Treating my betta's fin rot

[Mac Cool]

I followed directions from several websites:

1. Separated from the main tank
2. Changed water in the main tank and washed with hot water
3. Put betta in his old 1/2 gallon tank and other fish back into main
tank.
4. Put appropriate amounts of conditioning salt in both tanks (I wasn't
using salt before)
5. Treated both tanks with Jungle Fungus Clear. If he gets worse after a
day or two I'll move up to something stronger.

My betta has become listless, won't eat and just rests below the surface
of the water. He does react if I approach the tank but he's not feeling
well. Part of his fin is gone and a bit raggedy, he also has a white
circle on his side.

I don't have a heater in either tank but in winter they stay between 75-78
degrees, in the summer about 80-85 degrees.

How am I doing here? Missing anything?
--
Mac Cool

[Zebulon]

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
> My betta has become listless, won't eat and just rests below the surface
> of the water. He does react if I approach the tank but he's not feeling
> well. Part of his fin is gone and a bit raggedy, he also has a white
> circle on his side.
=====================
If he were my fish I' b be using Quick-Cure.

Is the white circle fuzzy or flat?
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Mac Cool]

Zëbulon:
>> My betta has become listless, won't eat and just rests below the
>> surface of the water. He does react if I approach the tank but he's
>> not feeling well. Part of his fin is gone and a bit raggedy, he also
>> has a white circle on his side.
> =====================
> If he were my fish I' b be using Quick-Cure.
>
> Is the white circle fuzzy or flat?

Flat as best I can tell, looks like a donut.

I didn't see Quick Cure at the pet store.

--
Mac Cool

[carlrs]

Mac Cool wrote:
> I followed directions from several websites:
>
> 1. Separated from the main tank
> 2. Changed water in the main tank and washed with hot water
> 3. Put betta in his old 1/2 gallon tank and other fish back into main
> tank.
> 4. Put appropriate amounts of conditioning salt in both tanks (I wasn't
> using salt before)
> 5. Treated both tanks with Jungle Fungus Clear. If he gets worse after a
> day or two I'll move up to something stronger.
>
> My betta has become listless, won't eat and just rests below the surface
> of the water. He does react if I approach the tank but he's not feeling
> well. Part of his fin is gone and a bit raggedy, he also has a white
> circle on his side.
>
> I don't have a heater in either tank but in winter they stay between 75-78
> degrees, in the summer about 80-85 degrees.
>
> How am I doing here? Missing anything?
> --
> Mac Cool

As I stated in your other thread I would start with a Methylene Blue
Bath.
A 30 minute double strength methylene blue bath is extremely effective
and can be
used in conjuntion with in tank treatments such as, Quick Cure or
Jungle Fungus
Eliminator (I have used both effectively)
Other "in tank treatments" to consider are Nitorfurazone, Triple Sulfa,

Pimafix, or Medicated Wonder Shells (which is a combo treatment with
some similar chemicals to Quick Cure or Fungus Eliminator with the
added benefit of electrolytes, calcium, and kH control)

For more medication info:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.html


Carl
Link to Wonder shells, Quick Cure:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquariumtreatments.html

[Mac Cool]

Thanks for the info but he died a while after my post.

--
Mac Cool

[Zebulon]

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
> Zëbulon:
>>> My betta has become listless, won't eat and just rests below the
>>> surface of the water. He does react if I approach the tank but he's
>>> not feeling well. Part of his fin is gone and a bit raggedy, he also
>>> has a white circle on his side.
>> =====================
>> If he were my fish I' b be using Quick-Cure.
>>
>> Is the white circle fuzzy or flat?
>
> Flat as best I can tell, looks like a donut.
>
> I didn't see Quick Cure at the pet store.
======================
Aquara-sol is my second choice.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Zebulon]

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for the info but he died a while after my post.
>
> --
> Mac Cool
================
I learned long a go to assume all fish are carrying parasites and treat
every one I buy while in their 21 day quarantine tank.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Tynk]

Mac Cool wrote:
> I followed directions from several websites:
>
> 1. Separated from the main tank
> 2. Changed water in the main tank and washed with hot water
> 3. Put betta in his old 1/2 gallon tank and other fish back into main
> tank.
> 4. Put appropriate amounts of conditioning salt in both tanks (I wasn't
> using salt before)
> 5. Treated both tanks with Jungle Fungus Clear. If he gets worse after a
> day or two I'll move up to something stronger.
>
> My betta has become listless, won't eat and just rests below the surface
> of the water. He does react if I approach the tank but he's not feeling
> well. Part of his fin is gone and a bit raggedy, he also has a white
> circle on his side.
>
> I don't have a heater in either tank but in winter they stay between 75-78
> degrees, in the summer about 80-85 degrees.
>
> How am I doing here? Missing anything?
> --
> Mac Cool

Hello Mac.
I understand your fish has already passed, but I wanted to make several
comments.

You said your fish had fin rot. You mentioned treating it with Jungle
brand's Fungus Clear. That's wrong med for fin rot, which is bacterial.
Jungle brand's Fungus Eliminator is the one that treats both true
fungus, and many bacterial infections...Fin rot being one of them...and
happens to be the med I recommend most for it. Many people make the
mistake of getting the Fungus Clear...but it's not the same medication
and will not work the same.
If Fin rot isn't treated properly, the fish can die quickly... as you
have seen.
Your tank's temp was a bit chilly for a Betta, especially one suffering
from Fin rot (an infection they are prone to get).
As for the other poster's comment about using Quick Cure for Fin
rot..nope. Wrong medication.
I love Quick Cure, but it's for parasites. Not bacterial infections.
It's actually one of 2 meds I keep on hand at all times, and Jungle's
Fungus Eliminator is the other.
I've been in the hobby most my life and specialize in both Bettas and
Angelfish, and after all these years, those are the only meds I keep on
hand out of the hundreds available.
As for the same poster's recommendation for Aquarisol....it's also for
parasites, but it's too weak. Usually the fish ends up dying from the
parasite before Aquarisol can kill it.
It's said to be used as a preventative, but I never recommend using
meds for no reason.
Most seasoned hobbyists will say the same. Never treat with medications
that you don't know about, don't know what you are treating for, and
for no reason. That's wise advice.
The white, flat patch sounded like a bacterial infection as well. Ich
would have looked like a grain of sugar, usually more than one spot and
isn't flat. A fungal attack would have looked like a cottony, white,
fuzzy patch that grows quickly. Think white mold growing on somthing
nasty that was forgotten about in the back of the frige. (Not that I am
admitting to doing that ever, lol). = )
I'm sorry for your loss, and if this ever happens with any of your
other fish, or in the future, you'll know how to treat it, and what to
use.
Keep a close eye on the other fish it was housed with. He got that
bacterial infection for a reason and until you figure out the *why*,
you may not be done with it.
Are you keeping up on regular water changes?
Were there any new fish added without quarantining them?

