from the idiot still trying to cycle....

[Elizabeth Armstrong]

I'm a bad fish owner. But I'm trying. Here's the deal:

A couple weeks ago I wrote in saying that I couldn't get ammonia under
control. That's still the case, but the ammonia's even higher.

I brought in my spiffy pink 2 gallon tank (UGF) from when I was 7 and
plopped my two mollies and betta in there to save them from the ammonia zoo
that is my 10 gallon tank. My 10 gallon tank still has 4 platys in there.
The little pink thing is still chugging and I've been water changing it,
etc. It's not as much the problem (test result - wise) except my two mollies
that were in there died. My stupidity killed one (please don't ask... I'm
too embarrassed and feel absolutely awful) and the other died without my
help. The betta's still happy there, it's cycling ... or so I hope.
Ammonia's at 1.0, no nitrite/nitrate, pH is 7.8.

My 10 gallon has a UGF that quit on me because the airstones got choked up
and I lack the opportunity to get it new ones until Saturday. Before that
was rendered useless (the pump is now driving the 2 gallon UGF) I got a
power filter (Whisper Jr) that has been going but I'm not so convinced it's
working correctly because...

Ammonia's still *way* high (like past deadly high... I feel absolutely awful
high... like 6.0), no nitrate/nitrite, pH is 7.8. I've been Ammo-Lock-ing it
every other day but have seen no difference and have been doing 20-30%
change every other day (just did it yesterday, ammonia's still insane). The
platys are still in there, happy as they ever were as is the Amazon Sword
plant they nibble on occassionally. I've also drastically reduced their food
(one to two flakes a day for the four of them... crumbled smaller). I know I
need to get the fish in there down to like 1 (or 0 at this point), but
shouldn't something have improved?

Unfortunately I can't even move some of platys to the pink tank temporarily
while the 10 gallon gets figured out because my betta just got pretty
territorial and wants no visitors.

I finally go home on Saturday (at college now - incidently I can't see
replies after then except email), so I have a few options. My mom has a
10-year established 30 gallon community tank that I can put the platys in
(minus the salt they have going). I don't know what her levels are at, but I
can test them. I also have a 6 gallon Eclipse tank that I bought and haven't
set up yet that I can put them in. Either way, what do I do with the 10
gallon when the platys are out? Should I leave a platy in? Should I scrap
and start over? What's wrong with my fish that they're not outwardly
bothered by the ammonia level? What's going on with the Ammo-Lock? I'm going
to have to take out a *lot* of the water to move it (right now I'm under the
idea that I want to leave some in to keep the cycle going and for the plant
instead of uprooting it).

Help!

Thanks everyone... I really appreciate the advice you keep giving me (and
everyone else's I read).

~Elizabeth

[Justin Boucher]

First question... How old is the ammonia test you are using? If it's not
new, you may want to consider a new one. Old ones can return a bad reading.

Next, how long have you been running the 10 gallon tank? Nitrate cycling
takes about 4-6 weeks on average, I've had one take nearly 8 weeks! If this
is a new set up, you overstocked your tank for the cycling. Slow is better
when cycling.

Keep in mind that any changes you make during the cycling process can affect
the cycle time. You mentioned water changes, ammo-lock and it even sounds
like a filter change. My philosophy is anytime you alter the ammonia or for
that matter the nitrate cycle before it's completed it's cycling, you might
as well start your calendar all over again.

You had mentioned that you have access to a 30 gallon? Rather than
transport your fish to that tank (and potentially contaminate it) see if
they will let you have some of their filter media or gravel. You would be
effectively seeding your tank with the necessary bacteria to complete the
nitrogen cycle.

In the past, I have rn UGFs without an airstone. I just let the air line
tubing run to the base of the lift. It's not as refined as using airstones,
but if access to an aristone is limited, the tank will still move water.

Keep in mind that cleaning anything in the tank will also affect the cycling
(decorations, artificial plants, etc.) The nitrifying bacterial collect on
any surface and you need as much of it to grow as soom as possible.

Finally, your pH is high. Try to bring that down. Slowly, with a high
ammonia reading (if it's accurate), changing the pH can make the ammonia
more deadly; however, nitrifying bacteria may not be able to grow properly
in high pH readings.

Keep it up, and don't stop trying. Just remember slow and controlled.
Nothing good ever happens fast in this hobbie.

Justin

"Elizabeth Armstrong" > wrote in message
...
> I'm a bad fish owner. But I'm trying. Here's the deal:
>
> A couple weeks ago I wrote in saying that I couldn't get ammonia under
> control. That's still the case, but the ammonia's even higher.
>
> I brought in my spiffy pink 2 gallon tank (UGF) from when I was 7 and
> plopped my two mollies and betta in there to save them from the ammonia
zoo
> that is my 10 gallon tank. My 10 gallon tank still has 4 platys in there.
> The little pink thing is still chugging and I've been water changing it,
> etc. It's not as much the problem (test result - wise) except my two
mollies
> that were in there died. My stupidity killed one (please don't ask... I'm
> too embarrassed and feel absolutely awful) and the other died without my
> help. The betta's still happy there, it's cycling ... or so I hope.
> Ammonia's at 1.0, no nitrite/nitrate, pH is 7.8.
>
> My 10 gallon has a UGF that quit on me because the airstones got choked up
> and I lack the opportunity to get it new ones until Saturday. Before that
> was rendered useless (the pump is now driving the 2 gallon UGF) I got a
> power filter (Whisper Jr) that has been going but I'm not so convinced
it's
> working correctly because...
>
> Ammonia's still *way* high (like past deadly high... I feel absolutely
awful
> high... like 6.0), no nitrate/nitrite, pH is 7.8. I've been Ammo-Lock-ing
it
> every other day but have seen no difference and have been doing 20-30%
> change every other day (just did it yesterday, ammonia's still insane).
The
> platys are still in there, happy as they ever were as is the Amazon Sword
> plant they nibble on occassionally. I've also drastically reduced their
food
> (one to two flakes a day for the four of them... crumbled smaller). I know
I
> need to get the fish in there down to like 1 (or 0 at this point), but
> shouldn't something have improved?
>
> Unfortunately I can't even move some of platys to the pink tank
temporarily
> while the 10 gallon gets figured out because my betta just got pretty
> territorial and wants no visitors.
>
> I finally go home on Saturday (at college now - incidently I can't see
> replies after then except email), so I have a few options. My mom has a
> 10-year established 30 gallon community tank that I can put the platys in
> (minus the salt they have going). I don't know what her levels are at, but
I
> can test them. I also have a 6 gallon Eclipse tank that I bought and
haven't
> set up yet that I can put them in. Either way, what do I do with the 10
> gallon when the platys are out? Should I leave a platy in? Should I scrap
> and start over? What's wrong with my fish that they're not outwardly
> bothered by the ammonia level? What's going on with the Ammo-Lock? I'm
going
> to have to take out a *lot* of the water to move it (right now I'm under
the
> idea that I want to leave some in to keep the cycle going and for the
plant
> instead of uprooting it).
>
> Help!
>
> Thanks everyone... I really appreciate the advice you keep giving me (and
> everyone else's I read).
>
> ~Elizabeth
>
>

