illness or just paranoia?

[Chris Palma]

Hi.

I have a 75 gallon moderately planted aquarium with 8 honey gouramis, 4
fancy guppies and some few week old fry, 10 threadfin rainbows, 4 otos (I
think), 9 pygmy cories (I think), 2 ember tetras, 4 d. maculatus pygmy
cichlids, and an assortment of snails.

I did another water change last weekend (20%) and a gravel vacuuming.
For the most part my fish all seem to be healthy, but I'm a little
paranoid that there might be something wrong and I can't decide if it is
just my imagination.

Here is what's going on:

All water parameters seem good: 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite, pH 7.2,
hardness has increased over what it was when I first stocked the tank --
from medium hard to the borderline of hard. When I did the water change,
I upped the amount of RO water in my mix to try to bring the hardness down
a bit. I haven't tested it, though, so I'm not sure where it is right
now.

I've had a few fish die over the past few months -- 3 pygmy cories, 1
otocinclus, and 1 honey gourami. The gourami was the only one to show any
kind of symptom, I chalked up the pygmy cories & the otocinclus to stress.
I moved the honey into a quarantine, and he died the next day -- I don't
think whatever caused his death was contagious.

Since then, though, I've noticed that the rest of my pygmy cories don't
ever seem to come out from wherever they are hiding. I used to see them
all the time foraging through the gravel for food. They would also
occasionally form a school of 4-5 (I have 9 left, I think) and swim a lap
or two around the tank. Also, when I was gravel vacuuming, I moved aside
a river stone that one of the cories was hiding under, and he did the
crazy swimming around in circles that you see when a fish is quite ill. I
couldn't decide if it was just because I scared him by moving his rock, or
if he was ill. I never found a dead cory, though, and when I do see a few
of them, they seem to be just hanging out peacefully. I only see 2 or 3
of them at a time, so I have no idea if I still have 9 left, or if some of
them are dead and I haven't found their remains. I've been looking for
any signs of dead fish and haven't found any.

Also, two of my otos are missing. I had just 1, and added 3 more. Since
then, I've only seen 2 of them, and the other 2 haven't been seen. I'm
hoping that they are just burrowed into the substrate somewhere, but I
can't find them.

Lastly -- I have four pygmy cichlids (d. maculatus). They are
territorial, and chase each other around during feeding time. Last night,
one chased another one away from some food, and the one that was chased
started swimming quickly and appearing to "scratch" himself on gravel,
rocks, plants, etc. I've heard that this behavior can mean a parasite,
but after that one isolated incident he seems fine. Since it happened
right after a chase, I was wondering if he was just reacting to something
the other cichlid did to him during the chase.

My other fish (threadfin rainbows, fancy guppies, ember tetras) all seem
perfectly fine and normal.

So, if anyone is still reading:

1) Should I be on the lookout for illness, or am I just worrying about
normal occurrences that don't signal any problems?

2) Any ideas what might be leading the cories to be less outgoing?

3) should I think about a preventative medication (aquari-sol?) or should
I not worry about it yet?

Any advice appreciated.

--chris





NB: This email address is dead. If you would like to email me directly,
please use: cpalmaATSYMBOLastro.psu.edu

[RedForeman ©®]

