Heater goes haywire

[KurtG]

I just pulled a heater out of my sump. It was 82.8 and it was still
heating.

How often do these go haywire? There seems to be lots of stories of run
away devices. You'd think they could design them to fail by turning off
rather then on.

I certainly like my digital thermometer w/ an alarm. I think it just
earned the $10 I spent on it.

--Kurt

[George Patterson]

KurtG wrote:

> How often do these go haywire?

That depends. I used to have heaters made by Supreme. These had, as many others
do, "thermostats" that were metallic expansion segments which separated a pair
of electrical contacts. The general idea is that the segments will expand as
they heat up and force the contacts apart. That cuts off the power to the
heating coils.

These things had a nasty reputation for sticking; almost always in the "on"
position. It became a not-so-fun game to try to replace the thermostat before it
went bad. I replaced my heaters years ago with the "Tronic" brand, which have an
electronic thermostat. I've been told that, when these fail, they tend to fail
in the "off" position. Mine have not failed in over ten years, but they do seem
to need adjustment every few months these days (they didn't when I first bought
them).

Once burned, twice careful, though. I still keep two heaters on my tank. Each
one is about half the size the tank really needs. If one goes haywire, it's not
large enough to really boil anybody. I wouldn't be adverse to using three, if
that's what it takes to keep everyone alive.

The Supremes used to go bad about every three to five years.

George Patterson
No one ever says "It's only a game." when his team is winning.

[No Spam]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:ZJywh.14566$RJ4.928@trnddc08...
> KurtG wrote:
>
>> How often do these go haywire?
>
> That depends. I used to have heaters made by Supreme. These had, as many
> others do, "thermostats" that were metallic expansion segments which
> separated a pair of electrical contacts. The general idea is that the
> segments will expand as they heat up and force the contacts apart. That
> cuts off the power to the heating coils.
>
> These things had a nasty reputation for sticking; almost always in the
> "on" position. It became a not-so-fun game to try to replace the
> thermostat before it went bad. I replaced my heaters years ago with the
> "Tronic" brand, which have an electronic thermostat. I've been told that,
> when these fail, they tend to fail in the "off" position. Mine have not
> failed in over ten years, but they do seem to need adjustment every few
> months these days (they didn't when I first bought them).
>
> Once burned, twice careful, though. I still keep two heaters on my tank.
> Each one is about half the size the tank really needs. If one goes
> haywire, it's not large enough to really boil anybody. I wouldn't be
> adverse to using three, if that's what it takes to keep everyone alive.
>
> The Supremes used to go bad about every three to five years.
>
> George Patterson
> No one ever says "It's only a game." when his team is winning.

Another option is to put them on a controller of some sorts. All mine are
plugged into my Reefkeepers or Reefkeeper 2`s. They will operate normally
until it hits its set thermostat setting. If for some reason it sticks on
the Reefkeepers will shut that power plug down at a pre-set temp and shut it
off. I have mine set 2 degrees above the heaters set point. Its like a
double safety switch in case of failure.
I had a friend that had a 200 watt model stick on and it turned his tank
into a cooked marine based soup. Not pretty nor pleasingly aromatic in the
end...

[KurtG]

No Spam wrote:
> Another option is to put them on a controller of some sorts. All mine are
> plugged into my Reefkeepers or Reefkeeper 2`s.

Great idea. I was thinking of how to design something like this, but
then quickly came to the conclusion that it would need to be a
controller of some sort.

Thanks for the recommendation on reefkeepers. That looks like a
reasonable solution for less money then I'd expect.

--Kurt

[Pszemol]

"KurtG" > wrote in message .. .
> No Spam wrote:
>> Another option is to put them on a controller of some sorts. All mine are
>> plugged into my Reefkeepers or Reefkeeper 2`s.
>
> Great idea. I was thinking of how to design something like this, but
> then quickly came to the conclusion that it would need to be a
> controller of some sort.
>
> Thanks for the recommendation on reefkeepers. That looks like a
> reasonable solution for less money then I'd expect.

With even less money you could go with old trusty solution
to use two smaller heaters instead of one big one.
There is very little chance that both heaters fail at the same time.
So one failed heater will not create a disaster in the tank
and with your current termometer you will detect the temperatrue off
the limit and replace the failed heater - no expensive controller
necessary..

[KurtG]

Pszemol wrote:
> With even less money you could go with old trusty solution
> to use two smaller heaters instead of one big one.

I already have that going. Problem is that I travel a lot and I'm not
sure my house sitter will be able to diagnose the problem should it arise.