[Dick]

On Thu, 13 May 2004 19:57:57 -0500, "Elizabeth Armstrong"
> wrote:

>I'm a bad fish owner. But I'm trying. Here's the deal:
>
>A couple weeks ago I wrote in saying that I couldn't get ammonia under
>control. That's still the case, but the ammonia's even higher.
>
>I brought in my spiffy pink 2 gallon tank (UGF) from when I was 7 and
>plopped my two mollies and betta in there to save them from the ammonia zoo
>that is my 10 gallon tank. My 10 gallon tank still has 4 platys in there.
>The little pink thing is still chugging and I've been water changing it,
>etc. It's not as much the problem (test result - wise) except my two mollies
>that were in there died. My stupidity killed one (please don't ask... I'm
>too embarrassed and feel absolutely awful) and the other died without my
>help. The betta's still happy there, it's cycling ... or so I hope.
>Ammonia's at 1.0, no nitrite/nitrate, pH is 7.8.
>
>My 10 gallon has a UGF that quit on me because the airstones got choked up
>and I lack the opportunity to get it new ones until Saturday. Before that
>was rendered useless (the pump is now driving the 2 gallon UGF) I got a
>power filter (Whisper Jr) that has been going but I'm not so convinced it's
>working correctly because...
>
>Ammonia's still *way* high (like past deadly high... I feel absolutely awful
>high... like 6.0), no nitrate/nitrite, pH is 7.8. I've been Ammo-Lock-ing it
>every other day but have seen no difference and have been doing 20-30%
>change every other day (just did it yesterday, ammonia's still insane). The
>platys are still in there, happy as they ever were as is the Amazon Sword
>plant they nibble on occassionally. I've also drastically reduced their food
>(one to two flakes a day for the four of them... crumbled smaller). I know I
>need to get the fish in there down to like 1 (or 0 at this point), but
>shouldn't something have improved?
>
>Unfortunately I can't even move some of platys to the pink tank temporarily
>while the 10 gallon gets figured out because my betta just got pretty
>territorial and wants no visitors.
>
>I finally go home on Saturday (at college now - incidently I can't see
>replies after then except email), so I have a few options. My mom has a
>10-year established 30 gallon community tank that I can put the platys in
>(minus the salt they have going). I don't know what her levels are at, but I
>can test them. I also have a 6 gallon Eclipse tank that I bought and haven't
>set up yet that I can put them in. Either way, what do I do with the 10
>gallon when the platys are out? Should I leave a platy in? Should I scrap
>and start over? What's wrong with my fish that they're not outwardly
>bothered by the ammonia level? What's going on with the Ammo-Lock? I'm going
>to have to take out a *lot* of the water to move it (right now I'm under the
>idea that I want to leave some in to keep the cycle going and for the plant
>instead of uprooting it).
>
>Help!
>
>Thanks everyone... I really appreciate the advice you keep giving me (and
>everyone else's I read).
>
>~Elizabeth
>

I am struck by a lack of symptoms. You talk about measurements. Are
your fish having any problems or are you just trying to prevent a
problem. For instance, cycling normally involves a milky look to the
water. Is your water milky or clear?

Are your fish gulping air by staying at the top?

Are your fish eating, are they hiding. There are so many ways fish
and plant behavior tell us things. I have trouble with these numbers
approaches. I don't trust my use nor do I feel able to translate the
numbers into good and bad, then I know all test kits are not the same.

I have had more problems fooling around with chemicals than I have had
by sticking with regular water changes. Unless you have bad local
water, I would forget the chemicals.

Don't fix it if it ain't broke.

[Elizabeth Armstrong]

It's been running since March 28... so a good 6, almost 7 weeks. I bought
the test kit right before I re-set up the tank (and started this cycle). I
thought it might be bad too but the pink tank's ammonia readings are typical
(from the same kit). I understand when I changed stuff (slowly introduced
the new filter, started ammo-lock, etc.) that it would take longer, but I
didn't think it would get significantly worse...?

I'll take the airstones off and try that way... hadn't thought of that. :) I
haven't cleaned any ornaments or anything since I set up but I did add two
plastic plants (already 3 in there).

As far as the pH, I wasn't worrying about it because websites that I came
across kept my pH in the recommended range for platys. Is this not true?

Thanks so much!