|| I have a 75 gallon moderately planted aquarium with 8 honey
|| gouramis, 4 fancy guppies and some few week old fry, 10 threadfin
|| rainbows, 4 otos (I think), 9 pygmy cories (I think), 2 ember
|| tetras, 4 d. maculatus pygmy cichlids, and an assortment of snails.
||
|| I did another water change last weekend (20%) and a gravel vacuuming.
|| For the most part my fish all seem to be healthy, but I'm a little
|| paranoid that there might be something wrong and I can't decide if
|| it is just my imagination.
||
|| Here is what's going on:
||
|| All water parameters seem good: 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite, pH 7.2,
|| hardness has increased over what it was when I first stocked the
|| tank -- from medium hard to the borderline of hard. When I did the
|| water change, I upped the amount of RO water in my mix to try to
|| bring the hardness down a bit. I haven't tested it, though, so I'm
|| not sure where it is right now.
||
|| I've had a few fish die over the past few months -- 3 pygmy cories, 1
|| otocinclus, and 1 honey gourami. The gourami was the only one to
|| show any kind of symptom, I chalked up the pygmy cories & the
|| otocinclus to stress. I moved the honey into a quarantine, and he
|| died the next day -- I don't think whatever caused his death was
|| contagious.
||
|| Since then, though, I've noticed that the rest of my pygmy cories
|| don't ever seem to come out from wherever they are hiding. I used
|| to see them all the time foraging through the gravel for food. They
|| would also occasionally form a school of 4-5 (I have 9 left, I
|| think) and swim a lap or two around the tank. Also, when I was
|| gravel vacuuming, I moved aside a river stone that one of the cories
|| was hiding under, and he did the crazy swimming around in circles
|| that you see when a fish is quite ill. I couldn't decide if it was
|| just because I scared him by moving his rock, or if he was ill. I
|| never found a dead cory, though, and when I do see a few of them,
|| they seem to be just hanging out peacefully. I only see 2 or 3 of
|| them at a time, so I have no idea if I still have 9 left, or if some
|| of them are dead and I haven't found their remains. I've been
|| looking for any signs of dead fish and haven't found any.
||
|| Also, two of my otos are missing. I had just 1, and added 3 more.
|| Since then, I've only seen 2 of them, and the other 2 haven't been
|| seen. I'm hoping that they are just burrowed into the substrate
|| somewhere, but I can't find them.
||
|| Lastly -- I have four pygmy cichlids (d. maculatus). They are
|| territorial, and chase each other around during feeding time. Last
|| night, one chased another one away from some food, and the one that
|| was chased started swimming quickly and appearing to "scratch"
|| himself on gravel, rocks, plants, etc. I've heard that this
|| behavior can mean a parasite, but after that one isolated incident
|| he seems fine. Since it happened right after a chase, I was
|| wondering if he was just reacting to something the other cichlid did
|| to him during the chase.
||
|| My other fish (threadfin rainbows, fancy guppies, ember tetras) all
|| seem perfectly fine and normal.
||
|| So, if anyone is still reading:
||
|| 1) Should I be on the lookout for illness, or am I just worrying
|| about normal occurrences that don't signal any problems?

I've had issues with cories, they seem fragile, especially pygmy cories,
which I can't keep alive.. If they are a recent addition, you could chalk
that up to newness...

|| 2) Any ideas what might be leading the cories to be less outgoing?

Change.. losing a friend could be significant to them.. OTOH, the death
could have cause a small pollutant to be release in the
tank... -->stress-->death...

|| 3) should I think about a preventative medication (aquari-sol?) or
|| should I not worry about it yet?

Every time I get paranoid, and add something, something dies... If I just
cross the fingers, maintain as usual, things tend to work out, even with a
few deaths... I lost 2 guppies this past week, that I bred, and I have to
chalk it up to old age, even if it is just 2 years... no signs, no illness,
ate good, looked good.. what else is there?

|| Any advice appreciated.
||
|| --chris

You've already done most of what could be done, a water change... Sorry
Chris... can't help much here...

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø


is that better??

[Chris Palma]

On Tue, 11 May 2004, RedForeman =A9=AE wrote:

> || Any advice appreciated.
> ||
> || --chris
>
> You've already done most of what could be done, a water change... Sorry
> Chris... can't help much here...
>

No problem -- I just wanted some confirmation that I'm not neglecting to
do something obvious. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Thanks.

