Please help with a new tank set-up

[Robin]

Hi,

I am setting up a new tank and am totally overwhelmed by the
information I've learned through reading and research. I think I have
an idea of how to be successful but welcome any ideas and experienced
opinions about my plans.

I have 2 White Cloud Mountain Minnows and 2 snails in a little
Aquababies cube tank. (www.aquababies.com if you want to see what
those are). They were a gift, and I've had them for a year. The
literature included with the kit assured me that the set up was OK for
the fish. They've done well, but I now understand that they need a
lot more space and care than what they have. (Honestly, I've not
especially interested in fish keeping as a hobby and people I know
think it's a lot of trouble and expense to go through for two little
minnows. However, I feel that they're little living things in my
care and I'd like them to have a nice home and be happy.)

I bought an Eclipse Hex 5-gallon kit. (I know at least 10 gallons are
recommended, but, honestly I don't have the space nor the money) From
what I've read the White Clouds would be suited to survive in the
fluctuations of a smaller tank. It comes with a bio-wheel filter. I
don't think they need a heater. My home is climate controlled so
their water temperature will be stable and remain within 68 to 73
degrees. My tap water has a nearly neutral Ph (7.05ish) and a general
hardness of 8 degrees, and is OK for the species. I'm glad, since
they've been living in it all this time!

The fish love the little plant that came in their cube, but it's
dying. I have a 10w fluorescent bulb and plan on planting. I think a
Melon Sword and a Moneywort would be OK in my water and not too much
trouble? I don't mind supplementing and pruning but am not interested
in serious aquatic gardening.

I've read a lot about the nitrogen cycle and think (hope!) I grasp it.
I think I could either cycle the tank with water and gravel from
their cube, or, cycle it with the fish themselves. I'm leaning toward
using the fish, since taking some gravel out of the small cube might
stress the fish more than putting them through cycling. I'm confused
about the biological starters for sale – they seem to be too good to
be true, but the pet store people say they work. Would that be a
better route?

I've read that they should live in groups of six. I think six is too
many for a 5 gallon tank but it might be able to handle four after
it's cycled. Since one of the fish seems to be very aggressive I
thought that getting more fish would be good for them. Would four be
better than two for schooling fish? I think these two are males and I
really don't want to deal with fry, so, I'd like to get two more males
but am unsure if this would be a bad idea? Would it be a
biting-eachother-fest?

A lot of my reading warns against the use of snails because they
proliferate quickly. Mine seem to be sterile! (or maybe the fish are
eating the eggs?) I'm not sure what kind they are but I don't seem to
have any algae so they must be eating it. Are there any other reasons
to exclude snails from the tank?

Once everything is set up, I know I have to change the 25% of the
water and vacuum the gravel weekly, change the charcoal filter in the
every 2-4 weeks, and monitor the water values for signs of trouble.

I think I've covered everything (sorry this is so long) but I'm sure I
have a great deal to learn! Any suggestions or comments would be
welcome and very appreciated. I'm attached to my fish guys and really
don't want to kill them in the process of trying to help them!

Thanks!
Robin

[Adam Gottschalk]