"Justin Boucher" > wrote in message
...
> First question... How old is the ammonia test you are using? If it's not
> new, you may want to consider a new one. Old ones can return a bad
reading.
>
> Next, how long have you been running the 10 gallon tank? Nitrate cycling
> takes about 4-6 weeks on average, I've had one take nearly 8 weeks! If
this
> is a new set up, you overstocked your tank for the cycling. Slow is
better
> when cycling.
>
> Keep in mind that any changes you make during the cycling process can
affect
> the cycle time. You mentioned water changes, ammo-lock and it even sounds
> like a filter change. My philosophy is anytime you alter the ammonia or
for
> that matter the nitrate cycle before it's completed it's cycling, you
might
> as well start your calendar all over again.
>
> You had mentioned that you have access to a 30 gallon? Rather than
> transport your fish to that tank (and potentially contaminate it) see if
> they will let you have some of their filter media or gravel. You would be
> effectively seeding your tank with the necessary bacteria to complete the
> nitrogen cycle.
>
> In the past, I have rn UGFs without an airstone. I just let the air line
> tubing run to the base of the lift. It's not as refined as using
airstones,
> but if access to an aristone is limited, the tank will still move water.
>
> Keep in mind that cleaning anything in the tank will also affect the
cycling
> (decorations, artificial plants, etc.) The nitrifying bacterial collect
on
> any surface and you need as much of it to grow as soom as possible.
>
> Finally, your pH is high. Try to bring that down. Slowly, with a high
> ammonia reading (if it's accurate), changing the pH can make the ammonia
> more deadly; however, nitrifying bacteria may not be able to grow properly
> in high pH readings.
>
> Keep it up, and don't stop trying. Just remember slow and controlled.
> Nothing good ever happens fast in this hobbie.
>
> Justin
>
> "Elizabeth Armstrong" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm a bad fish owner. But I'm trying. Here's the deal:
> >
> > A couple weeks ago I wrote in saying that I couldn't get ammonia under
> > control. That's still the case, but the ammonia's even higher.
> >
> > I brought in my spiffy pink 2 gallon tank (UGF) from when I was 7 and
> > plopped my two mollies and betta in there to save them from the ammonia
> zoo
> > that is my 10 gallon tank. My 10 gallon tank still has 4 platys in
there.
> > The little pink thing is still chugging and I've been water changing it,
> > etc. It's not as much the problem (test result - wise) except my two
> mollies
> > that were in there died. My stupidity killed one (please don't ask...
I'm
> > too embarrassed and feel absolutely awful) and the other died without my
> > help. The betta's still happy there, it's cycling ... or so I hope.
> > Ammonia's at 1.0, no nitrite/nitrate, pH is 7.8.
> >
> > My 10 gallon has a UGF that quit on me because the airstones got choked
up
> > and I lack the opportunity to get it new ones until Saturday. Before
that
> > was rendered useless (the pump is now driving the 2 gallon UGF) I got a
> > power filter (Whisper Jr) that has been going but I'm not so convinced
> it's
> > working correctly because...
> >
> > Ammonia's still *way* high (like past deadly high... I feel absolutely
> awful
> > high... like 6.0), no nitrate/nitrite, pH is 7.8. I've been
Ammo-Lock-ing
> it
> > every other day but have seen no difference and have been doing 20-30%
> > change every other day (just did it yesterday, ammonia's still insane).
> The
> > platys are still in there, happy as they ever were as is the Amazon
Sword
> > plant they nibble on occassionally. I've also drastically reduced their
> food
> > (one to two flakes a day for the four of them... crumbled smaller). I
know
> I
> > need to get the fish in there down to like 1 (or 0 at this point), but
> > shouldn't something have improved?
> >
> > Unfortunately I can't even move some of platys to the pink tank
> temporarily
> > while the 10 gallon gets figured out because my betta just got pretty
> > territorial and wants no visitors.
> >
> > I finally go home on Saturday (at college now - incidently I can't see
> > replies after then except email), so I have a few options. My mom has a
> > 10-year established 30 gallon community tank that I can put the platys
in
> > (minus the salt they have going). I don't know what her levels are at,
but
> I
> > can test them. I also have a 6 gallon Eclipse tank that I bought and
> haven't
> > set up yet that I can put them in. Either way, what do I do with the 10
> > gallon when the platys are out? Should I leave a platy in? Should I
scrap
> > and start over? What's wrong with my fish that they're not outwardly
> > bothered by the ammonia level? What's going on with the Ammo-Lock? I'm
> going
> > to have to take out a *lot* of the water to move it (right now I'm under
> the
> > idea that I want to leave some in to keep the cycle going and for the
> plant
> > instead of uprooting it).
> >
> > Help!
> >
> > Thanks everyone... I really appreciate the advice you keep giving me
(and
> > everyone else's I read).
> >
> > ~Elizabeth
> >
> >
>
>

[Elizabeth Armstrong]

I am very worried about how high my numbers are but the fish really are
fine. They have a big appetite (one has resorted to eating algae - maybe
because I'm feeding sparingly? - ... I'm confused), they aren't gulping for
air (the mollies did some but stopped when I got them out of there quickly),
they're not hiding... they just swim around at the top through plants and
chasing each other, or playing in the water from the power filter. They do
not have clamped fins or stay in one place for a long time (unless
sleeping). If this isn't typical, I don't know what is. :( So I'm very
confused because they are very fine but the ammonia is very high.

My water is very clear. It went through a cloudy spell last week (right
after a water change) but that has since passed. I'm completely at a loss.