--Kurt

[No Spam]

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "KurtG" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> No Spam wrote:
>>> Another option is to put them on a controller of some sorts. All mine
>>> are plugged into my Reefkeepers or Reefkeeper 2`s.
>>
>> Great idea. I was thinking of how to design something like this, but
>> then quickly came to the conclusion that it would need to be a controller
>> of some sort.
>>
>> Thanks for the recommendation on reefkeepers. That looks like a
>> reasonable solution for less money then I'd expect.
>
> With even less money you could go with old trusty solution
> to use two smaller heaters instead of one big one.
> There is very little chance that both heaters fail at the same time.
> So one failed heater will not create a disaster in the tank
> and with your current termometer you will detect the temperatrue off
> the limit and replace the failed heater - no expensive controller
> necessary..

Agreed there also but look at all the other things a controller can help
with. It cost more but the Reefkeeper 2 will shut the lights off if over
tank if temp gets too high also. It will then kick them back on after
episode is over. You can control lights, heaters, chillers, fans, power( has
wavemaker control), PH control function, feed mode and gets rid of all those
pesky power strips..
To me it was worth the cost for all the safety features like heater control
and all the other controls. I have a calcium reactor that uses the PH
function on it also on one tank. If PH gets out of wack the controller shuts
off the regulator and stops it. On other smaller tank if PH gets high it
shuts down my Kalk Reactor.

If you go this route you can put the money from the cost of a smaller
secondary heater to the cost of the controller....LOL

Been using them for 2 yrs on my tanks and have never had a malfunction on
either due to heat or PH swings/malfunctions.

[Tristan]

I ofund out a long time ago the biggest weak link in a setup be it
fresh or salt is the heater.......MOst SW will continue on if lights
go oout or if a p[ump or p ower head fials as they usually have more
than one pump or powehead, but a heater that fails to keep a tank
warm enough or one that boils the inhabitands is sure not good to
have. I use a separate temperature ocntrol unit anymore on all my
tanks. Expensive....yes and no......Its not as expensive as some of
the fish or corals we buy are, so when yu consider the value of corals
and fish in a tank, they are really cheap to buy for peace of mind.

I use the Aqua Logic Digital Temp controls that AES sells for a bit
more than $100. I set the temp onthe controller to what I want, turn
up heater to that point or just a bit above,or even on HI, and plug
it into the controller, drop controllers sensor and the heater into
the tank, turn it all on and for the most paart ignore it. Its got a
digiotal display to indicate settings and temp of tank or even air. I
played with one of these controllers to turn on my fans automatically,
but then came up with a schematic for a thermistor (I think thats the
right term) to control my fans...)which worked fine, but I have since
lost track of my schematic...as I think working of water temp would be
a better more accurate method than working off air temp..... and my
unit has died, and I am not that electronics savy) anyway any decent
quality heater controled by Aqua Logic controller is pretty darn
reliable and bullet proof........lots more so than the controls found
in a typical heater.

I use the TC11 mainly but do have two TC12's in use as well, as they
control other devices like my home brew chiller etc.


I use the
On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:46:21 -0500, KurtG
> wrote:

<<>>
<<>>I just pulled a heater out of my sump. It was 82.8 and it was still
<<>>heating.
<<>>
<<>>How often do these go haywire? There seems to be lots of stories of run
<<>>away devices. You'd think they could design them to fail by turning off
<<>>rather then on.
<<>>
<<>>I certainly like my digital thermometer w/ an alarm. I think it just
<<>>earned the $10 I spent on it.
<<>>
<<>>--Kurt



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

[Tristan]

Yep, lots of heavy rains last night and also this morning.
Ah, that home brew chiller is not a chiller to keep my home brew cold
but a DIY homebrew chiller for an aquarium ;-)

Home brew is good!



On Fri, 02 Feb 2007 14:57:08 -0500, KurtG
> wrote:

<<>>Tristan wrote:
<<>>> I use the TC11 mainly but do have two TC12's in use as well, as they
<<>>> control other devices like my home brew chiller etc.
<<>>
<<>>I'll have to see this setup. And, sample the home brew....
<<>>
<<>>Any rain your way? We had some t-boomers last night that chased out the
<<>>cold air, but nothing like the folks in Lake County had.
<<>>
<<>>--Kurt



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

[KurtG]

Tristan wrote:
> I use the TC11 mainly but do have two TC12's in use as well, as they
> control other devices like my home brew chiller etc.

I'll have to see this setup. And, sample the home brew....

Any rain your way? We had some t-boomers last night that chased out the
cold air, but nothing like the folks in Lake County had.

