How clean is too clean for a fry tank?

[Jolly Fisherman]

Whenever I look at hatchery pictures the pros make their tanks look
immaculate. OK understandably. But not just free of detritus, also
free of algae. And sterile looking, without plants or any features.

I'm experimenting with breeding now. I thought I'd try using direct
lighting in a bare bottom grow out tank and allow algae to thrive. I
grew wonderful sheets of Nitrate sucking algae, and thought, hey, this
is a good thing, right? Fry from the same spawn that where in an
algae free tank and received the same diet seem to not have nearly as
deep colors. So I thought, why don't the pros use algae for diet and
supplemental filtration?

Then recently I started seeing bulges under parts of the algae sheets.
Not knowing what gas was under it I broke the algae sheet with a
siphon and sucked the gas out. Is this one of the reasons they don't
bother with it? Why wouldn't you use algae or certain nutrient-sponge
plants in fry grow-out tanks?

[carlrs]

Jolly Fisherman wrote:
> Whenever I look at hatchery pictures the pros make their tanks look
> immaculate. OK understandably. But not just free of detritus, also
> free of algae. And sterile looking, without plants or any features.
>
> I'm experimenting with breeding now. I thought I'd try using direct
> lighting in a bare bottom grow out tank and allow algae to thrive. I
> grew wonderful sheets of Nitrate sucking algae, and thought, hey, this
> is a good thing, right? Fry from the same spawn that where in an
> algae free tank and received the same diet seem to not have nearly as
> deep colors. So I thought, why don't the pros use algae for diet and
> supplemental filtration?
>
> Then recently I started seeing bulges under parts of the algae sheets.
> Not knowing what gas was under it I broke the algae sheet with a
> siphon and sucked the gas out. Is this one of the reasons they don't
> bother with it? Why wouldn't you use algae or certain nutrient-sponge
> plants in fry grow-out tanks?

I personally have not done a lot of breeeding, but I have done
business with many a breeder.
Some algae can be fairly empty nutritional speaking with the exception
of Spirulina Algae which is not really algae (although they can be rich
in some color enhancer as you dicovered).The goldfish and koi I have
bred in ponds mostly fed on the micro organisms that thrived around the
roots of the water iris I used as a breeding ground and fry rearing
area. With these fish I supplemented with powdered spirulina flake and
boiled egg crumbles.
The breeders of the Angelfish and discus I have done business with have
used similar practices that I have observed witht the exception of the
micro organisms.

My assumption to algae used in breeding tanks is that it doesnt provide
adequet nutrition and what you discovered in the probable Hydrogen
sulfide gas trapped under your algae mat.
But I think general ease of cleaning is the overiding reason, as you
found better coloration in the fry raised in the tank with algae.
I probably didnt answer your question here, but I hope a few of my
thoughts were helpful.

[Jolly Fisherman]

Interesting.

Thinking about it a little more I'm wondering if lighting costs are an
issue. I'm wondering if there is fear of greater possibility of
bacterial growth that can cause deformities. Indeed potential
Hydrogen sulfide gas exposure would be an unnecessary risk. 2 good
sponge filters per tank and lots of water changes are starting to seem
like enough. Although I don't really see any great need for a
hobbyist like myself to growing out fry necessarily in plantless or
algaeless tanks.

Nutritionally, I was thinking simply about the color enhancing aspects
of some algae. The fry in the algae tank did not grow much faster.
But without such algae you would be introducing other color enhancing
foods at a later stage of development. I don't know if that matters.

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

[...described emergency room fry tanks...]

Well.., I'm sure and certain that fish fry generally love to
eat living micro food and that it will enjoy to grow up in
micro life rich tanks..

Personally I come from a fish keeping tradition where
vacuuming and weekly filter cleaning is completely unknown
but weekly water changes of 50%+ are very common..

And this is why I'm used to vote for big enough and stable
(cycled) tanks with a lot of mulm or mud - and of course a
lot of helpful plants like elodea, hornwort and java moss
for feeding growing fish fry..

> I'm experimenting with breeding now.

What kind of fish..?

Well try to imagine the green algae on the substrates to be
"woods" where a lot of useful bacteria and bacteria eaters
are used to live (== bio film)..

--
cu
Marco

[[email protected]]

It all depends on the type of fish. Most of the easy to breed species
will do best in very similar tanks to their parents. That is plenty of
things to pick on.