~Elizabeth


"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 13 May 2004 19:57:57 -0500, "Elizabeth Armstrong"
> > wrote:
>
> >I'm a bad fish owner. But I'm trying. Here's the deal:
> >
> >A couple weeks ago I wrote in saying that I couldn't get ammonia under
> >control. That's still the case, but the ammonia's even higher.
> >
> >I brought in my spiffy pink 2 gallon tank (UGF) from when I was 7 and
> >plopped my two mollies and betta in there to save them from the ammonia
zoo
> >that is my 10 gallon tank. My 10 gallon tank still has 4 platys in there.
> >The little pink thing is still chugging and I've been water changing it,
> >etc. It's not as much the problem (test result - wise) except my two
mollies
> >that were in there died. My stupidity killed one (please don't ask... I'm
> >too embarrassed and feel absolutely awful) and the other died without my
> >help. The betta's still happy there, it's cycling ... or so I hope.
> >Ammonia's at 1.0, no nitrite/nitrate, pH is 7.8.
> >
> >My 10 gallon has a UGF that quit on me because the airstones got choked
up
> >and I lack the opportunity to get it new ones until Saturday. Before that
> >was rendered useless (the pump is now driving the 2 gallon UGF) I got a
> >power filter (Whisper Jr) that has been going but I'm not so convinced
it's
> >working correctly because...
> >
> >Ammonia's still *way* high (like past deadly high... I feel absolutely
awful
> >high... like 6.0), no nitrate/nitrite, pH is 7.8. I've been Ammo-Lock-ing
it
> >every other day but have seen no difference and have been doing 20-30%
> >change every other day (just did it yesterday, ammonia's still insane).
The
> >platys are still in there, happy as they ever were as is the Amazon Sword
> >plant they nibble on occassionally. I've also drastically reduced their
food
> >(one to two flakes a day for the four of them... crumbled smaller). I
know I
> >need to get the fish in there down to like 1 (or 0 at this point), but
> >shouldn't something have improved?
> >
> >Unfortunately I can't even move some of platys to the pink tank
temporarily
> >while the 10 gallon gets figured out because my betta just got pretty
> >territorial and wants no visitors.
> >
> >I finally go home on Saturday (at college now - incidently I can't see
> >replies after then except email), so I have a few options. My mom has a
> >10-year established 30 gallon community tank that I can put the platys in
> >(minus the salt they have going). I don't know what her levels are at,
but I
> >can test them. I also have a 6 gallon Eclipse tank that I bought and
haven't
> >set up yet that I can put them in. Either way, what do I do with the 10
> >gallon when the platys are out? Should I leave a platy in? Should I scrap
> >and start over? What's wrong with my fish that they're not outwardly
> >bothered by the ammonia level? What's going on with the Ammo-Lock? I'm
going
> >to have to take out a *lot* of the water to move it (right now I'm under
the
> >idea that I want to leave some in to keep the cycle going and for the
plant
> >instead of uprooting it).
> >
> >Help!
> >
> >Thanks everyone... I really appreciate the advice you keep giving me (and
> >everyone else's I read).
> >
> >~Elizabeth
> >
>
> I am struck by a lack of symptoms. You talk about measurements. Are
> your fish having any problems or are you just trying to prevent a
> problem. For instance, cycling normally involves a milky look to the
> water. Is your water milky or clear?
>
> Are your fish gulping air by staying at the top?
>
> Are your fish eating, are they hiding. There are so many ways fish
> and plant behavior tell us things. I have trouble with these numbers
> approaches. I don't trust my use nor do I feel able to translate the
> numbers into good and bad, then I know all test kits are not the same.
>
> I have had more problems fooling around with chemicals than I have had
> by sticking with regular water changes. Unless you have bad local
> water, I would forget the chemicals.
>
> Don't fix it if it ain't broke.

[kev]

On 13 May 2004, the world was enlightened by Elizabeth Armstrong's
opinion about...

<snip>

> Ammonia's still *way* high (like past deadly high... I feel absolutely
> awful high... like 6.0), no nitrate/nitrite, pH is 7.8. I've been
> Ammo-Lock-ing it every other day but have seen no difference and have
> been doing 20-30% change every other day (just did it yesterday,
> ammonia's still insane).

<snip>

Elizabeth, with a reading of 6.0, your fish should probably be dead.

Since they're not (whew! :), I think you may be getting a false-positive
reading for ammonia. Some tests are incompatible with dechloronators.
What ammonia test kit are you using?

You may want to test your water out of the tap for ammonia and then add
Ammo-Lock and test again to rule out a false reading.

hth,
kev

--
Civilization.

An organized system of alternatives to the stone age - CJCherryh

[Elizabeth Armstrong]

I'm using aquarium pharmaceutical's ammonia test - the one where you mix two
different solutions in with the sample. I'll try that test. Thanks :)

~Elizabeth

"kev" > wrote in message
.4...
> On 13 May 2004, the world was enlightened by Elizabeth Armstrong's
> opinion about...
>
> <snip>
>
> > Ammonia's still *way* high (like past deadly high... I feel absolutely
> > awful high... like 6.0), no nitrate/nitrite, pH is 7.8. I've been
> > Ammo-Lock-ing it every other day but have seen no difference and have
> > been doing 20-30% change every other day (just did it yesterday,
> > ammonia's still insane).
>
> <snip>
>
> Elizabeth, with a reading of 6.0, your fish should probably be dead.
>
> Since they're not (whew! :), I think you may be getting a false-positive
> reading for ammonia. Some tests are incompatible with dechloronators.
> What ammonia test kit are you using?
>
> You may want to test your water out of the tap for ammonia and then add
> Ammo-Lock and test again to rule out a false reading.
>
> hth,
> kev
>
> --
> Civilization.
>
> An organized system of alternatives to the stone age - CJCherryh

[Dick]

On Fri, 14 May 2004 10:19:10 -0500, "Elizabeth Armstrong"
> wrote:

>I am very worried about how high my numbers are but the fish really are
>fine. They have a big appetite (one has resorted to eating algae - maybe
>because I'm feeding sparingly? - ... I'm confused), they aren't gulping for
>air (the mollies did some but stopped when I got them out of there quickly),
>they're not hiding... they just swim around at the top through plants and
>chasing each other, or playing in the water from the power filter. They do
>not have clamped fins or stay in one place for a long time (unless
>sleeping). If this isn't typical, I don't know what is. :( So I'm very
>confused because they are very fine but the ammonia is very high.
>
>My water is very clear. It went through a cloudy spell last week (right
>after a water change) but that has since passed. I'm completely at a loss.
>
>~Elizabeth
>
I am not a fan of "better living through chemistry" and a big fan of
"if it ain't broke don't fix it!" I don't trust myself with chemicals
nor trust over the counter test kits. I trust my fish. One time I
saw all my fish crowded in a corner of my 75 gallon tank, believe me
that is a scary sight. Their eyes were red and a couple had already
died. I had just added chemical to adjust Ph, so I ran a quick Ph
test and sure enough it was radically acid. I got the Python out and
started changing water fast. I saved most of the fish. It took weeks
for some symptoms clear up.

I have never had a "real" problem that didn't show up in my fish's
behavior. I look first thing in the morning to see if anything looks
out of place. It is reassuring to see them all rush to the front of
the tank. If I see a laggard, it gets special attention. Of course
one must make exceptions for Clown Loaches. They seem to specialize
in "playing dead!"

From what you have written so far, I would trust your tank is ok and
the measurements wrong. To be sure take a sample to your LFS and see
what they say. Be careful, don't fix what is working.