[Tynk]

Zëbulon wrote:
> "Mac Cool" > wrote in message
> ...
> > My betta has become listless, won't eat and just rests below the surface
> > of the water. He does react if I approach the tank but he's not feeling
> > well. Part of his fin is gone and a bit raggedy, he also has a white
> > circle on his side.
> =====================
> If he were my fish I' b be using Quick-Cure.
>
> Is the white circle fuzzy or flat?
> --
> ZB....

ZB....

Mac Cool posted about the Betta having Fin Rot.
Quick Cure is a parasite medication and not for bacterial infections.

[Tynk]

Zëbulon wrote:

> >>
> >> Is the white circle fuzzy or flat?
> >
> > Flat as best I can tell, looks like a donut.
> >
> > I didn't see Quick Cure at the pet store.
> ======================
> Aquara-sol is my second choice.
> --
> ZB....

ZB....
Aquarisol is also for parasites, not bacterial infections and is a
pretty weak medication.

[Zebulon]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...

Zëbulon wrote:

> >>
> >> Is the white circle fuzzy or flat?
> >
> > Flat as best I can tell, looks like a donut.
> >
> > I didn't see Quick Cure at the pet store.
> ======================
> Aquara-sol is my second choice.
> --
> ZB....

ZB....

Aquarisol is also for parasites, not bacterial infections and is a
pretty weak medication.
========================
Oh, did he say it was bacterial? I didn't see that message claiming it was
a bacterial infection.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Zebulon]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...

ZB....

Mac Cool posted about the Betta having Fin Rot.
Quick Cure is a parasite medication and not for bacterial infections.
=============
The breeder lied to me when he said the Formaldehyde helps control bacterial
infections? Many of these infections are started by parasites that damaged
the slime coat allowing bacterial infections to get a start. Quick-Cure
works great for me and has for years.

Also see:
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/malachite.htm

--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[carlrs]

Tynk wrote:
> Mac Cool wrote:
> > I followed directions from several websites:
> >
> > 1. Separated from the main tank
> > 2. Changed water in the main tank and washed with hot water
> > 3. Put betta in his old 1/2 gallon tank and other fish back into main
> > tank.
> > 4. Put appropriate amounts of conditioning salt in both tanks (I wasn't
> > using salt before)
> > 5. Treated both tanks with Jungle Fungus Clear. If he gets worse after a
> > day or two I'll move up to something stronger.
> >
> > My betta has become listless, won't eat and just rests below the surface
> > of the water. He does react if I approach the tank but he's not feeling
> > well. Part of his fin is gone and a bit raggedy, he also has a white
> > circle on his side.
> >
> > I don't have a heater in either tank but in winter they stay between 75-78
> > degrees, in the summer about 80-85 degrees.
> >
> > How am I doing here? Missing anything?
> > --
> > Mac Cool
>
> Hello Mac.
> I understand your fish has already passed, but I wanted to make several
> comments.
>
> You said your fish had fin rot. You mentioned treating it with Jungle
> brand's Fungus Clear. That's wrong med for fin rot, which is bacterial.
> Jungle brand's Fungus Eliminator is the one that treats both true
> fungus, and many bacterial infections...Fin rot being one of them...and
> happens to be the med I recommend most for it. Many people make the
> mistake of getting the Fungus Clear...but it's not the same medication
> and will not work the same.
> If Fin rot isn't treated properly, the fish can die quickly... as you
> have seen.
> Your tank's temp was a bit chilly for a Betta, especially one suffering
> from Fin rot (an infection they are prone to get).
> As for the other poster's comment about using Quick Cure for Fin
> rot..nope. Wrong medication.
> I love Quick Cure, but it's for parasites. Not bacterial infections.
> It's actually one of 2 meds I keep on hand at all times, and Jungle's
> Fungus Eliminator is the other.
> I've been in the hobby most my life and specialize in both Bettas and
> Angelfish, and after all these years, those are the only meds I keep on
> hand out of the hundreds available.
> As for the same poster's recommendation for Aquarisol....it's also for
> parasites, but it's too weak. Usually the fish ends up dying from the
> parasite before Aquarisol can kill it.
> It's said to be used as a preventative, but I never recommend using
> meds for no reason.
> Most seasoned hobbyists will say the same. Never treat with medications
> that you don't know about, don't know what you are treating for, and
> for no reason. That's wise advice.
> The white, flat patch sounded like a bacterial infection as well. Ich
> would have looked like a grain of sugar, usually more than one spot and
> isn't flat. A fungal attack would have looked like a cottony, white,
> fuzzy patch that grows quickly. Think white mold growing on somthing
> nasty that was forgotten about in the back of the frige. (Not that I am
> admitting to doing that ever, lol). = )
> I'm sorry for your loss, and if this ever happens with any of your
> other fish, or in the future, you'll know how to treat it, and what to
> use.
> Keep a close eye on the other fish it was housed with. He got that
> bacterial infection for a reason and until you figure out the *why*,
> you may not be done with it.
> Are you keeping up on regular water changes?
> Were there any new fish added without quarantining them?

Actually malachite Green has some anti-fungal properties (not much for
bacteria though), but Methylene Blue does have anti bacterial
properties both gram negative and gram positive.

This is why I would often start with a Methylene Blue Bath, as this has
proven over the years to be very effective until the antibiotics kick
in.
Methylene Blue should be part of any aquarists first line of defence as
you stated "Usually the fish ends up dying from the
parasite before Aquarisol can kill it.", this Med works immediately in
a bath

Also I mentioned Pimafix which also has proven to effective against
gram negative bacterial infections including columnaris which this may
have been.
Nitrfurazone, Kanamyacin, and Triple Sulfa also are effective here.

