pH dilemma....

[El Roberto]

Hey there, the saga continues...

I have had my 23 litre tank for 4 weeks now with one goldfish in it, and now
it seems to be fully cycled. There's a plant in there, the fish is extra
happy, and I've been adding bacteria every so often too.

Anyway, I've bought a heater and am now intent on getting rid of the
goldfish (tank's too small, I have found a bigger one for him) and want to
put some neons and platys in my tank. So far so good, however... every time
I take a sample of my aquarium water to the local aquarium shops (I've done
this with two of them so far), they tell me that my water's too alkaline for
tropical fish and I need to lower it.

So basically I was given a piece of wood that will apparently lower the pH
(don't know the name of it, but anyway...). However, I've been doing my own
pH tests and the readings are showing a pH of 7, which as far as I can see
is fine for tropical fish.

I'm starting to think that there's a problem with the water I'm taking out
of the aquarium: basically I've been using the gravel pump to fill a 300ml
Evian bottle before driving off to the aquarium, sometimes leaving the water
in there for a couple of hours before it gets tested. Could this have
affected it in transit? Am I doing something wrong here?

It's all a little confusing: needless to say I can't wait to get these fish
but I want the pH to be just right. As I've said in other posts my KH is
just about zero, the tap water here is very soft in comparison and thus the
buffering capacity isn't great.

Any suggestions? I don't want to have to wait for weeks / months for the
piece of wood to do its work - sounds a bit crazy, really.

help!

Robbie

[Eric]

On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:08:27 -0600, El Roberto wrote
(in article >):

> Hey there, the saga continues...
>
> I have had my 23 litre tank for 4 weeks now with one goldfish in it, and now
> it seems to be fully cycled. There's a plant in there, the fish is extra
> happy, and I've been adding bacteria every so often too.
>
> Anyway, I've bought a heater and am now intent on getting rid of the
> goldfish (tank's too small, I have found a bigger one for him) and want to
> put some neons and platys in my tank. So far so good, however... every time
> I take a sample of my aquarium water to the local aquarium shops (I've done
> this with two of them so far), they tell me that my water's too alkaline for
> tropical fish and I need to lower it.
>
> So basically I was given a piece of wood that will apparently lower the pH
> (don't know the name of it, but anyway...). However, I've been doing my own
> pH tests and the readings are showing a pH of 7, which as far as I can see
> is fine for tropical fish.
>
> I'm starting to think that there's a problem with the water I'm taking out
> of the aquarium: basically I've been using the gravel pump to fill a 300ml
> Evian bottle before driving off to the aquarium, sometimes leaving the water
> in there for a couple of hours before it gets tested. Could this have
> affected it in transit? Am I doing something wrong here?
>
> It's all a little confusing: needless to say I can't wait to get these fish
> but I want the pH to be just right. As I've said in other posts my KH is
> just about zero, the tap water here is very soft in comparison and thus the
> buffering capacity isn't great.
>
> Any suggestions? I don't want to have to wait for weeks / months for the
> piece of wood to do its work - sounds a bit crazy, really.


Your shop is screwy. If your water is not too alkaline to drink, there are
fish you can keep in it. Platties love hard water.

-E

[carlrs]

El Roberto wrote:
> Hey there, the saga continues...
>
> I have had my 23 litre tank for 4 weeks now with one goldfish in it, and now
> it seems to be fully cycled. There's a plant in there, the fish is extra
> happy, and I've been adding bacteria every so often too.
>
> Anyway, I've bought a heater and am now intent on getting rid of the
> goldfish (tank's too small, I have found a bigger one for him) and want to
> put some neons and platys in my tank. So far so good, however... every time
> I take a sample of my aquarium water to the local aquarium shops (I've done
> this with two of them so far), they tell me that my water's too alkaline for
> tropical fish and I need to lower it.
>
> So basically I was given a piece of wood that will apparently lower the pH
> (don't know the name of it, but anyway...). However, I've been doing my own
> pH tests and the readings are showing a pH of 7, which as far as I can see
> is fine for tropical fish.
>

