Stars and Clowns and Anemones, Oh My.

[[email protected]]

Hey all,

I'm having a nice relaxing morning watching the fish swim and the
anemones sway in the "breeze". Then I noticed Chip the Chocolate Chip
Star creeping up over the back of the rock sneaking up on my anemones.
I had my sleeve rolled up to take corrective action but was waiting to
see if he would actually make the move on them. I saw one arm snake out
over the top. Then another. Out of nowhere the Perc. clown ( I haven't
named her yet but it won't be Nemo.) charges Chip and starts nipping at
the end of his arm. That put an end to his attempt at a quick lunch. He
is now wandering around the tank looking for another meal. Now where
did I put that frozen whiting fish ....

Sorry. I just had to share. I love watching the tank and how everything
interacts. Now that my clowns have started to use the anemones as hosts
the loss to Chips hunger may subside and I'll have them for longer than
6 months. I was just about ready to trade Chip in for store credit. Now
I'll have to keep and eye on him to see if this pattern holds true with
the clowns protecting their home.

Has anyone heard of stars eating anemones before? I know they are
opportunists. Both of my primary reef LFS said that Chip would be find
in my tank. Nevermind. I just researched this at
http://www.thatpetplace.com/LiveFish/Products/KW/FFish%2bSFish%2cchocolate%2cchip/Class//T1/L93OX+0045+0125/Detail.aspx
and noticed he is not a reef safe additive. Time to trade Chip in on
another banded serpent. Oh well. Another trip to the LFS. I wonder what
else will come home with me ...

I have a couple questions about corals but I'll raise those in a
different thread.

Greg

[Wayne Sallee]

Get a brittle, not a serpent.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



wrote on 12/21/2006 1:18 PM:
> Hey all,
>
> I'm having a nice relaxing morning watching the fish swim and the
> anemones sway in the "breeze". Then I noticed Chip the Chocolate Chip
> Star creeping up over the back of the rock sneaking up on my anemones.
> I had my sleeve rolled up to take corrective action but was waiting to
> see if he would actually make the move on them. I saw one arm snake out
> over the top. Then another. Out of nowhere the Perc. clown ( I haven't
> named her yet but it won't be Nemo.) charges Chip and starts nipping at
> the end of his arm. That put an end to his attempt at a quick lunch. He
> is now wandering around the tank looking for another meal. Now where
> did I put that frozen whiting fish ....
>
> Sorry. I just had to share. I love watching the tank and how everything
> interacts. Now that my clowns have started to use the anemones as hosts
> the loss to Chips hunger may subside and I'll have them for longer than
> 6 months. I was just about ready to trade Chip in for store credit. Now
> I'll have to keep and eye on him to see if this pattern holds true with
> the clowns protecting their home.
>
> Has anyone heard of stars eating anemones before? I know they are
> opportunists. Both of my primary reef LFS said that Chip would be find
> in my tank. Nevermind. I just researched this at
> http://www.thatpetplace.com/LiveFish/Products/KW/FFish%2bSFish%2cchocolate%2cchip/Class//T1/L93OX+0045+0125/Detail.aspx
> and noticed he is not a reef safe additive. Time to trade Chip in on
> another banded serpent. Oh well. Another trip to the LFS. I wonder what
> else will come home with me ...
>
> I have a couple questions about corals but I'll raise those in a
> different thread.
>
> Greg
>

[Pszemol]

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message ink.net...
> Get a brittle, not a serpent.

All brittle start I have met in the trade are very sensitive
to light and find a spot where it is the darkest...
I have one black brittle star which ventured into the
wall of the AllGlass overflow in my tank - I am unable
to take it out of there... nor I am able to see it on the display.

