another euthanasia FAQ

[Chris Palma]

Hi.

I unfortunately had to euthanize an otocinclus last night. I've read over
the FAQ at thekrib, but I know that folks in the NG don't always agree
with the FAQ. While I considered my options, I googled for other sites
and found this one:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/faustus/nicoldaquaria/euthanasia.htm

I'm sure that not everyone will agree with their assessments, but after
reading their "humane ratings", I felt the best method I had at my
disposal was the pure alcohol method. I know that some people disagree,
but in my case it seemed to be very humane. The oto appeared to just
instantly go stiff and unconscious, so I was relieved.

--chris

[NetMax]

"Chris Palma" > wrote in message
...
> Hi.
>
> I unfortunately had to euthanize an otocinclus last night. I've read
over
> the FAQ at thekrib, but I know that folks in the NG don't always agree
> with the FAQ. While I considered my options, I googled for other sites
> and found this one:
>
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/faustus/nicoldaquaria/euthanasia.htm
>
> I'm sure that not everyone will agree with their assessments, but after
> reading their "humane ratings", I felt the best method I had at my
> disposal was the pure alcohol method. I know that some people
disagree,
> but in my case it seemed to be very humane. The oto appeared to just
> instantly go stiff and unconscious, so I was relieved.
>
> --chris

I got a laugh out of the last category (killing them through electrical
shock). I think that method is more likely to kill the euthaniser, than
the euthanisee ;~)

Regarding MS-222 (the Rolls Royce of fish euthanasia), I've used Euglenol
(Clove oil) available from a pharmacy in the dental section. It worked
very well. This is the same pharmacy that sells me Formaldehyde (fish
anti-parasitic). I think I'm already their weird fish guy ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Lily]

I am an essential oil nut, and I had a very sick guppy a couple of months
ago which I decided had to be put down (nasty wound) I had clove oil in my
'kit' and used this - incredibly effective, she was gone within a second.
Easier than getting hold of pure alchohol as well. From my own experiences
using it on mouth ulcers, it numbs immediately, so I would have to say it
was very humane.
Apparently it can also be used as an anasthetic - but the dosage calc would
have to be a nightmare!
Cheers
Lill

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Chris Palma" > wrote in message
>
...
> > Hi.
> >
> > I unfortunately had to euthanize an otocinclus last night. I've read
> over
> > the FAQ at thekrib, but I know that folks in the NG don't always agree
> > with the FAQ. While I considered my options, I googled for other sites
> > and found this one:
> >
> > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/faustus/nicoldaquaria/euthanasia.htm
> >
> > I'm sure that not everyone will agree with their assessments, but after
> > reading their "humane ratings", I felt the best method I had at my
> > disposal was the pure alcohol method. I know that some people
> disagree,
> > but in my case it seemed to be very humane. The oto appeared to just
> > instantly go stiff and unconscious, so I was relieved.
> >
> > --chris
>
> I got a laugh out of the last category (killing them through electrical
> shock). I think that method is more likely to kill the euthaniser, than
> the euthanisee ;~)
>
> Regarding MS-222 (the Rolls Royce of fish euthanasia), I've used Euglenol
> (Clove oil) available from a pharmacy in the dental section. It worked
> very well. This is the same pharmacy that sells me Formaldehyde (fish
> anti-parasitic). I think I'm already their weird fish guy ;~)
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>

[Bill & Kel Turnbull]

Yep, definately agree with the clove oil...

That is how the Blue acara left finally a few nights ago, took about 15 secs
and he stopped breathing then about another 15-30 and he had moved on...

Cant remember who mentioned it a few posts back, but the clove oil appealed
to my way of thinking best.

Our little girl came home on sunday night to find the news about our (sort
of her's) poor departed fish...
I'm glad she has an idea on reincarnation (although she loves going to a
christian faith church...:)

Also got over the urge (being new to hosting fish) to quickly clean out the
tank and start again last night! Am now taking my time to clean it right,
set it up nicely and cycle it properly first.

Bill



"Lily" > wrote in message
...
> I am an essential oil nut, and I had a very sick guppy a couple of months
> ago which I decided had to be put down (nasty wound) I had clove oil in my
> 'kit' and used this - incredibly effective, she was gone within a second.
> Easier than getting hold of pure alchohol as well. From my own
experiences
> using it on mouth ulcers, it numbs immediately, so I would have to say it
> was very humane.
> Apparently it can also be used as an anasthetic - but the dosage calc
would
> have to be a nightmare!
> Cheers
> Lill
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > "Chris Palma" > wrote in message
> >
>
...
> > > Hi.
> > >
> > > I unfortunately had to euthanize an otocinclus last night. I've read
> > over
> > > the FAQ at thekrib, but I know that folks in the NG don't always agree
> > > with the FAQ. While I considered my options, I googled for other
sites
> > > and found this one:
> > >
> > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/faustus/nicoldaquaria/euthanasia.htm
> > >
> > > I'm sure that not everyone will agree with their assessments, but
after
> > > reading their "humane ratings", I felt the best method I had at my
> > > disposal was the pure alcohol method. I know that some people
> > disagree,
> > > but in my case it seemed to be very humane. The oto appeared to just
> > > instantly go stiff and unconscious, so I was relieved.
> > >
> > > --chris
> >
> > I got a laugh out of the last category (killing them through electrical
> > shock). I think that method is more likely to kill the euthaniser, than
> > the euthanisee ;~)
> >
> > Regarding MS-222 (the Rolls Royce of fish euthanasia), I've used
Euglenol
> > (Clove oil) available from a pharmacy in the dental section. It worked
> > very well. This is the same pharmacy that sells me Formaldehyde (fish
> > anti-parasitic). I think I'm already their weird fish guy ;~)
> > --
> > www.NetMax.tk
> >
> >
>
>

