What Livestock Might I Add? (a bit long)

[Paule]

Hi all,

My marine tank is finally stable. It's in really great shape. I
guess it is time to throw it out of balance again...lol.

I'm looking to add stock and would appreciate your thoughts on an end
state vision. I think I want a mix of Fish, Inverts and Coral. (in that
order, if compatibility is an issues) Is this doable? Online Fish
Stores write about Fish Only, Reef Tanks and Reef Safe setups. Does
this mean you cannot have it all?

I currently have a Tang, some Damselfish, Coral Banded Shrimp a Fiery
Red Shrimp (it constantly hides), snails and hermit crabs.

My main question: What live stock would be ideal to add over the next
year? I'll add slowly over time so de-stabilization is minimized.

Personally, I like my Tang (Toby), and the pair of Coral Banded Shrimp
(Willie and Wayland). The Damsels were used to cycle...they are OK.
(My fish are named after country singers, but that is another thread
:-)

I'm listing the following creatures so you can better know my taste.
Obviously, many of these don't go together.
Anemone/Clownfish Pair
Long Spine Sea Urchin
Big Colorful Wrasse...Maybe a Moon a Parrot
Sand Sifting Starfish
Blue Spotted Stingray
Brain Coral
Puffer Fish
Lionfish
Gobies
Eels


I posted my setup below to assist with any questions you may have for
me.
--

Marine Setup
Fish: 1ea 5 inch Yellow Tang, 5ea Blue Damselfish (~1 in each)
Inverts: 2ea Coral Banded Shrimp, 1ea Fiery Red Shrimp, 8 Snails, 12
Hermit Crabs...

155 Gallon Rectangular Tank (18 in deep, 72 in wide, 26 in high)
Filters: Eheim Pro II Canister Filter & Dual Bak Pak Protein Skimmer
2ea 200 watt heaters
Compact High Output Florescent Lighting
Established on Aug. 18, 2006

Live Rock: ~10 lbs & a couple of "dead" porous rocks that I hope become
live over time.
2 inches of sugar grain white sand substrate

Current Conditions
Really Great, Crystal Clear Water (finally)
Temp: 78°F, pH: 8.2, Salinity: 1.025
Phosphates, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate are all unmeasurable
8 hrs Natural, Non-Direct, Daylight (8AM-4PM) with 7 Hours of
Florescent Lighting (4-11PM)

Maintenance:
Daily: Feed the Fish, 1 Thimble-Sized Cube of Various Frozen Fish or
Algae
Weekly: Water Tests & Empty/Rinse Protein Skimmer Collectors
Every 3 Weeks: 40 Gallon Water Changes, Scrape Salt Deposits, Rinse
(lightly) the Canister Pads & Gravel in Clean Salt Water & Vacuum sand
if needed.
As Needed: Clean Glass (now, about every 3 days)

[George Patterson]

Paule wrote:

> My marine tank is finally stable. It's in really great shape. I
> guess it is time to throw it out of balance again...lol.
>
> I'm looking to add stock and would appreciate your thoughts on an end
> state vision. I think I want a mix of Fish, Inverts and Coral. (in that
> order, if compatibility is an issues) Is this doable? Online Fish
> Stores write about Fish Only, Reef Tanks and Reef Safe setups. Does
> this mean you cannot have it all?

What this means is that, if you add corals and live rock to your tank, the other
inhabitants must be "reef safe" to some extent. You're used to checking to make
sure that a new fish can get along with the guys you already have? This is an
extension of that. Once you start adding inverts and/or coral, you need to
figure out if your fish will eat them.

Take a look at http://www.liveaquaria.com . The description for each animal
tells you if it's "reef-compatible" or not. If not, it likely eats something you
might have. Mix that with http://www.marinedepotlive.com . That site will tell
you what each animal eats (among other things). The two combined should give you
enough info to make an intelligent decision.

Corals need decent lighting. From what you've posted, you have what would be
called "intermediate lighting" on the Marine Depot site. Looks like that could
support a brain coral.