Nice red ones are here: http://www.sealifeinc.com/

[Wayne Sallee]

But as they grow big, they stick their arms out in all
directions, and the arms can be seen crawling up the sides
of the tank.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Pszemol wrote on 12/21/2006 2:30 PM:
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>> Get a brittle, not a serpent.
>
> All brittle start I have met in the trade are very sensitive
> to light and find a spot where it is the darkest...
> I have one black brittle star which ventured into the
> wall of the AllGlass overflow in my tank - I am unable
> to take it out of there... nor I am able to see it on the display.
>
> Nice red ones are here: http://www.sealifeinc.com/

[KurtG]

wrote:
> Has anyone heard of stars eating anemones before? I know they are
> opportunists. Both of my primary reef LFS said that Chip would be find
> in my tank. Nevermind.

Yes, they're not reef safe. You can get away with it if you feed them
frequently, but my coral disappeared over night. As soon as the star
fish reveals himself, he's getting moved to the "aggressive" tank (or
the start of one).

I also have a small chip. Oddly, he hides in a cave all the time. I
haven't figure him out.

--Kurt

[George]

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Get a brittle, not a serpent.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>

Brittle stars will eat anenomes as well. At least my green one does,
especially if they aren't doing too well.

George

[Pszemol]

"George" > wrote in message ...
> Brittle stars will eat anenomes as well. At least my green
> one does, especially if they aren't doing too well.

Well, that is the main purpose of "cleaning crew"
animals to eat dead and dying tank mates.

[George]

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "George" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Brittle stars will eat anenomes as well. At least my green
>> one does, especially if they aren't doing too well.
>
> Well, that is the main purpose of "cleaning crew"
> animals to eat dead and dying tank mates.

True, although mine has also sank it's 'teeth' right into quite healthy
ones as well. I wouldn't exactly call a 15 year old 20" (from armtip to
armtip) green brittle star typical of the type of cleaning crew that most
want to keep in their reef tanks. Which is why I don't keep it in the main
tank anymore. But that's just my own experience talking.

George

[Pszemol]

"George" > wrote in message ...
> True, although mine has also sank it's 'teeth' right into quite healthy
> ones as well. I wouldn't exactly call a 15 year old 20" (from armtip to
> armtip) green brittle star typical of the type of cleaning crew that most
> want to keep in their reef tanks. Which is why I don't keep it in the main
> tank anymore. But that's just my own experience talking.

Yes, I have heard reports about the green ones being "bad guys".
Too large for an average aquarium.

[Wayne Sallee]

There is a green star fish that is often called a brittle
star, and sometimes called a serpent star. It's nature is
like half way between the two. In some ways it's not as
bad as a serpent star, but it is not as good as a brittle
star.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



George wrote on 12/21/2006 5:18 PM:
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>> Get a brittle, not a serpent.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>> Wayne's Pets
>>
>
> Brittle stars will eat anenomes as well. At least my green one does,
> especially if they aren't doing too well.
>
> George
>
>

[[email protected]]

I've always heard the green serpent stars are NOT reef safe. I have a
brown brittle star that has been absolutely fine with my anemones. He
is at least 10 inches across. I've had him for at least 6 months. He
tends to hide most of the time and comes out at feeding times. After
Chip made a play for the anemones he moved on to try to eat the brown
star. Its interesting watching the brittle star "run" around the tank.

I did a quick search for the match to my brown brittle before the
previous post and couldn't find any reference to anything other than
the green serpent star. That is why I posted I was going to head for
the LFS and get a serpent star. When I make the trip Friday I'm going
to try for another brown brittle star. At one time I had about 100
little baby stars crawling in and out of all the cracks in the rocks.
They were awesome to watch. Then I brought home a Green Emperor Goby
and 3 Yellow Tangs. The stars quickly disappeared. I still find a few
hiding in my Fluval canister at cleaning times.

BTW - I would post more scientific names if I new them. I really need
to figure out all I have and keep track of it so I can accurately
describe any issues when they arise.

