Marine Itch

[KurtG]

My tang has been itching itself for weeks/months, and often allows the
4-stripe damsels to "chew" on him. However, he's a nut case anyway, so
I didn't worry about it (maybe a newbie error). Now my Coral Beauty has
some bright white dots on it, and it's starting to itch as well.

Could this be marine itch? Should I isolate these two and treat with
Copper Sulfate? I read that pygmy angles don't handle Copper sulfate
very well.

--Kurt

[Wayne Sallee]

Check for ammonia, nitrite, and any other stress factors
that would cause them to get it.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



KurtG wrote on 12/23/2006 5:28 PM:
>
> My tang has been itching itself for weeks/months, and often allows the
> 4-stripe damsels to "chew" on him. However, he's a nut case anyway, so
> I didn't worry about it (maybe a newbie error). Now my Coral Beauty has
> some bright white dots on it, and it's starting to itch as well.
>
> Could this be marine itch? Should I isolate these two and treat with
> Copper Sulfate? I read that pygmy angles don't handle Copper sulfate
> very well.
>
> --Kurt
>
>

[George Patterson]

KurtG wrote:
>
> My tang has been itching itself for weeks/months, and often allows the
> 4-stripe damsels to "chew" on him. However, he's a nut case anyway, so
> I didn't worry about it (maybe a newbie error). Now my Coral Beauty has
> some bright white dots on it, and it's starting to itch as well.
>
> Could this be marine itch?

Sounds like ich (oodinimum). Has the tang been going through a cycle of this?
That is, does the tang exhibit symptoms for about a week and then have no
symptoms for about a week? And when the tang has no symptoms, do there seem to
be a bunch of very tiny white dots doing loops in the water?

If so, that's what you have.

Take *all* the fish out and transfer them to a hospital tank. Treat them there
with copper (I prefer "CopperSafe") and keep them there for 4 weeks to allow the
parasites in the main tank to die.

George Patterson
Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

[Wayne Sallee]

Also here is some good reading about ich pronounced "ick".

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22AQUARIUM+FISH+by+TERRY+BARTELME%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&filter=0

This is a 5 part series. You will want to open all 5 pages.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Wayne Sallee wrote on 12/23/2006 5:35 PM:
> Check for ammonia, nitrite, and any other stress factors that would
> cause them to get it.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> KurtG wrote on 12/23/2006 5:28 PM:
>>
>> My tang has been itching itself for weeks/months, and often allows the
>> 4-stripe damsels to "chew" on him. However, he's a nut case anyway,
>> so I didn't worry about it (maybe a newbie error). Now my Coral
>> Beauty has some bright white dots on it, and it's starting to itch as
>> well.
>>
>> Could this be marine itch? Should I isolate these two and treat with
>> Copper Sulfate? I read that pygmy angles don't handle Copper sulfate
>> very well.
>>
>> --Kurt
>>
>>

[TheRock]

Before you transfer your fish to another tank, take everything out so you
can catch them......
Or you can just medicate the water with Kent Rx P Parasite Treatment or
Mardel Fresh & Salt Water Maracide or Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Erythromycin.

What fish do you have again ?


"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:bGnjh.460$Ej7.258@trnddc02...
> KurtG wrote:
>>
>> My tang has been itching itself for weeks/months, and often allows the
>> 4-stripe damsels to "chew" on him. However, he's a nut case anyway, so I
>> didn't worry about it (maybe a newbie error). Now my Coral Beauty has
>> some bright white dots on it, and it's starting to itch as well.
>>
>> Could this be marine itch?
>
> Sounds like ich (oodinimum). Has the tang been going through a cycle of
> this? That is, does the tang exhibit symptoms for about a week and then
> have no symptoms for about a week? And when the tang has no symptoms, do
> there seem to be a bunch of very tiny white dots doing loops in the water?
>
> If so, that's what you have.
>
> Take *all* the fish out and transfer them to a hospital tank. Treat them
> there with copper (I prefer "CopperSafe") and keep them there for 4 weeks
> to allow the parasites in the main tank to die.
>
> George Patterson
> Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

[KurtG]

George Patterson wrote:
> Take *all* the fish out and transfer them to a hospital tank. Treat them
> there with copper (I prefer "CopperSafe") and keep them there for 4
> weeks to allow the parasites in the main tank to die.

