Fishless cycle

[James Roberge]

Hello everyone. I am trying to get my first tank set up (55 gal). I
have read much on the web about initial set up of the tank and being
that i have 2 small children who i did not want to explain the many
deaths that could be involved in doing a traditional cycle, i decided to
go ahead with the fishless cycle.

Water has been conditioned to remove chlorine of course. Everything has
been thoroughly cleaned (without soap). I have the temperature of the
tank at 80 degrees F.

I started the process on october 9th using clear ammonia (no additives),
adding about 1ml every day. Ammonia levels of course rose, and after
about 3 weeks ammonia started to drop and nitrite began to rise. Now,
more than 7 weeks from when i first started, i have had no sign of
nitrate buildup and no sign of nitrites decreasing. Some have said to
get some used filter media from my lfs, but i am a little leery doing
this because i do not want to introduce any diseases into my tank.

I still add 1ml of ammonia each day to keep the nitrosomonas going, but
i seem to have hit a wall with the nitrobacter. My research indicate
people doing a fishless cycle in as little as 15 days without
introducing any outside bacteria colonies. Yet here i am at more than 7
weeks and nothing is happening.

Anyone got any suggestions???

James

[Gail Futoran]

"James Roberge" > wrote in message
...
> Hello everyone. I am trying to get my first tank set up (55 gal). I have
> read much on the web about initial set up of the tank and being that i
> have 2 small children who i did not want to explain the many deaths that
> could be involved in doing a traditional cycle, i decided to go ahead with
> the fishless cycle.
>
> Water has been conditioned to remove chlorine of course. Everything has
> been thoroughly cleaned (without soap). I have the temperature of the
> tank at 80 degrees F.
>
> I started the process on october 9th using clear ammonia (no additives),
> adding about 1ml every day. Ammonia levels of course rose, and after
> about 3 weeks ammonia started to drop and nitrite began to rise. Now,
> more than 7 weeks from when i first started, i have had no sign of nitrate
> buildup and no sign of nitrites decreasing. Some have said to get some
> used filter media from my lfs, but i am a little leery doing this because
> i do not want to introduce any diseases into my tank.
>
> I still add 1ml of ammonia each day to keep the nitrosomonas going, but i
> seem to have hit a wall with the nitrobacter. My research indicate people
> doing a fishless cycle in as little as 15 days without introducing any
> outside bacteria colonies. Yet here i am at more than 7 weeks and nothing
> is happening.
>
> Anyone got any suggestions???
>
> James

You might try reducing the ammonia. See the paragraph titled "Too Much
Ammonia?":
http://www.tropicalfishcentre.co.uk/Fishlesscycle.htm

It's been so long since I fishless cycled a tank I can't recall how long it
took, except that it seemed to take longer than any of the online articles
said it should.

Gail

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 19:12:51 -0600, James Roberge
> wrote:

>Hello everyone. I am trying to get my first tank set up (55 gal). I
>have read much on the web about initial set up of the tank and being
>that i have 2 small children who i did not want to explain the many
>deaths that could be involved in doing a traditional cycle, i decided to
>go ahead with the fishless cycle.
>
>Water has been conditioned to remove chlorine of course. Everything has
>been thoroughly cleaned (without soap). I have the temperature of the
>tank at 80 degrees F.
>
>I started the process on october 9th using clear ammonia (no additives),
> adding about 1ml every day. Ammonia levels of course rose, and after
>about 3 weeks ammonia started to drop and nitrite began to rise. Now,
>more than 7 weeks from when i first started, i have had no sign of
>nitrate buildup and no sign of nitrites decreasing. Some have said to
>get some used filter media from my lfs, but i am a little leery doing
>this because i do not want to introduce any diseases into my tank.

That will happen anyway when you bring your first fish home. Frankly
IMHO it probably isn't really a problem if it comes from the same
source as the fish you buy. Although it does scare me a little too.

>I still add 1ml of ammonia each day to keep the nitrosomonas going, but
> i seem to have hit a wall with the nitrobacter. My research indicate
>people doing a fishless cycle in as little as 15 days without
>introducing any outside bacteria colonies. Yet here i am at more than 7
>weeks and nothing is happening.

The process is accelerated by raising the temperature. That's how
they did it in 2 weeks. But you can have problems if you suddenly
drop the temperature severely when you are ready for fish.