> I'm starting to think that there's a problem with the water I'm taking out
> of the aquarium: basically I've been using the gravel pump to fill a 300ml
> Evian bottle before driving off to the aquarium, sometimes leaving the water
> in there for a couple of hours before it gets tested. Could this have
> affected it in transit? Am I doing something wrong here?
>
> It's all a little confusing: needless to say I can't wait to get these fish
> but I want the pH to be just right. As I've said in other posts my KH is
> just about zero, the tap water here is very soft in comparison and thus the
> buffering capacity isn't great.
>
> Any suggestions? I don't want to have to wait for weeks / months for the
> piece of wood to do its work - sounds a bit crazy, really.
>
> help!
>
> Robbie

The water bottle is fine for transport (we have used them for our
maintenance business).
You need to improve your kH to at least 80 ppm (I prefer Wonder shells
as they add electrolytes and magnesium too).
Your pH of 7.0 is fine for tetras, in fact I have successfully kept
many Tetras in a higher pH of 7.5 and have also kept Platties with them
at this pH too.

Carl
http://aquarium-info.blogspot.com/

[swarvegorilla]

"El Roberto" > wrote in message
...
> Hey there, the saga continues...
>
> I have had my 23 litre tank for 4 weeks now with one goldfish in it, and
> now it seems to be fully cycled. There's a plant in there, the fish is
> extra happy, and I've been adding bacteria every so often too.
>
> Anyway, I've bought a heater and am now intent on getting rid of the
> goldfish (tank's too small, I have found a bigger one for him) and want to
> put some neons and platys in my tank. So far so good, however... every
> time I take a sample of my aquarium water to the local aquarium shops
> (I've done this with two of them so far), they tell me that my water's too
> alkaline for tropical fish and I need to lower it.
>
> So basically I was given a piece of wood that will apparently lower the pH
> (don't know the name of it, but anyway...). However, I've been doing my
> own pH tests and the readings are showing a pH of 7, which as far as I can
> see is fine for tropical fish.
>
> I'm starting to think that there's a problem with the water I'm taking out
> of the aquarium: basically I've been using the gravel pump to fill a 300ml
> Evian bottle before driving off to the aquarium, sometimes leaving the
> water in there for a couple of hours before it gets tested. Could this
> have affected it in transit? Am I doing something wrong here?
>
> It's all a little confusing: needless to say I can't wait to get these
> fish but I want the pH to be just right. As I've said in other posts my KH
> is just about zero, the tap water here is very soft in comparison and thus
> the buffering capacity isn't great.
>
> Any suggestions? I don't want to have to wait for weeks / months for the
> piece of wood to do its work - sounds a bit crazy, really.
>
> help!
>
> Robbie
>
>


your lfs are idiots
platys and neons like different water so ya gotta comprimise anyway
I'd chuck a little bit of shellgrit on the bottem
and the bit of wood
and start stocking
pH is never a problem if you keep up small regular water changes

[El Roberto]

"swarvegorilla" > wrote in message
...

> your lfs are idiots
> platys and neons like different water so ya gotta comprimise anyway
> I'd chuck a little bit of shellgrit on the bottem
> and the bit of wood
> and start stocking
> pH is never a problem if you keep up small regular water changes

Yeah, that's what I thought! If my pH is 7, then according to fishlore.com
(which seems a reliable source, no?) then tetras will do fine between a pH
of 5-7.5, whilst platys will take 7-8 (which suggests that an alkaline pH is
actually better for them!).

