Betta Health Problem

[Dan White]

Hi. I haven't visited here in awhile, but need a little help, if I may ask.
I've browsed the newsgroup and other website history concerning my problem,
but need to post a question or two.

Our betta is recently showing some signs that something isn't right. The
main symptom is that he seems to be swimming with some difficulty. He kind
of loses his balance when he isn't moving forward. Every time he stops
swimming, he kind of floats like a balloon until he moves forward again.
When he's still, his head will tend to go up, and his tail end down. He
goes up for air and to do a lap or so, but then swims back down into the
plants and sits there tangled up in the java moss. He does flare at his
reflection on occasion but he definitely isn't right.

After looking online for answers, it seems he could be having a swim bladder
problem. We have been feeding Bio Gold pellets, and more recently the Top
Fin variety, which seem to sink more easily. Anyway, I suspect we've been
feeding him more than he should be getting, but still within the
recommendations on the bottle. His stomach does look fat, although not
distorted like a marble, just big. Actually the whole fish is pretty big
compared to when we got him. Thinking he might be constipated, I added
about 1 tsp of epsom salts to the water, and stopped feeding him last night.
I haven't seen any stool, but then I've never really seen him go. Anyway,
that about covers where I'm at with trying to treat the fish.

I'm also wondering whether he might have a bladder infection that should be
treated. I didn't want to feed anything that might do more harm than good
without knowing more. Is it a good idea to feed him something like this
just in case? Also, I thought I'd try a pea to see if that helps.

As far as fish vitals, here's what I can say:

The betta is about 2 years old, hopefully not looking at just an old fish on
his way out just yet. He lives in an Eclipse 5 gallon tank, heated, with
live plants, fully cycled. Water parameters are all normal, temp is 80 F,
but can get as high as 85 when it is warm in the room. I don't change water
often, but I did recently just in case there is an issue there. I treat
with Amquel+ with water changes. There are no other fish in the tank, just
some snails. I do not see any evidence of disease -- his skin and gills
seem normal. He gets somewhere between 12 and 15 hours/day of light.

Any (quick!) advice would be appreciated,

thanks,
dwhite

[carlrs]

Dan White wrote:
> Hi. I haven't visited here in awhile, but need a little help, if I may ask.
> I've browsed the newsgroup and other website history concerning my problem,
> but need to post a question or two.
>
> Our betta is recently showing some signs that something isn't right. The
> main symptom is that he seems to be swimming with some difficulty. He kind
> of loses his balance when he isn't moving forward. Every time he stops
> swimming, he kind of floats like a balloon until he moves forward again.
> When he's still, his head will tend to go up, and his tail end down. He
> goes up for air and to do a lap or so, but then swims back down into the
> plants and sits there tangled up in the java moss. He does flare at his
> reflection on occasion but he definitely isn't right.
>
> After looking online for answers, it seems he could be having a swim bladder
> problem. We have been feeding Bio Gold pellets, and more recently the Top
> Fin variety, which seem to sink more easily. Anyway, I suspect we've been
> feeding him more than he should be getting, but still within the
> recommendations on the bottle. His stomach does look fat, although not
> distorted like a marble, just big. Actually the whole fish is pretty big
> compared to when we got him. Thinking he might be constipated, I added
> about 1 tsp of epsom salts to the water, and stopped feeding him last night.
> I haven't seen any stool, but then I've never really seen him go. Anyway,
> that about covers where I'm at with trying to treat the fish.
>
> I'm also wondering whether he might have a bladder infection that should be
> treated. I didn't want to feed anything that might do more harm than good
> without knowing more. Is it a good idea to feed him something like this
> just in case? Also, I thought I'd try a pea to see if that helps.
>
> As far as fish vitals, here's what I can say:
>
> The betta is about 2 years old, hopefully not looking at just an old fish on
> his way out just yet. He lives in an Eclipse 5 gallon tank, heated, with
> live plants, fully cycled. Water parameters are all normal, temp is 80 F,
> but can get as high as 85 when it is warm in the room. I don't change water
> often, but I did recently just in case there is an issue there. I treat
> with Amquel+ with water changes. There are no other fish in the tank, just
> some snails. I do not see any evidence of disease -- his skin and gills
> seem normal. He gets somewhere between 12 and 15 hours/day of light.
>
> Any (quick!) advice would be appreciated,
>
> thanks,
> dwhite

It seems like you give your Betta very good care on all counts!