>
>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 13 May 2004 19:57:57 -0500, "Elizabeth Armstrong"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >I'm a bad fish owner. But I'm trying. Here's the deal:
>> >
>> >A couple weeks ago I wrote in saying that I couldn't get ammonia under
>> >control. That's still the case, but the ammonia's even higher.
>> >
>> >I brought in my spiffy pink 2 gallon tank (UGF) from when I was 7 and
>> >plopped my two mollies and betta in there to save them from the ammonia
>zoo
>> >that is my 10 gallon tank. My 10 gallon tank still has 4 platys in there.
>> >The little pink thing is still chugging and I've been water changing it,
>> >etc. It's not as much the problem (test result - wise) except my two
>mollies
>> >that were in there died. My stupidity killed one (please don't ask... I'm
>> >too embarrassed and feel absolutely awful) and the other died without my
>> >help. The betta's still happy there, it's cycling ... or so I hope.
>> >Ammonia's at 1.0, no nitrite/nitrate, pH is 7.8.
>> >
>> >My 10 gallon has a UGF that quit on me because the airstones got choked
>up
>> >and I lack the opportunity to get it new ones until Saturday. Before that
>> >was rendered useless (the pump is now driving the 2 gallon UGF) I got a
>> >power filter (Whisper Jr) that has been going but I'm not so convinced
>it's
>> >working correctly because...
>> >
>> >Ammonia's still *way* high (like past deadly high... I feel absolutely
>awful
>> >high... like 6.0), no nitrate/nitrite, pH is 7.8. I've been Ammo-Lock-ing
>it
>> >every other day but have seen no difference and have been doing 20-30%
>> >change every other day (just did it yesterday, ammonia's still insane).
>The
>> >platys are still in there, happy as they ever were as is the Amazon Sword
>> >plant they nibble on occassionally. I've also drastically reduced their
>food
>> >(one to two flakes a day for the four of them... crumbled smaller). I
>know I
>> >need to get the fish in there down to like 1 (or 0 at this point), but
>> >shouldn't something have improved?
>> >
>> >Unfortunately I can't even move some of platys to the pink tank
>temporarily
>> >while the 10 gallon gets figured out because my betta just got pretty
>> >territorial and wants no visitors.
>> >
>> >I finally go home on Saturday (at college now - incidently I can't see
>> >replies after then except email), so I have a few options. My mom has a
>> >10-year established 30 gallon community tank that I can put the platys in
>> >(minus the salt they have going). I don't know what her levels are at,
>but I
>> >can test them. I also have a 6 gallon Eclipse tank that I bought and
>haven't
>> >set up yet that I can put them in. Either way, what do I do with the 10
>> >gallon when the platys are out? Should I leave a platy in? Should I scrap
>> >and start over? What's wrong with my fish that they're not outwardly
>> >bothered by the ammonia level? What's going on with the Ammo-Lock? I'm
>going
>> >to have to take out a *lot* of the water to move it (right now I'm under
>the
>> >idea that I want to leave some in to keep the cycle going and for the
>plant
>> >instead of uprooting it).
>> >
>> >Help!
>> >
>> >Thanks everyone... I really appreciate the advice you keep giving me (and
>> >everyone else's I read).
>> >
>> >~Elizabeth
>> >
>>
>> I am struck by a lack of symptoms. You talk about measurements. Are
>> your fish having any problems or are you just trying to prevent a
>> problem. For instance, cycling normally involves a milky look to the
>> water. Is your water milky or clear?
>>
>> Are your fish gulping air by staying at the top?
>>
>> Are your fish eating, are they hiding. There are so many ways fish
>> and plant behavior tell us things. I have trouble with these numbers
>> approaches. I don't trust my use nor do I feel able to translate the
>> numbers into good and bad, then I know all test kits are not the same.
>>
>> I have had more problems fooling around with chemicals than I have had
>> by sticking with regular water changes. Unless you have bad local
>> water, I would forget the chemicals.
>>
>> Don't fix it if it ain't broke.
>

[NetMax]

"Elizabeth Armstrong" > wrote in message
...
> I'm a bad fish owner. But I'm trying. Here's the deal:
>
> A couple weeks ago I wrote in saying that I couldn't get ammonia under
> control. That's still the case, but the ammonia's even higher.
>
> I brought in my spiffy pink 2 gallon tank (UGF) from when I was 7 and
> plopped my two mollies and betta in there to save them from the ammonia
zoo
> that is my 10 gallon tank. My 10 gallon tank still has 4 platys in
there.
> The little pink thing is still chugging and I've been water changing
it,
> etc. It's not as much the problem (test result - wise) except my two
mollies
> that were in there died. My stupidity killed one (please don't ask...
I'm
> too embarrassed and feel absolutely awful) and the other died without
my
> help. The betta's still happy there, it's cycling ... or so I hope.
> Ammonia's at 1.0, no nitrite/nitrate, pH is 7.8.
>
> My 10 gallon has a UGF that quit on me because the airstones got choked
up
> and I lack the opportunity to get it new ones until Saturday. Before
that
> was rendered useless (the pump is now driving the 2 gallon UGF) I got a
> power filter (Whisper Jr) that has been going but I'm not so convinced
it's
> working correctly because...
>
> Ammonia's still *way* high (like past deadly high... I feel absolutely
awful
> high... like 6.0), no nitrate/nitrite, pH is 7.8. I've been
Ammo-Lock-ing it
> every other day but have seen no difference and have been doing 20-30%
> change every other day (just did it yesterday, ammonia's still insane).
The
> platys are still in there, happy as they ever were as is the Amazon
Sword
> plant they nibble on occassionally. I've also drastically reduced their
food
> (one to two flakes a day for the four of them... crumbled smaller). I
know I
> need to get the fish in there down to like 1 (or 0 at this point), but
> shouldn't something have improved?
>
> Unfortunately I can't even move some of platys to the pink tank
temporarily
> while the 10 gallon gets figured out because my betta just got pretty
> territorial and wants no visitors.
>
> I finally go home on Saturday (at college now - incidently I can't see
> replies after then except email), so I have a few options. My mom has a
> 10-year established 30 gallon community tank that I can put the platys
in
> (minus the salt they have going). I don't know what her levels are at,
but I
> can test them. I also have a 6 gallon Eclipse tank that I bought and
haven't
> set up yet that I can put them in. Either way, what do I do with the 10
> gallon when the platys are out? Should I leave a platy in? Should I
scrap
> and start over? What's wrong with my fish that they're not outwardly
> bothered by the ammonia level? What's going on with the Ammo-Lock? I'm
going
> to have to take out a *lot* of the water to move it (right now I'm
under the
> idea that I want to leave some in to keep the cycle going and for the
plant
> instead of uprooting it).
>
> Help!
>
> Thanks everyone... I really appreciate the advice you keep giving me
(and
> everyone else's I read).
>
> ~Elizabeth