In article >,
(Robin) wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am setting up a new tank and am totally overwhelmed by the
> information I've learned through reading and research. I think I have
> an idea of how to be successful but welcome any ideas and experienced
> opinions about my plans.
>
> I have 2 White Cloud Mountain Minnows and 2 snails in a little
> Aquababies cube tank. (www.aquababies.com if you want to see what
> those are). They were a gift, and I've had them for a year. The
> literature included with the kit assured me that the set up was OK for
> the fish. They've done well, but I now understand that they need a
> lot more space and care than what they have. (Honestly, I've not
> especially interested in fish keeping as a hobby and people I know
> think it's a lot of trouble and expense to go through for two little
> minnows. However, I feel that they're little living things in my
> care and I'd like them to have a nice home and be happy.)
>
> I bought an Eclipse Hex 5-gallon kit. (I know at least 10 gallons are
> recommended, but, honestly I don't have the space nor the money) From
> what I've read the White Clouds would be suited to survive in the
> fluctuations of a smaller tank. It comes with a bio-wheel filter. I
> don't think they need a heater. My home is climate controlled so
> their water temperature will be stable and remain within 68 to 73
> degrees. My tap water has a nearly neutral Ph (7.05ish) and a general
> hardness of 8 degrees, and is OK for the species. I'm glad, since
> they've been living in it all this time!
>
> The fish love the little plant that came in their cube, but it's
> dying. I have a 10w fluorescent bulb and plan on planting. I think a
> Melon Sword and a Moneywort would be OK in my water and not too much
> trouble? I don't mind supplementing and pruning but am not interested
> in serious aquatic gardening.
>
> I've read a lot about the nitrogen cycle and think (hope!) I grasp it.
> I think I could either cycle the tank with water and gravel from
> their cube, or, cycle it with the fish themselves. I'm leaning toward
> using the fish, since taking some gravel out of the small cube might
> stress the fish more than putting them through cycling. I'm confused
> about the biological starters for sale – they seem to be too good to
> be true, but the pet store people say they work. Would that be a
> better route?
>
> I've read that they should live in groups of six. I think six is too
> many for a 5 gallon tank but it might be able to handle four after
> it's cycled. Since one of the fish seems to be very aggressive I
> thought that getting more fish would be good for them. Would four be
> better than two for schooling fish? I think these two are males and I
> really don't want to deal with fry, so, I'd like to get two more males
> but am unsure if this would be a bad idea? Would it be a
> biting-eachother-fest?
>
> A lot of my reading warns against the use of snails because they
> proliferate quickly. Mine seem to be sterile! (or maybe the fish are
> eating the eggs?) I'm not sure what kind they are but I don't seem to
> have any algae so they must be eating it. Are there any other reasons
> to exclude snails from the tank?
>
> Once everything is set up, I know I have to change the 25% of the
> water and vacuum the gravel weekly, change the charcoal filter in the
> every 2-4 weeks, and monitor the water values for signs of trouble.
>
> I think I've covered everything (sorry this is so long) but I'm sure I
> have a great deal to learn! Any suggestions or comments would be
> welcome and very appreciated. I'm attached to my fish guys and really
> don't want to kill them in the process of trying to help them!
>
> Thanks!
> Robin

A few comments from a non-expert adult who's rekindled his childhood
love of aquaria:

1. I think you're overthinking the whole bit too much. I am guilty of
this same thing more times than I care to admit, but undoubtedly, as
people frequently tell me, you'll enjoy the hobby (which you say you're
not interested in...but your lengthy post belies a "secret" love of the
little lives a few feet from you...) more when you stop worrying about
it so much :-)

2. As with many "hobbies" involving small beings, more beings does not
necessarily mean much more work, trouble, expense, etc. Schooling fish
being social animals, likely it will be just as easy to keep six as to
keep two, given the right conditions.

3. Doing a 25% water change weekly with hard tap water goes a long, long
way toward keeping your fish happy and healthy. If your municipal water
is like mine, even goldfish eating and pooping for days and days won't
change its pH, etc., especially with weekly water changes.

4. And again, as with so many undertakings (reluctant participants
though we may be ;-), the first best advice has got to be: always get
more gear, better gear, and bigger gear. When you get yourself a nice
20-gallon glass tank, and your school of white clouds swims happily
along amid thriving plant life (which needs sufficient light, "2 watts
per gallon" for most plants), likely you will very proud to show off
your happy, healthy family.

Good luck.

[Dinky]

"Robin" > wrote in message
om...
|
| I have 2 White Cloud Mountain Minnows and 2 snails in a little
| Aquababies cube tank. (www.aquababies.com if you want to see what


Damn, I was hoping they'd stopped selling those AB deathtraps......

Good call on the Eclipse! Just stay on a good schedule of water
changes with treated water, and take good care of your filter!! The
light in the eclipse will supposrt most "low light" plants, such as
anubias and java fern, and the plants will go a long way to making
the tank healthier and easier to maintain. It sounds like you have
done your research and I congratulate you.

b

[NetMax]

interspersed...

"Robin" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi,
>
> I am setting up a new tank and am totally overwhelmed by the
> information I've learned through reading and research. I think I have
> an idea of how to be successful but welcome any ideas and experienced
> opinions about my plans.
>
> I have 2 White Cloud Mountain Minnows and 2 snails in a little
> Aquababies cube tank. (www.aquababies.com if you want to see what
> those are). They were a gift, and I've had them for a year. The
> literature included with the kit assured me that the set up was OK for
> the fish. They've done well, but I now understand that they need a
> lot more space and care than what they have. (Honestly, I've not
> especially interested in fish keeping as a hobby and people I know
> think it's a lot of trouble and expense to go through for two little
> minnows. However, I feel that they're little living things in my
> care and I'd like them to have a nice home and be happy.)
>
> I bought an Eclipse Hex 5-gallon kit. (I know at least 10 gallons are
> recommended, but, honestly I don't have the space nor the money) From
> what I've read the White Clouds would be suited to survive in the
> fluctuations of a smaller tank. It comes with a bio-wheel filter. I
> don't think they need a heater. My home is climate controlled so
> their water temperature will be stable and remain within 68 to 73
> degrees. My tap water has a nearly neutral Ph (7.05ish) and a general
> hardness of 8 degrees, and is OK for the species. I'm glad, since
> they've been living in it all this time!