Ack! It's funny as I just read about the value of a quarantine tank
about a week ago, and now that's been hit home. But, I probably picked
it up on the tang the first week that I had my tank and still a very
green newbie.

--Kurt

[KurtG]

TheRock wrote:
> What fish do you have again ?

1 maroon clownfish
1 picula clownfish
3 blue damsels
1 mandarin
2 4 stripe damsels
1 coral beauty
1 6" yellow tang.

[KurtG]

George Patterson wrote:
> Sounds like ich (oodinimum). Has the tang been going through a cycle of
> this? That is, does the tang exhibit symptoms for about a week and then
> have no symptoms for about a week? And when the tang has no symptoms, do
> there seem to be a bunch of very tiny white dots doing loops in the water?

Maybe. Tang does seem to go through periods when he itches furiously,
but then he doesn't seem to for awhile. Just when I think I should do
something, he seems to get better.

I only see the tiny white dots on the coral beauty. I've looked at the
yellow tang, but maybe it's obscured by the bright color because I can't
seem them.

As for the water and tiny dots, it appears so. I don't have a good
mechanical filter yet, so it's hard to say.

--Kurt

[KurtG]

KurtG wrote:
> TheRock wrote:
>> What fish do you have again ?
>
> 1 maroon clownfish
> 1 picula clownfish
> 3 blue damsels
> 1 mandarin
> 2 4 stripe damsels
> 1 coral beauty
> 1 6" yellow tang.

Also, a blue fin damsel. He's in the quarantine tank, but I might as
well treat them all at once.

[KurtG]

Wayne Sallee wrote:
> Also here is some good reading about ich pronounced "ick".
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22AQUARIUM+FISH+by+TERRY+BARTELME%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&filter=0

Thanks Wayne, I'll read through it.

--Kurt

[George Patterson]

TheRock wrote:

> Or you can just medicate the water with Kent Rx P Parasite Treatment or
> Mardel Fresh & Salt Water Maracide or Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Erythromycin.

I'm not familiar with the Kent stuff, but the other two are antibiotics. They
will do absolutely nothing to kill oodinium, which is a parasite, but they
*will* knock out all your nitrifying bacteria.

George Patterson
Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

[TheRock]

This may be true BUT they all "claim" to fight Ich.
The dream of the quarantine tank is NOT realistic.
How do you get the fish out of the tank with 200lbs of rock and corals in
your way.

You need to treat the entire tank. At least that has been my experience.

Antibiotics will kill all bacteria true, but not all.
He's got pretty hardy fish, I wouldn't worry too much about it.


"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:S5zjh.1207$4e.677@trnddc04...
> TheRock wrote:
>
>> Or you can just medicate the water with Kent Rx P Parasite Treatment or
>> Mardel Fresh & Salt Water Maracide or Aquarium Pharmaceuticals
>> Erythromycin.
>
> I'm not familiar with the Kent stuff, but the other two are antibiotics.
> They will do absolutely nothing to kill oodinium, which is a parasite, but
> they *will* knock out all your nitrifying bacteria.
>
> George Patterson
> Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

[RubenD]

I speak on my own experience, any similar events are pure coincedence
(disclaimer =).

When I got my Blue Tang, he got it ick very soon. I put the tank apart
just to catch him. I isolated him on a 10G with an ich reef safe medicine
(according to the LFS) and it was hard to see the stress he was going
throught. The eyes for just a little bigger but eventually he got better,
not completely but much better, wich make me feel sorry and put him back in
the tank.
Besides it make the silicon blue stained on my tank.

