Platys Mollies and other live bearers

[McEve]

When I was young - about a hundred years ago - I worked in a pet shop. At
that time we always used salt in the water for the Mollies, as they were
said to benfit from it, in fact wouldn't thrive without! Now I see the LFS
put salt in the tanks of all live bearers. Is this really necessary? I have
2 platys that are in great shape, and thrive in my fish soup of a tank, and
I never put salt in that tank.

Reason I'm asking is that I'd like more Platys, but are reluctant to buy
speciments that have gotten used to quite large quantites of salt in the
water in the shop. I happened to be there while they put the weekly dosage
in the tanks of the live bearers, and we're talking about a litre of salt
in 60 liters of water! Has it slowly developed to a fact that all live
bearers need salt, and not just the Mollies as time has passed, or didn't we
know any better back then?

Do I need to be concerned about their ability to adjust to life without
salt? And is it really necessary to put all that salt in the water for live
bearers other than Mollies?

[NetMax]

"McEve" > wrote in message
...
> When I was young - about a hundred years ago - I worked in a pet shop.
At
> that time we always used salt in the water for the Mollies, as they
were
> said to benfit from it, in fact wouldn't thrive without! Now I see the
LFS
> put salt in the tanks of all live bearers. Is this really necessary? I
have
> 2 platys that are in great shape, and thrive in my fish soup of a tank,
and
> I never put salt in that tank.

It would probably vary by LFS and by the farmers growing the fish.
Freshwater Guppies are available to the trade.

> Reason I'm asking is that I'd like more Platys, but are reluctant to
buy
> speciments that have gotten used to quite large quantites of salt in
the
> water in the shop. I happened to be there while they put the weekly
dosage
> in the tanks of the live bearers, and we're talking about a litre of
salt
> in 60 liters of water! Has it slowly developed to a fact that all live
> bearers need salt, and not just the Mollies as time has passed, or
didn't we
> know any better back then?

Other than the Mollys, their dependance on salt is probably artificial.
Raising livebearers in very hot salty water benefits the growers in 2
ways. The combination of salt & heat reduces the number of pathogens
which will survive (less bacterial and viral diseases) and increases
their metabolism and appetite, (so they grow faster).

> Do I need to be concerned about their ability to adjust to life without
> salt? And is it really necessary to put all that salt in the water for
live
> bearers other than Mollies?

Yes, and now, yes (until acclimated). You can try to get them off salt
slowly, but for livebearers born in brackish water, I think your best
success will be with their fry.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> "McEve" > wrote in message
> ...
> > When I was young - about a hundred years ago - I worked in a pet
shop.
> At
> > that time we always used salt in the water for the Mollies, as they
> were
> > said to benfit from it, in fact wouldn't thrive without! Now I see
the
> LFS
> > put salt in the tanks of all live bearers. Is this really necessary?
I
> have
> > 2 platys that are in great shape, and thrive in my fish soup of a
tank,
> and
> > I never put salt in that tank.
>
> It would probably vary by LFS and by the farmers growing the fish.
> Freshwater Guppies are available to the trade.
>
> > Reason I'm asking is that I'd like more Platys, but are reluctant to
> buy
> > speciments that have gotten used to quite large quantites of salt in
> the
> > water in the shop. I happened to be there while they put the weekly
> dosage
> > in the tanks of the live bearers, and we're talking about a litre of
> salt
> > in 60 liters of water! Has it slowly developed to a fact that all
live
> > bearers need salt, and not just the Mollies as time has passed, or
> didn't we
> > know any better back then?
>
> Other than the Mollys, their dependance on salt is probably artificial.
> Raising livebearers in very hot salty water benefits the growers in 2
> ways. The combination of salt & heat reduces the number of pathogens
> which will survive (less bacterial and viral diseases) and increases
> their metabolism and appetite, (so they grow faster).
>
> > Do I need to be concerned about their ability to adjust to life
without
> > salt? And is it really necessary to put all that salt in the water
for
> live
> > bearers other than Mollies?
>
> Yes, and now, yes (until acclimated). You can try to get them off salt
> slowly, but for livebearers born in brackish water, I think your best
> success will be with their fry.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk

OK, I just did a little experiment. I have these five 20g tanks, and the
water is soft 3dgH, 3dkH and 7.7pH (not exactly paradise for
livebearers). I usually put 1/2 cup marine salt into a 60g tank, but I'd
put 1 full cup of marine salt into each 20g tank. That's 48 teaspoons or
2.4 teaspoons per gallon. I then stocked the tanks with Guppies (that
I'd had for several weeks are were very sickly), Balloon Mollies &
assorted Swordtails (which I'd had for many weeks and were very healthy
but acclimated to 100% freshwater), and Saffron Mollies & Starburst
Platys (new delivery from Singapore).