Your Eclipse 5 will be a castle to your WCMs. I think a heater is
warranted if the tank is located in an area of temperature fluctuations
(ie: window sill) such that the water temperature bounces more than 3F
per day, otherwise, you should be ok. Everything described sounds fine
so far. WCMs are ideal for your setup.

> The fish love the little plant that came in their cube, but it's
> dying. I have a 10w fluorescent bulb and plan on planting. I think a
> Melon Sword and a Moneywort would be OK in my water and not too much
> trouble? I don't mind supplementing and pruning but am not interested
> in serious aquatic gardening.

Most any plants which are size appropriate are ok. Low light plants will
do the best, but experiment a bit. Moneywort or Pennywort could do well.
You will have room to replace the plant that was used in the cube.

> I've read a lot about the nitrogen cycle and think (hope!) I grasp it.
> I think I could either cycle the tank with water and gravel from
> their cube, or, cycle it with the fish themselves. I'm leaning toward
> using the fish, since taking some gravel out of the small cube might
> stress the fish more than putting them through cycling. I'm confused
> about the biological starters for sale - they seem to be too good to
> be true, but the pet store people say they work. Would that be a
> better route?

I suggest you move the fish, and then empty the cube's gravel into some
type of net to hang in the Eclipse for a few weeks. A knee-high pantyhose
works, or the pet shop sells little bags, used to hold carbon in filters.
You can also use the old gravel in the new tank. These techniques will
get you cycled without stressing them. The effectiveness of the bacteria
starters varies considerably. Pet store people are often very unreliable
sources of information, so beware.

Cycling the tank is most basically described as waiting till the fish's
environment has a waste processing capability which matches the fish's
waste production. The bulk of the waste processing comes from bacteria.
The waste comes from whatever the fish eat which is usually whatever you
feed them.

> I've read that they should live in groups of six. I think six is too
> many for a 5 gallon tank but it might be able to handle four after
> it's cycled. Since one of the fish seems to be very aggressive I
> thought that getting more fish would be good for them. Would four be
> better than two for schooling fish? I think these two are males and I
> really don't want to deal with fry, so, I'd like to get two more males
> but am unsure if this would be a bad idea? Would it be a
> biting-eachother-fest?

After it's cycled, I'm sure that it would easily hold 6 WCM. Having more
than 2 fish will dissipate their aggressions. Babies should not be a
concern. They are egg scatterers, and will eat any eggs they later find
(and in a 5g, they will find them all ;~). I'm not sure how long it will
take to cycle the tank. With proper seeding, it might only take a few
days. I'd wait about 2 weeks before adding more fish, and ideally they
would have been quarantined for 2 weeks.

> A lot of my reading warns against the use of snails because they
> proliferate quickly. Mine seem to be sterile! (or maybe the fish are
> eating the eggs?) I'm not sure what kind they are but I don't seem to
> have any algae so they must be eating it. Are there any other reasons
> to exclude snails from the tank?

No, proliferation is usually their major offence. Almost all snails are
somewhat opportunistic, but some prefer algae, others soft plant tissue,
others scavenge along the bottom for animal matter, so what they eat
varies by type and opportunity. Don't count on them being sterile.
While in the cube, snail eggs might have been on the WCM's diet.

> Once everything is set up, I know I have to change the 25% of the
> water and vacuum the gravel weekly, change the charcoal filter in the
> every 2-4 weeks, and monitor the water values for signs of trouble.

That's a fine recipe. Many people with planted tanks omit the carbon
after a while.

> I think I've covered everything (sorry this is so long) but I'm sure I
> have a great deal to learn! Any suggestions or comments would be
> welcome and very appreciated. I'm attached to my fish guys and really
> don't want to kill them in the process of trying to help them!

I think more fish die from kindness than cruelty, but you have done your
research. Post back anyime you have a question or want to double check
the latest advice from your pet shop.

--
www.NetMax.tk

> Thanks!
> Robin

[Robin]

Thanks to everyone who wrote! I really appreciate it. The tank is
set up and beginning to cycle. The most difficult task was dealing
with the Seachem Flourite I bought for substrate, which arrived nearly
mudlike.