Tell me - is it quite common for people to have misinformation and problems
like that with local fish stores? I assumed they'd all be experts,
but is this not the case? I mean, that is TWO different shops who have told
me that my pH is too high - what gives?!

cheers

Rob

[carlrs]

El Roberto wrote:
> "swarvegorilla" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > your lfs are idiots
> > platys and neons like different water so ya gotta comprimise anyway
> > I'd chuck a little bit of shellgrit on the bottem
> > and the bit of wood
> > and start stocking
> > pH is never a problem if you keep up small regular water changes
>
> Yeah, that's what I thought! If my pH is 7, then according to fishlore.com
> (which seems a reliable source, no?) then tetras will do fine between a pH
> of 5-7.5, whilst platys will take 7-8 (which suggests that an alkaline pH is
> actually better for them!).
>
> Tell me - is it quite common for people to have misinformation and problems
> like that with local fish stores? I assumed they'd all be experts,
> but is this not the case? I mean, that is TWO different shops who have told
> me that my pH is too high - what gives?!
>
> cheers
>
> Rob

I will be even more blunt about some LFS; We were always here all sorts
of strange stories in about every subject you can imagine. We decided
to send persons with similar questions, but worded a little different,
especially when it came to the amount available to spend. We got
different answers to basically the same question from the same persons,
usually to dishonestly extract more money from the consumers when this
more expensive purchase was not needed.

Carl

[Eric]

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 05:41:18 -0600, El Roberto wrote
(in article >):


>
> Yeah, that's what I thought! If my pH is 7, then according to fishlore.com
> (which seems a reliable source, no?) then tetras will do fine between a pH
> of 5-7.5, whilst platys will take 7-8 (which suggests that an alkaline pH is
> actually better for them!).
>
> Tell me - is it quite common for people to have misinformation and problems
> like that with local fish stores? I assumed they'd all be experts,
> but is this not the case? I mean, that is TWO different shops who have told
> me that my pH is too high - what gives?!

I used to work for one of the major pet supply chains in the US. We had pH
8.1 water. We never did a thing about it , and were instructed to warn
customers to be careful about wanting to adjust their pH. pH is the least
important parameter affecting fish health, and it's the most difficult water
quality issue to try to alter.

It's better to try to match your fish to your pH, instead of the other way
around.

And I might add that the quality of the stock trumps all. We would have a
third of the swordtails die in every shipment even though our high pH water
was perfect for them . Yet ram chichlids would do fine.


-E

[swarvegorilla]

"El Roberto" > wrote in message
...
>
> "swarvegorilla" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> your lfs are idiots
>> platys and neons like different water so ya gotta comprimise anyway
>> I'd chuck a little bit of shellgrit on the bottem
>> and the bit of wood
>> and start stocking
>> pH is never a problem if you keep up small regular water changes
>
> Yeah, that's what I thought! If my pH is 7, then according to fishlore.com
> (which seems a reliable source, no?) then tetras will do fine between a pH
> of 5-7.5, whilst platys will take 7-8 (which suggests that an alkaline pH
> is actually better for them!).
>
> Tell me - is it quite common for people to have misinformation and
> problems like that with local fish stores? I assumed they'd all be
> experts,
> but is this not the case? I mean, that is TWO different shops who have
> told me that my pH is too high - what gives?!
>
> cheers
>
> Rob

