under aquaria engineering. Now
why
> > did Harry keep that url to himself for so long? ;~)
>
>
> hey netmax, it's nearly midnight here in brisbane Australia. I'm
sitting up
> late, I've been searching the net for about 5 hours for some sort of
> solution to my 0.1ppm nitrite levels. I love my fish so much I can
hardly
> sleep knowing they arn't 100% happy. hopefully this will help my
problem, if
> not, it's an extra internal filter and maybe a HOT filter to buy..
*sigh* I
> don't think I can ever have kids, fish are hard enough!!

LOL, it's a recipe! If you saw my tanks, what would impress you the most
is not my fish or the decorations, but how little I do to maintain them
(a few timers, auto-feeder, light fish load & overfilter). I had 108g
packed with Africans on a similar set-up, except that I did a daily 'fun'
feeding of the frozen live or FD foods. The hobby will add years to your
life, if you don't worry about it so much ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Paul]

paul goodhew wrote in message ...
>I thought my Resun SP-6000 was pumping at approx 1700 litres/hour. I did a
>test with a stop watch and a 10 litre container, it turns out it's only
>pumping at around 500 litres an hour. this is MAJOR proplem obviously and
>explains why I have been getting a nitrite reading (see the below post). I
>am so angry at myself for putting my fish through this harm when the
problem
>was so basic.
>
>I don't know what I can do. the pump should pump at 1700 litres an hour at
a
>head height of 1.3 metres, but it just doesn't perform. I have the sump
set
>up so that it sits in the cabinet under the tank, so there are a total of
4
>elbow joins in the piping. do you think this could be the problem?? should
I
>try to clean out the pipe that connects the pump to the tank? I don't see
>how I can get an extra 1200 litres per hour out of the pump just with these
>measures though. I think a bigger pump is what I need to buy. but how can I
>be sure that the new one is going to pump the amount that it says it will
if
>this one is not up to the job?!
>
>sorry I am rambling but I feel really dismayed at the moment. I can't
>believe my filtration is so below what it should be. :(
>


well I have carried out the work on my plumbing, and am pleased to report a
good increase in flow rate. Not quite what I was hoping for, but still a
signifigant increase. Results:

Initial plumbing design with 4 90 degree elbows and around 6-7 foot of pipe
yielded a flow rate of around 600 Litres an hour. ( ~132 gallons/hour)

So after rearranging the sump to a position directly underneath the hole
drilled in the tank for water "input", I eliminated all the elbow joins
except one, and shortened the length of pipe to a mere 40 inches. I also
changed the pipe to 1" pipeThis yields a flow rate of 1000 Litres/hour
(220gallons/hour).

As you can see this is an improvement of close to 50% which is very good,
and something that I certainly did not suspect would be possible before
reading about the effect of plumbing on flow rate.

the flow rate does not quite come up to the theoretical level that it
should, but I think that this is due to the fact that some of the pipes are
dirty, and the pump is probably not quite up to the level that the
manufacturer says it is.

I will add a small internal canister filter now and hopefully my filtration
woes will be over!!