Wayne Sallee wrote:
> There is a green star fish that is often called a brittle
> star, and sometimes called a serpent star. It's nature is
> like half way between the two. In some ways it's not as
> bad as a serpent star, but it is not as good as a brittle
> star.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> George wrote on 12/21/2006 5:18 PM:
> > "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> >> Get a brittle, not a serpent.
> >>
> >> Wayne Sallee
> >> Wayne's Pets
> >>
> >
> > Brittle stars will eat anemones as well. At least my green one does,
> > especially if they aren't doing too well.
> >
> > George
> >
> >

[George]

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> There is a green star fish that is often called a brittle star, and
> sometimes called a serpent star. It's nature is like half way between the
> two. In some ways it's not as bad as a serpent star, but it is not as
> good as a brittle star.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>

Here is what my brittle star looks like (what you can see of it - note:
This image is several years old, so it is now larger than it was in this
image).

http://tinyurl.com/y9f5cq

George

[Blackheart]

wrote:

> in my tank. Nevermind. I just researched this at
> http://www.thatpetplace.com/LiveFish/Products/KW/FFish%2bSFish%2cchocolate%2cchip/Class//T1/L93OX+0045+0125/Detail.aspx
> and noticed he is not a reef safe additive. Time to trade Chip in on
> another banded serpent. Oh well. Another trip to the LFS. I wonder what
> else will come home with me ...

I've found during my own research that pretty much any starfish that
has any kind of "knob" on it, is not reef safe. Distant relationship to
those Crown of Thorns monstrosities that are giving the Australians
fits at the Great Barrier Reef?

and any of the serpent stars will hunt fish when they get big.

[Wayne Sallee]

Yep, that's the creature.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



George wrote on 12/21/2006 10:55 PM:
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>> There is a green star fish that is often called a brittle star, and
>> sometimes called a serpent star. It's nature is like half way between the
>> two. In some ways it's not as bad as a serpent star, but it is not as
>> good as a brittle star.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>> Wayne's Pets
>>
>
> Here is what my brittle star looks like (what you can see of it - note:
> This image is several years old, so it is now larger than it was in this
> image).
>
> http://tinyurl.com/y9f5cq
>
> George
>
>

[KurtG]

Wayne Sallee wrote:
> Yep, that's the creature.

Hm, I have a 12" version of this critter that came with the tank. I
knew it was a brittle star, but I couldn't nail down the exact type. I
feed it a chunk of shrimp now and then.

I also have two missing yellow tail damsils. Not that i care about
them, but I'm thinking this guy is the culprit as they liked to hide and
sleep in the crevices. Seems like I've been removing lots of animals
lately.

--Kurt

[Wayne Sallee]

Yea, sometimes they are called brittle stars, and some
times they are call serpent. They are like half way
between. They are a risk to a reef tank.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



KurtG wrote on 12/22/2006 5:18 PM:
> Wayne Sallee wrote:
>> Yep, that's the creature.
>
> Hm, I have a 12" version of this critter that came with the tank. I
> knew it was a brittle star, but I couldn't nail down the exact type. I
> feed it a chunk of shrimp now and then.
>
> I also have two missing yellow tail damsils. Not that i care about
> them, but I'm thinking this guy is the culprit as they liked to hide and
> sleep in the crevices. Seems like I've been removing lots of animals
> lately.
>
> --Kurt

[George]

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Yea, sometimes they are called brittle stars, and some times they are
> call serpent. They are like half way between. They are a risk to a reef
> tank.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>

Umm, Wayne. That IS a green brittle star. It is Ophiarachna incrassata.
It is not a true starfish. Starfish are in the class Asteroidea. Brittle
stars are in the class Ophiuroidea. Yes, large ones are a risk to
dedicated reef tanks, and can gobble up one's favorite fish (or shrimp,
certain corals, and even large anemones). Those who do keep them in such
tanks would be advised to keep them well fed. They relish bits of shrimp.
They move around quite rapidly when they want to, and are one of the few
types of echinoderms that have multiple lenses for light gathering (some
say that they can actually see images, but I have no proof one way or the
other with this claim).