A couple points;
Even though bio gold is an excellent food, I recommend soaking this or
any dry food for bettas in water to prevent air ingestion that help
with intestinal infections (such as aeromonas).

Check your kH, I recommend 80 ppm mostly as a check of calcium, which
is essential.
All electrolytes are important for proper osmotic function. An addition
of salt (sodium chloride) may help as an additional electrolyte (about
1 teaspoon for your tank). The Epsom salts you already added will add
magnesium which is an important trace element, but be careful with too
much Epsom salt, a little goes a long way and as I stated earlier,
magnesium is a TRACE element.

Your fish is old in beta years (depending how old your fish was when
you acquired him), so may be a factor here.
A couple of medicine options:
Neomycin; neomycin is not absorbed by the intestinal tract and is
effective in treatment of diseases thereof. But Neomycin can damage the
kidneys as it is nephrotoxic, so this is a poor treatment choice for
Dropsy or similar diseases. Neomycin is very effective when used in
feeding again due to the fact that this antibiotic does not get
absorbed. This is my preferred way to treat with this antibiotic.

A bath in methylene blue for 30 minutes, I use methylene blue in a bath
where I add methylene blue at double the recommended dose for in tank
treatment (as per manufactures instructions) to a bath of about 16 oz.
of used tank water. Throw this water out when you are done (do not pour
this water back into the tank).

Carl
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Information.html

[Dan White]

"carlrs" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> Check your kH, I recommend 80 ppm mostly as a check of calcium, which
> is essential.

kH is a little low, but not bad. I have a color measurement for kH, so it
is a little subjective.

>
> Your fish is old in beta years (depending how old your fish was when
> you acquired him), so may be a factor here.

I assume he was about 6 months old when I got him. I'm going to call the
fish store and doublecheck. He definitely wasn't full grown back then.
Does fish age depend on the variety of betta? I'm hearing everything from 2
years to 5 years for lifespan of these fish so I don't understand. If he's
only 2 years in a tank with live plants, constant temperatures, and general
decent care, it makes me think we've fed him wrong.

> A couple of medicine options:
> Neomycin; neomycin is not absorbed by the intestinal tract and is
> effective in treatment of diseases thereof. But Neomycin can damage the
> kidneys as it is nephrotoxic, so this is a poor treatment choice for
> Dropsy or similar diseases. Neomycin is very effective when used in
> feeding again due to the fact that this antibiotic does not get
> absorbed. This is my preferred way to treat with this antibiotic.
>
> A bath in methylene blue for 30 minutes, I use methylene blue in a bath
> where I add methylene blue at double the recommended dose for in tank
> treatment (as per manufactures instructions) to a bath of about 16 oz.
> of used tank water. Throw this water out when you are done (do not pour
> this water back into the tank).
>

Is methylene blue useful for ridding a fish of disease, or is it a kind of
general fixer upper for things like constipation as well?

Thanks a lot for your suggestions. Oh, I should note that he did not have
much interest in eating bits of pea. He did take a pretty big piece, but
then spit it out about 30 seconds later. I don't know about his general
appetite as I haven't fed him for coming up on 2 days now. I don't know how
long to go without feeding. He's quite plump looking and I don't know if it
is some kind of internal infection, or constipation. I don't have anything
to put him in to see his stool, so maybe I need to pick up something for
that.

