Temperature Problems

[Geoff Kemp]

Hi,

Given the recent warm weather in the SE of the UK (north essex), I`ve been
having a few problems keeping a constant temperature in my 65 litre tank.
It is kept in a west facing room, and in the evening it get very warm, given
the amount of insulation in the house. I`ve noticed a different in
temperature ranging from 25 (first thing in the morning) up to around 29
(early evening /later afternoon). I have had two confimred casuities, and
possibly two more. To which end I have checked my parameters and these seem
stable (ph 7.6, kh 15dkh, GH 16 dkh, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10, NH4 0).

I can get a fan to move the air around the tank, however this will be about
2 metres away. I also work shifts, so on some days during the warmest part,
I may not be here to make any water changes during the warmest part of the
day (note however I *do* carry out my regualr water changes, approximatly
every 6 days).

I would be able to place a standard Fan closer to the aquarium, that was an
option, as I could pick one up quite easily and cheaply, have it a lot
closer.

Any other suggestions ??

Thanks in advance,

Geoff

[Dick]

On Thu, 20 May 2004 10:08:43 +0100, "Geoff Kemp"
> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Given the recent warm weather in the SE of the UK (north essex), I`ve been
>having a few problems keeping a constant temperature in my 65 litre tank.
>It is kept in a west facing room, and in the evening it get very warm, given
>the amount of insulation in the house. I`ve noticed a different in
>temperature ranging from 25 (first thing in the morning) up to around 29
>(early evening /later afternoon). I have had two confimred casuities, and
>possibly two more. To which end I have checked my parameters and these seem
>stable (ph 7.6, kh 15dkh, GH 16 dkh, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10, NH4 0).
>
>I can get a fan to move the air around the tank, however this will be about
>2 metres away. I also work shifts, so on some days during the warmest part,
>I may not be here to make any water changes during the warmest part of the
>day (note however I *do* carry out my regualr water changes, approximatly
>every 6 days).
>
>I would be able to place a standard Fan closer to the aquarium, that was an
>option, as I could pick one up quite easily and cheaply, have it a lot
>closer.
>
>Any other suggestions ??
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Geoff
>
You say "get a fan to move the air around the tank...."

It may be your choice of words, but to get the evaporation to carry
off the heat, the hood must be off and the air flow across the water.
It is the evaporation which carries off the heat from the tank and why
the water must be added to make up for the evaporation. I would also
have a bubbler to aid motion to the water. Your weekly changes may
not be enough to manage the added minerals left behind from the
evaporation. I hope you get more and better suggestions. I am
repeating what I have read.

There have been other discussions of heat removal in the last month.
You are not alone.

[Flash Wilson]

On Thu, 20 May 2004 10:08:43 +0100, Geoff Kemp > wrote:
>Given the recent warm weather in the SE of the UK (north essex), I`ve been
>having a few problems keeping a constant temperature in my 65 litre tank.

I'm in East London, near Essex.

Anyway, http://www.gorge.org/fish/weather.shtml has some ideas.




--
Flash Wilson
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Looking for a UNIX/Apache Sysadmin, or help with your website?
Drop me an email! Available across London or working from home.

[Mark Elliott]

The cheapest solution (but ugly) would be an Office style fan, one of the
big ones, with the air flow directed along the water surface.

You could buy a chiller!

You are always going to have problems holding temperatures stable in a small
tank, but 4 degrees C is more manageable for some fish than others.
Increasing your airpump output would also help.


Mark

"Flash Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 20 May 2004 10:08:43 +0100, Geoff Kemp >
wrote:
> >Given the recent warm weather in the SE of the UK (north essex), I`ve
been
> >having a few problems keeping a constant temperature in my 65 litre tank.
>
> I'm in East London, near Essex.
>
> Anyway, http://www.gorge.org/fish/weather.shtml has some ideas.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Flash Wilson
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Looking for a UNIX/Apache Sysadmin, or help with your website?
> Drop me an email! Available across London or working from home.