Medicated Wonder shells also have some gram negative capabilities
(although this product is generally better for fungus and ich or
velvet), but this product also adds needed electrolytes and calcium,
again which my years of aquarium maintenance experience and research
have shown (not mention many back in LA where I ran my service can
attest to!). The regular Wonder Shells are a product especially for
Betta bowls I think again should be part of many aquarists arsenal, but
this is hard to convince on the Usenet.

Carl
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Information.html

[Zebulon]

"carlrs" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Methylene Blue should be part of any aquarists first line of defence as
> you stated "Usually the fish ends up dying from the
> parasite before Aquarisol can kill it.", this Med works immediately in
> a bath

I've seen improvement in bettas with velvet in 24 hours using Aquarisol.

> Also I mentioned Pimafix which also has proven to effective against
> gram negative bacterial infections including columnaris which this may
> have been.
> Nitrfurazone, Kanamyacin, and Triple Sulfa also are effective here.

I was told these antibiotics are having less and less of an effect on
diseases due to overuse.

> Medicated Wonder shells also have some gram negative capabilities
> (although this product is generally better for fungus and ich or
> velvet), but this product also adds needed electrolytes and calcium,

What antibiotic do they contain? Does it effect the nitrifying bacteria?
And with bettas liking a softer acid water would calcium help them in any
way?

> again which my years of aquarium maintenance experience and research
> have shown (not mention many back in LA where I ran my service can
> attest to!). The regular Wonder Shells are a product especially for
> Betta bowls I think again should be part of many aquarists arsenal, but
> this is hard to convince on the Usenet.

I don't recall seeing anything called Wonder Shells in the local stores.
What do they contain?
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Tynk]

Zëbulon wrote:

>
> Aquarisol is also for parasites, not bacterial infections and is a
> pretty weak medication.
> ========================
> Oh, did he say it was bacterial? I didn't see that message claiming it was
> a bacterial infection.

He didn't say the actual words "bacterial infection", but the poster
*Mac Cool* titled their post "treating my Bettas fin rot" and talked
about it's fin rot problem and what they were treating it for.
Fin Rot is a bacterial infection, not parasitic.

[carlrs]

Zëbulon wrote:
> "carlrs" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Methylene Blue should be part of any aquarists first line of defence as
> > you stated "Usually the fish ends up dying from the
> > parasite before Aquarisol can kill it.", this Med works immediately in
> > a bath
>
> I've seen improvement in bettas with velvet in 24 hours using Aquarisol.
>
I do not argue this, as velvet has a fast life cycle (as compared to
ich). Also I responding more to the other comment, not yours, as I don
not dispute your results. I prefer a
Methylene Blue bath as a first coarse of action when practicle.

> > Also I mentioned Pimafix which also has proven to effective against
> > gram negative bacterial infections including columnaris which this may
> > have been.
> > Nitrfurazone, Kanamyacin, and Triple Sulfa also are effective here.
>
> I was told these antibiotics are having less and less of an effect on
> diseases due to overuse.

Pimafix , along with Melafix, and Usnic Acid are not antibiotics.
As for the antibiotics, that is again why I start with are methods of
treatment first to prevent over use, but Kanamycin in particular is
still very effective when not over used.

> > Medicated Wonder shells also have some gram negative capabilities
> > (although this product is generally better for fungus and ich or
> > velvet), but this product also adds needed electrolytes and calcium,
>
> What antibiotic do they contain? Does it effect the nitrifying bacteria?
> And with bettas liking a softer acid water would calcium help them in any
> way?
They contain no antibiotics. They contain Malachite Green, Copper
Sulfate, Acriflavin, and buffered Methylene Blue. The effect on
nitrifying bacteria is minimal (although like any "medication" they
should not be over used). Medicated Wonder Shells can be hard on plants
even over used.
As for calcium, recent studies show ALL fish including discus need
Calcium for proper osmotic function and disease prevention. The calcium
also buffers the Malachite Green lower toxicity. The Medicated and
Regular Wonder Shells also add electrolytes which are also very
important for aquarium Redox and fish health.
Here is a link to an article about this:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html

> > again which my years of aquarium maintenance experience and research
> > have shown (not mention many back in LA where I ran my service can
> > attest to!). The regular Wonder Shells are a product especially for
> > Betta bowls I think again should be part of many aquarists arsenal, but
> > this is hard to convince on the Usenet.
>
> I don't recall seeing anything called Wonder Shells in the local stores.
> What do they contain?
> --
> ZB....
> Frugal ponding since 1995.
> rec.ponder since late 1996.
> My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
> http://tinyurl.com/9do58
> ~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

Wonder Shells have been around for quite a while in the LA area and are
still a popular product there with many aquarists. Medicated Wonder
Shells are a product I developed over the years of aquarium maintenance
based on what I felt was the need for a better ich/ velvet/ fungus
treatment that could also medicate when I was not present at a clients
aquarium. I used the wonder shell based on my experience with this
product as a good too for aquatic husbandry (despite the over blown
name, as this product is only a tool, not a "Wonder" cure all).

Hope all this helps as I respect your opinions.

Here is a link to Wonder Shells themselves with more info:
http://americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html

Carl

[Zebulon]

"carlrs" > wrote in message
oups.com...

Zëbulon wrote:
> "carlrs" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Methylene Blue should be part of any aquarists first line of defence as
> > you stated "Usually the fish ends up dying from the
> > parasite before Aquarisol can kill it.", this Med works immediately in
> > a bath
>
> I've seen improvement in bettas with velvet in 24 hours using Aquarisol.
>
I do not argue this, as velvet has a fast life cycle (as compared to
ich). Also I responding more to the other comment, not yours, as I don
not dispute your results. I prefer a
Methylene Blue bath as a first coarse of action when practicle.

I assume you remove the fish for treatment if it's a bath. Some people have
a lot of fish in larger tanks and that wouldn't be easy or practical. It's
been my experience that bacterial infections get their start with parasites.
I think we all know poor quality water takes down the fishes immune system
and makes them easy prey to bacterial and fungal infections with or without
parasites. This would be more a newbie to the hobbys problem. Experienced
aquarists keep the water in good condition. Parasites in new fish are why I
treat all incoming fish whether I see signs of them or not. Other people
disagree with this. We're all entitled to our own opinion. After a real
bad experience with gill-flukes I don't take chances anymore.