--Kurt

[No Spam]

"Tristan" > wrote in message
...
>I ofund out a long time ago the biggest weak link in a setup be it
> fresh or salt is the heater.......MOst SW will continue on if lights
> go oout or if a p[ump or p ower head fials as they usually have more
> than one pump or powehead, but a heater that fails to keep a tank
> warm enough or one that boils the inhabitands is sure not good to
> have. I use a separate temperature ocntrol unit anymore on all my
> tanks. Expensive....yes and no......Its not as expensive as some of
> the fish or corals we buy are, so when yu consider the value of corals
> and fish in a tank, they are really cheap to buy for peace of mind.
>
> I use the Aqua Logic Digital Temp controls that AES sells for a bit
> more than $100. I set the temp onthe controller to what I want, turn
> up heater to that point or just a bit above,or even on HI, and plug
> it into the controller, drop controllers sensor and the heater into
> the tank, turn it all on and for the most paart ignore it. Its got a
> digiotal display to indicate settings and temp of tank or even air. I
> played with one of these controllers to turn on my fans automatically,
> but then came up with a schematic for a thermistor (I think thats the
> right term) to control my fans...)which worked fine, but I have since
> lost track of my schematic...as I think working of water temp would be
> a better more accurate method than working off air temp..... and my
> unit has died, and I am not that electronics savy) anyway any decent
> quality heater controled by Aqua Logic controller is pretty darn
> reliable and bullet proof........lots more so than the controls found
> in a typical heater.
>
> I use the TC11 mainly but do have two TC12's in use as well, as they
> control other devices like my home brew chiller etc.
>
>
> I use the
> On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:46:21 -0500, KurtG
> > wrote:
>
> <<>>
> <<>>I just pulled a heater out of my sump. It was 82.8 and it was still
> <<>>heating.
> <<>>
> <<>>How often do these go haywire? There seems to be lots of stories of
> run
> <<>>away devices. You'd think they could design them to fail by turning
> off
> <<>>rather then on.
> <<>>
> <<>>I certainly like my digital thermometer w/ an alarm. I think it just
> <<>>earned the $10 I spent on it.
> <<>>
> <<>>--Kurt
>
>
>
> -------
> I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Tristan,
You nailed it on the head
"Its not as expensive as some of
the fish or corals we buy are, so when you consider the value of corals
and fish in a tank, they are really cheap to buy for peace of mind."

I personally have thousands tied up in my 3 tanks with rock, corals, fish,
inverts and etc. A few hundred bucks is very cheap insurance against losing
it all due to a stuck heater, chiller or etc. My wife wasn't thrilled at the
costs when I first started yrs ago with of all these gadgets but after
seeing a few crashes due to something staying on or off she understands all
too well now. She actually is the one that requested on our new house that
we had an automated whole house generator be integrated into the build.

Makes you feel better having back ups if you are away from the tank allot
for travel, vacations or etc and no one is watching them all day.

[Wayne Sallee]

Also if you see condensation in the heater, then
it's time to change it. Moisture will cause
corrosions of the electrical contacts. and the
corrosion will cause them to stick.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


KurtG wrote on 2/1/2007 10:46 PM:
>
> I just pulled a heater out of my sump. It was 82.8 and it was still
> heating.
>
> How often do these go haywire? There seems to be lots of stories of run
> away devices. You'd think they could design them to fail by turning off
> rather then on.
>
> I certainly like my digital thermometer w/ an alarm. I think it just
> earned the $10 I spent on it.
>
> --Kurt

[Tristan]

Like I posted in a previous post. The price of a simple electronic
temp controller is dirt cheap compared to whata prices we pay for the
critters in our tanks, and a well made reliable unit can be had for
about $105 from Aquatic Eco Systems in Florida. Lacking the funds to
buy the temp controller, its best to divide the required heater
wattage amount in half and use two heaters to achieve the needed
wattage, as this will reduce or at least delay overheating and also
help with allowing a tank to get too cold if one of th eheaters
happens to fail.

An alarm is nice, as is a gen set in power outages, but it does
little good if your not there when it activates or the power goes off!
;-)


Its thematerials they make the bi metal switch out of. They use IIRC
positive co-efficient materials as they are cheaper, and requires less
parts etc to make it work. We had temp controls on aircraft that used
negative coefficient parts and they were about 4 times the price of
what a positive coefficient unit was. Last thing you would want is the
aircraft heater to stick on in a sinfle seat fighter aircraft ;-) YOu
can always drop down in altitude and point canonpy to sun to warm up a
bit, but cooling down is much harder to do when oiy have 1100 deg
bleed air pouring into thatsmall cockpit space.... I guess thats why
we only pay about $20 bucks for a name brand heater in most cases.....


On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 01:38:22 GMT, Wayne Sallee >
wrote:

<<>>Also if you see condensation in the heater, then
<<>>it's time to change it. Moisture will cause
<<>>corrosions of the electrical contacts. and the
<<>>corrosion will cause them to stick.
<<>>
<<>>Wayne Sallee
<<>>Wayne's Pets

<<>>
<<>>KurtG wrote on 2/1/2007 10:46 PM:
<<>>>
<<>>> I just pulled a heater out of my sump. It was 82.8 and it was still
<<>>> heating.
<<>>>
<<>>> How often do these go haywire? There seems to be lots of stories of run
<<>>> away devices. You'd think they could design them to fail by turning off
<<>>> rather then on.
<<>>>
<<>>> I certainly like my digital thermometer w/ an alarm. I think it just
<<>>> earned the $10 I spent on it.
<<>>>
<<>>> --Kurt



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!