[Andy Hill]

"Geoff Kemp" > wrote:
>Given the recent warm weather in the SE of the UK (north essex), I`ve been
>having a few problems keeping a constant temperature in my 65 litre tank.
>It is kept in a west facing room, and in the evening it get very warm, given
>the amount of insulation in the house. I`ve noticed a different in
>temperature ranging from 25 (first thing in the morning) up to around 29
>(early evening /later afternoon). I have had two confimred casuities, and
>possibly two more. To which end I have checked my parameters and these seem
>stable (ph 7.6, kh 15dkh, GH 16 dkh, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10, NH4 0).
>
>I can get a fan to move the air around the tank, however this will be about
>2 metres away. I also work shifts, so on some days during the warmest part,
>I may not be here to make any water changes during the warmest part of the
>day (note however I *do* carry out my regualr water changes, approximatly
>every 6 days).
>
>I would be able to place a standard Fan closer to the aquarium, that was an
>option, as I could pick one up quite easily and cheaply, have it a lot
>closer.
>
>Any other suggestions ??
>
Without knowing the fish, perhaps just setting the heater to maintain 29?
That's more than a tad warmish, but I'd think it would be better on the fish
than the wild temperature swings.

[Edward Cowling]

"Geoff Kemp" > wrote in message
...
> Given the recent warm weather in the SE of the UK (north essex), I`ve
been
> having a few problems keeping a constant temperature in my 65 litre tank.
> It is kept in a west facing room, and in the evening it get very warm,
given
> the amount of insulation in the house. I`ve noticed a different in
> temperature ranging from 25 (first thing in the morning) up to around 29


I think you're going to have serious problems in July & August. My
Tank gets virtually no natural sunlight, yet I lost some fish when the
temperature went up to 100% F last summer.

I have a Juwel tank, so I opened both feeding flaps and played
a fan over the water surface. This dramatically reduced the temperature
and I lost no more fish. Evaporation runs at about 2-3 gallons a week, but
I change 25-33% of the tank water every week anyway.

But with your tank in a West facing window I don't think this will be
enough, especially if you've already lost fish. Have you considered
screening the tank from sunlight during the day. A simple screen
would make a huge difference and keep algae down ?

Most of the deaths BTW are from lack of oxygen, not cooking :-)
Hot water holds less O2 than cold water, so keeping the number
of fish in the tank down really helps.

--
Edward Cowling - London - UK

[Velvet]

Geoff Kemp wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Given the recent warm weather in the SE of the UK (north essex), I`ve been
> having a few problems keeping a constant temperature in my 65 litre tank.
> It is kept in a west facing room, and in the evening it get very warm, given
> the amount of insulation in the house. I`ve noticed a different in
> temperature ranging from 25 (first thing in the morning) up to around 29
> (early evening /later afternoon). I have had two confimred casuities, and
> possibly two more. To which end I have checked my parameters and these seem
> stable (ph 7.6, kh 15dkh, GH 16 dkh, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10, NH4 0).
>
> I can get a fan to move the air around the tank, however this will be about
> 2 metres away. I also work shifts, so on some days during the warmest part,
> I may not be here to make any water changes during the warmest part of the
> day (note however I *do* carry out my regualr water changes, approximatly
> every 6 days).
>
> I would be able to place a standard Fan closer to the aquarium, that was an
> option, as I could pick one up quite easily and cheaply, have it a lot
> closer.
>
> Any other suggestions ??
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Geoff
>
>

I'd say that you might want to look at upping the general temp of the
tank by a couple of degrees on a permanent basis (gradually) thus
lessening the daily swing of the temp.

I have a community tank, and even in the height of summer last year had
no deaths, with the tank regularly at 31-33C during the day (in a room
that faces both south-east and north-west - double aspect). The tank
gets no direct sunlight.

Of late, it's been sat at around that temp off and on (faulty heaterstat
gradually getting worse) and again no fatalities.

I have a well planted (well, it was until the latest bout of high temps
in it, coupled with a frisky pair of breeding angelfish) tank which I
think helps keep the O2 levels up in the water in the heat too.

Keep the curtains closed on that room to help stop the temp buildup in
the first place, bubble extra air through the tank. What others have
said about the air blowing across the top is right, that's the best way
to achieve cooling, but you'll also have to keep up the water changes to
stop excessive loss through evap, and also reduce the minerals etc left
behind.

If you can get extra air vents in the hood then do that, think about
maybe reducing the lights that are on at peak temp time.

Fish should be fairly resilient if they're common-or-garden(ish)
tropicals, as long as you let them get used to the higher temp
gradually, which is why I suggested upping the temp by 2C of the tank as
a base line for it.

Am presuming you don't have ammonia present in the tank, I can't
remember if ammonia gets more nasty at a higher temp or not, it's been a
while since I've had to worry about that in mine.