> > Also I mentioned Pimafix which also has proven to effective against
> > gram negative bacterial infections including columnaris which this may
> > have been.
> > Nitrfurazone, Kanamyacin, and Triple Sulfa also are effective here.
>
> I was told these antibiotics are having less and less of an effect on
> diseases due to overuse.

Pimafix , along with Melafix, and Usnic Acid are not antibiotics.
As for the antibiotics, that is again why I start with are methods of
treatment first to prevent over use, but Kanamycin in particular is
still very effective when not over used.

That's good to know. Thanks. :-)

> > Medicated Wonder shells also have some gram negative capabilities
> > (although this product is generally better for fungus and ich or
> > velvet), but this product also adds needed electrolytes and calcium,
>
> What antibiotic do they contain? Does it effect the nitrifying bacteria?
> And with bettas liking a softer acid water would calcium help them in any
> way?

They contain no antibiotics. They contain Malachite Green, Copper
Sulfate, Acriflavin, and buffered Methylene Blue. The effect on
nitrifying bacteria is minimal (although like any "medication" they
should not be over used). Medicated Wonder Shells can be hard on plants
even over used.
As for calcium, recent studies show ALL fish including discus need
Calcium for proper osmotic function and disease prevention. The calcium
also buffers the Malachite Green lower toxicity. The Medicated and
Regular Wonder Shells also add electrolytes which are also very
important for aquarium Redox and fish health.
Here is a link to an article about this:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html

> > again which my years of aquarium maintenance experience and research
> > have shown (not mention many back in LA where I ran my service can
> > attest to!). The regular Wonder Shells are a product especially for
> > Betta bowls I think again should be part of many aquarists arsenal, but
> > this is hard to convince on the Usenet.
>
> I don't recall seeing anything called Wonder Shells in the local stores.
> What do they contain?

Wonder Shells have been around for quite a while in the LA area and are
still a popular product there with many aquarists. Medicated Wonder
Shells are a product I developed over the years of aquarium maintenance
based on what I felt was the need for a better ich/ velvet/ fungus
treatment that could also medicate when I was not present at a clients
aquarium. I used the wonder shell based on my experience with this
product as a good too for aquatic husbandry (despite the over blown
name, as this product is only a tool, not a "Wonder" cure all).

Hope all this helps as I respect your opinions.

Here is a link to Wonder Shells themselves with more info:
http://americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html

Carl

Thank you for the information.

--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> ~~~~ }<((((({*>

[Mac Cool]

Tynk:
> Keep a close eye on the other fish it was housed with. He got that
> bacterial infection for a reason and until you figure out the *why*,
> you may not be done with it.
> Are you keeping up on regular water changes?
> Were there any new fish added without quarantining them?

Good info. Yes I had added fish to the tank. Here was the sequence of
events...
1. Bought a 4G Biorb for my betta who was in a .5G tank my wife had
bought for him.
(I found out after the fact that people seem to hate these tanks but it
seemed perfect for the betta and probably would have been if I had left
him alone)
2. After a couple of weeks I decided to add some fish, so I added two
rasboras and a panda cory, didn't know about quaranting yet.
3. Cory died within hours and I thought maybe it was a fluke. Changed
the water, washed the bowl & contents with hot water and replaced fish.
4. betta got sick the next day, I separated him and treated both tanks
with Jungle Clear (which in my defense does say for fungus and bacteria
on the label) and he died late that night.
5. Two rasboras died two days after with no signs of infection or rot.
Another rasbora was swimming in a spiral motion so I took him back to
the pet store and they said they would try to save him. I changed half
the water but did not retreat with Jungle Clear.

I figured the other rasboras would die but they didn't. So far they
appear healthy and strong but so did the others right up until they
died. The rasboras that are alive don't seem to have much of an
appetite. They nibble a bit but not much. I've been feeding them once
per day. I plan to change 20% of the water in a few days.

I just checked the water quality and everything was fine except Nitrites
which are starting to rise again so I added a conditioner made by Prime
to remove ammonia and detoxify nitrites and nitrates until I can do
another partial water change.

--
Mac Cool

[carlrs]

Mac Cool wrote:
> Tynk:
> > Keep a close eye on the other fish it was housed with. He got that
> > bacterial infection for a reason and until you figure out the *why*,
> > you may not be done with it.
> > Are you keeping up on regular water changes?
> > Were there any new fish added without quarantining them?
>
> Good info. Yes I had added fish to the tank. Here was the sequence of
> events...
> 1. Bought a 4G Biorb for my betta who was in a .5G tank my wife had
> bought for him.
> (I found out after the fact that people seem to hate these tanks but it
> seemed perfect for the betta and probably would have been if I had left
> him alone)
> 2. After a couple of weeks I decided to add some fish, so I added two
> rasboras and a panda cory, didn't know about quaranting yet.
> 3. Cory died within hours and I thought maybe it was a fluke. Changed
> the water, washed the bowl & contents with hot water and replaced fish.
> 4. betta got sick the next day, I separated him and treated both tanks
> with Jungle Clear (which in my defense does say for fungus and bacteria
> on the label) and he died late that night.
> 5. Two rasboras died two days after with no signs of infection or rot.
> Another rasbora was swimming in a spiral motion so I took him back to
> the pet store and they said they would try to save him. I changed half
> the water but did not retreat with Jungle Clear.
>
> I figured the other rasboras would die but they didn't. So far they
> appear healthy and strong but so did the others right up until they
> died. The rasboras that are alive don't seem to have much of an
> appetite. They nibble a bit but not much. I've been feeding them once
> per day. I plan to change 20% of the water in a few days.
>
> I just checked the water quality and everything was fine except Nitrites
> which are starting to rise again so I added a conditioner made by Prime
> to remove ammonia and detoxify nitrites and nitrates until I can do
> another partial water change.
>
> --
> Mac Cool

Prime is an excellent choice for nitrite de-toxifying, but you need to
make sure your tank is cycled properly. I would consider adding filter
media from an established aquarium.
I also would consider a Spirulina Flake that has Spirulina as the #1
ingredient such as Spirulina 20.
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Spirulina20Food.html
This is easier to digest and more importantly helps the immune system.
Make sure you also have a kH of at least 80 ppm, even for rasboras as
research has shown that calcium is important for proper osmotic
function and disease resistance.