A few months later he got it again, very very bad to a point where he
scratched the skin out and you could see deep into the red flesh. At that
point I keep feeding him and decided to pull him out to end his suffering.
He didn't let me, kept hiding coming out only to eat. I gave up and two or
three weeks later he came out of his hiding showing all his skin back.

If you look at him now he's perfect, no scars at all.

My advice would be, feedings(frozen/good quality food), water changes and
patience. I read parasites are always present, it takes fish weakness to
be vulnerable. I wouldn't try any medication again, especially on the
whole tank.

I learned Blue tangs are very sensitive to ick, meaning they will get it
again on the next nervous crisis.

A celaner shrimp may help. Mine used to jump on top of the fish to clean
them, very cool, for some reaon I lost about 5 shrimps, no apparent
reason (I think there must be a guilty fish). I just got a coral banded and
it's still alive. I suspect he is not a nice treat with those claws.

If you find the source of stress then you find the cure, maybe the Damsel is
causing the stress...darn damsels, lol, they get so mean but they are so
cheap....=)

Good Luck,

Ruben


"KurtG" > wrote in message
...
>
> My tang has been itching itself for weeks/months, and often allows the
> 4-stripe damsels to "chew" on him. However, he's a nut case anyway, so
> I didn't worry about it (maybe a newbie error). Now my Coral Beauty has
> some bright white dots on it, and it's starting to itch as well.
>
> Could this be marine itch? Should I isolate these two and treat with
> Copper Sulfate? I read that pygmy angles don't handle Copper sulfate
> very well.
>
> --Kurt
>
>

[Kelsey Cummings]

RubenD wrote:
....
> My advice would be, feedings(frozen/good quality food), water changes and
> patience. I read parasites are always present, it takes fish weakness to
> be vulnerable. I wouldn't try any medication again, especially on the
> whole tank.

My newb thoughts exactly. I've had two minor bouts of ich both cleared
up with improved husbandry. ("Emergency" Water changes - turn over at
least 50% of the tank in a day or two.)

> A celaner shrimp may help. Mine used to jump on top of the fish to clean

The first time my tank got ich I ran out and got a cleaner. He got busy
quick and it's fun to watch him now. A great addition to a reef tank in
any case.

The other other thing I did was feed flake soaked in fresh mashed
garlic. I was surprised everyone ate it, but they did. The ich cleared
up in a few days but more importantly did not come back.

-K

[Blackheart]

KurtG wrote:
> My tang has been itching itself for weeks/months, and often allows the
> 4-stripe damsels to "chew" on him. However, he's a nut case anyway, so
> I didn't worry about it (maybe a newbie error). Now my Coral Beauty has
> some bright white dots on it, and it's starting to itch as well.
>
> Could this be marine itch? Should I isolate these two and treat with
> Copper Sulfate? I read that pygmy angles don't handle Copper sulfate
> very well.
>
> --Kurt

I would tend to think that it is.

Get your water in shape first, something is wrong that's allowing the
ich to take hold. (it will almost always be there in some form, whether
it has an outbreak is another thing).

I've used Ruby Reef's "Kick Ich" in the past and had success with it
treating the parasite. Also, I think a garlic additive and a good
nutritious food for the fish will help get them strong enough to fight
it off.

YMMV.

[George Patterson]

Blackheart wrote:
> (it will almost always be there in some form, whether
> it has an outbreak is another thing).

This is a prevalent idea which is total bull. Ick is a parasite. It has a 21 day
life cycle. After that it dies. If it cannot feed off a fish at some point in
that period, it dies earlier and does not lay eggs. If it can feed off a fish,
it lays eggs. These hatch after a few days; they do not have the capability of
lying dormant. When they hatch, they attach themselves to a fish, and the cycle
starts over.