--


Velvet

[Chuck]

Edward Cowling wrote:
> "Geoff Kemp" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Given the recent warm weather in the SE of the UK (north essex), I`ve
>
> been
>
>>having a few problems keeping a constant temperature in my 65 litre tank.
>>It is kept in a west facing room, and in the evening it get very warm,
>
> given
>
>>the amount of insulation in the house. I`ve noticed a different in
>>temperature ranging from 25 (first thing in the morning) up to around 29
>
>
>
> I think you're going to have serious problems in July & August. My
> Tank gets virtually no natural sunlight, yet I lost some fish when the
> temperature went up to 100% F last summer.
>
> I have a Juwel tank, so I opened both feeding flaps and played
> a fan over the water surface. This dramatically reduced the temperature
> and I lost no more fish. Evaporation runs at about 2-3 gallons a week, but
> I change 25-33% of the tank water every week anyway.
>
> But with your tank in a West facing window I don't think this will be
> enough, especially if you've already lost fish. Have you considered
> screening the tank from sunlight during the day. A simple screen
> would make a huge difference and keep algae down ?
>
> Most of the deaths BTW are from lack of oxygen, not cooking :-)
> Hot water holds less O2 than cold water, so keeping the number
> of fish in the tank down really helps.
>
What I did was kept extra aquarium water in the refrigerator and
replaced aquarium water with the chilled water. Fill up a jug of
aquarium water and put in fridge, and take a chilled one out and dump it
in the aquarium. I was able to keep my temp at decent level doing
this twice a day. Plus a fan on the aquarium also helps. Not the best
way to do it, but it is a lot cheaper than buying a chiller unit.

[Joe Crowder]

"Velvet" > wrote in message
...
> Geoff Kemp wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Given the recent warm weather in the SE of the UK (north essex), I`ve
been
> > having a few problems keeping a constant temperature in my 65 litre
tank.
> > It is kept in a west facing room, and in the evening it get very warm,
given
> > the amount of insulation in the house. I`ve noticed a different in
> > temperature ranging from 25 (first thing in the morning) up to around 29
> > (early evening /later afternoon). I have had two confimred casuities,
and
> > possibly two more. To which end I have checked my parameters and these
seem
> > stable (ph 7.6, kh 15dkh, GH 16 dkh, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10, NH4 0).
> >
> > I can get a fan to move the air around the tank, however this will be
about
> > 2 metres away. I also work shifts, so on some days during the warmest
part,
> > I may not be here to make any water changes during the warmest part of
the
> > day (note however I *do* carry out my regualr water changes,
approximatly
> > every 6 days).
> >
> > I would be able to place a standard Fan closer to the aquarium, that was
an
> > option, as I could pick one up quite easily and cheaply, have it a lot
> > closer.
> >
> > Any other suggestions ??
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > Geoff
> >
> >
>
> I'd say that you might want to look at upping the general temp of the
> tank by a couple of degrees on a permanent basis (gradually) thus
> lessening the daily swing of the temp.
>
> I have a community tank, and even in the height of summer last year had
> no deaths, with the tank regularly at 31-33C during the day (in a room
> that faces both south-east and north-west - double aspect). The tank
> gets no direct sunlight.
>
> Of late, it's been sat at around that temp off and on (faulty heaterstat
> gradually getting worse) and again no fatalities.
>
> I have a well planted (well, it was until the latest bout of high temps
> in it, coupled with a frisky pair of breeding angelfish) tank which I
> think helps keep the O2 levels up in the water in the heat too.
>
> Keep the curtains closed on that room to help stop the temp buildup in
> the first place, bubble extra air through the tank. What others have
> said about the air blowing across the top is right, that's the best way
> to achieve cooling, but you'll also have to keep up the water changes to
> stop excessive loss through evap, and also reduce the minerals etc left
> behind.
>
> If you can get extra air vents in the hood then do that, think about
> maybe reducing the lights that are on at peak temp time.
>
> Fish should be fairly resilient if they're common-or-garden(ish)
> tropicals, as long as you let them get used to the higher temp
> gradually, which is why I suggested upping the temp by 2C of the tank as
> a base line for it.
>
> Am presuming you don't have ammonia present in the tank, I can't
> remember if ammonia gets more nasty at a higher temp or not, it's been a
> while since I've had to worry about that in mine.
>
> --
>
>
> Velvet

If you are pretty clever with plumbing, you may be able to set up a sump in
a cooler part of the house and set up a continuous pumped loop. That's
probably overkill though.