>Anyone got any suggestions???
>
>James

You didn't say what is going on now with Ammonia levels. Gail might
be right. But if you truly have hit a wall try adding aeration or
increasing water surface agitation (if not using a wet-dry type
filter) and raising the temperature. I am relatively new to the hobby
so haven't actually done a fishless cycling because IMHO it is
obsolete due to the Bio-Spira product. Now I don't even use that
because there's always some cultured floss in at least one of my tanks
ready to go. If your tank hasn't actually cycled getting a hold of
some source of clean culture would be great.

[James Roberge]

Gail Futoran wrote:
> "James Roberge" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hello everyone. I am trying to get my first tank set up (55 gal). I have
>> read much on the web about initial set up of the tank and being that i
>> have 2 small children who i did not want to explain the many deaths that
>> could be involved in doing a traditional cycle, i decided to go ahead with
>> the fishless cycle.
>>
>> Water has been conditioned to remove chlorine of course. Everything has
>> been thoroughly cleaned (without soap). I have the temperature of the
>> tank at 80 degrees F.
>>
>> I started the process on october 9th using clear ammonia (no additives),
>> adding about 1ml every day. Ammonia levels of course rose, and after
>> about 3 weeks ammonia started to drop and nitrite began to rise. Now,
>> more than 7 weeks from when i first started, i have had no sign of nitrate
>> buildup and no sign of nitrites decreasing. Some have said to get some
>> used filter media from my lfs, but i am a little leery doing this because
>> i do not want to introduce any diseases into my tank.
>>
>> I still add 1ml of ammonia each day to keep the nitrosomonas going, but i
>> seem to have hit a wall with the nitrobacter. My research indicate people
>> doing a fishless cycle in as little as 15 days without introducing any
>> outside bacteria colonies. Yet here i am at more than 7 weeks and nothing
>> is happening.
>>
>> Anyone got any suggestions???
>>
>> James
>
> You might try reducing the ammonia. See the paragraph titled "Too Much
> Ammonia?":
> http://www.tropicalfishcentre.co.uk/Fishlesscycle.htm
>
> It's been so long since I fishless cycled a tank I can't recall how long it
> took, except that it seemed to take longer than any of the online articles
> said it should.
>
> Gail
>
>

I check my ammonia levels right before adding more, and it is always 0.
The filter is capable of removing the 1 ml i add each day and
converting it to nitrite. Nitrite on the other hand is way off the
scale, it always reads as high as my kit goes. Should I do a series to
water changes to bring the nitrite down to a readable level.

Jolly fisherman mentioned in his post the product "Bio-Spira" My
research had led me to believe that these products do not work. I had
even added some "bacteria in a bottle" at about week 3, but it has done
nothing. Granted it was the "generic" brand from petsmart. Perhaps
using some brand name stuff would yield better results?

James

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 23:03:38 -0600, James Roberge
> wrote:

<snip>

>> You might try reducing the ammonia. See the paragraph titled "Too Much
>> Ammonia?":
>> http://www.tropicalfishcentre.co.uk/Fishlesscycle.htm
>>
>> It's been so long since I fishless cycled a tank I can't recall how long it
>> took, except that it seemed to take longer than any of the online articles
>> said it should.

I read a number of accounts of it taking up to 2 months or more, so
it's possible this case isn't so terribly far off reasonable
expectations.

>I check my ammonia levels right before adding more, and it is always 0.
> The filter is capable of removing the 1 ml i add each day and
>converting it to nitrite. Nitrite on the other hand is way off the
>scale, it always reads as high as my kit goes. Should I do a series to
>water changes to bring the nitrite down to a readable level.

Hopefully someone will tell you from experience. It's probably a good
idea because it might just be that the bacteria are there but just
can't cope with all the old _and_ current nitrite. Lowering the
levels mean you can break the suspense and actually find out what's
going on.

OTOH often things move faster when you leave things alone and resist
the urge to "clean".

>Jolly fisherman mentioned in his post the product "Bio-Spira" My
>research had led me to believe that these products do not work. I had
>even added some "bacteria in a bottle" at about week 3, but it has done
>nothing. Granted it was the "generic" brand from petsmart. Perhaps
>using some brand name stuff would yield better results?