I have some Neolamprologus leleupi that bred three months ago in a
community tank. They are very difficult to catch so some of them were
left with their parents and a selection of other Tanganyika cichlids.
The ones I left in the tank are growing much faster that the ones
taken out and put in a fry tank. The basic difference is that the
community tank is full of bits for them to pick on all day while the
"clean" fry tank just gets four or five feeds a day.

When I was into breeding fish in a big way and had 50 tanks, I learned
that the most important things needed to grow fry is a continuous
supply of suitably food and frequent partial water changes.

Steve

--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 18:23:44 +0100, Marco Schwarz
> wrote:

>Hi..
>
>[...described emergency room fry tanks...]
>
>Well.., I'm sure and certain that fish fry generally love to
>eat living micro food and that it will enjoy to grow up in
>micro life rich tanks..
>
>Personally I come from a fish keeping tradition where
>vacuuming and weekly filter cleaning is completely unknown
>but weekly water changes of 50%+ are very common..

I was doing weekly changes because my life has been really hectic. It
was also good because there were so many little critters for the young
fry to feast on. I would have thrown that away being too clean.

Now I'm doing about 80% changes every couple days and feeding much
more. That's about when the tanks start to take on a bit of an odor.
Growth rate has been great. I'm inclined to believe ppl who claim
that frequent large water changes aid in growth rates. It does seem
to slow somewhat when I stretch out the water changes.

>And this is why I'm used to vote for big enough and stable
>(cycled) tanks with a lot of mulm or mud - and of course a
>lot of helpful plants like elodea, hornwort and java moss
>for feeding growing fish fry..

I'm with you.

>> I'm experimenting with breeding now.
>
>What kind of fish..?

At the moment Opaline Gourami and Black Lace / Golden Angel hybrids (I
don't know if there is a name for that). Nothing terribly difficult
as I'm a newb.

>Well try to imagine the green algae on the substrates to be
>"woods" where a lot of useful bacteria and bacteria eaters
>are used to live (== bio film)..

Yes which is one of the reasons I think it's a good idea. From what I
understand there is some belief that exposure to water quality
problems and certain bacteria in early stages of development can lead
to deformities. So I wonder if commercial breeders see algae as a
2-edged sword? and that's why they are unwilling to pay to support it
with artificial lighting. But such claims are so unspecific I wonder
if it is superstition.

Before these spawns I read a lot about the prevalence of deformities,
and therefore the need to cull, and how it is common for growth rates
to be so dissimilar that is possible for faster growing fry to eat the
smaller ones. I have culled the slowest growers, and lost a lot due
to my own carelessness (and lack of desire to raise many hundreds of
fish) but interestingly those things I read have not panned out at
all. I'm inclined to believe the algae and critters were helpful in
early development.

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> At the moment Opaline Gourami and Black Lace / Golden
> Angel hybrids (I don't know if there is a name for that).

Fine..

[...hobbyist breeding versus commercial breeding...]

Well.., hobbyist breeding and commercial breeding sometimes
seem to be two different universes. ;-)

> Before these spawns I read a lot about the prevalence of
> deformities, and therefore the need to cull, and how it is
> common for growth rates to be so dissimilar that is
> possible for faster growing fry to eat the
> smaller ones.

Hmm., in nature smallness means danger of life and only the
smartest and fittest fry will survive. The magic word is
selection. That's real life and the necessity of selection
is the first lesson a hobbyist breeder has to learn. Well
sounds a little bit precocious I know..

> I'm inclined to believe the algae and critters were
> helpful in early development.

Good luck..!
--
cu
Marco

[Köi-Lö]

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
> Then recently I started seeing bulges under parts of the algae sheets.
> Not knowing what gas was under it I broke the algae sheet with a
> siphon and sucked the gas out. Is this one of the reasons they don't
> bother with it? Why wouldn't you use algae or certain nutrient-sponge
> plants in fry grow-out tanks?
======================
I raise hundreds of GF and koi fry outdoors each year. I allow the algae to
grow at will. I also keep plants in all the outdoor fry tanks and tubs. See
website below.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:17:33 -0600, Köi-Lö > wrote:

>"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
>> Then recently I started seeing bulges under parts of the algae sheets.
>> Not knowing what gas was under it I broke the algae sheet with a
>> siphon and sucked the gas out. Is this one of the reasons they don't
>> bother with it? Why wouldn't you use algae or certain nutrient-sponge
>> plants in fry grow-out tanks?
>======================
>I raise hundreds of GF and koi fry outdoors each year. I allow the algae to
>grow at will. I also keep plants in all the outdoor fry tanks and tubs. See
>website below.