If you have oodinium in your tank, your fish will periodically be parasitized;
that is, you *will* get outbreaks. If you don't have outbreaks, no ick is
present in any form.

George Patterson
Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

[Wayne Sallee]

There are obviously cycles where it can survive without
notice. I think more research needs to be done on this.
One method is attaching to the gills of fish.
But the reality is that if a fish is healthy with a good
immune system, it will not die, but will recover fine.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



George Patterson wrote on 12/26/2006 3:21 PM:
> Blackheart wrote:
>> (it will almost always be there in some form, whether
>> it has an outbreak is another thing).
>
> This is a prevalent idea which is total bull. Ick is a parasite. It has
> a 21 day life cycle. After that it dies. If it cannot feed off a fish at
> some point in that period, it dies earlier and does not lay eggs. If it
> can feed off a fish, it lays eggs. These hatch after a few days; they do
> not have the capability of lying dormant. When they hatch, they attach
> themselves to a fish, and the cycle starts over.
>
> If you have oodinium in your tank, your fish will periodically be
> parasitized; that is, you *will* get outbreaks. If you don't have
> outbreaks, no ick is present in any form.
>
> George Patterson
> Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

[George Patterson]

Wayne Sallee wrote:

> But the reality is that if a fish is healthy with a good immune system,
> it will not die, but will recover fine.

Sure. But then the next cycle, there are more parasites. This population
explosion eventually kills the fish.

George Patterson
Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

[Wayne Sallee]

Not if the fish has a good immune system.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



George Patterson wrote on 12/27/2006 11:01 AM:
> Wayne Sallee wrote:
>
>> But the reality is that if a fish is healthy with a good immune
>> system, it will not die, but will recover fine.
>
> Sure. But then the next cycle, there are more parasites. This population
> explosion eventually kills the fish.
>
> George Patterson
> Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

[George Patterson]

Wayne Sallee wrote:
> Not if the fish has a good immune system.

Ick is a parasite; not a disease. It doesn't matter how good the immune system
is when the fish can't get oxygen 'cause the gills are covered with bugs, or is
being bled to death by these little suckers.

George Patterson
Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

[Wayne Sallee]

The immune system helps the fish from getting the ich, and
helps it from getting as much, and helps it get rid of it,
and helps it rid off infection, witch copper hurts the
immune system, making fish more at risk from getting a
secondary infection from ich. Also producing more blood
cells is part of the immune system.


Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



George Patterson wrote on 12/29/2006 10:54 PM:
> Wayne Sallee wrote:
>> Not if the fish has a good immune system.
>
> Ick is a parasite; not a disease. It doesn't matter how good the immune
> system is when the fish can't get oxygen 'cause the gills are covered
> with bugs, or is being bled to death by these little suckers.
>
> George Patterson
> Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

[George Patterson]

Wayne Sallee wrote:
> The immune system helps the fish from getting the ich, and helps it from
> getting as much, and helps it get rid of it, ....

Just like a good immune system keeps you from picking up ticks in the woods and
makes them fall off faster? Dream on.

George Patterson
Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

[Wayne Sallee]

But that medicine works good for dogs :-) hehe
There are some people that mosquitoes won't bite.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



George Patterson wrote on 12/30/2006 10:04 PM:
> Wayne Sallee wrote:
>> The immune system helps the fish from getting the ich, and helps it
>> from getting as much, and helps it get rid of it, ....
>
> Just like a good immune system keeps you from picking up ticks in the
> woods and makes them fall off faster? Dream on.
>
> George Patterson
> Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

[TheRock]

<There are some people that mosquitoes won't bite>
Oh they bite them, they just don't have a reaction to them because of
a very high level of histamine in their body. My wife is one of those
people.

George, I can see this is a subject that is near and dear to your heart.

I will say one thing that I'm not convinced that a tank can be parasite
free.
The best of the best will admit that without inspecting ever inch of a
fishes
scales under a microscope you can't honestly say "parasite-free-tank"
therefore Ich lives on.