The tank is cycling. Stay your course and do lots of water changes,
adding Ammo-lock each time. The ammonia level measurements are not going
to harm your fish. The Ammo-lock has the toxic NH3 locked down to a
non-toxic NH4 state. Your test kit is adding both together, so you don't
have any indication of the ratio. Some test kits will only measure NH3,
and that would/should come up zero.

There isn't supposed to be any significant amount of bacteria in the
water column. Your filter media will get slimy (bio-film). Don't
overclean it (that's your good bacteria). Do NOT try to change your pH!!
Do not add more stressors. Frequent water changes at the same
temperature, de-chlor, Ammo-lock and patience.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[N.Thurlow]

Sorry to butt in on this convers. I run a tropical fish shop in the UK and
absolutely REFUSE to sell ammo-lock. It doesn't let your tank cycle at all.
It keeps it at a permanent ammonia state.

What happens is that although ammo-lock says it converts to a non toxic form
of ammonia, what it does is lock the ammonia up to such an extent that the
beneficial bacteria in the tank cant feed properly on it. It takes months
to get this damn stuff out of you tank.

We test every product before we will sell it and ammo-lock failed miserably.
two 10g tanks with one fish in was set up as a test, one of them we used
ammo-lock and not on the other one. It took around 2 weeks to cycle the non
locked tank and over a month to cycle the one with ammo-lock (only after we
stopped using it and did a 50% water change)

Conclusion. Ammo-lock will lock up the ammonia in a hospital tank etc
great, but will delay any attempts to cycle your tank. Use only in a tank
you dont need to cycle or for short term holding tank.

>>The betta's still happy there, it's cycling ... or so I hope.
> > Ammonia's at 1.0, no nitrite/nitrate, pH is 7.8.

Ammonia's still *way* high (like past deadly high... I feel absolutely
> awful
> > high... like 6.0), no nitrate/nitrite, pH is 7.8. I've been
> Ammo-Lock-ing it
> > every other day but have seen no difference and have been doing 20-30%
> > change every other day (just did it yesterday, ammonia's still insane).


This tank isnt cycling at all. No nitrite reading means that there is no
bacteria converting ammonia into nitrite. Nothing for them to feed on,
although your test is showing an ammonia reading its actually ammonium and
will not kick start the bacteria at all. Your Ammonia level will keep
rising and will never drop

STOP using the ammo-lock and do 50% water changes every day if you have fish
in there. If not then leave it alone or get a small lump of beefheart, put
it in a net and suspend in the tank for a week. This will kick start the
cycle, when you take it out your ammonia and nitrite levels will be high,
but will fall within a few days. You will have grown all the bacteria you
will ever need in there.


We found that using cycle at daily doses for a week does it a lot faster and
does not compromise your tank bacteria.

Regards
Nicola
Aqua Area


"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Elizabeth Armstrong" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm a bad fish owner. But I'm trying. Here's the deal:
> >
> > A couple weeks ago I wrote in saying that I couldn't get ammonia under
> > control. That's still the case, but the ammonia's even higher.
> >
> > I brought in my spiffy pink 2 gallon tank (UGF) from when I was 7 and
> > plopped my two mollies and betta in there to save them from the ammonia
> zoo
> > that is my 10 gallon tank. My 10 gallon tank still has 4 platys in
> there.
> > The little pink thing is still chugging and I've been water changing
> it,
> > etc. It's not as much the problem (test result - wise) except my two
> mollies
> > that were in there died. My stupidity killed one (please don't ask...
> I'm
> > too embarrassed and feel absolutely awful) and the other died without
> my
> > help. The betta's still happy there, it's cycling ... or so I hope.
> > Ammonia's at 1.0, no nitrite/nitrate, pH is 7.8.
> >
> > My 10 gallon has a UGF that quit on me because the airstones got choked
> up
> > and I lack the opportunity to get it new ones until Saturday. Before
> that
> > was rendered useless (the pump is now driving the 2 gallon UGF) I got a
> > power filter (Whisper Jr) that has been going but I'm not so convinced
> it's
> > working correctly because...
> >
> > Ammonia's still *way* high (like past deadly high... I feel absolutely
> awful
> > high... like 6.0), no nitrate/nitrite, pH is 7.8. I've been
> Ammo-Lock-ing it
> > every other day but have seen no difference and have been doing 20-30%
> > change every other day (just did it yesterday, ammonia's still insane).
> The
> > platys are still in there, happy as they ever were as is the Amazon
> Sword
> > plant they nibble on occassionally. I've also drastically reduced their
> food
> > (one to two flakes a day for the four of them... crumbled smaller). I
> know I
> > need to get the fish in there down to like 1 (or 0 at this point), but
> > shouldn't something have improved?
> >
> > Unfortunately I can't even move some of platys to the pink tank
> temporarily
> > while the 10 gallon gets figured out because my betta just got pretty
> > territorial and wants no visitors.
> >
> > I finally go home on Saturday (at college now - incidently I can't see
> > replies after then except email), so I have a few options. My mom has a
> > 10-year established 30 gallon community tank that I can put the platys
> in
> > (minus the salt they have going). I don't know what her levels are at,
> but I
> > can test them. I also have a 6 gallon Eclipse tank that I bought and
> haven't
> > set up yet that I can put them in. Either way, what do I do with the 10
> > gallon when the platys are out? Should I leave a platy in? Should I
> scrap
> > and start over? What's wrong with my fish that they're not outwardly
> > bothered by the ammonia level? What's going on with the Ammo-Lock? I'm
> going
> > to have to take out a *lot* of the water to move it (right now I'm
> under the
> > idea that I want to leave some in to keep the cycle going and for the
> plant
> > instead of uprooting it).
> >
> > Help!
> >
> > Thanks everyone... I really appreciate the advice you keep giving me
> (and
> > everyone else's I read).
> >
> > ~Elizabeth
>
>
> The tank is cycling. Stay your course and do lots of water changes,
> adding Ammo-lock each time. The ammonia level measurements are not going
> to harm your fish. The Ammo-lock has the toxic NH3 locked down to a
> non-toxic NH4 state. Your test kit is adding both together, so you don't
> have any indication of the ratio. Some test kits will only measure NH3,
> and that would/should come up zero.
>
> There isn't supposed to be any significant amount of bacteria in the
> water column. Your filter media will get slimy (bio-film). Don't
> overclean it (that's your good bacteria). Do NOT try to change your pH!!
> Do not add more stressors. Frequent water changes at the same
> temperature, de-chlor, Ammo-lock and patience.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>