Yes and large scale fish farmers grow out their fish in massive
outdoor tanks that cannot be algae wiped constantly either. I would
not attempt to debate that that approach is not viable, especially as
these creatures reproduce quite well in even larger and more
biologically complex environments.

While I appreciate everyone's responses and details of their
experiences what I'm really asking is why small to moderate scale
commercial breeders of many kinds or ornamental fish use such
immaculate and therefore artificial rearing tanks? I would think that
the type of rearing environments you or I or the other posters have
would be preferable.

Just wondering, Koi-Lo, how and where do you sell your fish?

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:00:28 GMT, Jolly Fisherman >
wrote:

>While I appreciate everyone's responses and details of their
>experiences what I'm really asking is why small to moderate scale
>commercial breeders of many kinds or ornamental fish use such
>immaculate and therefore artificial rearing tanks? I would think that
>the type of rearing environments you or I or the other posters have
>would be preferable.

Because some people believe all the nonsense about diseases spread in
anything other than sterile environment. After 30 years breeding
fishes I've never needed to keep fry in sterile tanks. I do use clean
tanks but, as I said before, fry grow fastest with continual feeding
and frequent water changes. It's just hard work!

--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com

[Köi-Lö]

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:17:33 -0600, Köi-Lö > wrote:
>
>>"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
>>> Then recently I started seeing bulges under parts of the algae sheets.
>>> Not knowing what gas was under it I broke the algae sheet with a
>>> siphon and sucked the gas out. Is this one of the reasons they don't
>>> bother with it? Why wouldn't you use algae or certain nutrient-sponge
>>> plants in fry grow-out tanks?
>>======================
>>I raise hundreds of GF and koi fry outdoors each year. I allow the algae
>>to
>>grow at will. I also keep plants in all the outdoor fry tanks and tubs.
>>See
>>website below.
>
> Yes and large scale fish farmers grow out their fish in massive
> outdoor tanks that cannot be algae wiped constantly either. I would
> not attempt to debate that that approach is not viable, especially as
> these creatures reproduce quite well in even larger and more
> biologically complex environments.
>
> While I appreciate everyone's responses and details of their
> experiences what I'm really asking is why small to moderate scale
> commercial breeders of many kinds or ornamental fish use such
> immaculate and therefore artificial rearing tanks? I would think that
> the type of rearing environments you or I or the other posters have
> would be preferable.

In my opinion it is preferable. What they're raising are "hothouse"
flowers. How will they develop good immune systems in such a ultra clean
environment? What happens when they have to face the real world in a pond
or tank?

>
> Just wondering, Koi-Lo, how and where do you sell your fish?

Most of them are sold in large lots to Aquarium and Pond stores in the
spring and early summer. The rest are sold locally through word of mouth.
That applies to my Shubunkin goldfish as well. The culls go into farm ponds
for mosquito control. I give them away. It's a self supporting hobby these
days. :-)
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:34:21 -0600, Köi-Lö > wrote:

>In my opinion it is preferable. What they're raising are "hothouse"
>flowers. How will they develop good immune systems in such a ultra clean
>environment? What happens when they have to face the real world in a pond
>or tank?

I assume they don't care as they already got their money and it's easy
to just blame the customer for any problems that turn up down the line
with the fish.

>> Just wondering, Koi-Lo, how and where do you sell your fish?
>
>Most of them are sold in large lots to Aquarium and Pond stores in the
>spring and early summer. The rest are sold locally through word of mouth.
>That applies to my Shubunkin goldfish as well. The culls go into farm ponds
>for mosquito control. I give them away. It's a self supporting hobby these
>days. :-)

Interesting. I wouldn't mind being able to one day at least partially
offset my aquaria expenses, but I'd imagine that's some ways down the
line...