AFAIK Bio-Spira is the only such product that works. However there
are some caveats. The pouches are perishable, with a limited shelf
life. Some water conditioners do indeed ruin the bio-spira. I
learned the hard way Ammo-Lock 2 should never be used with it. Seems
strange, I know. But there are more aerobic nitrifying bacteria out
there besides what Marineland has cultured & "identified".

But I'd hate to see you go buy it now after you invested 7 weeks in
fishless cycling and are apparently pretty far along.

[Sysiphus]

James Roberge wrote:
> Hello everyone. I am trying to get my first tank set up (55 gal). I
> have read much on the web about initial set up of the tank and being
> that i have 2 small children who i did not want to explain the many
> deaths that could be involved in doing a traditional cycle, i decided to
> go ahead with the fishless cycle.
>
> Water has been conditioned to remove chlorine of course. Everything has
> been thoroughly cleaned (without soap). I have the temperature of the
> tank at 80 degrees F.
>
> I started the process on october 9th using clear ammonia (no additives),
> adding about 1ml every day. Ammonia levels of course rose, and after
> about 3 weeks ammonia started to drop and nitrite began to rise. Now,
> more than 7 weeks from when i first started, i have had no sign of
> nitrate buildup and no sign of nitrites decreasing. Some have said to
> get some used filter media from my lfs, but i am a little leery doing
> this because i do not want to introduce any diseases into my tank.
>

I just finished a fishless cycle on my 90 and it took 1 month - plus I
used an accelorated process of high initial ammonia (1/4 cup) and temp
set to 85. During my process I felt it was necessary to put more
"seed" material in the tank from a well established one. This was
after about two weeks. If you have access to some mulum from another
established tank that might help. I would not be too concerned about
introducing something into the tank without fish. Both the "toxic"
process you are creating in the tank and the amount of time "things"
(the highly techinical term for diseases) would go without hosts pretty
well assures you won't have a problem.

In my case when the ammonia was all used up (zero on the test kit) and
nitrItes rising - I was adding 1/4 TSP of ammonia per day (by the way
my ammonia was 10% solution) and about three weeks later the NitrItes
started to fall slowly and the NitrAtes were on the rise. Rememer: 4-5
drops NH3 / 10 gal / day until nitrite peaks, then reduce to 2-3 drops
/ 10 gal / day.

I suggest finding the additional established tank BIO material and
waiting a bit longer.

[IDzine01]

I have done many fishless cycles and they usually took me about 4 weeks
to complete. I have had mixed results with Bio Spira as well, though of
all the bacterial additives I think this is the only credible product
out there. My approach has been to add enough ammonia to more then
compensate for the fish load. In my case around 3 ppm has been
sufficient. Then once nitrites spike I cut the ammonia in half until
nitrates appear. Sometimes the whole project works smoothly, other
times it has gone much like you have described.

I assume you have substrate and a filter running to encourage bacterial
growth?

~Christie
here's a link to my cycling page...
http://www.nippyfish.net/nitrogencycle.html

James Roberge wrote:
> Hello everyone. I am trying to get my first tank set up (55 gal). I
> have read much on the web about initial set up of the tank and being
> that i have 2 small children who i did not want to explain the many
> deaths that could be involved in doing a traditional cycle, i decided to
> go ahead with the fishless cycle.
>
> Water has been conditioned to remove chlorine of course. Everything has
> been thoroughly cleaned (without soap). I have the temperature of the
> tank at 80 degrees F.
>
> I started the process on october 9th using clear ammonia (no additives),
> adding about 1ml every day. Ammonia levels of course rose, and after
> about 3 weeks ammonia started to drop and nitrite began to rise. Now,
> more than 7 weeks from when i first started, i have had no sign of
> nitrate buildup and no sign of nitrites decreasing. Some have said to
> get some used filter media from my lfs, but i am a little leery doing
> this because i do not want to introduce any diseases into my tank.
>
> I still add 1ml of ammonia each day to keep the nitrosomonas going, but
> i seem to have hit a wall with the nitrobacter. My research indicate
> people doing a fishless cycle in as little as 15 days without
> introducing any outside bacteria colonies. Yet here i am at more than 7
> weeks and nothing is happening.
>
> Anyone got any suggestions???
>
> James

[James Roberge]