As for treatment I have differ with this statement
>" Most seasoned hobbyists will say the same. Never treat with medications that you don't >know about; don't know what you are treating for, and for no reason. That's wise advice."
I have been professionally involved in this business for 27 years (hard
to convince some at groups like Freshwater Aquarium), and if you fish
have been dying and your water parameters are generally good, something
is wrong. How do learn about anything but by trying it out,
researching, and following others advice? That is why no one learns or
will label some products as trash without even trying them. I have
tried and researched and followed others links out of respect to see
what I can learn.
I often have seen similar problems with rasboras and tetras and
achieved results with Kanacyn (more gram negative) or erythromyacin
(more gram positive) and I have combined both in severe cases.
As I posted earlier Pimafix can be useful and so can the very new
treatment of usnic acid (found in Usnea Lichen) that many arrogant
aquarists still are not familiar with.
Also as I stated earlier, calcium and electrolytes are important for
your fish' recovery which is where regular wonder shells of the
medicated wonder shells shine (the medicated can be used as a
preventative which is where I use them a lot in my business, but not
constantly as no med should be).
Prophylactic treatment is also wise when new fish are introduced with
safe meds (best in a hospital tank when possible). I would also note
that I have observed Aquarisol work for treatment of Neon Tetra
disease (as well as Naladixic acid).

The bottum line is to make sure ALL your water parameters are correct
from ammonia to kH to even Redox, with the parameters are reasonably
good yet your fish are dying, you need to treat with the proper meds
and perform regular small water changes.

For more Medication info (including Usnea):
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.html

Carl
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Information.html
http://aquarium-info.blogspot.com/

[carlrs]

carlrs wrote:
> Mac Cool wrote:
> > Tynk:
> > > Keep a close eye on the other fish it was housed with. He got that
> > > bacterial infection for a reason and until you figure out the *why*,
> > > you may not be done with it.
> > > Are you keeping up on regular water changes?
> > > Were there any new fish added without quarantining them?
> >
> > Good info. Yes I had added fish to the tank. Here was the sequence of
> > events...
> > 1. Bought a 4G Biorb for my betta who was in a .5G tank my wife had
> > bought for him.
> > (I found out after the fact that people seem to hate these tanks but it
> > seemed perfect for the betta and probably would have been if I had left
> > him alone)
> > 2. After a couple of weeks I decided to add some fish, so I added two
> > rasboras and a panda cory, didn't know about quaranting yet.
> > 3. Cory died within hours and I thought maybe it was a fluke. Changed
> > the water, washed the bowl & contents with hot water and replaced fish.
> > 4. betta got sick the next day, I separated him and treated both tanks
> > with Jungle Clear (which in my defense does say for fungus and bacteria
> > on the label) and he died late that night.
> > 5. Two rasboras died two days after with no signs of infection or rot.
> > Another rasbora was swimming in a spiral motion so I took him back to
> > the pet store and they said they would try to save him. I changed half
> > the water but did not retreat with Jungle Clear.
> >
> > I figured the other rasboras would die but they didn't. So far they
> > appear healthy and strong but so did the others right up until they
> > died. The rasboras that are alive don't seem to have much of an
> > appetite. They nibble a bit but not much. I've been feeding them once
> > per day. I plan to change 20% of the water in a few days.
> >
> > I just checked the water quality and everything was fine except Nitrites
> > which are starting to rise again so I added a conditioner made by Prime
> > to remove ammonia and detoxify nitrites and nitrates until I can do
> > another partial water change.
> >
> > --
> > Mac Cool
>
> Prime is an excellent choice for nitrite de-toxifying, but you need to
> make sure your tank is cycled properly. I would consider adding filter
> media from an established aquarium.
> I also would consider a Spirulina Flake that has Spirulina as the #1
> ingredient such as Spirulina 20.
> http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Spirulina20Food.html
> This is easier to digest and more importantly helps the immune system.
> Make sure you also have a kH of at least 80 ppm, even for rasboras as
> research has shown that calcium is important for proper osmotic
> function and disease resistance.
>
> As for treatment I have differ with this statement
> >" Most seasoned hobbyists will say the same. Never treat with medications that you don't >know about; don't know what you are treating for, and for no reason. That's wise advice."
> I have been professionally involved in this business for 27 years (hard
> to convince some at groups like Freshwater Aquarium), and if you fish
> have been dying and your water parameters are generally good, something
> is wrong. How do learn about anything but by trying it out,
> researching, and following others advice? That is why no one learns or
> will label some products as trash without even trying them. I have
> tried and researched and followed others links out of respect to see
> what I can learn.
> I often have seen similar problems with rasboras and tetras and
> achieved results with Kanacyn (more gram negative) or erythromyacin
> (more gram positive) and I have combined both in severe cases.
> As I posted earlier Pimafix can be useful and so can the very new
> treatment of usnic acid (found in Usnea Lichen) that many arrogant
> aquarists still are not familiar with.
> Also as I stated earlier, calcium and electrolytes are important for
> your fish' recovery which is where regular wonder shells of the
> medicated wonder shells shine (the medicated can be used as a
> preventative which is where I use them a lot in my business, but not
> constantly as no med should be).
> Prophylactic treatment is also wise when new fish are introduced with
> safe meds (best in a hospital tank when possible). I would also note
> that I have observed Aquarisol work for treatment of Neon Tetra
> disease (as well as Naladixic acid).
>
> The bottum line is to make sure ALL your water parameters are correct
> from ammonia to kH to even Redox, with the parameters are reasonably
> good yet your fish are dying, you need to treat with the proper meds
> and perform regular small water changes.
>
> For more Medication info (including Usnea):
> http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.html
>
> Carl
> http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Information.html
> http://aquarium-info.blogspot.com/

Another note is to consider the methylene blue (mebromine works too)
baths, they are effective intitial treatments and have the advantage of
not being in your display tank. Methylene blue will also help with some
internal infections, especially infections of the blood.

Carl

[Mac Cool]

Thanks for the perspective.