Having said that, my tank is not a full-blown reef tank. It contains
mostly live rock and sea sand, with a few hardy corals that came with the
rock, a colony of star polyps, one leather coral, a few extraneous small
anemones, and assorted cleaner crews, including snails, limpets, small
hermit crabs, and assorted small crustaceans and feather worms (I've also
seen some glass sponges browing in my refugium). I also have two breeding
maroon clownfish that get along with the brittle star just fine. I've had
the female since 1991. I've had the brittle star since 1994. Anything
that it can/will eat it has already done so. It has definitely been one of
the more interesting animals I've ever kept. And I've been surprised at
how hardy it is. They are being intensely studied because of their very
strong immune system and incredible ability to regenerate their body parts.
The lenses of their "eyes" are also being studied by the telecom industry
because these calcite lenses apparently have properties that make them a
good candidate for use with fiber optic systems (if they can figure out how
to mass synthesize them in high quality).

George

[Wayne Sallee]

There is a difference between the "green brittle", and
what we all call a brittle star.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



George wrote on 12/22/2006 10:11 PM:
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>> Yea, sometimes they are called brittle stars, and some times they are
>> call serpent. They are like half way between. They are a risk to a reef
>> tank.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>> Wayne's Pets
>>
>>
>
> Umm, Wayne. That IS a green brittle star. It is Ophiarachna incrassata.
> It is not a true starfish. Starfish are in the class Asteroidea. Brittle
> stars are in the class Ophiuroidea. Yes, large ones are a risk to
> dedicated reef tanks, and can gobble up one's favorite fish (or shrimp,
> certain corals, and even large anemones). Those who do keep them in such
> tanks would be advised to keep them well fed. They relish bits of shrimp.
> They move around quite rapidly when they want to, and are one of the few
> types of echinoderms that have multiple lenses for light gathering (some
> say that they can actually see images, but I have no proof one way or the
> other with this claim).
>
> Having said that, my tank is not a full-blown reef tank. It contains
> mostly live rock and sea sand, with a few hardy corals that came with the
> rock, a colony of star polyps, one leather coral, a few extraneous small
> anemones, and assorted cleaner crews, including snails, limpets, small
> hermit crabs, and assorted small crustaceans and feather worms (I've also
> seen some glass sponges browing in my refugium). I also have two breeding
> maroon clownfish that get along with the brittle star just fine. I've had
> the female since 1991. I've had the brittle star since 1994. Anything
> that it can/will eat it has already done so. It has definitely been one of
> the more interesting animals I've ever kept. And I've been surprised at
> how hardy it is. They are being intensely studied because of their very
> strong immune system and incredible ability to regenerate their body parts.
> The lenses of their "eyes" are also being studied by the telecom industry
> because these calcite lenses apparently have properties that make them a
> good candidate for use with fiber optic systems (if they can figure out how
> to mass synthesize them in high quality).
>
> George
>
>

[George]

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> There is a difference between the "green brittle", and what we all call a
> brittle star.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>

And that would be? Come on. Out with it, already. :-)

George

[Wayne Sallee]

One is behavior that we were discussing, but also look a
the visible difference. A serpent star is smooth, and a
brittle star has lot's of appendages, and a "green
brittle/serpent" is smooth with *some* appendages, but not
nearly as much as a brittle star.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



George wrote on 12/23/2006 4:36 PM:
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>> There is a difference between the "green brittle", and what we all call a
>> brittle star.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>> Wayne's Pets
>>
>
> And that would be? Come on. Out with it, already. :-)
>
> George
>
>

[Wayne Sallee]