OK thanks again,
dwhite

[carlrs]

Dan White wrote:
> "carlrs" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> >
> > Check your kH, I recommend 80 ppm mostly as a check of calcium, which
> > is essential.
>
> kH is a little low, but not bad. I have a color measurement for kH, so it
> is a little subjective.
>
> >
> > Your fish is old in beta years (depending how old your fish was when
> > you acquired him), so may be a factor here.
>
> I assume he was about 6 months old when I got him. I'm going to call the
> fish store and doublecheck. He definitely wasn't full grown back then.
> Does fish age depend on the variety of betta? I'm hearing everything from 2
> years to 5 years for lifespan of these fish so I don't understand. If he's
> only 2 years in a tank with live plants, constant temperatures, and general
> decent care, it makes me think we've fed him wrong.
>
> > A couple of medicine options:
> > Neomycin; neomycin is not absorbed by the intestinal tract and is
> > effective in treatment of diseases thereof. But Neomycin can damage the
> > kidneys as it is nephrotoxic, so this is a poor treatment choice for
> > Dropsy or similar diseases. Neomycin is very effective when used in
> > feeding again due to the fact that this antibiotic does not get
> > absorbed. This is my preferred way to treat with this antibiotic.
> >
> > A bath in methylene blue for 30 minutes, I use methylene blue in a bath
> > where I add methylene blue at double the recommended dose for in tank
> > treatment (as per manufactures instructions) to a bath of about 16 oz.
> > of used tank water. Throw this water out when you are done (do not pour
> > this water back into the tank).
> >
>
> Is methylene blue useful for ridding a fish of disease, or is it a kind of
> general fixer upper for things like constipation as well?
>
> Thanks a lot for your suggestions. Oh, I should note that he did not have
> much interest in eating bits of pea. He did take a pretty big piece, but
> then spit it out about 30 seconds later. I don't know about his general
> appetite as I haven't fed him for coming up on 2 days now. I don't know how
> long to go without feeding. He's quite plump looking and I don't know if it
> is some kind of internal infection, or constipation. I don't have anything
> to put him in to see his stool, so maybe I need to pick up something for
> that.
>
> OK thanks again,
> dwhite

The lifespan for bettas is rather subjective (maybe others can give
their thoughts as to Betta life spans). My experience has been 2-4
years with bettas in my care, but I have heard claims of 5 years.
But as a generalization, I consider 2-3 years common. I also have seen
differences in different strains of Betta.
I would consider your care to be good (maybe more regular water
changes), so if age is a factor I do not think it is from poor care.

As to your feeding, you can try bloodworms, or better, Brine Shrimp for
use as a natural laxative. Again soak all dry foods prior to feeding.

Methylene Blue is not a magic bullet, it is an effective topical
treatment for fungus, some bacterial pathogens, some parasites, low
oxygen levels and gill damage especially form ammonia poisoning. But
it will generally not help for internal digestive problems if that is
your Betas only problem.
The Neomycin (such as the Gel Tek Neomycin in a food encapsulated form)
would be a good start if all water parameters are good.
Regular water changes of 20-25% using a gravel vacuum are of coarse
good idea too.

[Dan White]

Let me ask one more thing: can methylene blue stress the fish? I mean he's
not "right" now, so he might die if I do nothing, but if it is something
digestive that methylene blue can't fix, then I'm concerned about using it.
I think I'll check around the net re this and neomycin. It seems this ng is
a bit slower than it used to be. Of course you seem to be knowledgeable.