Adam Gottschalk writes:

>you'll enjoy the hobby (which you say you're
> not interested in...but your lengthy post belies a "secret" love of the
> little lives a few feet from you...) more when you stop worrying about
> it so much :-)

Haha! You got me. I do love them. Because they are so entirely
dependent, I want to do my best to not kill them. Once I'm more
confident in my fish keeping skills, I'm sure I'll relax a bit.

>first best advice has got to be: always get
> more gear, better gear, and bigger gear. When you get yourself a nice 20-gallon glass tank

You know, I thought about this. But, it took a while to put aside the
money for the setup I have now. I've spent nearly $132 on the kit and
extras for this small set-up. It doesn't sound like much, but it's my
limit. A 20 glass kit costs at least $100 on sale. I know it's
probably a lot less expensive to purchase used equipment, but, since I
am so new to the hobby, I really wouldn't know how to shop for it
wisely.

Dinky writes:

> Damn, I was hoping they'd stopped selling those AB deathtraps......

You know, I had no idea that they were Hell For Fish because mine has
functioned so well. After learning more about keeping fish, I
immediately tested the water and found it to be safe. I think the
cubes do function properly regarding water chemistry in some way.

I'm upgrading because I was upset to learn that mostly schooling fish
are used in inadequate numbers – only two or three a cube, and the
confinement was stressful for them, I think.

> The
> light in the eclipse will supposrt most "low light" plants, such as
> anubias and java fern, and the plants will go a long way to making
Ø > the tank healthier and easier to maintain.

That's exactly my hope! I did purchase a plant sold to me as an
"anubia congensis". When I got home, I looked it up and the leaves are
somewhat different and I've yet to identify it. (I think I need to
find a more knowledgeable store :-)

Thanks for the advice and encouragement!

Netmax writes:

>Your Eclipse 5 will be a castle to your WCMs.

They love it! I immediately noticed a decrease in fighting and
aggression. I don't think they know what to do with all their new
space. :-)

>I think a heater is
>warranted if the tank is located in an area of temperature
fluctuations
(>ie: window sill)

No, it's in a hallway on a bookshelf (braced for the weight of the
water.) It's away from drafts, heat vents, and noise. The temp has
been very stable. I actually think the light is making the tank a
little warmer.

>You can also use the old gravel in the new tank. These techniques
>will
get you cycled without stressing them.

I did put the gravel and the large rocks in the tank with them.

>The effectiveness of the bacteria
>starters varies considerably.

Good to know!

>After it's cycled, I'm sure that it would easily hold 6 WCM.

Really? Doesn't that violate the 1"fish/gallon suggestion? They're
1.5 inches each so that would be nine inches of fish in five gallons.
However, 1" for the White Clouds is not the same as 1" on a taller of
wider fish. They are barely creating any ammonia at all!

>I'd wait about 2 weeks before adding more fish, and ideally they
>would have been quarantined for 2 weeks.

I don't have another tank. Is there a way to do this without one?

>Post back anyime you have a question or want to double check
>the latest advice from your pet shop.

I will, thank you very much! Thanks for taking the time to read this,
too.

I read over your website – very informative! I've bookmarked the water
page as a reference.

Again, thanks to all!

[NetMax]

"Robin" > wrote in message
om...
> Thanks to everyone who wrote! I really appreciate it. The tank is
> set up and beginning to cycle. The most difficult task was dealing
> with the Seachem Flourite I bought for substrate, which arrived nearly
> mudlike.
<snip>

> >After it's cycled, I'm sure that it would easily hold 6 WCM.
>
> Really? Doesn't that violate the 1"fish/gallon suggestion? They're
> 1.5 inches each so that would be nine inches of fish in five gallons.
> However, 1" for the White Clouds is not the same as 1" on a taller of
> wider fish. They are barely creating any ammonia at all!

I wrote a long winded diatribe on stocking here
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/stocking/stocking.shtml
but it's easier to take my word on it ;~), 6 minnows in a 5g tank would
be peachy. I'm sure that 2 minnows and 2 snails in an Aquababy violated
the guideline far worst that you will ever do in an Eclipse.

> >I'd wait about 2 weeks before adding more fish, and ideally they
> >would have been quarantined for 2 weeks.
>
> I don't have another tank. Is there a way to do this without one?

Any suitable container. Vase, goldfish bowl, fruit bowl etc. Most of
the time, the fish are fine (disease free), and by the time you mix them
together, they are all accustomed to the water parameters, so they are
more likely to stay fine. I'm sure some people reading this are grinning
about quarantining minnows, as minnows are often used as test subjects to
test tanks, and are not very expensive fish to go to a lot of trouble
for, but that's not the way I look at it. The value of a fish may have
nothing to do with its monetary value, so the handling procedures for a
much more expensive fish work just fine for a less expensive fish. You
have had your 2 minnows for quite a while, so you can decide the effort
you want to make improving their odds.