So far the remaining two rasboras are doing fine.
--
Mac Cool

[Tynk]

Carlrs....
I know you disagree with many of regs both here and at the The
Freshwater Aquarium group, but I have noticed you recommend to folks a
little too quickly to medicate.
It seems like your first reply is to medicate when the poster hasn't
yet figured out what they're dealing with.
And when it comes to newbies, that's about the last thing you want to
suggest right off the bat.
Over the years I have learned that when many people say "my water tests
fine" they don't always know what that really means.
I have read on countless occasions (and not just here or at TFA) that
that could mean they tested their pH. I have truly read this countless
times.
I have on many occasion found the statement "my water tests fine" to
mean really nothing.
Now I'm not saying this poster is this way, not at all. I'm just trying
to point out that many people will simply say their water's fine when
in reality they have no clue.
You take that statement as fact or truth and start listing medications
to toss in.
Now I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, not at all. I am
suggesting that you dig a little farther before dumping a list of meds
on the poster.
Medicating a tank *should be* the last resort. The first recommendation
should always be a water change no matter what the situation.
I can't even remember how many times a poster or emailer has said
help..my fish are dying..I reply...do a water change, and they say I
just did one the other day.
It doesn't matter. I would still say do another one, while asking many
quesitons. It amazes me how many times some sort of toxin got into the
tank either via the air or from somebody in the household.
People don't realize how toxic spraying something as simple as air
freshner in the same room as a tank can be, or an endless list of
pollutants.
Other things like hand lotion, or chemicals under the nails that
weren't washed properly. Sometimes it takes a little time and prodding
to get to the real culprit and medicating isn't always the first
answer. Please just do a little more digging before dishing out the
medication list. That's all I'm hoping for. = )

[carlrs]

Tynk wrote:
> Carlrs....
> I know you disagree with many of regs both here and at the The
> Freshwater Aquarium group, but I have noticed you recommend to folks a
> little too quickly to medicate.
> It seems like your first reply is to medicate when the poster hasn't
> yet figured out what they're dealing with.
> And when it comes to newbies, that's about the last thing you want to
> suggest right off the bat.
> Over the years I have learned that when many people say "my water tests
> fine" they don't always know what that really means.
> I have read on countless occasions (and not just here or at TFA) that
> that could mean they tested their pH. I have truly read this countless
> times.
> I have on many occasion found the statement "my water tests fine" to
> mean really nothing.
> Now I'm not saying this poster is this way, not at all. I'm just trying
> to point out that many people will simply say their water's fine when
> in reality they have no clue.
> You take that statement as fact or truth and start listing medications
> to toss in.
> Now I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, not at all. I am
> suggesting that you dig a little farther before dumping a list of meds
> on the poster.
> Medicating a tank *should be* the last resort. The first recommendation
> should always be a water change no matter what the situation.
> I can't even remember how many times a poster or emailer has said
> help..my fish are dying..I reply...do a water change, and they say I
> just did one the other day.
> It doesn't matter. I would still say do another one, while asking many
> quesitons. It amazes me how many times some sort of toxin got into the
> tank either via the air or from somebody in the household.
> People don't realize how toxic spraying something as simple as air
> freshner in the same room as a tank can be, or an endless list of
> pollutants.
> Other things like hand lotion, or chemicals under the nails that
> weren't washed properly. Sometimes it takes a little time and prodding
> to get to the real culprit and medicating isn't always the first
> answer. Please just do a little more digging before dishing out the
> medication list. That's all I'm hoping for. = )

Actually if you read more of my posts especially in the other forums
(several I moderate) or if anyone bothered to read my many researched
articles, I ask just those questions. I am a big proponent of
prevention that is why I have published so much about kH (which I
believe is much more important than pH), Redox, UV Sterilization,
aquarium cleaning and much more.
Even in this post I was suggesting a bath, not a treatment and was
suggesting possible meds and more reading.
People need to read my articles and not flame me as on TFA.
I find it interesting that many will imply CO2 generators are a needed
for plant tanks and then out of hand dis UV sterilizers without doing
their home work.
Wonder Shells ARE NOT MEDS, yet other on the Usenet have gone Baptist
on me when this product has been used successfully as a tool (Not a
cure all or miracle product) for good aquatic husbandry.
I also find the way Dr. F & S (my feedback for this site was not good
from my previous service customers) is thrown around like the God of
internet stores reprehensible when I am again slammed for even
mentioning something I may sell (and like I am rich, yea cant even make
my house payment and pay all my medical bills).

I will admit that on this post I should have asked more questions, but
I was late answering, and I have found that often long answers do not
get read (especially in some forums where I post more)

All I ask is that you (or others such as denizen) read my articles and
what I say before you jump to these conclusions.
Also I did not build my business on word of mouth with clients that had
as many as 90 aquariums in one location before I had to move by giving
bad advice.
As for regs, what regs? Most well moderated forums, including the ones
I have been invited to moderate to not allow what goes on here.

Carl
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Information.html

[carlrs]

Tynk wrote:
> Carlrs....
> I know you disagree with many of regs both here and at the The
> Freshwater Aquarium group, but I have noticed you recommend to folks a
> little too quickly to medicate.
> It seems like your first reply is to medicate when the poster hasn't
> yet figured out what they're dealing with.
> And when it comes to newbies, that's about the last thing you want to
> suggest right off the bat.
> Over the years I have learned that when many people say "my water tests
> fine" they don't always know what that really means.
> I have read on countless occasions (and not just here or at TFA) that
> that could mean they tested their pH. I have truly read this countless
> times.
> I have on many occasion found the statement "my water tests fine" to
> mean really nothing.
> Now I'm not saying this poster is this way, not at all. I'm just trying
> to point out that many people will simply say their water's fine when
> in reality they have no clue.
> You take that statement as fact or truth and start listing medications
> to toss in.
> Now I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, not at all. I am
> suggesting that you dig a little farther before dumping a list of meds
> on the poster.
> Medicating a tank *should be* the last resort. The first recommendation
> should always be a water change no matter what the situation.
> I can't even remember how many times a poster or emailer has said
> help..my fish are dying..I reply...do a water change, and they say I
> just did one the other day.
> It doesn't matter. I would still say do another one, while asking many
> quesitons. It amazes me how many times some sort of toxin got into the
> tank either via the air or from somebody in the household.
> People don't realize how toxic spraying something as simple as air
> freshner in the same room as a tank can be, or an endless list of
> pollutants.
> Other things like hand lotion, or chemicals under the nails that
> weren't washed properly. Sometimes it takes a little time and prodding
> to get to the real culprit and medicating isn't always the first
> answer. Please just do a little more digging before dishing out the
> medication list. That's all I'm hoping for. = )