Also a brittle star has a better ability to carry pieces
of food to it's mouth with it's arms via conveyor-line
like method.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Wayne Sallee wrote on 12/23/2006 4:43 PM:
> One is behavior that we were discussing, but also look a the visible
> difference. A serpent star is smooth, and a brittle star has lot's of
> appendages, and a "green brittle/serpent" is smooth with *some*
> appendages, but not nearly as much as a brittle star.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> George wrote on 12/23/2006 4:36 PM:
>> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>> nk.net...
>>> There is a difference between the "green brittle", and what we all
>>> call a brittle star.
>>>
>>> Wayne Sallee
>>> Wayne's Pets
>>>
>>
>> And that would be? Come on. Out with it, already. :-)
>>
>> George
>>

[George]

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> One is behavior that we were discussing, but also look a the visible
> difference. A serpent star is smooth, and a brittle star has lot's of
> appendages, and a "green brittle/serpent" is smooth with *some*
> appendages, but not nearly as much as a brittle star.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>

Yes, serpent stars have smooth vertebrae while those of brittle stars are
spiney. So what? They are all in the same family, the difference being at
the level of genera. They are all still brittle stars.

George

> George wrote on 12/23/2006 4:36 PM:
>> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>> nk.net...
>>> There is a difference between the "green brittle", and what we all call
>>> a brittle star.
>>>
>>> Wayne Sallee
>>> Wayne's Pets
>>>
>>
>> And that would be? Come on. Out with it, already. :-)
>>
>> George

[George]

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Also a brittle star has a better ability to carry pieces of food to it's
> mouth with it's arms via conveyor-line like method.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>

Yes, this and the other differences you mention do distinguish one genera
from another. They are still brittle stars.

George

>
> Wayne Sallee wrote on 12/23/2006 4:43 PM:
>> One is behavior that we were discussing, but also look a the visible
>> difference. A serpent star is smooth, and a brittle star has lot's of
>> appendages, and a "green brittle/serpent" is smooth with *some*
>> appendages, but not nearly as much as a brittle star.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>> Wayne's Pets
>>
>>
>>
>> George wrote on 12/23/2006 4:36 PM:
>>> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>>> nk.net...
>>>> There is a difference between the "green brittle", and what we all
>>>> call a brittle star.
>>>>
>>>> Wayne Sallee
>>>> Wayne's Pets
>>>>
>>>
>>> And that would be? Come on. Out with it, already. :-)
>>>
>>> George
>>>

[Wayne Sallee]

And why and how do you think things are classified? Were
the creatures created for the classification, or were the
classifications created for the creatures?

Should we say "It's already been classified, no sense
reclassifying it"?

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



George wrote on 12/23/2006 7:48 PM:
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>> Also a brittle star has a better ability to carry pieces of food to it's
>> mouth with it's arms via conveyor-line like method.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>> Wayne's Pets
>>
>
> Yes, this and the other differences you mention do distinguish one genera
> from another. They are still brittle stars.
>
> George
>
>> Wayne Sallee wrote on 12/23/2006 4:43 PM:
>>> One is behavior that we were discussing, but also look a the visible
>>> difference. A serpent star is smooth, and a brittle star has lot's of
>>> appendages, and a "green brittle/serpent" is smooth with *some*
>>> appendages, but not nearly as much as a brittle star.
>>>
>>> Wayne Sallee
>>> Wayne's Pets
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> George wrote on 12/23/2006 4:36 PM:
>>>> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>>>> nk.net...
>>>>> There is a difference between the "green brittle", and what we all
>>>>> call a brittle star.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wayne Sallee
>>>>> Wayne's Pets
>>>>>
>>>> And that would be? Come on. Out with it, already. :-)
>>>>
>>>> George
>>>>
>
>

[George]

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> And why and how do you think things are classified? Were the creatures
> created for the classification, or were the classifications created for
> the creatures?
>
> Should we say "It's already been classified, no sense reclassifying it"?
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>

The point, Wayne, is that britte stars are considered to be in the class
Ophiuroidea, while starfish are in the class Asteroidea. They are
different classes of echinoderms that likely shared a common ancestry in
the Ordovician. As such, declaring a brittle star and/or a serpent star to
be a type of starfish is like declaring an echinoid to be a sea cucumber,
which, of course, is absurd. Even worse, brittle stars and serpent stars
are in the exact same class. They are simply different genera (akin to the
difference between a chimpanzee and an Orangutan). That said, you are, of
course, free to classify them any way you choose. However, good luck
getting your new classification past peer review.