It's only been six days, but so far I have no regrets. The Guppies don't
look better or worst but haven't been dying (which is an improvement).
The freshwater acclimated livebearers haven't missed a beat (appetite
activity colouration all excellent). Most surprising is that the new
arrivals look really great. Lost two within a day, but those didn't look
good at arrival, and the delivery was about 100 fish.

This experiment is working out nicely, but 2 problems. I took those
tanks off-line so the automatic water changer would not dilute the
salinity. I'll need to make up a manual schedule with a salt
replenishment program. The 2nd problem is what to do next. I can post a
sign so customers know that they are in brackish water (I think this
concentration is brackish). I'd like to acclimate them to freshwater,
but with all the fish deliveries every week, I cannot coordinate the
acclimation of several tanks at different stages.

I'm open to ideas. I might try to adjust the salinity downwards. I
think I'm at around .24% right now, and if I can get the same results at
..1% then acclimation to freshwater will be easier for customers.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dick]

On Mon, 24 May 2004 22:22:01 +0200, "McEve" > wrote:

>When I was young - about a hundred years ago - I worked in a pet shop. At
>that time we always used salt in the water for the Mollies, as they were
>said to benfit from it, in fact wouldn't thrive without! Now I see the LFS
>put salt in the tanks of all live bearers. Is this really necessary? I have
>2 platys that are in great shape, and thrive in my fish soup of a tank, and
>I never put salt in that tank.
>
>Reason I'm asking is that I'd like more Platys, but are reluctant to buy
>speciments that have gotten used to quite large quantites of salt in the
>water in the shop. I happened to be there while they put the weekly dosage
>in the tanks of the live bearers, and we're talking about a litre of salt
>in 60 liters of water! Has it slowly developed to a fact that all live
>bearers need salt, and not just the Mollies as time has passed, or didn't we
>know any better back then?
>
>Do I need to be concerned about their ability to adjust to life without
>salt? And is it really necessary to put all that salt in the water for live
>bearers other than Mollies?
>

I think you are being too careful. The fish the store sells are not
likely to go to homes that add salt. The store would have gone out of
business if large number of fish had trouble. So, I would conclude
that the fish are able to make the adjustment. Get a couple of
females and a pretty male. I be you will have all the Platties you
want with in a few months.

[NetMax]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 24 May 2004 22:22:01 +0200, "McEve" > wrote:
>
> >When I was young - about a hundred years ago - I worked in a pet shop.
At
> >that time we always used salt in the water for the Mollies, as they
were
> >said to benfit from it, in fact wouldn't thrive without! Now I see the
LFS
> >put salt in the tanks of all live bearers. Is this really necessary? I
have
> >2 platys that are in great shape, and thrive in my fish soup of a
tank, and
> >I never put salt in that tank.
> >
> >Reason I'm asking is that I'd like more Platys, but are reluctant to
buy
> >speciments that have gotten used to quite large quantites of salt in
the
> >water in the shop. I happened to be there while they put the weekly
dosage
> >in the tanks of the live bearers, and we're talking about a litre of
salt
> >in 60 liters of water! Has it slowly developed to a fact that all live
> >bearers need salt, and not just the Mollies as time has passed, or
didn't we
> >know any better back then?
> >
> >Do I need to be concerned about their ability to adjust to life
without
> >salt? And is it really necessary to put all that salt in the water for
live
> >bearers other than Mollies?
> >
>
> I think you are being too careful. The fish the store sells are not
> likely to go to homes that add salt. The store would have gone out of
> business if large number of fish had trouble. So, I would conclude
> that the fish are able to make the adjustment.

Your conclusion is incorrect. The business model for some of the chain
operations does not require *any* profits from the live fish dept. The
profits are from people buying pet food & paraphenalia. The fish are
loss leaders. This is why the mom& pops went under. As remarkable (and
cynical) as it may sound, they would have no problem with all their
Platys dying, provided they lived a few weeks and they sold a few. You
don't have to believe me, but I'm in the trade (fortunately not in one of
those chains) and there have also been posters who have worked with and
seen this going on.