How is the tank heating up? If it is direct solar radiation, blackout
curtains or even heavy curtains will help quite a bit. If the whole room is
heating up, then open a door to the rest of the house and turn on a fan to
circulate the air with the rest of the house. If your windows are open, and
the whole house is heating up to the 30's, then I bet your only option is to
raise the tank temperature on a seasonal basis as mentioned before.

HTH
Joe

[Edward Cowling]

"Chuck" > wrote in message
. ..
> What I did was kept extra aquarium water in the refrigerator and
> replaced aquarium water with the chilled water. Fill up a jug of
> aquarium water and put in fridge, and take a chilled one out and dump it
> in the aquarium. I was able to keep my temp at decent level doing
> this twice a day.

This is probably the worse thing you can do. In the wild the
ponds the fish live in can reach very high temperatures during
the day and surprisingly low temperatures at night. The fish
survive because the change is gradual. The thing that stresses
them and can cause death is a sudden change.

Like dumping chilled water in the tank :-)

--
Edward Cowling - London - UK

[Cardman]

On Thu, 20 May 2004 10:08:43 +0100, "Geoff Kemp"
> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Given the recent warm weather in the SE of the UK (north essex), I`ve been
>having a few problems keeping a constant temperature in my 65 litre tank.
>It is kept in a west facing room, and in the evening it get very warm, given
>the amount of insulation in the house. I`ve noticed a different in
>temperature ranging from 25 (first thing in the morning) up to around 29
>(early evening /later afternoon).

Since I live not too far from you in Maidstone in Kent, then I can say
that my main aquarium is currently achieving the same heat swings.

However, I have had no heat related problems at all. And in fact
during the major heat wave of last year my aquarium went up to over 32
degrees C. I cannot say the exact temperature, when this value is off
of my thermometer range.

>I have had two confimred casuities, and possibly two more.

I believe your problem is not a heat one. Lack of oxygen would be
number one guess, but there are many other factors.

The oxygen level in my aquarium is excellent. When both my power head
and a second air pump provide oxygen. Not to forget that my power head
provides plenty of water circulation.

>To which end I have checked my parameters and these seem
>stable (ph 7.6, kh 15dkh, GH 16 dkh, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10, NH4 0).

Maybe you have lime scale in your water supply as well? Based on those
pH and KH values. Still, your Nitrate levels are a lot less than mine,
when it comes out of my tap at 50.

>I can get a fan to move the air around the tank, however this will be about
>2 metres away. I also work shifts, so on some days during the warmest part,
>I may not be here to make any water changes during the warmest part of the
>day (note however I *do* carry out my regualr water changes, approximatly
>every 6 days).

A fan is an air cooling system, where I doubt that it works too well
for water. As pointed out by another poster heat is removed by
evaporation, where ideally your room should be kept at a lower
temperature.

In other words leave a couple of windows open. Not to mention allowing
this water to evaporate out of the aquarium. In other words no
condensation tray.

I would strongly NOT recommend removing the aquarium lid, when fish
will jump out of the aquarium simply for the hell of it.

>Any other suggestions ??

Make sure that your aquarium has enough oxygen, when the conditions
and symptoms would be the same as with too much heat. And since my
fish have no heat problems with even higher temperatures...

Cardman.

[Geoff Kemp]

> Make sure that your aquarium has enough oxygen, when the conditions
> and symptoms would be the same as with too much heat. And since my
> fish have no heat problems with even higher temperatures...

Ok,

IIRC I read somewhere that warmer water cannot hold it`s oxygen as well as
cooler water. I had an air line coming in from my filter (Fluval 2 plus),
though would you recommend adding an Airstone. I spoke to several people
when first starting out, and they said an airstone wasn`t really required as
you could use the output from the filter to break the surface tension of the
water and oxygenate that way. I`m going out at the weekend do do some "fish
shopping" (sundries etc.) so may enquire then.

So are there any bad brands of Air pump to avoid or good ones to go with ??

Thanks in advance.

Geoff

[Cardman]

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:31:09 +0100, "Geoff Kemp"
> wrote:

>> Make sure that your aquarium has enough oxygen, when the conditions
>> and symptoms would be the same as with too much heat. And since my
>> fish have no heat problems with even higher temperatures...
>
>Ok,
>
>IIRC I read somewhere that warmer water cannot hold it`s oxygen as well as
>cooler water.