Thanks again!
dwhite


"carlrs" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Dan White wrote:
> > "carlrs" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > Check your kH, I recommend 80 ppm mostly as a check of calcium, which
> > > is essential.
> >
> > kH is a little low, but not bad. I have a color measurement for kH, so
it
> > is a little subjective.
> >
> > >
> > > Your fish is old in beta years (depending how old your fish was when
> > > you acquired him), so may be a factor here.
> >
> > I assume he was about 6 months old when I got him. I'm going to call
the
> > fish store and doublecheck. He definitely wasn't full grown back then.
> > Does fish age depend on the variety of betta? I'm hearing everything
from 2
> > years to 5 years for lifespan of these fish so I don't understand. If
he's
> > only 2 years in a tank with live plants, constant temperatures, and
general
> > decent care, it makes me think we've fed him wrong.
> >
> > > A couple of medicine options:
> > > Neomycin; neomycin is not absorbed by the intestinal tract and is
> > > effective in treatment of diseases thereof. But Neomycin can damage
the
> > > kidneys as it is nephrotoxic, so this is a poor treatment choice for
> > > Dropsy or similar diseases. Neomycin is very effective when used in
> > > feeding again due to the fact that this antibiotic does not get
> > > absorbed. This is my preferred way to treat with this antibiotic.
> > >
> > > A bath in methylene blue for 30 minutes, I use methylene blue in a
bath
> > > where I add methylene blue at double the recommended dose for in tank
> > > treatment (as per manufactures instructions) to a bath of about 16 oz.
> > > of used tank water. Throw this water out when you are done (do not
pour
> > > this water back into the tank).
> > >
> >
> > Is methylene blue useful for ridding a fish of disease, or is it a kind
of
> > general fixer upper for things like constipation as well?
> >
> > Thanks a lot for your suggestions. Oh, I should note that he did not
have
> > much interest in eating bits of pea. He did take a pretty big piece,
but
> > then spit it out about 30 seconds later. I don't know about his general
> > appetite as I haven't fed him for coming up on 2 days now. I don't know
how
> > long to go without feeding. He's quite plump looking and I don't know
if it
> > is some kind of internal infection, or constipation. I don't have
anything
> > to put him in to see his stool, so maybe I need to pick up something for
> > that.
> >
> > OK thanks again,
> > dwhite
>
> The lifespan for bettas is rather subjective (maybe others can give
> their thoughts as to Betta life spans). My experience has been 2-4
> years with bettas in my care, but I have heard claims of 5 years.
> But as a generalization, I consider 2-3 years common. I also have seen
> differences in different strains of Betta.
> I would consider your care to be good (maybe more regular water
> changes), so if age is a factor I do not think it is from poor care.
>
> As to your feeding, you can try bloodworms, or better, Brine Shrimp for
> use as a natural laxative. Again soak all dry foods prior to feeding.
>
> Methylene Blue is not a magic bullet, it is an effective topical
> treatment for fungus, some bacterial pathogens, some parasites, low
> oxygen levels and gill damage especially form ammonia poisoning. But
> it will generally not help for internal digestive problems if that is
> your Betas only problem.
> The Neomycin (such as the Gel Tek Neomycin in a food encapsulated form)
> would be a good start if all water parameters are good.
> Regular water changes of 20-25% using a gravel vacuum are of coarse
> good idea too.
>

[carlrs]