[Kenneth Ho]

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Many may not agree with me, but for small fish, I simply catch it, wrack it
against the floor with extreme force, instant death. A bit messy though, but
I think this has got to be the most humane way to put down any small fishes.

Cheers
Kenneth



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[Eric Schreiber]

Kenneth Ho wrote:

> Many may not agree with me, but for small fish, I simply catch it,
> wrack it against the floor with extreme force, instant death. A bit
> messy though, but I think this has got to be the most humane way to
> put down any small fishes.

I agree with you - that's how I kill my fish when necessary. Luckily, I
haven't had to do it very often, and all my fish are small.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

[Mean_Chlorine]

"NetMax" > wrote in message >...

> > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/faustus/nicoldaquaria/euthanasia.htm

Interesting. I'd almost completely reverse the ratings on many of
those methods. E.g. freezing is "strongly discouraged" as a method of
fish euthanasia by the Swedish equivalent to the EPA, because muscle
proteins denature before nerves do, and at temperatures far above
freezing. Having the equivalent to a whole-body muscle cramp is
presumably painful, but the fish is unable to move, whereas
decapitation is the suggested method for medium sized fish, with
massive blunt trauma (with a mallet or e.g. by stepping on them for
small fish) and bleeding (cutting the throat) as alternatives where
this is impractical.

Having killed fish with alcohol, I can attest that that death isn't
necessarily either quick nor stressless, although it sometimes is.

And can someone explain to me why handling fish in order to drop them
in cold water is less stressful than handling fish to kill them with
blunt trauma?

At least he didn't suggest pouring boiling water on the fish. That may
work with small fish, but large fish take quite a while to die from
that method.

MS-222 is of course the best way, but hard to get hold of. That oil
thing was interesting, hadn't heard of that method before.

[Graham Ramsay]

"Mean_Chlorine" wrote
> At least he didn't suggest pouring boiling water on the fish. That may
> work with small fish, but large fish take quite a while to die from
> that method.


Actually he gives boiling a 100% humane rating. I wondered
if the site was a parody to begin with. There's some bizarre
suggestions (blender!), good methods given low ratings and
downright cruel methods given high ratings.

--
Graham Ramsay

[Harry Muscle]

"Graham Ramsay" > wrote in message
...
> "Mean_Chlorine" wrote
> > At least he didn't suggest pouring boiling water on the fish. That may
> > work with small fish, but large fish take quite a while to die from
> > that method.
>
>
> Actually he gives boiling a 100% humane rating. I wondered
> if the site was a parody to begin with. There's some bizarre
> suggestions (blender!), good methods given low ratings and
> downright cruel methods given high ratings.
>
> --
> Graham Ramsay
>
>
>
>

I agree, if you have to euthanise your fish, don't go by the information
from this site. Check out others, that are considered more accurate.

Harry

[Chris Palma]

Well, I was the one who posted the original link, and I didn't think the
information was all bad. From what I gathered by reading this site and
others on euthanasia that no one can seem to agree. What some people
consider to be entirely humane, others think to be absolutely terrible.

The blender suggestion definitely sounds gross and may offend most of us
that have attachment to our fish, but on the other hand, it seems to be
an easier version of the standard suggestion of slicing the head off with
a sharp knife.

I think that the best suggestion is not to ignore this site, but to read
it, read the FAQ @ thekrib, and read 1-2 other sources, consider what
everyone has to say, and then use the method that seems most humane to you
and that you feel comfortable with doing.