That is true, but the temperature changes here would not make for a
large difference.

If I understand the physics here correctly, then heat is reflective of
the energy level in the water. Where the greater the energy the faster
the H2O atoms move around the O atoms, where this Oxygen then rises
and escapes.

>I had an air line coming in from my filter (Fluval 2 plus),
>though would you recommend adding an Airstone.

The key factor for oxygenating water is to breakup the bubbles as much
as possible. In this respect an air stone works well, even though most
bubbles go straight to the surface.

Better yet is an air wall and to divide the air between multiple
outputs.

Hopefully that it not your only air input, where a problem could
certainly be found if this is not working well. Not to mention a
reduced air input when the filter starts to get blocked.

>I spoke to several people
>when first starting out, and they said an airstone wasn`t really required as
>you could use the output from the filter to break the surface tension of the
>water and oxygenate that way.

That is a basic system that is only suitable for a low number of fish
in your aquarium. As once your aquarium starts to get full, then I
doubt that it would be suitable.

And I don't think that it can really compare to the air input provided
by a good pump and a simple air stone.

I am sure that you could greatly improve your current system just by
oxygenating this water before you blast it into your aquarium. I
believe they call that device a spray bar.

And I recall that they should do these for your Fluval filter.

>I`m going out at the weekend do do some "fish
>shopping" (sundries etc.) so may enquire then.

In my aquarium I always try to use two different types of filters and
two types of air input. As with a single system a failure of one of
those two items can soon kill your fish.

Many people would recommend two heaters as well. However, since I have
never had one fail, and my house is usually hotter than the preferred
level of the aquarium water, then I have never yet had the need.

>So are there any bad brands of Air pump to avoid or good ones to go with ??

I currently have a Tetratec AP80 that works great. My previous Rena
Air 50 is not even powerful enough to push air down the bottom of the
aquarium.

Maybe it just got old or something.

>Thanks in advance.

I would say that you are in good odds that increased air input into
your aquarium could well solve this problem.

Cardman.

[Marcel Beaudoin]

Cardman > wrote in
:

> If I understand the physics here correctly, then heat is reflective of
> the energy level in the water. Where the greater the energy the faster
> the H2O atoms move around the O atoms, where this Oxygen then rises
> and escapes.

Close, but you have it backwards. As the heat rises, the oxygen molecules
have more energy and then move from a dissolved state to a gaseous state.

Marcel

[Dick]

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:31:09 +0100, "Geoff Kemp"
> wrote:

>> Make sure that your aquarium has enough oxygen, when the conditions
>> and symptoms would be the same as with too much heat. And since my
>> fish have no heat problems with even higher temperatures...
>
>Ok,
>
>IIRC I read somewhere that warmer water cannot hold it`s oxygen as well as
>cooler water. I had an air line coming in from my filter (Fluval 2 plus),
>though would you recommend adding an Airstone. I spoke to several people
>when first starting out, and they said an airstone wasn`t really required as
>you could use the output from the filter to break the surface tension of the
>water and oxygenate that way. I`m going out at the weekend do do some "fish
>shopping" (sundries etc.) so may enquire then.
>
>So are there any bad brands of Air pump to avoid or good ones to go with ??
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Geoff
>
In another post on heat, a fellow rigged a computer fan with the air
flow directed acroos the top of the water. He said it reduced the
temperature several degrees. I think a bubbler would increase the
heat release as the air bubbles move water above the surface to expose
more heat to be removed. I also believe increasing the water mixing
is good to reduce hot and cold spots. I know the power filters are
breaking up the surface, but I like the notion of motion starting from
the bottom.

I have 4 tanks and 4 different pumps. They are all noisy. Some noise
reduction by putting the pump on top of a foam pad. Put inside a
cabinet if possible. On larger pumps I release unneeded air making
the pump work less and ofter quieter.

dick

[Dark Phoenix]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> I have 4 tanks and 4 different pumps. They are all noisy. Some noise
> reduction by putting the pump on top of a foam pad. Put inside a
> cabinet if possible. On larger pumps I release unneeded air making
> the pump work less and ofter quieter.
>

I've got mine hanging by the cord (I know, not supposed to hang things by
cords) and it helps the racket quite a lot- you always know when it gets
moved and touches anything. Hanging properly, the filter splash pretty much
drowns it out.

--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix

Error. Install universe and reboot.