On this topic, I verified today with one of my importers (who travels to
the far-east), that off-shore breeders are keeping all their livebearers
in 4 to 5 grams of salt per litre of water. I think that is 19 grams per
US gallon (or 3.8 US teaspoons /g). Whether your LFS knows it or not,
this is probably what their livebearers were born and raised in.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Get a couple of
> females and a pretty male. I be you will have all the Platties you
> want with in a few months.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Platys Mollies and other live bearers
>From: "NetMax"
>Date: 6/3/2004 10:10 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 24 May 2004 22:22:01 +0200, "McEve" > wrote:
>>
>> >When I was young - about a hundred years ago - I worked in a pet shop.
>At
>> >that time we always used salt in the water for the Mollies, as they
>were
>> >said to benfit from it, in fact wouldn't thrive without! Now I see the
>LFS
>> >put salt in the tanks of all live bearers. Is this really necessary? I
>have
>> >2 platys that are in great shape, and thrive in my fish soup of a
>tank, and
>> >I never put salt in that tank.
>> >
>> >Reason I'm asking is that I'd like more Platys, but are reluctant to
>buy
>> >speciments that have gotten used to quite large quantites of salt in
>the
>> >water in the shop. I happened to be there while they put the weekly
>dosage
>> >in the tanks of the live bearers, and we're talking about a litre of
>salt
>> >in 60 liters of water! Has it slowly developed to a fact that all live
>> >bearers need salt, and not just the Mollies as time has passed, or
>didn't we
>> >know any better back then?
>> >
>> >Do I need to be concerned about their ability to adjust to life
>without
>> >salt? And is it really necessary to put all that salt in the water for
>live
>> >bearers other than Mollies?
>> >
>>
>> I think you are being too careful. The fish the store sells are not
>> likely to go to homes that add salt. The store would have gone out of
>> business if large number of fish had trouble. So, I would conclude
>> that the fish are able to make the adjustment.
>
>Your conclusion is incorrect. The business model for some of the chain
>operations does not require *any* profits from the live fish dept. The
>profits are from people buying pet food & paraphenalia. The fish are
>loss leaders. This is why the mom& pops went under. As remarkable (and
>cynical) as it may sound, they would have no problem with all their
>Platys dying, provided they lived a few weeks and they sold a few. You
>don't have to believe me, but I'm in the trade (fortunately not in one of
>those chains) and there have also been posters who have worked with and
>seen this going on.
>
>On this topic, I verified today with one of my importers (who travels to
>the far-east), that off-shore breeders are keeping all their livebearers
>in 4 to 5 grams of salt per litre of water. I think that is 19 grams per
>US gallon (or 3.8 US teaspoons /g). Whether your LFS knows it or not,
>this is probably what their livebearers were born and raised in.
>--
>www.NetMax.tk

Got that right, NetMax!
This is the major prob with fancy Gups.
They're bornand raised in water with a good amoutn of salt in it, shipped
here...and quickly die after being put into 100% fresh water. The fry that are
born before the females die off are usually ok...but that's if they give birth
before they kick the bucket.

[Dick]

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:10:07 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 24 May 2004 22:22:01 +0200, "McEve" > wrote:
>>
>> >When I was young - about a hundred years ago - I worked in a pet shop.
>At
>> >that time we always used salt in the water for the Mollies, as they
>were
>> >said to benfit from it, in fact wouldn't thrive without! Now I see the
>LFS
>> >put salt in the tanks of all live bearers. Is this really necessary? I
>have
>> >2 platys that are in great shape, and thrive in my fish soup of a
>tank, and
>> >I never put salt in that tank.
>> >
>> >Reason I'm asking is that I'd like more Platys, but are reluctant to
>buy
>> >speciments that have gotten used to quite large quantites of salt in
>the
>> >water in the shop. I happened to be there while they put the weekly
>dosage
>> >in the tanks of the live bearers, and we're talking about a litre of
>salt
>> >in 60 liters of water! Has it slowly developed to a fact that all live
>> >bearers need salt, and not just the Mollies as time has passed, or
>didn't we
>> >know any better back then?
>> >
>> >Do I need to be concerned about their ability to adjust to life
>without
>> >salt? And is it really necessary to put all that salt in the water for
>live
>> >bearers other than Mollies?
>> >
>>
>> I think you are being too careful. The fish the store sells are not
>> likely to go to homes that add salt. The store would have gone out of
>> business if large number of fish had trouble. So, I would conclude
>> that the fish are able to make the adjustment.
>
>Your conclusion is incorrect. The business model for some of the chain
>operations does not require *any* profits from the live fish dept. The
>profits are from people buying pet food & paraphenalia. The fish are
>loss leaders. This is why the mom& pops went under. As remarkable (and
>cynical) as it may sound, they would have no problem with all their
>Platys dying, provided they lived a few weeks and they sold a few. You
>don't have to believe me, but I'm in the trade (fortunately not in one of
>those chains) and there have also been posters who have worked with and
>seen this going on.
>
>On this topic, I verified today with one of my importers (who travels to
>the far-east), that off-shore breeders are keeping all their livebearers
>in 4 to 5 grams of salt per litre of water. I think that is 19 grams per
>US gallon (or 3.8 US teaspoons /g). Whether your LFS knows it or not,
>this is probably what their livebearers were born and raised in.