George

[Wayne Sallee]

George wrote on 12/24/2006 3:48 AM:
> However, good luck
> getting your new classification past peer review.
>
> George
>
>

Peer review would be this newsgroup:-)
And scientist are reclassifying stuff all the time :-)
And scientists were not the first people to classify :-)

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

[Teri G.]

This has been my experience as well. We have two brown/black brittles that
have traversed a couple tank changes with us, and now reside in our 180g
reef. I last measured the largest one about 2 years ago, and it was about
15" from the tip of one leg to the tip of the opposite - no exaggeration.

We've had them both for +/- 7 years, and they have never displayed any
aggression to any tank make, fish, or mobile/sessile invert. Of course, they
do get a chunk of raw seafood from time to time. :-)

Olive green brittles do have a reputation for being somewhat more
aggressive. Note that the term "brittle" and "serpent" star is
interchangeable -- they are all 'Ophiroids". Here is a very good site that
describes these creatures well:

http://home.att.net/~ophiuroid/html/what.html

Chocolate chip starfish (Protoreaster nodosus) are not considered reef
safe - in that they are opportunistic carnivores - they will eat most
anything that can't escape them, including corals,sponges (and probably
anenomes).

~T
http://home.comcast.net/~76fxe


> wrote in message
ups.com...

> I've always heard the green serpent stars are NOT reef safe. I have a
> brown brittle star that has been absolutely fine with my anemones. He
> is at least 10 inches across. I've had him for at least 6 months. He
> tends to hide most of the time and comes out at feeding times. After
> Chip made a play for the anemones he moved on to try to eat the brown
> star. Its interesting watching the brittle star "run" around the tank.
>
> I did a quick search for the match to my brown brittle before the
> previous post and couldn't find any reference to anything other than
> the green serpent star. That is why I posted I was going to head for
> the LFS and get a serpent star. When I make the trip Friday I'm going
> to try for another brown brittle star. At one time I had about 100
> little baby stars crawling in and out of all the cracks in the rocks.
> They were awesome to watch. Then I brought home a Green Emperor Goby
> and 3 Yellow Tangs. The stars quickly disappeared. I still find a few
> hiding in my Fluval canister at cleaning times.
>
> BTW - I would post more scientific names if I new them. I really need
> to figure out all I have and keep track of it so I can accurately
> describe any issues when they arise.
>
> Wayne Sallee wrote:
>> There is a green star fish that is often called a brittle
>> star, and sometimes called a serpent star. It's nature is
>> like half way between the two. In some ways it's not as
>> bad as a serpent star, but it is not as good as a brittle
>> star.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>> Wayne's Pets
>>
>>
>>
>> George wrote on 12/21/2006 5:18 PM:
>> > "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>> > ink.net...
>> >> Get a brittle, not a serpent.
>> >>
>> >> Wayne Sallee
>> >> Wayne's Pets
>> >>
>> >
>> > Brittle stars will eat anemones as well. At least my green one does,
>> > especially if they aren't doing too well.
>> >
>> > George
>> >
>> >
>

[George]

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> George wrote on 12/24/2006 3:48 AM:
>> However, good luck getting your new classification past peer review.
>>
>> George
>
> Peer review would be this newsgroup:-)

Peer review? Of a generic reclassification? This newsgroup? Shirley you
jest.

> And scientist are reclassifying stuff all the time :-)

Not at that level, not all the time. Not with these critters. They are
too well known. It would take an extraordinary paper to do it.

> And scientists were not the first people to classify :-)

Farmer Bob doesn't count.

George