Dan White wrote:
> Let me ask one more thing: can methylene blue stress the fish? I mean he's
> not "right" now, so he might die if I do nothing, but if it is something
> digestive that methylene blue can't fix, then I'm concerned about using it.
> I think I'll check around the net re this and neomycin. It seems this ng is
> a bit slower than it used to be. Of course you seem to be knowledgeable.
>
> Thanks again!
> dwhite
>
>
> "carlrs" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > Dan White wrote:
> > > "carlrs" > wrote in message
> > > oups.com...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Check your kH, I recommend 80 ppm mostly as a check of calcium, which
> > > > is essential.
> > >
> > > kH is a little low, but not bad. I have a color measurement for kH, so
> it
> > > is a little subjective.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Your fish is old in beta years (depending how old your fish was when
> > > > you acquired him), so may be a factor here.
> > >
> > > I assume he was about 6 months old when I got him. I'm going to call
> the
> > > fish store and doublecheck. He definitely wasn't full grown back then.
> > > Does fish age depend on the variety of betta? I'm hearing everything
> from 2
> > > years to 5 years for lifespan of these fish so I don't understand. If
> he's
> > > only 2 years in a tank with live plants, constant temperatures, and
> general
> > > decent care, it makes me think we've fed him wrong.
> > >
> > > > A couple of medicine options:
> > > > Neomycin; neomycin is not absorbed by the intestinal tract and is
> > > > effective in treatment of diseases thereof. But Neomycin can damage
> the
> > > > kidneys as it is nephrotoxic, so this is a poor treatment choice for
> > > > Dropsy or similar diseases. Neomycin is very effective when used in
> > > > feeding again due to the fact that this antibiotic does not get
> > > > absorbed. This is my preferred way to treat with this antibiotic.
> > > >
> > > > A bath in methylene blue for 30 minutes, I use methylene blue in a
> bath
> > > > where I add methylene blue at double the recommended dose for in tank
> > > > treatment (as per manufactures instructions) to a bath of about 16 oz.
> > > > of used tank water. Throw this water out when you are done (do not
> pour
> > > > this water back into the tank).
> > > >
> > >
> > > Is methylene blue useful for ridding a fish of disease, or is it a kind
> of
> > > general fixer upper for things like constipation as well?
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot for your suggestions. Oh, I should note that he did not
> have
> > > much interest in eating bits of pea. He did take a pretty big piece,
> but
> > > then spit it out about 30 seconds later. I don't know about his general
> > > appetite as I haven't fed him for coming up on 2 days now. I don't know
> how
> > > long to go without feeding. He's quite plump looking and I don't know
> if it
> > > is some kind of internal infection, or constipation. I don't have
> anything
> > > to put him in to see his stool, so maybe I need to pick up something for
> > > that.
> > >
> > > OK thanks again,
> > > dwhite
> >
> > The lifespan for bettas is rather subjective (maybe others can give
> > their thoughts as to Betta life spans). My experience has been 2-4
> > years with bettas in my care, but I have heard claims of 5 years.
> > But as a generalization, I consider 2-3 years common. I also have seen
> > differences in different strains of Betta.
> > I would consider your care to be good (maybe more regular water
> > changes), so if age is a factor I do not think it is from poor care.
> >
> > As to your feeding, you can try bloodworms, or better, Brine Shrimp for
> > use as a natural laxative. Again soak all dry foods prior to feeding.
> >
> > Methylene Blue is not a magic bullet, it is an effective topical
> > treatment for fungus, some bacterial pathogens, some parasites, low
> > oxygen levels and gill damage especially form ammonia poisoning. But
> > it will generally not help for internal digestive problems if that is
> > your Betas only problem.
> > The Neomycin (such as the Gel Tek Neomycin in a food encapsulated form)
> > would be a good start if all water parameters are good.
> > Regular water changes of 20-25% using a gravel vacuum are of coarse
> > good idea too.
> >

That is a good question!
This is generally not too stressful if you do not chase the fish around
with a net too much (the capture is generally the most stressful part).
But in case I did not make myself clear (which sometimes I do not), the
methylene blue bath was a suggestion based on lack of many symptoms,
for the one noted symptom (possible intestinal distress), and this may
or may not help. The Neomycin is a more likely cure here (Metronidazole
and Usnic Acid are useful for intestinal problems as well).

Good water conditions are VERY important, that is where small but
efficient water changes come in as well as water parameters such as
ammonia, nitrates, kH and even electrolytes (the salt and small amounts
of Epsom salts can help here as well as Wonder Shells which had calcium
and other trace elements).

Back to the methylene blue, I suggested this as a simple first step
treatment that MAY help, but I feel keeping your water parameters as
good as possible (with water changes and additional electrolytes) and
treatment with Neomycin is most important.
Here is a link for Gel Tek Neomycin:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Quickcure.html

Also try feeding some frozen or FD Brine shrimp as well as soaking all
dry food for 5 minutes prior to feeding.

Carl