I have worked in a lfs for many a year now.
Before that I was a breeder of everything I could get me hands on in the
hobby scene
the learning curve is bloody steep if no one helps you out
I have always done my best to give my customers the start I never got
I mean I really cram the nitrate cycle down their throats some days
they don't get sea horses in winter if they don't have a chiller yet for the
coming summer
no oscars for smaller than 4 foot tanks
but it's hard
many customers are used to people going after their money first and....
well they lie.
My favourite customer is one who doesn't tap on tanks
controls their kids
Has done a bit of research and asks for advice on every little thing that
they are unsure on.
It can be hard when we are busy, sometimes you can't give 100% to one
person, just too many to serve.
sometimes you have to tell people to get kids outta tanks
people steal stuff, mess with filters
The lfs can be a stressful work environment
with hostile customers, a million things to do....
AHHHHHHRG!
but those are the rare days
I say check out all the shops in your area
ask to speak to the 'fish person' or when is best to meet them
each area usually has a store with someone with a sorta clue to chat with
but yea short answer
90% of industry has no clue
and at least 50% of big fish kills are caused by cleaning filters in
tapwater in my experience.
THE PROBLEM is that in the olden days pH was such an important ritual
the nitrate cycle pretty much made it obselete
for day to day tank maintenence
if partial water changes are kept up
I treat every customer tank as a unique experiment
that way we work it all out with tests
no guesses, and over a few tests so the customer can SEE the process in
action
I figure at our store we build better aquarists
I don't say that lightly or with a big head but I turn goldfish keepers into
marine aquarists with 6 foot marine octopus tanks.
And I do it by building up their confidence, yes I sell them the equipment
and livestock.
But I also do my best to keep them in the hobby and loving it.
That way they can put food in my mouth for years to come.
Often I will have a mouthful of Malawi fry that I have no where to raise,
a customer may come in after suffering a tank wipe out.
finished with the hobby and very upset.
the mere fact of letting them watch you milk a few fish
giving them a cycled air powered sponge filter
and sending them home with a few for free
can bring them back into the hobby
What I mean to say is, find a good fish person
when you do find them
be nice
flattering and don't ask for a discount at first
you usually get it in time, our get service worth it
These days people buy all there **** on the net, and bring it in if they
ever have problems with it
sigh
hard to know enough and be willing to do it for the usual wage
be nice when ya find a guru
and your set
otherwise read read read
oh and Netmax is a good start
cluey dude

[NetMax]

"swarvegorilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "El Roberto" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "swarvegorilla" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> your lfs are idiots
>>> platys and neons like different water so ya gotta comprimise anyway
>>> I'd chuck a little bit of shellgrit on the bottem
>>> and the bit of wood
>>> and start stocking
>>> pH is never a problem if you keep up small regular water changes
>>
>> Yeah, that's what I thought! If my pH is 7, then according to
>> fishlore.com (which seems a reliable source, no?) then tetras will do
>> fine between a pH of 5-7.5, whilst platys will take 7-8 (which suggests
>> that an alkaline pH is actually better for them!).
>>
>> Tell me - is it quite common for people to have misinformation and
>> problems like that with local fish stores? I assumed they'd all be
>> experts,
>> but is this not the case? I mean, that is TWO different shops who have
>> told me that my pH is too high - what gives?!
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Rob
>
> I have worked in a lfs for many a year now.
> Before that I was a breeder of everything I could get me hands on in the
> hobby scene
> the learning curve is bloody steep if no one helps you out
> I have always done my best to give my customers the start I never got
> I mean I really cram the nitrate cycle down their throats some days
> they don't get sea horses in winter if they don't have a chiller yet for
> the coming summer
> no oscars for smaller than 4 foot tanks
> but it's hard
> many customers are used to people going after their money first and....
> well they lie.
> My favourite customer is one who doesn't tap on tanks
> controls their kids
> Has done a bit of research and asks for advice on every little thing that
> they are unsure on.
> It can be hard when we are busy, sometimes you can't give 100% to one
> person, just too many to serve.
> sometimes you have to tell people to get kids outta tanks
> people steal stuff, mess with filters
> The lfs can be a stressful work environment
> with hostile customers, a million things to do....
> AHHHHHHRG!
> but those are the rare days
> I say check out all the shops in your area
> ask to speak to the 'fish person' or when is best to meet them
> each area usually has a store with someone with a sorta clue to chat
> with
> but yea short answer
> 90% of industry has no clue
> and at least 50% of big fish kills are caused by cleaning filters in
> tapwater in my experience.
> THE PROBLEM is that in the olden days pH was such an important ritual
> the nitrate cycle pretty much made it obselete
> for day to day tank maintenence
> if partial water changes are kept up
> I treat every customer tank as a unique experiment
> that way we work it all out with tests
> no guesses, and over a few tests so the customer can SEE the process in
> action
> I figure at our store we build better aquarists
> I don't say that lightly or with a big head but I turn goldfish keepers
> into marine aquarists with 6 foot marine octopus tanks.
> And I do it by building up their confidence, yes I sell them the equipment
> and livestock.
> But I also do my best to keep them in the hobby and loving it.
> That way they can put food in my mouth for years to come.
> Often I will have a mouthful of Malawi fry that I have no where to raise,
> a customer may come in after suffering a tank wipe out.
> finished with the hobby and very upset.
> the mere fact of letting them watch you milk a few fish
> giving them a cycled air powered sponge filter
> and sending them home with a few for free
> can bring them back into the hobby
> What I mean to say is, find a good fish person
> when you do find them
> be nice
> flattering and don't ask for a discount at first
> you usually get it in time, our get service worth it
> These days people buy all there **** on the net, and bring it in if they
> ever have problems with it
> sigh
> hard to know enough and be willing to do it for the usual wage
> be nice when ya find a guru
> and your set
> otherwise read read read
> oh and Netmax is a good start
> cluey dude