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:32:05 +0000, wrote:

>On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:00:28 GMT, Jolly Fisherman >
>wrote:
>
>>While I appreciate everyone's responses and details of their
>>experiences what I'm really asking is why small to moderate scale
>>commercial breeders of many kinds or ornamental fish use such
>>immaculate and therefore artificial rearing tanks? I would think that
>>the type of rearing environments you or I or the other posters have
>>would be preferable.
>
>Because some people believe all the nonsense about diseases spread in
>anything other than sterile environment.

Uh huh. I thought there might be a real reason. If that is the logic
it totally misunderstands pathology, disease transmission, and the
role of microorganisms in heath. It is a bit bizarre of a miss when
the same ppl are relying on large colonies of _bacteria_ to run their
filters.

> After 30 years breeding
>fishes I've never needed to keep fry in sterile tanks. I do use clean
>tanks but, as I said before, fry grow fastest with continual feeding
>and frequent water changes. It's just hard work!

Makes sense to me

[Larry Blanchard]

Jolly Fisherman wrote:

>>Most of them are sold in large lots to Aquarium and Pond stores in the
>>spring and early summer.**The*rest*are*sold*locally*through*word*of *mouth.
>>That applies to my Shubunkin goldfish as well.**The*culls*go*into*farm*ponds
>>for mosquito control.**I*give*them*away.**It's*a*self*supportin g*hobby*these
>>days.**:-)
>
> Interesting.**I*wouldn't*mind*being*able*to*one*da y*at*least*partially
> offset my aquaria expenses, but I'd imagine that's some ways down the
> line...

I currently have a tank with at least 40-50 dwarf neon rainbow fry swimming
around and more keep hatching every day. If I can keep them alive I might be
able to pay a few expenses :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

[Rich]

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:17:33 -0600, Köi-Lö > wrote:
>
>>"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
>>> Then recently I started seeing bulges under parts of the algae sheets.
>>> Not knowing what gas was under it I broke the algae sheet with a
>>> siphon and sucked the gas out. Is this one of the reasons they don't
>>> bother with it? Why wouldn't you use algae or certain nutrient-sponge
>>> plants in fry grow-out tanks?
>>======================
>>I raise hundreds of GF and koi fry outdoors each year. I allow the algae
>>to
>>grow at will. I also keep plants in all the outdoor fry tanks and tubs.
>>See
>>website below.
>
> Yes and large scale fish farmers grow out their fish in massive
> outdoor tanks that cannot be algae wiped constantly either. I would
> not attempt to debate that that approach is not viable, especially as
> these creatures reproduce quite well in even larger and more
> biologically complex environments.
>
> While I appreciate everyone's responses and details of their
> experiences what I'm really asking is why small to moderate scale
> commercial breeders of many kinds or ornamental fish use such
> immaculate and therefore artificial rearing tanks? I would think that
> the type of rearing environments you or I or the other posters have
> would be preferable.
>
> Just wondering, Koi-Lo, how and where do you sell your fish?


This thread is a perfect example of why I lurk in this group !

My own experience is that fry do better when there's non decaying food to
pick at, all day. (so algae rich, plants etc). But if I was taking pics to
show off my fish, or if I was a commercial breeder taking pics to show
potential customers, the environment would be sterile and spotless.

Just my 2pence worth.

Rich
http://www.richdavies.com

[Köi-Lö]

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:34:21 -0600, Köi-Lö > wrote:
>
>>In my opinion it is preferable. What they're raising are "hothouse"
>>flowers. How will they develop good immune systems in such a ultra clean
>>environment? What happens when they have to face the real world in a pond
>>or tank?
>
> I assume they don't care as they already got their money and it's easy
> to just blame the customer for any problems that turn up down the line
> with the fish.

I would assume that's the case. I would also assume that's why so many
store bought fish have problems when we bring them home and they're immune
systems are suddenly bombarded with parasites and bacteria they never
encountered before. My young fish are raised outdoors and either overcome
these natural challenges or perish long before they're sold. Very few die.
Fortunately we haven't had parasite problems in years. All new fish are
quarantined and treated for parasites before they are added to the tanks or
ponds.

>>> Just wondering, Koi-Lo, how and where do you sell your fish?
>>
>>Most of them are sold in large lots to Aquarium and Pond stores in the
>>spring and early summer. The rest are sold locally through word of mouth.
>>That applies to my Shubunkin goldfish as well. The culls go into farm
>>ponds
>>for mosquito control. I give them away. It's a self supporting hobby
>>these
>>days. :-)

> Interesting. I wouldn't mind being able to one day at least partially
> offset my aquaria expenses, but I'd imagine that's some ways down the
> line...