You new minnows will have come from an environment where there has been
potential contact with many diseases and medications. They might even be
carriers, and that is part of the risk. At the other extreme, your AB
minnows have been in isolation. Whatever auto-immune system they have,
has been dormant for a long time, and will be slow to come back into
action if needed. Keeping your new arrivals elsewhere for 2-3 weeks
might be a very good idea.

You mentioned you put a plant in. This would normally go through a
similar isolation or more easily, a plant dip to kill anything on it (1
part bleach and 20 parts water). Plants are less likely to be disease
vectors if they came from a plant-only aquarium. I hope I am not making
you too nervous ;~) It's just an aspect of the hobby when you are adding
new things.

> >Post back anyime you have a question or want to double check
> >the latest advice from your pet shop.
>
> I will, thank you very much! Thanks for taking the time to read this,
> too.
>
> I read over your website - very informative! I've bookmarked the water
> page as a reference.

You're very welcome, to be helpful is exactly why I wrote the articles
:o)
--
www.NetMax.tk


> Again, thanks to all!

[Robin]

Hi NetMax!

My fish are doing great. Even my 2 year old niece commented, "they're
happy." The tank is cycling nicely; I'm getting another pair of
White Clouds tomorrow and another plant. Hopefully after the fish
quarantine the tank should be ready for more fish. I'll see how the
four work out together and add two more if they do OK.

re: quarantine
> > I don't have another tank. Is there a way to do this without one?
>
> Any suitable container. Vase, goldfish bowl, fruit bowl etc.

LOL They'll be delightful on the buffet with matching candlesticks.
;-) Ironically, I'm planning to use the cube. I assume I need to do
daily water changes and acclimate them to the tank water before they
go in?

>I'm sure some people reading this are grinning
> about quarantining minnows

Anything to make people smile. ;-)

>as minnows are often used as test subjects to
> test tanks

Huh, that one's new to me. I've heard "cycle fish" and "feeder fish",
and suspected "bait" but not "experiment fish". It seems my little
tank is a White Cloud Sanctuary.

> The value of a fish may have
> nothing to do with its monetary value

Well said. I'll remember that -- it's a good reply next time somebody
wonders why I haven't just flushed them or that just I'm insane for
investing all time/money/learning for their care. hahaha!

> You new minnows will have come from an environment where there has been
> potential contact with many diseases and medications. They might even be
> carriers, and that is part of the risk. At the other extreme, your AB
> minnows have been in isolation. Whatever auto-immune system they have,
> has been dormant for a long time, and will be slow to come back into
> action if needed. Keeping your new arrivals elsewhere for 2-3 weeks
> might be a very good idea.

I understand and will proceed with caution.

> You mentioned you put a plant in. This would normally go through a
> similar isolation or more easily, a plant dip to kill anything on it

That's good to know. My plant book only suggested a good rinsing in
case of snails. I did wipe the slime off and so far everything is
fine, but, I'll know for the future.

> I hope I am not making
> you too nervous ;~)

No, I can handle it! Thanks, though. :-)

My only speedbump has been the Ph. Out of my tap it's 7.0, after a
few days of sitting, it's 7.4, and after a day in the tank it's 8.0.
My fish are OK in it, and but I'm concerned about fluctuations of Ph
from water changes.

I'm assuming the dissipation of CO2 from my tap water is causing the
initial rise. It's been suggested to me that Carbon from the Eclipse
filter is not the best grade and leaches phosphates, possibly causing
the second rise. I suspect that photosynthesis activity from the
plant might as well, since the Ph goes down slightly at night. I'm
planning on supplementing with Flourish Excel to (hopefully) provide
some Carbon and counting on the eventual extra fish to help out. You
mentioned eliminating carbon use for a planted tank, so that's a
possibility as well. We'll see how it all works out.

Thanks again for all of your knowledge!

Robin

[NetMax]

"Robin" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi NetMax!
>
> My fish are doing great. Even my 2 year old niece commented, "they're
> happy." The tank is cycling nicely; I'm getting another pair of
> White Clouds tomorrow and another plant. Hopefully after the fish
> quarantine the tank should be ready for more fish. I'll see how the
> four work out together and add two more if they do OK.

Great : ) thanks for letting us know.

> re: quarantine
> > > I don't have another tank. Is there a way to do this without one?
> >
> > Any suitable container. Vase, goldfish bowl, fruit bowl etc.
>
> LOL They'll be delightful on the buffet with matching candlesticks.
> ;-) Ironically, I'm planning to use the cube. I assume I need to do
> daily water changes and acclimate them to the tank water before they
> go in?