I'm reading this and nodding my head. I didn't expect to see my name at the
bottom though, thanks. I had a customer come in who had a complete tank
wipe-out (didn't quarantined the wrong fish from a big box store) and he was
really discouraged (and feeling guilty cause he knew he should of
quarantined). He wasn't a real regular, but he'd been in often enough that
I mostly knew what he had lost. This guy didn't have much money (which is
why he would buy cheaper fish than I sold).

If you work in any fish store, you know that some fish bring in
foot-traffic, other fish bring in sales, and then, scattered all around the
fishroom, there are fish which are just not pulling their weight. The still
eat and need their gravel cleaned, but they aren't selling and they aren't
attracting people to the store. Sometimes they're odd balls, or gifts from
customers, or the local market was just saturated (and I might have a tank
of them and their fry growing up)....only so many Keyhole cichlids you can
sell.

These fish were perfect for charity cases like this (or the 10 year-old fish
fanatic with no money, or the desperate mom trying to stock her kid's tank
for xmas with money she really couldn't afford to spend). Maybe I was a
pushover, but I helped out quite a few people, and it really didn't cost the
store anything, but it gave a lot. Life in the LFS was a real mixed bag of
stuff.

cheers
--
http://www.netmax.tk
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium

[swarvegorilla]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "swarvegorilla" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "El Roberto" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "swarvegorilla" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> your lfs are idiots
>>>> platys and neons like different water so ya gotta comprimise anyway
>>>> I'd chuck a little bit of shellgrit on the bottem
>>>> and the bit of wood
>>>> and start stocking
>>>> pH is never a problem if you keep up small regular water changes
>>>
>>> Yeah, that's what I thought! If my pH is 7, then according to
>>> fishlore.com (which seems a reliable source, no?) then tetras will do
>>> fine between a pH of 5-7.5, whilst platys will take 7-8 (which suggests
>>> that an alkaline pH is actually better for them!).
>>>
>>> Tell me - is it quite common for people to have misinformation and
>>> problems like that with local fish stores? I assumed they'd all be
>>> experts,
>>> but is this not the case? I mean, that is TWO different shops who have
>>> told me that my pH is too high - what gives?!
>>>
>>> cheers
>>>
>>> Rob
>>
>> I have worked in a lfs for many a year now.
>> Before that I was a breeder of everything I could get me hands on in the
>> hobby scene
>> the learning curve is bloody steep if no one helps you out
>> I have always done my best to give my customers the start I never got
>> I mean I really cram the nitrate cycle down their throats some days
>> they don't get sea horses in winter if they don't have a chiller yet for
>> the coming summer
>> no oscars for smaller than 4 foot tanks
>> but it's hard
>> many customers are used to people going after their money first and....
>> well they lie.
>> My favourite customer is one who doesn't tap on tanks
>> controls their kids
>> Has done a bit of research and asks for advice on every little thing that
>> they are unsure on.
>> It can be hard when we are busy, sometimes you can't give 100% to one
>> person, just too many to serve.
>> sometimes you have to tell people to get kids outta tanks
>> people steal stuff, mess with filters
>> The lfs can be a stressful work environment
>> with hostile customers, a million things to do....
>> AHHHHHHRG!
>> but those are the rare days
>> I say check out all the shops in your area
>> ask to speak to the 'fish person' or when is best to meet them