I buy all my fish over the internet. Why would internet suppliers be
different? I have never had problems with mollies, platties or
swordtails so I assume they are not using salt.

[TYNK 7]

Snipped

>Subject: Re: Platys Mollies and other live bearers
>From: Dick
>Date: 6/4/2004 4:37 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>>> I think you are being too careful. The fish the store sells are not
>>> likely to go to homes that add salt. The store would have gone out of
>>> business if large number of fish had trouble. So, I would conclude
>>> that the fish are able to make the adjustment.

>I buy all my fish over the internet. Why would internet suppliers be
>different? I have never had problems with mollies, platties or
>swordtails so I assume they are not using salt.

Seems like you sure do make a lot of assumptions.
Maybe a little researching before you assume something would do the trick.

[NetMax]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:10:07 -0400, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
> >"Dick" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Mon, 24 May 2004 22:22:01 +0200, "McEve" >
wrote:
> >>
<snip>
> >>
> >> I think you are being too careful. The fish the store sells are not
> >> likely to go to homes that add salt. The store would have gone out
of
> >> business if large number of fish had trouble. So, I would conclude
> >> that the fish are able to make the adjustment.
> >
> >Your conclusion is incorrect. The business model for some of the
chain
> >operations does not require *any* profits from the live fish dept.
The
> >profits are from people buying pet food & paraphenalia. The fish are
> >loss leaders. This is why the mom& pops went under. As remarkable
(and
> >cynical) as it may sound, they would have no problem with all their
> >Platys dying, provided they lived a few weeks and they sold a few.
You
> >don't have to believe me, but I'm in the trade (fortunately not in one
of
> >those chains) and there have also been posters who have worked with
and
> >seen this going on.
> >
> >On this topic, I verified today with one of my importers (who travels
to
> >the far-east), that off-shore breeders are keeping all their
livebearers
> >in 4 to 5 grams of salt per litre of water. I think that is 19 grams
per
> >US gallon (or 3.8 US teaspoons /g). Whether your LFS knows it or not,
> >this is probably what their livebearers were born and raised in.
>
> I buy all my fish over the internet. Why would internet suppliers be
> different? I have never had problems with mollies, platties or
> swordtails so I assume they are not using salt.

LFS = local fish store
There are many large scale suppliers around the world. For livebearers,
the least expensive source of supply which has reliable transport is
Singapore, which has several exporters working with local fish farms.
Other sources, in no particular order (China, Indonesia, Hong Kong,
Thailand etc) follow similar breeding conditions (warm saline) for
reasons of competition. The South American exporters are not big on
livebearers, and prefer to keep to locally available sof****er fish.
European suppliers are not an economic option here, like paying North
American costs plus air transport, so most LFS source through Florida to
Singapore, or directly through transhippers.

Buying fish from the Internet, usually means that you are paying much
higher prices for local labour operating smaller volume productions.
It's nice to imagine that you're getting better fish (genetics, health
etc), and you might be, but it's just an assumption. Internet fish could
have come from anywhere, but the supplier would need to have a
significant sized operation before they could buy from importers (who
deal in boxes of thousands of fish).