By the way, I am not saying that you are anyone else at TFA do not know
what they doing, in fact quite the opposite, that is why I still read
there and provide links from some of my blogs to NetMax's site such as
here http://aquarium-info.blogspot.com/
But knowledge can be a dangerous thing too, when some will not try and
consider others ideas. That is why I read there and other areas that I
do not post, as even if I do not agree, I will read references and try
and learn something, and sometimes it leads me to new research and
forces my opinion to change. In all honesty, I have to correct myself
often as I continue to learn and new research becomes available (such
as in calcium, Redox, UV sterilization). This also goes for businesses
too
I will admit to sometimes accepting ideas sometimes too fast before I
check the facts too as I did when my brother in law (who runs my old
maintenance business in LA) passed some math about a "new" way to
calculate fish per tank size, neither of us tested the math before I
ran with it until I was corrected by another who ran the figures. Heck
I am not perfect, but what I do disdain is someone challenging my
motives and integrity without checking the facts of my post or knowing
where I have been in life (and I would not even be here if I was only
thinking of myself, I would still be in So Cal).

Carl

[Tynk]

carlrs wrote:
(Snipped)


>
> All I ask is that you (or others such as denizen) read my articles and
> what I say before you jump to these conclusions.
> Also I did not build my business on word of mouth with clients that had
> as many as 90 aquariums in one location before I had to move by giving
> bad advice.
> As for regs, what regs? Most well moderated forums, including the ones
> I have been invited to moderate to not allow what goes on here.
>
> Carl
> http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Information.html

By "regs" I am referring to anyone who regularly posts here or at TFA.
That's all I meant by that.

Now, as for your other comments, I wasn't bashing you, jumping to
conclusions. giving you a hard time about your Wonder Shells, or
anything like that.
I was simply asking that before handing out advice on treatments for
diseases, you ask a few more questions. I remember asking this very
same thing of you quite a while ago. It was for the same reason. Before
any real info came in on the person's fish or tank situation,
medications or baths were recommended. I understand you are big on
prevention.
I am too, just in a quarantine way. I do not treat quarantined fish
just because, I do it if they show obvious signs of parasites or
infections.
I am a true believer in that medications are tossed around way too
often in this hobby.
Like I said before, I am not saying you are wrong, just asking that you
slow down and be more patient in getting a full picture of what's going
on before suggesting meds or baths.
If folks have bashed or flamed you for this, I am not. I am simply
asking you slow down and gather a little more info, that's all. I'm not
saying stop doing what you do, just slow it down.
If after the whole picture comes in, and it still seems like meds or a
bath are still the best approach, go for it. This is your area of
speciality.

[carlrs]

Tynk wrote:
> carlrs wrote:
> (Snipped)
>
>
> >
> > All I ask is that you (or others such as denizen) read my articles and
> > what I say before you jump to these conclusions.
> > Also I did not build my business on word of mouth with clients that had
> > as many as 90 aquariums in one location before I had to move by giving
> > bad advice.
> > As for regs, what regs? Most well moderated forums, including the ones
> > I have been invited to moderate to not allow what goes on here.
> >
> > Carl
> > http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Information.html
>
> By "regs" I am referring to anyone who regularly posts here or at TFA.
> That's all I meant by that.
>
> Now, as for your other comments, I wasn't bashing you, jumping to
> conclusions. giving you a hard time about your Wonder Shells, or
> anything like that.
> I was simply asking that before handing out advice on treatments for
> diseases, you ask a few more questions. I remember asking this very
> same thing of you quite a while ago. It was for the same reason. Before
> any real info came in on the person's fish or tank situation,
> medications or baths were recommended. I understand you are big on
> prevention.
> I am too, just in a quarantine way. I do not treat quarantined fish
> just because, I do it if they show obvious signs of parasites or
> infections.
> I am a true believer in that medications are tossed around way too
> often in this hobby.
> Like I said before, I am not saying you are wrong, just asking that you
> slow down and be more patient in getting a full picture of what's going
> on before suggesting meds or baths.
> If folks have bashed or flamed you for this, I am not. I am simply
> asking you slow down and gather a little more info, that's all. I'm not
> saying stop doing what you do, just slow it down.
> If after the whole picture comes in, and it still seems like meds or a
> bath are still the best approach, go for it. This is your area of
> speciality.

Not and try and get the last word, I just want to publicly post this.

> If folks have bashed or flamed you for this, I am not. I am simply
> asking you slow down and gather a little more info, that's all. I'm not


I did not mean to imply that you were, in fact I seem to recall you
backing up statements of mine when I was flamed many months back. But I
did have my character impugned and flamed on TFA.
Anyway my sincere apologies for implying anything about your statements
towards me.

> I am too, just in a quarantine way. I do not treat quarantined fish
> Just because, I do it if they show obvious signs of parasites or
> Infections.
> I am a true believer in that medications are tossed around way too
> Often in this hobby.

I agree with over use, that is why I study many alternatives (such as
Usnea Lichen) as well as prevention.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree somewhat on quarantine
methods. When I quarantine fish coming in from the Far East or
elsewhere I place them in a dark aquarium with Methylene Blue. This
does not cause the problems that true antibiotics can as far as disease
resistance. Also, methylene blue acts as a hemoglobin transfer agent
and aids in the stress and damage often caused by excess ammonia during
the shipping process.
Both in marine and FW fish I have achieved healthier display tanks and
eventually client tanks this way (including feedback from my LFS
clients).

> saying stop doing what you do, just slow it down.
> If after the whole picture comes in, and it still seems like meds or a
> Bath is still the best approach, go for it. This is your area of
> Specialty

In this thread you are right. I made some assumptions about knowledge
that maybe I should not have. But in many of the forums I am in the
others are often experienced aquarists so some things go un asked or
assumed (this was not the case with customers in my previous LFS). I
would also note that the other side of the coin is arrogance (which I
have seen in many forums, and much more here on the Usenet) where
experienced aquarists are so condescending in their talking down to
newbies or even other experienced aquarists which tends to turn the
question asker off.