[NetMax]

"Chris Palma" > wrote in message
...
> Hi.
>
> I have a 75 gallon moderately planted aquarium with 8 honey gouramis, 4
> fancy guppies and some few week old fry, 10 threadfin rainbows, 4 otos
(I
> think), 9 pygmy cories (I think), 2 ember tetras, 4 d. maculatus pygmy
> cichlids, and an assortment of snails.
>
> I did another water change last weekend (20%) and a gravel vacuuming.
> For the most part my fish all seem to be healthy, but I'm a little
> paranoid that there might be something wrong and I can't decide if it
is
> just my imagination.
>
> Here is what's going on:
>
> All water parameters seem good: 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite, pH 7.2,
> hardness has increased over what it was when I first stocked the
tank --
> from medium hard to the borderline of hard. When I did the water
change,
> I upped the amount of RO water in my mix to try to bring the hardness
down
> a bit. I haven't tested it, though, so I'm not sure where it is right
> now.
>
> I've had a few fish die over the past few months -- 3 pygmy cories, 1
> otocinclus, and 1 honey gourami. The gourami was the only one to show
any
> kind of symptom, I chalked up the pygmy cories & the otocinclus to
stress.
> I moved the honey into a quarantine, and he died the next day -- I
don't
> think whatever caused his death was contagious.
>
> Since then, though, I've noticed that the rest of my pygmy cories don't
> ever seem to come out from wherever they are hiding. I used to see
them
> all the time foraging through the gravel for food. They would also
> occasionally form a school of 4-5 (I have 9 left, I think) and swim a
lap
> or two around the tank. Also, when I was gravel vacuuming, I moved
aside
> a river stone that one of the cories was hiding under, and he did the
> crazy swimming around in circles that you see when a fish is quite ill.
I
> couldn't decide if it was just because I scared him by moving his rock,
or
> if he was ill. I never found a dead cory, though, and when I do see a
few
> of them, they seem to be just hanging out peacefully. I only see 2 or
3
> of them at a time, so I have no idea if I still have 9 left, or if some
of
> them are dead and I haven't found their remains. I've been looking for
> any signs of dead fish and haven't found any.
>
> Also, two of my otos are missing. I had just 1, and added 3 more.
Since
> then, I've only seen 2 of them, and the other 2 haven't been seen. I'm
> hoping that they are just burrowed into the substrate somewhere, but I
> can't find them.
>
> Lastly -- I have four pygmy cichlids (d. maculatus). They are
> territorial, and chase each other around during feeding time. Last
night,
> one chased another one away from some food, and the one that was chased
> started swimming quickly and appearing to "scratch" himself on gravel,
> rocks, plants, etc. I've heard that this behavior can mean a parasite,
> but after that one isolated incident he seems fine. Since it happened
> right after a chase, I was wondering if he was just reacting to
something
> the other cichlid did to him during the chase.
>
> My other fish (threadfin rainbows, fancy guppies, ember tetras) all
seem
> perfectly fine and normal.
>
> So, if anyone is still reading:
>
> 1) Should I be on the lookout for illness, or am I just worrying about
> normal occurrences that don't signal any problems?

I'd keep watching as it's a bit suspicious, but not unexplainable. Once
infant mortality is out of the way, your death rate should level off.

> 2) Any ideas what might be leading the cories to be less outgoing?

I often see Corys with shortened barbels from bacterial infections, and
even then they often remain active, but Pygmys don't spend quite as much
time digging in the substrate as most other Corys. There might be
something going on affecting the corys. Your Otos infant mortality
should be finished and they usually become rock solid normal after that.

> 3) should I think about a preventative medication (aquari-sol?) or
should
> I not worry about it yet?