Frankly, it's a lot of work doing the lookups to see who eats who, and I'm not
going to do it with your laundry list of "maybe" fish. If you decide to go
further into the reef world, you might post to rec.aquaria.marine.reefs. Be
prepared for a lot of suggestions that you change your equipment. A lot of
people think that you can't keep any of this stuff without a ton of live rock, a
sump, a refugium, and an RO/DI filter.

George Patterson
Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

[Paule]

George Patterson wrote:
> What this means is that, if you add corals and live rock to your tank, the other
> inhabitants must be "reef safe" to some extent. You're used to checking to make
> sure that a new fish can get along with the guys you already have? This is an
> extension of that. Once you start adding inverts and/or coral, you need to
> figure out if your fish will eat them.
>
> Take a look at http://www.liveaquaria.com . The description for each animal
> tells you if it's "reef-compatible" or not. If not, it likely eats something you
> might have. Mix that with http://www.marinedepotlive.com . That site will tell
> you what each animal eats (among other things). The two combined should give you
> enough info to make an intelligent decision.
>
> Corals need decent lighting. From what you've posted, you have what would be
> called "intermediate lighting" on the Marine Depot site. Looks like that could
> support a brain coral.
>
> Frankly, it's a lot of work doing the lookups to see who eats who, and I'm not
> going to do it with your laundry list of "maybe" fish. If you decide to go
> further into the reef world, you might post to rec.aquaria.marine.reefs. Be
> prepared for a lot of suggestions that you change your equipment. A lot of
> people think that you can't keep any of this stuff without a ton of live rock, a
> sump, a refugium, and an RO/DI filter.
>
Thanks. I'll spend more time on those sites too...

It would be cool if there was a collection of "setups" already posted
somewhere.

[[email protected]]

Paule > wrote:
> Hi all,

> My marine tank is finally stable. It's in really great shape. I
> guess it is time to throw it out of balance again...lol.

> I'm looking to add stock and would appreciate your thoughts on an end
> state vision. I think I want a mix of Fish, Inverts and Coral. (in that
> order, if compatibility is an issues) Is this doable? Online Fish
> Stores write about Fish Only, Reef Tanks and Reef Safe setups. Does
> this mean you cannot have it all?

> I currently have a Tang, some Damselfish, Coral Banded Shrimp a Fiery
> Red Shrimp (it constantly hides), snails and hermit crabs.

> I'm listing the following creatures so you can better know my taste.
> Obviously, many of these don't go together.
> Anemone/Clownfish Pair

Good for a reef. Get a bubble anemone.

> Long Spine Sea Urchin

Look for a blue tux, if possible. Long spines are OK.

> Big Colorful Wrasse...Maybe a Moon a Parrot

No.

> Sand Sifting Starfish

OK.

> Blue Spotted Stingray

No.

> Brain Coral

OK.

> Puffer Fish

No.

> Lionfish

Love 'em, but will eat smaller fish and any shrimp.

> Gobies

Like mandarins? Good if you have a refugium.

> Eels

I love ribbon eels. Great fish. Will get rid of your damsels and shrimp
for you.

> Live Rock: ~10 lbs & a couple of "dead" porous rocks that I hope become
> live over time.

Need a lot more rock, IMO.

Mike

[Marksfish]

Okay, over here in the UK we seem to be going down the Berlin style and
Ecosystem (Miracle Mud) are quite popular. Canister filters generally are
frowned upon and regarded as nitrate factories, the jury is still out on
that one for me, although I don't have one. My tank is filtered using 10kg
of live rock on top of 30 kg of grotto rock (a man made sintered glass type
material) which is extremely porous and allows colonisation of
denitrification bacteria. I also have a sump which has about 3" of aragonite
sand, plenty of caulerpa prolifera and chaeto. My stock is quite low and the
water parameters are currently very good. I have recently added a skimmer to
my sump in an attempt to draw out more "muck" before the caulerpa bed.

What you want can be done without a sump, there are many members of a forum
I use who don't have one, although some make a little refugium in the back
of the tank to grow the algae and pods.