I don't see how you can raise enough fish in aquariums to offset the cost of
the hobby. It's much more economical to raise them outdoors. That is
unless you raise something that goes for a really nice price like Discus.
Raising Angel fish and other inexpensive fish to sell for .25 each wont do
it.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Köi-Lö]

"Rich" > wrote in message
...
> My own experience is that fry do better when there's non decaying food to
> pick at, all day. (so algae rich, plants etc). But if I was taking pics to
> show off my fish, or if I was a commercial breeder taking pics to show
> potential customers, the environment would be sterile and spotless.
=======================
I would probably do the same thing. It gives a better appearance than a
tank with algae and non-crystal clear water.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 21:20:14 -0600, Köi-Lö > wrote:

<snip>

>> Interesting. I wouldn't mind being able to one day at least partially
>> offset my aquaria expenses, but I'd imagine that's some ways down the
>> line...
>
>I don't see how you can raise enough fish in aquariums to offset the cost of
>the hobby. It's much more economical to raise them outdoors. That is
>unless you raise something that goes for a really nice price like Discus.
>Raising Angel fish and other inexpensive fish to sell for .25 each wont do
>it.

That's why I think even "partially" offsetting some expenses is quite
a ways away. I'm culling heavily the angels and gourami and giving
them away to family, friends and a local nonprofit. I'm not going to
even bother raising gourami fry from future breedings. Big, young
gourami are just too cheap in retail stores.

But I do think it might be fun to take in a few dollars once in a
while with other, more exotic kinds of fish or plants. But I don't
expect to turn a profit from this hobby. Especially not on the small
scale or minimal efforts I'm willing to invest in it.

Discus is where both money & broad interest seems to be for
freshwater. My next experiments hopefully will be with apistos (wish
me luck). This is all about fun and challenge for me. I don't need
or expect another business from it.

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 21:26:34 -0600, Köi-Lö > wrote:

>
>"Rich" > wrote in message
...
>> My own experience is that fry do better when there's non decaying food to
>> pick at, all day. (so algae rich, plants etc). But if I was taking pics to
>> show off my fish, or if I was a commercial breeder taking pics to show
>> potential customers, the environment would be sterile and spotless.
>=======================
>I would probably do the same thing. It gives a better appearance than a
>tank with algae and non-crystal clear water.

I would like to think this is what I was seeing in pictures - except
there are so many that use and/or endorse indirect lighting.

[carlrs]

Jolly Fisherman wrote:

> Discus is where both money & broad interest seems to be for
> freshwater. My next experiments hopefully will be with apistos (wish
> me luck). This is all about fun and challenge for me. I don't need
> or expect another business from it.

The professional breeders I have traded with were mostly in Discus
breeding, although these same breeders also bred angels and Afrcan
cichlids. I assume they were making money at this (never asked), but
they are still in this same location in So. El Monte, CA today.
My main experience was the same as Koi-Lo, I have bred shubunkins and
Koi, but I have made money with the Koi, and a did not give that much
special attention or additional care to them other than a good
environment and some powdered Spirulina Flake.
I also have bred Mbuna and Tanganyika cichlids. As with the Koi, I
think the Tanganyika at least paid for themselves. And of coarse I have
had livebearers do their thing, but that hardly counts as breeding for
me (at least the way I have done this, as I do not want to insult
professional guppy beeders would breed magnificant strains of guppies).
What it come down to in my view is a qualtiy environment, which is what
about everyone here has basically alluded to. Everytime I have been
successful (often by accident) the environment was in excellent
condition and this included anemones, starfish and similar in my marine
tanks.

Carl.
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/ClearPond.html

[Köi-Lö]

"Jolly Fisherman" > wrote in message
...
> Discus is where both money & broad interest seems to be for
> freshwater. My next experiments hopefully will be with apistos (wish
> me luck). This is all about fun and challenge for me. I don't need
> or expect another business from it.
===================
Let us know how you do with them.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Köi-Lö]

"carlrs" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I also have bred Mbuna and Tanganyika cichlids.
=============
These cost me money to raise so I stopped. There wasn't enough demand for
them and I ended up with a about 200 I had to finally give away. Plus these
can't be kept outdoors where I live and were just too much work.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>