IDzine01 wrote:
> I have done many fishless cycles and they usually took me about 4 weeks
> to complete. I have had mixed results with Bio Spira as well, though of
> all the bacterial additives I think this is the only credible product
> out there. My approach has been to add enough ammonia to more then
> compensate for the fish load. In my case around 3 ppm has been
> sufficient. Then once nitrites spike I cut the ammonia in half until
> nitrates appear. Sometimes the whole project works smoothly, other
> times it has gone much like you have described.
>
> I assume you have substrate and a filter running to encourage bacterial
> growth?
>
> ~Christie
> here's a link to my cycling page...
> http://www.nippyfish.net/nitrogencycle.html

Yes i have my substrate and a filter running. The tank is all set up
and ready for fish once this cycle thing is done.

James

> James Roberge wrote:
>> Hello everyone. I am trying to get my first tank set up (55 gal). I
>> have read much on the web about initial set up of the tank and being
>> that i have 2 small children who i did not want to explain the many
>> deaths that could be involved in doing a traditional cycle, i decided to
>> go ahead with the fishless cycle.
>>
>> Water has been conditioned to remove chlorine of course. Everything has
>> been thoroughly cleaned (without soap). I have the temperature of the
>> tank at 80 degrees F.
>>
>> I started the process on october 9th using clear ammonia (no additives),
>> adding about 1ml every day. Ammonia levels of course rose, and after
>> about 3 weeks ammonia started to drop and nitrite began to rise. Now,
>> more than 7 weeks from when i first started, i have had no sign of
>> nitrate buildup and no sign of nitrites decreasing. Some have said to
>> get some used filter media from my lfs, but i am a little leery doing
>> this because i do not want to introduce any diseases into my tank.
>>
>> I still add 1ml of ammonia each day to keep the nitrosomonas going, but
>> i seem to have hit a wall with the nitrobacter. My research indicate
>> people doing a fishless cycle in as little as 15 days without
>> introducing any outside bacteria colonies. Yet here i am at more than 7
>> weeks and nothing is happening.
>>
>> Anyone got any suggestions???
>>
>> James
>

[IDzine01]

Yeah, I figured you probably did, but thought I had better check just
in case. ;-)

James Roberge wrote:
> IDzine01 wrote:

> > I assume you have substrate and a filter running to encourage bacterial
> > growth?

[Marco Schwarz]

Hi..

> I
> have read much on the web about initial set up of the tank and being
> that i have 2 small children who i did not want to explain the many
> deaths that could be involved in doing a traditional cycle, i decided to
> go ahead with the fishless cycle.

Well.., come from a fishkeeping tradition where 3-4 week fishless
cycles are the commom cycle form if filter mud isn't available..

> using clear ammonia (no additives),
> adding about 1ml every day. Ammonia levels of course rose, and after
> about 3 weeks ammonia started to drop and nitrite began to rise. Now,
> more than 7 weeks from when i first started, i have had no sign of
> nitrate buildup and no sign of nitrites decreasing. Some have said to
> get some used filter media from my lfs, but i am a little leery doing
> this because i do not want to introduce any diseases into my tank.

Do you keep some life plants in this tank..?

Pure ammonia is an "anorganic" food while the most nitrifying bacteria
are generally substrate oriented and used to eat organic waste..

To build up nitrifying bacteria mass C, N, P, minerals and trace
elements are neccesary..

Instead of feeding anorganic food I would recommend feeding dust-fine
milled flakes daily (daily increasing) or alternatively add some snails
that eat the flakes, digest and distribute the better available snail
poop all over the tank's substrates.. :-)

> Anyone got any suggestions???

cu
Marco

[James Roberge]

After reading some of the posts here, i decided to do a water change. I
Changed about 50% hoping to bring the nitirte into a readable
range.(which wasn't fun being that all I have is a 18.9L water jug).
After doing this change, and waiting a couple hours to ensure all the
water had mixed, I tested for nitrite and it was still higer than my kit
could read. Disappointed, I added .5ml of ammonia to the water,
increased the temperature on the tank to 28C(82-83F) and carried on with
my day.

Well, this morning, i tested my water and to my surprise, nitrite is now
at .25mg/L and nitrate is now at about 20mg/L. (ammonia is 0mg/L)

I don't know if it was the water change, or the temperature increase, or
if it was just TIME for it to happen or what, but i am happy to see some
progress!!