>My main question: What live stock would be ideal to add over the next
>year? I'll add slowly over time so de-stabilization is minimized.

>Personally, I like my Tang (Toby), and the pair of Coral Banded Shrimp
>(Willie and Wayland). The Damsels were used to cycle...they are OK.
>(My fish are named after country singers, but that is another thread
>:-)

They will all be fine in your new set up. If you decide to grow algae, make
sure you have an area where the tang can't get to it or it will disappear
surely but slowly. The damsels may give any new additions a hard time when
first put in.


>I'm listing the following creatures so you can better know my taste.
>Obviously, many of these don't go together.

>Anemone/Clownfish Pair

Try and get a cloned bubble tip anemone as these are much more hardy than
those taken from the ocean. You need to make sure your water parametrs are
very stable before getting one and make sure when you buy it they don't rip
it off the rock as it can tear the base. If necessary, take the rock it is
on as well. With the clowns, there are many varieties of tank bred fish out
there now, much easier to acclimatise to your aquarium, although they may
not accept the anemone and host something else instead.

>Long Spine Sea Urchin

If you get an urchin, make sure your rockwork is solid!! I have one and
every morning my rockwork has been re- arranged as it wanders around at
night. They will also strip your live rock of coralline alge, they love it!!

>Big Colorful Wrasse...Maybe a Moon a Parrot

Don't know

>Sand Sifting Starfish

Should be fine, but don't put it in straight away. You will need to allow
the sand bed to mature a bit and gain an amount odf critters for it to feed
on. Even then, you may find it will exhaust the food supply and you will
have to supplement its feeding.

>Blue Spotted Stingray

Wouldn't have thought so. They have big mouths.

>Brain Coral
You will need to make sure you have high enough calcium levels and a high
enough level of lighting.

>Puffer Fish

Not if you want to keep corals and shrimp. Your coral bandeds will make a
nice snack and they nip at the polyps until there is nothing left.

>Lionfish

Beautiful fish but not for a reef tank. They are messy eaters and produce a
lot of waste. I believe all of these are wild caught fish and have to adapt
to eating dead foods in the aquarium which can be difficult to train them to
do. I realise over the pond, it is more acceptable to use feeder fish, but
it is not something I would do personally.

>Gobies

True gobies should be okay. Blue cheeked will compete with your sand sifting
star and a lot slowly starve once there are no more pods. Manadarins again
need a supply of pods, although you can get them to eat brine shrip, mysis
and flake as long as they are not too emaciated when you buy them. Gobies
are also slow eaters, so you may find that the clowns, tang, etc get to the
food before them. This happened to my yellow clown gobyand I realised too
late to save it.

>Eels
Again, messy eaters and not really recommended for the reef, although it has
been done.



>It would be cool if there was a collection of "setups" already posted
>somewhere.

I have been documenting my current marine set up from scratch, it can be
found at www.marksfish.me.uk. It may give you some pointers and help you to
avoid some of the common pitfalls.

HTH

Mark

[Paule]

Marksfish wrote:

> I have been documenting my current marine set up from scratch, it can be
> found at www.marksfish.me.uk. It may give you some pointers and help you to
> avoid some of the common pitfalls.


Ok all,
This is great ...and very helpful. So far I could add more Live Rock
(expensive), a Bubble Anemone/Clownfish Pair, a couple Long Spine Sea
Urchins, a Sand Sifting Starfish, some Brain Coral and a Goby to live
somewhat peacefully with my Tang, Damsels, Shrimp, Snails & Hermit
Crabs.

This could be a nice, reasonable strategy for the next several
months...costing about $500-$600 USD.

Any other creatures worth investigating?

[Marksfish]

> Any other creatures worth investigating?
>
Don't forget your clean up crew!! Brittle star, hermits, turbo snails,
nassaurius snails, ceriths. All keep the sand turned and detritus consumed.
Many of the soft corals and polyps are just as colourful as the hard corals,
and easier to keep too!

Pulsing xenia
Colt coral
Pussy coral
Yellow polyps
Mushroom polyps
Furry mushrooms

Many more too!!

Mark