Get a few cleaner shrimp, a mated pair of Neon Gobies and use garlic
to keep the vampires away !

Chris

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> But that medicine works good for dogs :-) hehe
> There are some people that mosquitoes won't bite.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
>
> George Patterson wrote on 12/30/2006 10:04 PM:
>> Wayne Sallee wrote:
>>> The immune system helps the fish from getting the ich, and helps it from
>>> getting as much, and helps it get rid of it, ....
>>
>> Just like a good immune system keeps you from picking up ticks in the
>> woods and makes them fall off faster? Dream on.
>>
>> George Patterson
>> Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

[Add Homonym]

KurtG wrote:
>
> My tang has been itching itself for weeks/months, and often allows the
> 4-stripe damsels to "chew" on him. However, he's a nut case anyway, so
> I didn't worry about it (maybe a newbie error). Now my Coral Beauty has
> some bright white dots on it, and it's starting to itch as well.
>
> Could this be marine itch? Should I isolate these two and treat with
> Copper Sulfate? I read that pygmy angles don't handle Copper sulfate
> very well.
>
> --Kurt
>
>


Sound like cryptocarion irritans (er... or somethging like that is thge
latin name). Problemn is, the parasites are likley free swimming in yer
tank...

I would do a freshwater dip for the fish (take distelled or RO watter,
add buffer to ntach tank PH, het it to tank temp) - add some methylene
blue (never hurts, and helps keep oxygen in the dip) and formalin.

WATCH THGE FISH VERY CLOSELY when you dip them. Try to keep them in for
about 15 minutes, but take them out is they start thrashing or "laying
down".

This should make the white spots go away (possibly as fast as by the end
of the dip)

If the spots go away, then come back, you have an infested tank. You
need to take all fish out for about a month or two to starve the parasites.

[Add Homonym]

George Patterson wrote:

> Sounds like ich (oodinimum).

Or it could be crypto. I have seen the two misdiagonsed as eachother
many times.

OOdinium looks more like the fish has been dipped in powdered sugar, but
you still see some distinct spots. Crypto is more distinct white spots,
with amore raised appearance.

[Add Homonym]

TheRock wrote:
> Before you transfer your fish to another tank, take everything out so you
> can catch them......
> Or you can just medicate the water with Kent Rx P Parasite Treatment or
> Mardel Fresh & Salt Water Maracide or Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Erythromycin.
>
> What fish do you have again ?


emycin won't do squat for any type of ich, AND it will crash your
biological filtration to boot!

[Add Homonym]

George Patterson wrote:
> Wayne Sallee wrote:
>
>> The immune system helps the fish from getting the ich, and helps it
>> from getting as much, and helps it get rid of it, ....
>
>
> Just like a good immune system keeps you from picking up ticks in the
> woods and makes them fall off faster? Dream on.
>
> George Patterson
> Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

Actually, it CAN help a tick fall off faster.

[Add Homonym]

TheRock wrote:
> <There are some people that mosquitoes won't bite>
> Oh they bite them, they just don't have a reaction to them because of
> a very high level of histamine in their body. My wife is one of those
> people.
>

No, there ARE PLENTY people that mosqiuto's don't bite. Any person that
does not give off CO2 is someone mosquitos will not bite. Buddy of mine
works around folks that are like that all day. He works in the coorner's
office.

[TheRock]

"Add Homonym" > wrote in message
...
> TheRock wrote:
>> <There are some people that mosquitoes won't bite>
>> Oh they bite them, they just don't have a reaction to them because of
>> a very high level of histamine in their body. My wife is one of those
>> people.
>>
>
> No, there ARE PLENTY people that mosqiuto's don't bite. Any person that
> does not give off CO2 is someone mosquitos will not bite. Buddy of mine
> works around folks that are like that all day. He works in the coorner's
> office.

LOL !
I was saying this guys is fool of ####
until the punch line. Good one !