Thanks everyone for the responses!

James

James Roberge wrote:
> Hello everyone. I am trying to get my first tank set up (55 gal). I
> have read much on the web about initial set up of the tank and being
> that i have 2 small children who i did not want to explain the many
> deaths that could be involved in doing a traditional cycle, i decided to
> go ahead with the fishless cycle.
>
> Water has been conditioned to remove chlorine of course. Everything has
> been thoroughly cleaned (without soap). I have the temperature of the
> tank at 80 degrees F.
>
> I started the process on october 9th using clear ammonia (no additives),
> adding about 1ml every day. Ammonia levels of course rose, and after
> about 3 weeks ammonia started to drop and nitrite began to rise. Now,
> more than 7 weeks from when i first started, i have had no sign of
> nitrate buildup and no sign of nitrites decreasing. Some have said to
> get some used filter media from my lfs, but i am a little leery doing
> this because i do not want to introduce any diseases into my tank.
>
> I still add 1ml of ammonia each day to keep the nitrosomonas going, but
> i seem to have hit a wall with the nitrobacter. My research indicate
> people doing a fishless cycle in as little as 15 days without
> introducing any outside bacteria colonies. Yet here i am at more than 7
> weeks and nothing is happening.
>
> Anyone got any suggestions???
>
> James

[Jolly Fisherman]

On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 10:12:09 -0600, James Roberge
> wrote:

>After reading some of the posts here, i decided to do a water change. I
>Changed about 50% hoping to bring the nitirte into a readable
>range.(which wasn't fun being that all I have is a 18.9L water jug).
>After doing this change, and waiting a couple hours to ensure all the
>water had mixed, I tested for nitrite and it was still higer than my kit
> could read. Disappointed, I added .5ml of ammonia to the water,
>increased the temperature on the tank to 28C(82-83F) and carried on with
>my day.
>
>Well, this morning, i tested my water and to my surprise, nitrite is now
>at .25mg/L and nitrate is now at about 20mg/L. (ammonia is 0mg/L)
>
>I don't know if it was the water change, or the temperature increase, or
>if it was just TIME for it to happen or what, but i am happy to see some
>progress!!

You just proved the theory that your tank was mostly cycled but the
nitrite consuming bacteria is still a relatively small colony that was
backlogged/overwhelmed with excess nitrite that was created before
they were establishing. I'm glad to hear that you were far enough
along on the process that such a big water change was not harmful.
It's looking good. Congrats and good luck :)

>Thanks everyone for the responses!
>
>James
>
>James Roberge wrote:
>> Hello everyone. I am trying to get my first tank set up (55 gal). I
>> have read much on the web about initial set up of the tank and being
>> that i have 2 small children who i did not want to explain the many
>> deaths that could be involved in doing a traditional cycle, i decided to
>> go ahead with the fishless cycle.
>>
>> Water has been conditioned to remove chlorine of course. Everything has
>> been thoroughly cleaned (without soap). I have the temperature of the
>> tank at 80 degrees F.
>>
>> I started the process on october 9th using clear ammonia (no additives),
>> adding about 1ml every day. Ammonia levels of course rose, and after
>> about 3 weeks ammonia started to drop and nitrite began to rise. Now,
>> more than 7 weeks from when i first started, i have had no sign of
>> nitrate buildup and no sign of nitrites decreasing. Some have said to
>> get some used filter media from my lfs, but i am a little leery doing
>> this because i do not want to introduce any diseases into my tank.
>>
>> I still add 1ml of ammonia each day to keep the nitrosomonas going, but
>> i seem to have hit a wall with the nitrobacter. My research indicate
>> people doing a fishless cycle in as little as 15 days without
>> introducing any outside bacteria colonies. Yet here i am at more than 7
>> weeks and nothing is happening.
>>
>> Anyone got any suggestions???
>>
>> James

[IDzine01]

You're well on your way now. Congrats!

[nut]

James Roberge wrote:
> After reading some of the posts here, i decided to do a water change.
> I Changed about 50% hoping to bring the nitirte into a readable
> range.(which wasn't fun being that all I have is a 18.9L water jug).

Ask santa for a couple of buckets and a length of hose ;)





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