Sounds right, though 100% water changes are hard on fish until they have
acclimated to it.

> >I'm sure some people reading this are grinning
> > about quarantining minnows
>
> Anything to make people smile. ;-)
>
> >as minnows are often used as test subjects to
> > test tanks
>
> Huh, that one's new to me. I've heard "cycle fish" and "feeder fish",
> and suspected "bait" but not "experiment fish". It seems my little
> tank is a White Cloud Sanctuary.

They are often used to test for toxcity of materials, as they tolerate
cooler temperature (unheated pail) and don't need a lot of water.

> > The value of a fish may have
> > nothing to do with its monetary value
>
> Well said. I'll remember that -- it's a good reply next time somebody
> wonders why I haven't just flushed them or that just I'm insane for
> investing all time/money/learning for their care. hahaha!
>
> > You new minnows will have come from an environment where there has
been
> > potential contact with many diseases and medications. They might
even be
> > carriers, and that is part of the risk. At the other extreme, your A
B
> > minnows have been in isolation. Whatever auto-immune system they
have,
> > has been dormant for a long time, and will be slow to come back into
> > action if needed. Keeping your new arrivals elsewhere for 2-3 weeks
> > might be a very good idea.
>
> I understand and will proceed with caution.
>
> > You mentioned you put a plant in. This would normally go through a
> > similar isolation or more easily, a plant dip to kill anything on it
>
> That's good to know. My plant book only suggested a good rinsing in
> case of snails. I did wipe the slime off and so far everything is
> fine, but, I'll know for the future.

One part bleach in 20 parts water, dip for a short time, rinse with fresh
water and dip in a pail with lots of de-chlor. This is a commonly used
method using household ingredients. Duration of dip depends on the
fragility of the leaves, from a few seconds with Cabomba, up to a minute
with Anubius. I use it sometimes, some people always do while others,
never (ymmv).

> > I hope I am not making
> > you too nervous ;~)
>
> No, I can handle it! Thanks, though. :-)
>
> My only speedbump has been the Ph. Out of my tap it's 7.0, after a
> few days of sitting, it's 7.4, and after a day in the tank it's 8.0.
> My fish are OK in it, and but I'm concerned about fluctuations of Ph
> from water changes.
>
> I'm assuming the dissipation of CO2 from my tap water is causing the
> initial rise.

The effects of dissolved gases should certainly be gone after 2 days, so
any further changes in pH would I suspect be due to something else. The
fact that your water hops up to 7.4 from 7.0 means than your water
changes should be small. This pH bounce isn't much good for the fish,
and the change in dissolved gases concentration can't be doing any good
either. With divers, it might be similar to what they call the 'bends',
when CO2 starts forming in the blood. The fish will make some sort of
adjustment when the concentration of gases goes up, and then down again.
Generally, when I don't understand the physics, biology or chemistry of a
change in water parameters, I assume that making the change more slowly
would be better from the fish's perspective.

To drive the pH from 7.4 to 8.0 requires an increase in gH/kH or a change
(drop?) in CO2. If it is gH/kH, then it is coming from some minerals in
the tank (gravel, rocks etc). If it is CO2, then keeping the water
better circulated should stabilize it.

> It's been suggested to me that Carbon from the Eclipse
> filter is not the best grade and leaches phosphates, possibly causing
> the second rise.

Sounds like hooey to me, but I'm no expert.

I suspect that photosynthesis activity from the
> plant might as well, since the Ph goes down slightly at night. I'm
> planning on supplementing with Flourish Excel to (hopefully) provide
> some Carbon and counting on the eventual extra fish to help out.

Yup, it's possible to measure a cyclical dip in pH due to a plant's
photo-period, especially in condiions of high plant load, high/low light
conditions, low fish load, small tanks and/or low buffer (kH). It's
something to be aware of, if it gets to the point where it stresses the
fish, but it's not ordinarily a concern. Healthy acclimated fish are far
more robust than what you would believe from reading.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> You
> mentioned eliminating carbon use for a planted tank, so that's a
> possibility as well. We'll see how it all works out.
>
> Thanks again for all of your knowledge!
>
> Robin

[Vicki S]

Hehehe NetMax, I am going to pick on ya :) The bends are caused by
Nitrogen in the body. You see we breathe 80% Nitrogen 20% Oxygen (rough
est. because there are other elements in the air we breath but for
simplicity I left it at this) Nitrogen is not used by our bodies and we
off gas it through respiration. At one atmosphere this is not a problem
but when a diver hits 33ft gas is compressed by 1/3 (ie 2 atmospheres of
pressure) and the volume of air that a diver breaths is the same but its
chemistry is different. Now the compressed nitrogen goes in to the body
and it takes a little longer to off gas. As the diver goes deeper than
the Nitrogen gets more concentrated in the body and as long as I stay
down there, there is no problem with it hurting me (unless I get a case
of the "Narks" but that is a different story LOL) The problem with the
Nitrogen starts when I make my ascent. I need to do it slowly so that
the nitrogen can be outgassed and I don't get nitrogen bubbles in my
body which could cause many painful things depending where in the body
the bubbles decided to gather.