[NetMax]

Hi Nicola, always feel free to jump in with information :o). My
understanding was that Ammo-Lock forces the NH3 to NH4, and that ammonium
ions are equally consumed by the nitrosomonas bacteria. Their web site's
only claims that it protected gill cells from ammonia damage. I've just
sent an inquiry to the manufacturer and if I'm not satisfied by the
response, I'll put another inquiry through my rep.

Fortunately, I sell very little Ammo-Lock (I keep it behind my counter),
but one of the instances where it's useful is to control ammonia levels
in situations where the biological filter has been damaged (ie: power
failures and OTS). From your observations, it has a negative side effect
on re-establishing the bacterial balance. The other instance where it's
useful is with new fish deliveries. After opening the bags, a couple of
drops will save the fish from gill damage as the pH rises from the bag
losing its accumulated CO2.

I'll post their responses as I get them.
cheers
--
www.NetMax.tk

"N.Thurlow" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry to butt in on this convers. I run a tropical fish shop in the UK
and
> absolutely REFUSE to sell ammo-lock. It doesn't let your tank cycle at
all.
> It keeps it at a permanent ammonia state.
>
> What happens is that although ammo-lock says it converts to a non toxic
form
> of ammonia, what it does is lock the ammonia up to such an extent that
the
> beneficial bacteria in the tank cant feed properly on it. It takes
months
> to get this damn stuff out of you tank.
>
> We test every product before we will sell it and ammo-lock failed
miserably.
> two 10g tanks with one fish in was set up as a test, one of them we
used
> ammo-lock and not on the other one. It took around 2 weeks to cycle
the non
> locked tank and over a month to cycle the one with ammo-lock (only
after we
> stopped using it and did a 50% water change)
>
> Conclusion. Ammo-lock will lock up the ammonia in a hospital tank etc
> great, but will delay any attempts to cycle your tank. Use only in a
tank
> you dont need to cycle or for short term holding tank.
>
> >>The betta's still happy there, it's cycling ... or so I hope.
> > > Ammonia's at 1.0, no nitrite/nitrate, pH is 7.8.
>
> Ammonia's still *way* high (like past deadly high... I feel absolutely
> > awful
> > > high... like 6.0), no nitrate/nitrite, pH is 7.8. I've been
> > Ammo-Lock-ing it
> > > every other day but have seen no difference and have been doing
20-30%
> > > change every other day (just did it yesterday, ammonia's still
insane).
>
>
> This tank isnt cycling at all. No nitrite reading means that there is
no
> bacteria converting ammonia into nitrite. Nothing for them to feed on,
> although your test is showing an ammonia reading its actually ammonium
and
> will not kick start the bacteria at all. Your Ammonia level will keep
> rising and will never drop
>
> STOP using the ammo-lock and do 50% water changes every day if you have
fish
> in there. If not then leave it alone or get a small lump of beefheart,
put
> it in a net and suspend in the tank for a week. This will kick start
the
> cycle, when you take it out your ammonia and nitrite levels will be
high,
> but will fall within a few days. You will have grown all the bacteria
you
> will ever need in there.
>
>
> We found that using cycle at daily doses for a week does it a lot
faster and
> does not compromise your tank bacteria.
>
> Regards
> Nicola
> Aqua Area

<snip>

[Charles]

On Mon, 17 May 2004 20:36:23 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>Hi Nicola, always feel free to jump in with information :o). My
>understanding was that Ammo-Lock forces the NH3 to NH4, and that ammonium
>ions are equally consumed by the nitrosomonas bacteria. Their web site's
>only claims that it protected gill cells from ammonia damage. I've just
>sent an inquiry to the manufacturer and if I'm not satisfied by the
>response, I'll put another inquiry through my rep.
>
>Fortunately, I sell very little Ammo-Lock (I keep it behind my counter),
>but one of the instances where it's useful is to control ammonia levels
>in situations where the biological filter has been damaged (ie: power
>failures and OTS). From your observations, it has a negative side effect
>on re-establishing the bacterial balance. The other instance where it's
>useful is with new fish deliveries. After opening the bags, a couple of
>drops will save the fish from gill damage as the pH rises from the bag
>losing its accumulated CO2.
>
>I'll post their responses as I get them.
>cheers


I hope you post about amquel as well, I've heard various things about
it.

Or maybe you have and I missed it?


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[Dinky]

I've been using Amquel and amquel+ for years, and have never had any
trouble cycling-wise. I did, at one point belive that it hindered the
cycle, but it does not IME seem to be the case.

--

billy
--
Need tech help?
http://www.winextra.com
news://news.winextra.com

| I hope you post about amquel as well, I've heard various things
about
| it.
|

[N.Thurlow]

I agree on the instance where it works on deliveries, I tend to use stress
coat though as it seems to lessen sliming and clamping more. The only
instance where I would never use it is in cycling a tank. I'll retest it on
a cycle process we use in our shop and let you know the results. One of my
reps refuses to sell it either, as well as one of my suppliers. They have
tested it since I sent them my results and took it off the stock lists
permanently. Basically it does not do what it says on the bottle. If you
note it also says to use as a weekly / monthly maintenance with a note that
your ammonia test kit will not work for seven days. Also to do a water
change before testing with ammonia kit. It is designed to make your tank
not cycle so that you have to purchase ammo-lock on a continuous basis to
keep the ammonia locked away from the fish, consiquently also locked away
from your bacteria.