That's really at your discretion. There is no harm in it (Aquarisol is
pretty weak stuff). I'd be tempted to get some medicated foods into the
Corys to see if it made a difference. Note that if the cichlids are
being much more gregarious, they could easily spook the Corys into
hiding.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Any advice appreciated.
>
> --chris

[Dick]

On Tue, 11 May 2004 15:07:23 -0400, "RedForeman ©®"
> wrote:

>|| I have a 75 gallon moderately planted aquarium with 8 honey
>|| gouramis, 4 fancy guppies and some few week old fry, 10 threadfin
>|| rainbows, 4 otos (I think), 9 pygmy cories (I think), 2 ember
>|| tetras, 4 d. maculatus pygmy cichlids, and an assortment of snails.
>||
>|| I did another water change last weekend (20%) and a gravel vacuuming.
>|| For the most part my fish all seem to be healthy, but I'm a little
>|| paranoid that there might be something wrong and I can't decide if
>|| it is just my imagination.

I may be misreading what you are doing, but the phrase "I did another
water change last weekend..." caught my eye. Your phrasing suggests
you did something special rather than normal procedure. Are you
changing 20% each week or when you feel like it? Some people make
much higher water changes such as 50% per week. If you are not making
regular changes that may be your problem. You could also try 20%
twice a week for awhile.

I have a total fish count of around 140 fish in 5 tanks. I rarely
have a fish die or get sick for that matter. Your death rate would
give me concern.

>||
>|| Here is what's going on:
>||
>|| All water parameters seem good: 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite, pH 7.2,
>|| hardness has increased over what it was when I first stocked the
>|| tank -- from medium hard to the borderline of hard. When I did the
>|| water change, I upped the amount of RO water in my mix to try to
>|| bring the hardness down a bit. I haven't tested it, though, so I'm
>|| not sure where it is right now.
>||
>|| I've had a few fish die over the past few months -- 3 pygmy cories, 1
>|| otocinclus, and 1 honey gourami. The gourami was the only one to
>|| show any kind of symptom, I chalked up the pygmy cories & the
>|| otocinclus to stress. I moved the honey into a quarantine, and he
>|| died the next day -- I don't think whatever caused his death was
>|| contagious.
>||
>|| Since then, though, I've noticed that the rest of my pygmy cories
>|| don't ever seem to come out from wherever they are hiding. I used
>|| to see them all the time foraging through the gravel for food. They
>|| would also occasionally form a school of 4-5 (I have 9 left, I
>|| think) and swim a lap or two around the tank. Also, when I was
>|| gravel vacuuming, I moved aside a river stone that one of the cories
>|| was hiding under, and he did the crazy swimming around in circles
>|| that you see when a fish is quite ill. I couldn't decide if it was
>|| just because I scared him by moving his rock, or if he was ill. I
>|| never found a dead cory, though, and when I do see a few of them,
>|| they seem to be just hanging out peacefully. I only see 2 or 3 of
>|| them at a time, so I have no idea if I still have 9 left, or if some
>|| of them are dead and I haven't found their remains. I've been
>|| looking for any signs of dead fish and haven't found any.
>||
>|| Also, two of my otos are missing. I had just 1, and added 3 more.
>|| Since then, I've only seen 2 of them, and the other 2 haven't been
>|| seen. I'm hoping that they are just burrowed into the substrate
>|| somewhere, but I can't find them.
>||
>|| Lastly -- I have four pygmy cichlids (d. maculatus). They are
>|| territorial, and chase each other around during feeding time. Last
>|| night, one chased another one away from some food, and the one that
>|| was chased started swimming quickly and appearing to "scratch"
>|| himself on gravel, rocks, plants, etc. I've heard that this
>|| behavior can mean a parasite, but after that one isolated incident
>|| he seems fine. Since it happened right after a chase, I was
>|| wondering if he was just reacting to something the other cichlid did
>|| to him during the chase.
>||
>|| My other fish (threadfin rainbows, fancy guppies, ember tetras) all
>|| seem perfectly fine and normal.
>||
>|| So, if anyone is still reading:
>||
>|| 1) Should I be on the lookout for illness, or am I just worrying
>|| about normal occurrences that don't signal any problems?
>
>I've had issues with cories, they seem fragile, especially pygmy cories,
>which I can't keep alive.. If they are a recent addition, you could chalk
>that up to newness...
>
>|| 2) Any ideas what might be leading the cories to be less outgoing?
>
>Change.. losing a friend could be significant to them.. OTOH, the death
>could have cause a small pollutant to be release in the
>tank... -->stress-->death...
>
>|| 3) should I think about a preventative medication (aquari-sol?) or
>|| should I not worry about it yet?
>
>Every time I get paranoid, and add something, something dies... If I just
>cross the fingers, maintain as usual, things tend to work out, even with a
>few deaths... I lost 2 guppies this past week, that I bred, and I have to
>chalk it up to old age, even if it is just 2 years... no signs, no illness,
>ate good, looked good.. what else is there?
>
>|| Any advice appreciated.
>||
>|| --chris
>
>You've already done most of what could be done, a water change... Sorry
>Chris... can't help much here...