This is why smart divers ascend slowly, make decompression stops and use
dive tables (or a dive computer) to keep the "Bends" away.

Vicki (my little crash course in the Bends)





>This pH bounce isn't much good for the
>fish, and the change in dissolved gases
>concentration can't be doing any good
>either. With divers, it might be similar to
>what they call the 'bends', when CO2
>starts forming in the blood. The fish will
>make some sort of adjustment when the
>concentration of gases goes up, and then
>down again.

<snip>

"it is well that war is so terrible, or else we would grow fond of it."
~Robert E. Lee

"May all your babies be born naked and may you be in heaven ten minutes
before the devil knows your dead!!!
~ Irish Proverb

http://shamrock4u.250free.com

[NetMax]

Nitrogen! I was hoping someone could set me straight. Thanks Vicki!

I wonder if my comparison is still valid for fish. They get used to a
gaseous mixture which is a function of the pressure and concentrations of
our atmosphere. Well water skews that recipe so they get stressed. If
they acclimate, then the eventual reduction of gases back to a function
of our atmospheric levels stresses them out again. When I explain this
to customers, I try to draw on something they understand, so I use the
diver's example (this always seems to catch their understanding).

Another more obscure example is the decompression stops used by fisherman
when catching Frontosas from 30 foot depths. I don't know the mechanism
at work there, pressure, gaseous mixture... etc.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Vicki S" > wrote in message
...
> Hehehe NetMax, I am going to pick on ya :) The bends are caused by
> Nitrogen in the body. You see we breathe 80% Nitrogen 20% Oxygen
(rough
> est. because there are other elements in the air we breath but for
> simplicity I left it at this) Nitrogen is not used by our bodies and we
> off gas it through respiration. At one atmosphere this is not a
problem
> but when a diver hits 33ft gas is compressed by 1/3 (ie 2 atmospheres
of
> pressure) and the volume of air that a diver breaths is the same but
its
> chemistry is different. Now the compressed nitrogen goes in to the
body
> and it takes a little longer to off gas. As the diver goes deeper than
> the Nitrogen gets more concentrated in the body and as long as I stay
> down there, there is no problem with it hurting me (unless I get a case
> of the "Narks" but that is a different story LOL) The problem with the
> Nitrogen starts when I make my ascent. I need to do it slowly so that
> the nitrogen can be outgassed and I don't get nitrogen bubbles in my
> body which could cause many painful things depending where in the body
> the bubbles decided to gather.
>
> This is why smart divers ascend slowly, make decompression stops and
use
> dive tables (or a dive computer) to keep the "Bends" away.
>
> Vicki (my little crash course in the Bends)
>
>
>
>
>
> >This pH bounce isn't much good for the
> >fish, and the change in dissolved gases
> >concentration can't be doing any good
> >either. With divers, it might be similar to
> >what they call the 'bends', when CO2
> >starts forming in the blood. The fish will
> >make some sort of adjustment when the
> >concentration of gases goes up, and then
> >down again.
>
> <snip>
>
> "it is well that war is so terrible, or else we would grow fond of it."
> ~Robert E. Lee
>
> "May all your babies be born naked and may you be in heaven ten minutes
> before the devil knows your dead!!!
> ~ Irish Proverb
>
> http://shamrock4u.250free.com
>

[Vicki S]

Your very welcome NetMax!!!

That is a good question and now my brain is on overdrive. I have seen
many a time when divers have brought up critters from great depth and
they were either dead or dyeing at the surface because of the lack of
pressure at 0ft. Boyels law states that at 33ft pressure is 2X, 66ft is
3X and so on. So a fish that lives at any depth below 33ft would have
to be brought up slowly so it would not explode (I don't mean literally
there) and it could outgass any gasses in solution in its body.

>Nitrogen! I was hoping someone could set
>me straight. Thanks Vicki!