>> each area usually has a store with someone with a sorta clue to chat
>> with
>> but yea short answer
>> 90% of industry has no clue
>> and at least 50% of big fish kills are caused by cleaning filters in
>> tapwater in my experience.
>> THE PROBLEM is that in the olden days pH was such an important ritual
>> the nitrate cycle pretty much made it obselete
>> for day to day tank maintenence
>> if partial water changes are kept up
>> I treat every customer tank as a unique experiment
>> that way we work it all out with tests
>> no guesses, and over a few tests so the customer can SEE the process in
>> action
>> I figure at our store we build better aquarists
>> I don't say that lightly or with a big head but I turn goldfish keepers
>> into marine aquarists with 6 foot marine octopus tanks.
>> And I do it by building up their confidence, yes I sell them the
>> equipment and livestock.
>> But I also do my best to keep them in the hobby and loving it.
>> That way they can put food in my mouth for years to come.
>> Often I will have a mouthful of Malawi fry that I have no where to raise,
>> a customer may come in after suffering a tank wipe out.
>> finished with the hobby and very upset.
>> the mere fact of letting them watch you milk a few fish
>> giving them a cycled air powered sponge filter
>> and sending them home with a few for free
>> can bring them back into the hobby
>> What I mean to say is, find a good fish person
>> when you do find them
>> be nice
>> flattering and don't ask for a discount at first
>> you usually get it in time, our get service worth it
>> These days people buy all there **** on the net, and bring it in if they
>> ever have problems with it
>> sigh
>> hard to know enough and be willing to do it for the usual wage
>> be nice when ya find a guru
>> and your set
>> otherwise read read read
>> oh and Netmax is a good start
>> cluey dude
>
> I'm reading this and nodding my head. I didn't expect to see my name at
> the bottom though, thanks. I had a customer come in who had a complete
> tank wipe-out (didn't quarantined the wrong fish from a big box store) and
> he was really discouraged (and feeling guilty cause he knew he should of
> quarantined). He wasn't a real regular, but he'd been in often enough
> that I mostly knew what he had lost. This guy didn't have much money
> (which is why he would buy cheaper fish than I sold).
>
> If you work in any fish store, you know that some fish bring in
> foot-traffic, other fish bring in sales, and then, scattered all around
> the fishroom, there are fish which are just not pulling their weight. The
> still eat and need their gravel cleaned, but they aren't selling and they
> aren't attracting people to the store. Sometimes they're odd balls, or
> gifts from customers, or the local market was just saturated (and I might
> have a tank of them and their fry growing up)....only so many Keyhole
> cichlids you can sell.
>
> These fish were perfect for charity cases like this (or the 10 year-old
> fish fanatic with no money, or the desperate mom trying to stock her kid's
> tank for xmas with money she really couldn't afford to spend). Maybe I
> was a pushover, but I helped out quite a few people, and it really didn't
> cost the store anything, but it gave a lot. Life in the LFS was a real
> mixed bag of stuff.
>
> cheers
> --
> http://www.netmax.tk
> http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
>

Mate you have helped me out on a heap of little things that always bugged
me.
Kinda strange to take some ones thoughts and they never know you were there.
But I try to pass on whatever I learn, where ever I learn it.
If only so by talking about it I remember it......
:)
It truely is insane the fish-info-brotherhood, works on so many levels
If you can find someone who likes fish to talk to
you are on your way!