> your Wonder Shells

These are not my product (yes I do make a medicated one, but the one I
recommend by far the most in my posts and articles is the regular one
for Calcium, electrolytes, and aid in kH control)

Carl

[Altum]

carlrs wrote:

> By the way, I am not saying that you are anyone else at TFA do not know
> what they doing, in fact quite the opposite, that is why I still read
> there and provide links from some of my blogs to NetMax's site such as
> here http://aquarium-info.blogspot.com/

Carl, you were flamed in one thread by one person for your suggestion
that a newbie who was asking about basic goldfish husbandry purchase an
expensive, high-tech UV sterilizer. The person who flamed you said in
a later post in the same thread that he respects your knowledge and
experience. I don't understand why you keep mentioning the incident on
Usenet. We ALL get flamed at some time or another - you can't take it
personally. You are always welcome to post in TFA.

--Altum

[[email protected]]

carlrs wrote:
> I have been professionally involved in this business for 27 years (hard
> to convince some at groups like Freshwater Aquarium
For most of us this is a hobby, but a serious one. A couple of
aquarists I know and highly respect, have completed advanced degrees in
the natural sciences and their advice is more useful than commercial
Internet blogs. Books are good, too.

> For more Medication info (including Usnea):
All this talk of drugs reminds me of an old Steppenwolf song:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher

Flames, eh?
d.

[Gill Passman]

Altum wrote:
> carlrs wrote:
>
>
>>By the way, I am not saying that you are anyone else at TFA do not know
>>what they doing, in fact quite the opposite, that is why I still read
>>there and provide links from some of my blogs to NetMax's site such as
>>here http://aquarium-info.blogspot.com/
>
>
> Carl, you were flamed in one thread by one person for your suggestion
> that a newbie who was asking about basic goldfish husbandry purchase an
> expensive, high-tech UV sterilizer. The person who flamed you said in
> a later post in the same thread that he respects your knowledge and
> experience. I don't understand why you keep mentioning the incident on
> Usenet. We ALL get flamed at some time or another - you can't take it
> personally. You are always welcome to post in TFA.
>
> --Altum
>


I will second this...having missed the post in question on TFA I was
always a little confused as to your hurt.....or maybe I saw it as just
part of an educated debate (or fact of life) and skimmed over it (even
as a moderator)......I don't believe that anyone made you less than very
welcome on TFA and some of us have actually missed you....flame wars
happen on Usenet and on a lot of other forums not just TFA....just a
fact of life and one that we all learn to deal with....and I would hope
that it is a question that TFA deals with with a little more maturity
than some groups.....none of us have ever said that you are not
welcome....in fact the opposite is the case....anyone with your
experience is always welcome....now if you get a little bit too
commercial for the tastes of some of our posters then they can take you
to task if they wish and you can defend yourself.....none of this
acutally goes against the moderation policy of the group and if any
flaming gets a little too hot it should go to personal email ....but
this is not censorship - just a suggestion....

I understand that you may well have been hurt by someone taking you to
task.....but a little bit of a thicker skin and appreciation that your
knowledge and experience is valued might be a better way to
go....additionally if you felt hurt by a post a quick email to the
owners/moderators of the group might have been a good way to address the
hurt......anyway, if you want to come back to TFA we will welcome you.....

Gill

[[email protected]]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Altum wrote:
> You are always welcome to post in TFA.
> >
> I will second this

Carl, I'd also welcome your posts on TFA and I'm not even a group
manager, just a budding arsonist ;o) .
d.

[carlrs]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Altum wrote:
> > carlrs wrote:
> >
> >
> >>By the way, I am not saying that you are anyone else at TFA do not know
> >>what they doing, in fact quite the opposite, that is why I still read
> >>there and provide links from some of my blogs to NetMax's site such as
> >>here http://aquarium-info.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> > Carl, you were flamed in one thread by one person for your suggestion
> > that a newbie who was asking about basic goldfish husbandry purchase an
> > expensive, high-tech UV sterilizer. The person who flamed you said in
> > a later post in the same thread that he respects your knowledge and
> > experience. I don't understand why you keep mentioning the incident on
> > Usenet. We ALL get flamed at some time or another - you can't take it
> > personally. You are always welcome to post in TFA.
> >
> > --Altum
> >
>
>
> I will second this...having missed the post in question on TFA I was
> always a little confused as to your hurt.....or maybe I saw it as just
> part of an educated debate (or fact of life) and skimmed over it (even
> as a moderator)......I don't believe that anyone made you less than very
> welcome on TFA and some of us have actually missed you....flame wars
> happen on Usenet and on a lot of other forums not just TFA....just a
> fact of life and one that we all learn to deal with....and I would hope
> that it is a question that TFA deals with with a little more maturity
> than some groups.....none of us have ever said that you are not
> welcome....in fact the opposite is the case....anyone with your
> experience is always welcome....now if you get a little bit too
> commercial for the tastes of some of our posters then they can take you
> to task if they wish and you can defend yourself.....none of this
> acutally goes against the moderation policy of the group and if any
> flaming gets a little too hot it should go to personal email ....but
> this is not censorship - just a suggestion....
>
> I understand that you may well have been hurt by someone taking you to
> task.....but a little bit of a thicker skin and appreciation that your
> knowledge and experience is valued might be a better way to
> go....additionally if you felt hurt by a post a quick email to the
> owners/moderators of the group might have been a good way to address the
> hurt......anyway, if you want to come back to TFA we will welcome you.....
>
> Gill

Actually I never left, I still read there as there are so many well
informed aquarists at TFA from Altum, NetMax, yourself, Mister Gardner,
and MANY others.

Your points are well taken, I should have dropped an email and
explained my thoughts.
As for the thicker skin, it was more based on how I felt based on my
comments vs others, wrong or right on my part. I would also state that
I will also admit to being over sensitive to this issue, but based on
my place in life right now vs where I was 5 years ago, that explains
some of this without going into further explaination.

Thanks for your honest thoughts, Altums, and denize's rather humerous
reponse.

Carl