>I wonder if my comparison is still valid for
>fish. They get used to a gaseous mixture
>which is a function of the pressure and
>concentrations of our atmosphere. Well
>water skews that recipe so they get
>stressed. If they acclimate, then the
>eventual reduction of gases back to a
>function of our atmospheric levels
>stresses them out again. When I explain
>this to customers, I try to draw on
>something they understand, so I use the
>diver's example (this always seems to
>catch their understanding).

Personally I would keep using it because most people probably don't know
the difference. For fish I would suspect that instead of nitrogen it is
oxygen coming out of solution in their tissues which stresses or
possibly kills them.

>Another more obscure example is the
>decompression stops used by fisherman
>when catching Frontosas from 30 foot
>depths. I don't know the mechanism at
>work there, pressure, gaseous mixture...
>etc.

That would be for the divers (if they are used) and I am sure the fish
do better after having a safety stop. But than again I am not in any
way an expert so there may be someone out there who could do a better
job than me.


Off topic here but I will be diving this weekend and if you are
interested I will have some great pics of bluegills to show off (that is
if the pics turn out ok) once I get the film developed. :)


Vicki

"it is well that war is so terrible, or else we would grow fond of it."
~Robert E. Lee

"May all your babies be born naked and may you be in heaven ten minutes
before the devil knows your dead!!!
~ Irish Proverb

http://shamrock4u.250free.com

[The Outcaste]

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 23:45:20 -0400, (Vicki S)
bubbled forth the following:

>>Another more obscure example is the
>>decompression stops used by fisherman
>>when catching Frontosas from 30 foot
>>depths. I don't know the mechanism at
>>work there, pressure, gaseous mixture...
>>etc.
>
>That would be for the divers (if they are used) and I am sure the fish
>do better after having a safety stop. But than again I am not in any
>way an expert so there may be someone out there who could do a better
>job than me.

When I was actively diving back in the seventies, we considered a 30
ft dive as never needing decompression no matter how long you stayed
down. Now-a-days, the rules say to count each dive under 40 ft as if
you were at 40 ft. Even so, if you spend no more than 120 minutes at
40 ft, spend 10 minutes between dives, you can dive around the clock.

Frontosas can be found down to depths of 40 meters (131 feet). This
does require decompression stops for the divers as max time at 130
feet is only 8 minutes. The fish need the decompression to prevent
damage to their swim bladder -- they can't release the pressure fast
enough to be brought directly to the surface without damage, requiring
up to 4-5 days to bring to the surface.

Jerry

[Vicki S]

There are a lot of changes in dive tables these days. I can only spend
130 min at 40 ft without having to worry about decompression sickness
and a 10 min interval is considered part of the same dive. To be able
to spend another 130 min I would have to be out of the water a good 9
hours. But my training is SSI and the other schools like PADI may teach
something different.

Vicki

>When I was actively diving back in the
>seventies, we considered a 30 ft dive as
>never needing decompression no matter
>how long you stayed down. Now-a-days,
>the rules say to count each dive under 40
>ft as if you were at 40 ft. Even so, if you
>spend no more than 120 minutes at 40 ft,
>spend 10 minutes between dives, you can
>dive around the clock.

"it is well that war is so terrible, or else we would grow fond of it."
~Robert E. Lee

"May all your babies be born naked and may you be in heaven ten minutes
before the devil knows your dead!!!
~ Irish Proverb

http://shamrock4u.250free.com

[The Outcaste]

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 10:13:56 -0400, (Vicki S)
bubbled forth the following:

>There are a lot of changes in dive tables these days. I can only spend
>130 min at 40 ft without having to worry about decompression sickness
>and a 10 min interval is considered part of the same dive. To be able
>to spend another 130 min I would have to be out of the water a good 9
>hours. But my training is SSI and the other schools like PADI may teach
>something different.
>
>Vicki

So true. When I took my training, our instructor showed us 3 slightly
different systems. Mostly minor differences, like the 10 minute
interval. NAUI rules say less than ten minutes it would be part of the
same dive, but 10 minutes or over, and you can go to the repetitive
dive tables, which would allow 123 minutes (130 - 7 min residual) on
the 2nd (and subsequent dives). So if you limit dive time to 120 and
have a surface time of at least 10 minutes, you can go no-stop by
these rules.

On the other end, to get the full 130 minutes back NAUI requires 24
hours out, not just 9.

One of the first accessories I bought was a diving computer. Not as
fancy (this was back in the seventies after all) as what they have
now, but it greatly simplified figuring max times and repetitive
dives, as it mimics the absorption/outgassing of nitrogen by the body.
Thus it takes into account the fact that most people don't spend the
entire dive at the max depth they reached.

Jerry