Note how Elizabeths tank has been 'cycling' for a while and STILL no nitrite
reading, its just not cycling at all and is locked into an ammonia spike.
No nitrifying bacteria is present there at all, all the bacteria she is
putting in there is dying off through lack of food source, with an ammonia
reading of 6 there should be at least some nitrite reading there within a
day or two.

What we do to 'quick start' a tank is to put a small lump of beefheart in a
stocking and drop it into the tank for a week, put in some cycle and leave.
The beefheart rotting in the tank is a substitute for fully stocking the
tank due to the high protein level of the beefheart. The ammonia goes sky
high overnight and nitrite kicks in the next day already.

After a week take out the beefheart bag (it will absolutely stink and tank
will cloud over for a day) and put in some more cycle. About three days
later the tank is fully cycled to a high stock level and ready to go. Quick
water change to reduce nitrates might be needed. Total cycle time around
ten days

We do use this on tanks where people dont have a clue about the nitrogen
cycle so as to save them experimenting on fish, it also works great to give
a discus tank a serious bio load capacity.

Give it a test and let me know what you think.

Regards
Nicola
Aqua Area




"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> Hi Nicola, always feel free to jump in with information :o). My
> understanding was that Ammo-Lock forces the NH3 to NH4, and that ammonium
> ions are equally consumed by the nitrosomonas bacteria. Their web site's
> only claims that it protected gill cells from ammonia damage. I've just
> sent an inquiry to the manufacturer and if I'm not satisfied by the
> response, I'll put another inquiry through my rep.
>
> Fortunately, I sell very little Ammo-Lock (I keep it behind my counter),
> but one of the instances where it's useful is to control ammonia levels
> in situations where the biological filter has been damaged (ie: power
> failures and OTS). From your observations, it has a negative side effect
> on re-establishing the bacterial balance. The other instance where it's
> useful is with new fish deliveries. After opening the bags, a couple of
> drops will save the fish from gill damage as the pH rises from the bag
> losing its accumulated CO2.
>
> I'll post their responses as I get them.
> cheers
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
> "N.Thurlow" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Sorry to butt in on this convers. I run a tropical fish shop in the UK
> and
> > absolutely REFUSE to sell ammo-lock. It doesn't let your tank cycle at
> all.
> > It keeps it at a permanent ammonia state.
> >
> > What happens is that although ammo-lock says it converts to a non toxic
> form
> > of ammonia, what it does is lock the ammonia up to such an extent that
> the
> > beneficial bacteria in the tank cant feed properly on it. It takes
> months
> > to get this damn stuff out of you tank.
> >
> > We test every product before we will sell it and ammo-lock failed
> miserably.
> > two 10g tanks with one fish in was set up as a test, one of them we
> used
> > ammo-lock and not on the other one. It took around 2 weeks to cycle
> the non
> > locked tank and over a month to cycle the one with ammo-lock (only
> after we
> > stopped using it and did a 50% water change)
> >
> > Conclusion. Ammo-lock will lock up the ammonia in a hospital tank etc
> > great, but will delay any attempts to cycle your tank. Use only in a
> tank
> > you dont need to cycle or for short term holding tank.
> >
> > >>The betta's still happy there, it's cycling ... or so I hope.
> > > > Ammonia's at 1.0, no nitrite/nitrate, pH is 7.8.
> >
> > Ammonia's still *way* high (like past deadly high... I feel absolutely
> > > awful
> > > > high... like 6.0), no nitrate/nitrite, pH is 7.8. I've been
> > > Ammo-Lock-ing it
> > > > every other day but have seen no difference and have been doing
> 20-30%
> > > > change every other day (just did it yesterday, ammonia's still
> insane).
> >
> >
> > This tank isnt cycling at all. No nitrite reading means that there is
> no
> > bacteria converting ammonia into nitrite. Nothing for them to feed on,
> > although your test is showing an ammonia reading its actually ammonium
> and
> > will not kick start the bacteria at all. Your Ammonia level will keep
> > rising and will never drop
> >
> > STOP using the ammo-lock and do 50% water changes every day if you have
> fish
> > in there. If not then leave it alone or get a small lump of beefheart,
> put
> > it in a net and suspend in the tank for a week. This will kick start
> the
> > cycle, when you take it out your ammonia and nitrite levels will be
> high,
> > but will fall within a few days. You will have grown all the bacteria
> you
> > will ever need in there.
> >
> >
> > We found that using cycle at daily doses for a week does it a lot
> faster and
> > does not compromise your tank bacteria.
> >
> > Regards
> > Nicola
> > Aqua Area
>
> <snip>
>
>

[NetMax]

> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Hi Nicola, always feel free to jump in with information :o). My
> > understanding was that Ammo-Lock forces the NH3 to NH4, and that
ammonium
> > ions are equally consumed by the nitrosomonas bacteria. Their web
site's
> > only claims that it protected gill cells from ammonia damage. I've
just
> > sent an inquiry to the manufacturer and if I'm not satisfied by the
> > response, I'll put another inquiry through my rep.
<snip>
> >
> > I'll post their responses as I get them.
> > cheers

> > <snip>

Their reply was a very brief "Ammo-lock does not affect the biological
cycle". I think I'll poke them & my rep for more detailed information.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[N.Thurlow]

Didnt think you would get a detailed reply. They covering their arses

Nicola


"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > . ..
> > > Hi Nicola, always feel free to jump in with information :o). My
> > > understanding was that Ammo-Lock forces the NH3 to NH4, and that
> ammonium
> > > ions are equally consumed by the nitrosomonas bacteria. Their web
> site's
> > > only claims that it protected gill cells from ammonia damage. I've
> just
> > > sent an inquiry to the manufacturer and if I'm not satisfied by the
> > > response, I'll put another inquiry through my rep.
> <snip>
> > >
> > > I'll post their responses as I get them.
> > > cheers
>
> > > <snip>
>
> Their reply was a very brief "Ammo-lock does not affect the biological
> cycle". I think I'll poke them & my rep for more detailed information.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>