On Fri, 21 May 2004, Harry Muscle wrote:

> "Graham Ramsay" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Mean_Chlorine" wrote
> > > At least he didn't suggest pouring boiling water on the fish. That may
> > > work with small fish, but large fish take quite a while to die from
> > > that method.
> >
> >
> > Actually he gives boiling a 100% humane rating. I wondered
> > if the site was a parody to begin with. There's some bizarre
> > suggestions (blender!), good methods given low ratings and
> > downright cruel methods given high ratings.
> >
> > --
> > Graham Ramsay
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> I agree, if you have to euthanise your fish, don't go by the information
> from this site. Check out others, that are considered more accurate.
>
> Harry
>
>
>

[NetMax]

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
om...
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>...
>
> > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/faustus/nicoldaquaria/euthanasia.htm
>
> Interesting. I'd almost completely reverse the ratings on many of
> those methods. E.g. freezing is "strongly discouraged" as a method of
> fish euthanasia by the Swedish equivalent to the EPA, because muscle
> proteins denature before nerves do, and at temperatures far above
> freezing. Having the equivalent to a whole-body muscle cramp is
> presumably painful, but the fish is unable to move, whereas
> decapitation is the suggested method for medium sized fish, with
> massive blunt trauma (with a mallet or e.g. by stepping on them for
> small fish) and bleeding (cutting the throat) as alternatives where
> this is impractical.
>
> Having killed fish with alcohol, I can attest that that death isn't
> necessarily either quick nor stressless, although it sometimes is.
>
> And can someone explain to me why handling fish in order to drop them
> in cold water is less stressful than handling fish to kill them with
> blunt trauma?
>
> At least he didn't suggest pouring boiling water on the fish. That may
> work with small fish, but large fish take quite a while to die from
> that method.
>
> MS-222 is of course the best way, but hard to get hold of. That oil
> thing was interesting, hadn't heard of that method before.

http://www.fda.gov/cvm/guidance/guide150.doc has some info here, a bit
scarce but credible source.

<snipped>
Clove oil is actually a mixture of different compounds. The three
significant active ingredients are eugenol, isoeugenol and methyleugenol.
'Clove oil' is 85 to 95% eugenol. Isoeugenol and methyleugenol make up 5
to 15% of the remaining ingredients. Isoeugenol is the compound
considered by some aquaculturists to have the best anesthetic effect.
However, neither clove oil nor any individual active ingredient of clove
oil (eugenol, isoeugenol, or methyleugenol) is approved for use for the
anesthesia of fish.
<snipped>

Note that the lack of approval is for its use on food intended for human
consumption. I don't think the same reservations would apply to
anaesthesia for the purposes of euthanasia on non-food tropical fish.

This subject actually hits home quite closely today. A tank of common
plecostomous was stricken with disease which we had failed to notice (the
tank is a few inches from the floor, and away from daily scrutiny). The
plecos were all doing their usual hanging off the glass and eating
normally when someone noticed their bellies were about to pop, and upon
closer scrutiny, there was pop-eye, cloudy film over them and evidence of
external bacteria on some dither fish in with them. Between the dropsy
(internal bacteria), protozoan infection and external bacteria, these
fish were too far gone. I've dealt with pleco-specific bacterial
infections before, and already have some unfortunate familiarity with the
progress of the disease from this stage.

Kicking myself all day, I decided to prevent the inevitable lingering
deaths (I have hospital tanks, but it would have been futile), and
professionally, disease control is paramount, so this tank needed to be
sterilized ASAP. Disease control has to be the most ominous aspect of
working in a pet shop. Anyways, I put enough same-temperature water in a
pail so they would each be submerged, and mixed in about 2ml of clove
oil. One by one, placed into the pail, each flicked around for about 4-5
seconds, not frantically, just not happy with being in a dark pail.
Having previously tested this in a glass bowl under proper light, I know
their activity level drops to nothing in 4-5 seconds, followed by their
respiration slowing to a stop after several more seconds. There is no
frantic pre-death activity which I would associate with their knowing
that they are under stress. By all appearances, they are knocked out (to
sleep) and then their systems shut down shortly after.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Blue Gourami]

> Anyways, I put enough same-temperature water in a
> pail so they would each be submerged, and mixed in about 2ml of clove
> oil.

Net Max, I would like to know exactly how to prepare that mixture so
it does the job for sure. That's 2 ml of clove oil in how many gallons
(or quarts) of water?

Thanks

Blue Gourami
Do not e-mail me at the address in the header, it is overrun with
spam.

[NetMax]

"Blue Gourami" > wrote in message
m...
> > Anyways, I put enough same-temperature water in a
> > pail so they would each be submerged, and mixed in about 2ml of clove
> > oil.
>
> Net Max, I would like to know exactly how to prepare that mixture so
> it does the job for sure. That's 2 ml of clove oil in how many gallons
> (or quarts) of water?
>
> Thanks
>
> Blue Gourami
> Do not e-mail me at the address in the header, it is overrun with
> spam.

The dosage does not appear to be too critical (what's the worst that can
happen if you over dose.. they die? ;~)

The recipe I read was 2ml clove oil, 8ml vodka and 1 us gallon of water.
The vodka is to cause the oil to dilute into the water. I couldn't buy
vodka under my fish supplies petty cash account ;~), so I just put the
clove oil into the water first and shake or mix it up before adding fish
into my elixer of death. I eyeball about 1 ml into less than 1/2 a
gallon of water. Clove oil is not cheap, over a $/ml, so I tend to use
less water to save oil. The mint smell lasts about a day. hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Geezer From The Freezer]

wouldn't even bother with the vodka - it burns them...then again, the clove oil
might numb the burning sensation....<ponders>