[Chris Palma]

On Wed, 12 May 2004, Dick wrote:

(Actually, I'm the OP, not RedForeman)

> On Tue, 11 May 2004 15:07:23 -0400, "RedForeman =A9=AE"
> > wrote:
>
> >|| I have a 75 gallon moderately planted aquarium with 8 honey
> >|| gouramis, 4 fancy guppies and some few week old fry, 10 threadfin
> >|| rainbows, 4 otos (I think), 9 pygmy cories (I think), 2 ember
> >|| tetras, 4 d. maculatus pygmy cichlids, and an assortment of snails.
> >||
> >|| I did another water change last weekend (20%) and a gravel vacuuming.
> >|| For the most part my fish all seem to be healthy, but I'm a little
> >|| paranoid that there might be something wrong and I can't decide if
> >|| it is just my imagination.
>
> I may be misreading what you are doing, but the phrase "I did another
> water change last weekend..." caught my eye. Your phrasing suggests
> you did something special rather than normal procedure. Are you
> changing 20% each week or when you feel like it? Some people make
> much higher water changes such as 50% per week. If you are not making
> regular changes that may be your problem. You could also try 20%
> twice a week for awhile.
>
> I have a total fish count of around 140 fish in 5 tanks. I rarely
> have a fish die or get sick for that matter. Your death rate would
> give me concern.
>

I've only had this aquarium running for a few months. I think I added my
first fish in early March. I haven't settled on a routine just yet, but
I'm doing a gravel vacuum / 20% water change every 10-12 days. I phrased
it the way I did because I've only done about 4 water changes total so
far.

My fish deaths are definitely a concern, that's what motivated the post.
I would be more worried, but everything that I have read and been told is
that the three types of fish that I have lost (1 confirmed Oto, 3
confirmed Pygmy Cories, 1 honey gourami) are somewhat fragile, and have a
relatively high "infant mortality" rate. I have about 40 other fish in
the tank (not counting the guppy fry and snails that seem to be
multiplying like rabbits) and they seem to be thriving. My d. maculatus
dwarf cichlids have grown and taken on quite amazing colors.

I'm keeping a pretty close eye on water parameters and the fish, and I'm
prepared to do anything necessary to correct any problems.

--chris




NB: This email address is dead. If you would like to email me directly,
please use: cpalmaATSYMBOLastro.psu.edu

[Dick]

On Thu, 13 May 2004 00:17:47 -0400, Chris Palma
> wrote:

>
>
>
>On Wed, 12 May 2004, Dick wrote:
>
>(Actually, I'm the OP, not RedForeman)
>
>> On Tue, 11 May 2004 15:07:23 -0400, "RedForeman ©®"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >|| I have a 75 gallon moderately planted aquarium with 8 honey
>> >|| gouramis, 4 fancy guppies and some few week old fry, 10 threadfin
>> >|| rainbows, 4 otos (I think), 9 pygmy cories (I think), 2 ember
>> >|| tetras, 4 d. maculatus pygmy cichlids, and an assortment of snails.
>> >||
>> >|| I did another water change last weekend (20%) and a gravel vacuuming.
>> >|| For the most part my fish all seem to be healthy, but I'm a little
>> >|| paranoid that there might be something wrong and I can't decide if
>> >|| it is just my imagination.
>>
>> I may be misreading what you are doing, but the phrase "I did another
>> water change last weekend..." caught my eye. Your phrasing suggests
>> you did something special rather than normal procedure. Are you
>> changing 20% each week or when you feel like it? Some people make
>> much higher water changes such as 50% per week. If you are not making
>> regular changes that may be your problem. You could also try 20%
>> twice a week for awhile.
>>
>> I have a total fish count of around 140 fish in 5 tanks. I rarely
>> have a fish die or get sick for that matter. Your death rate would
>> give me concern.
>>
>
>I've only had this aquarium running for a few months. I think I added my
>first fish in early March. I haven't settled on a routine just yet, but
>I'm doing a gravel vacuum / 20% water change every 10-12 days. I phrased
>it the way I did because I've only done about 4 water changes total so
>far.
>
>My fish deaths are definitely a concern, that's what motivated the post.
>I would be more worried, but everything that I have read and been told is
>that the three types of fish that I have lost (1 confirmed Oto, 3
>confirmed Pygmy Cories, 1 honey gourami) are somewhat fragile, and have a
>relatively high "infant mortality" rate. I have about 40 other fish in
>the tank (not counting the guppy fry and snails that seem to be
>multiplying like rabbits) and they seem to be thriving. My d. maculatus
>dwarf cichlids have grown and taken on quite amazing colors.
>
>I'm keeping a pretty close eye on water parameters and the fish, and I'm
>prepared to do anything necessary to correct any problems.
>
>--chris
>
>
>
>
>NB: This email address is dead. If you would like to email me directly,
>please use: cpalmaATSYMBOLastro.psu.edu

I think it is important when diagnosing problems to keep in mind the
whole tank. A new tanks is different from an existing tank.
Something happening to a few fish and not happening to all is another
kind of problem. Young fish dying is not the same as old fish dying,
etc.

The first 6 months was one problem after another in my 75 gallon tank.
As I added the next 4 tanks things went better. Now, 18 months later
I don't have emergencies. But, I haven't added any new fish or plants
in the last year either.

I hope your tank reaches a healthy balance soon. Having fish die is
hard to not take personally, such as "What did I do wrong, what could
I do differently, etc.?" All we can do is try. Just bringing it to
this group is part of the effort.

[RedForeman ©®]

| I've only had this aquarium running for a few months. I think I
| added my first fish in early March. I haven't settled on a routine
| just yet, but I'm doing a gravel vacuum / 20% water change every
| 10-12 days. I phrased it the way I did because I've only done about
| 4 water changes total so far.

Chris, I'll be the first to admit, my first "educated" tank, didn't do too
great the first 18 months... had all kinds of weird deaths, bad mix of fish,
and overnight floaters.. Fine today, dead tomorrow... I think established,
balanced tanks do take time, and when you finally acheive that equilibrium,
then you'll have no, well, lets say less problems....

| My fish deaths are definitely a concern, that's what motivated the
| post. I would be more worried, but everything that I have read and
| been told is that the three types of fish that I have lost (1
| confirmed Oto, 3 confirmed Pygmy Cories, 1 honey gourami) are
| somewhat fragile, and have a relatively high "infant mortality" rate.
| I have about 40 other fish in the tank (not counting the guppy fry
| and snails that seem to be multiplying like rabbits) and they seem to
| be thriving. My d. maculatus dwarf cichlids have grown and taken on
| quite amazing colors.
|
| I'm keeping a pretty close eye on water parameters and the fish, and
| I'm prepared to do anything necessary to correct any problems.

you've come a long way... and you're coming right along...

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø


is that better??