If you are buying from the Internet, simply ask what water parameters
they kept their fish in, (including how much salt they use), but then you
would need to buy a test kit ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Platys Mollies and other live bearers
>From: "NetMax"
>Date: 6/4/2004 7:14 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:10:07 -0400, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >"Dick" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Mon, 24 May 2004 22:22:01 +0200, "McEve" >
>wrote:
>> >>
><snip>
>> >>
>> >> I think you are being too careful. The fish the store sells are not
>> >> likely to go to homes that add salt. The store would have gone out
>of
>> >> business if large number of fish had trouble. So, I would conclude
>> >> that the fish are able to make the adjustment.
>> >
>> >Your conclusion is incorrect. The business model for some of the
>chain
>> >operations does not require *any* profits from the live fish dept.
>The
>> >profits are from people buying pet food & paraphenalia. The fish are
>> >loss leaders. This is why the mom& pops went under. As remarkable
>(and
>> >cynical) as it may sound, they would have no problem with all their
>> >Platys dying, provided they lived a few weeks and they sold a few.
>You
>> >don't have to believe me, but I'm in the trade (fortunately not in one
>of
>> >those chains) and there have also been posters who have worked with
>and
>> >seen this going on.
>> >
>> >On this topic, I verified today with one of my importers (who travels
>to
>> >the far-east), that off-shore breeders are keeping all their
>livebearers
>> >in 4 to 5 grams of salt per litre of water. I think that is 19 grams
>per
>> >US gallon (or 3.8 US teaspoons /g). Whether your LFS knows it or not,
>> >this is probably what their livebearers were born and raised in.
>>
>> I buy all my fish over the internet. Why would internet suppliers be
>> different? I have never had problems with mollies, platties or
>> swordtails so I assume they are not using salt.
>
>LFS = local fish store
>There are many large scale suppliers around the world. For livebearers,
>the least expensive source of supply which has reliable transport is
>Singapore, which has several exporters working with local fish farms.
>Other sources, in no particular order (China, Indonesia, Hong Kong,
>Thailand etc) follow similar breeding conditions (warm saline) for
>reasons of competition. The South American exporters are not big on
>livebearers, and prefer to keep to locally available sof****er fish.
>European suppliers are not an economic option here, like paying North
>American costs plus air transport, so most LFS source through Florida to
>Singapore, or directly through transhippers.
>
>Buying fish from the Internet, usually means that you are paying much
>higher prices for local labour operating smaller volume productions.
>It's nice to imagine that you're getting better fish (genetics, health
>etc), and you might be, but it's just an assumption. Internet fish could
>have come from anywhere, but the supplier would need to have a
>significant sized operation before they could buy from importers (who
>deal in boxes of thousands of fish).
>
>If you are buying from the Internet, simply ask what water parameters
>they kept their fish in, (including how much salt they use), but then you
>would need to buy a test kit ;~)

Ba doomp boomp!
LOL = )~

[Dick]

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 20:14:13 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:10:07 -0400, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >"Dick" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Mon, 24 May 2004 22:22:01 +0200, "McEve" >
>wrote:
>> >>
><snip>
>> >>
>> >> I think you are being too careful. The fish the store sells are not
>> >> likely to go to homes that add salt. The store would have gone out
>of
>> >> business if large number of fish had trouble. So, I would conclude
>> >> that the fish are able to make the adjustment.
>> >
>> >Your conclusion is incorrect. The business model for some of the
>chain
>> >operations does not require *any* profits from the live fish dept.
>The
>> >profits are from people buying pet food & paraphenalia. The fish are
>> >loss leaders. This is why the mom& pops went under. As remarkable
>(and
>> >cynical) as it may sound, they would have no problem with all their
>> >Platys dying, provided they lived a few weeks and they sold a few.
>You
>> >don't have to believe me, but I'm in the trade (fortunately not in one
>of
>> >those chains) and there have also been posters who have worked with
>and
>> >seen this going on.
>> >
>> >On this topic, I verified today with one of my importers (who travels
>to
>> >the far-east), that off-shore breeders are keeping all their
>livebearers
>> >in 4 to 5 grams of salt per litre of water. I think that is 19 grams
>per
>> >US gallon (or 3.8 US teaspoons /g). Whether your LFS knows it or not,
>> >this is probably what their livebearers were born and raised in.
>>
>> I buy all my fish over the internet. Why would internet suppliers be
>> different? I have never had problems with mollies, platties or
>> swordtails so I assume they are not using salt.
>
>LFS = local fish store
>There are many large scale suppliers around the world. For livebearers,
>the least expensive source of supply which has reliable transport is
>Singapore, which has several exporters working with local fish farms.
>Other sources, in no particular order (China, Indonesia, Hong Kong,
>Thailand etc) follow similar breeding conditions (warm saline) for
>reasons of competition. The South American exporters are not big on
>livebearers, and prefer to keep to locally available sof****er fish.
>European suppliers are not an economic option here, like paying North
>American costs plus air transport, so most LFS source through Florida to
>Singapore, or directly through transhippers.
>
>Buying fish from the Internet, usually means that you are paying much
>higher prices for local labour operating smaller volume productions.
>It's nice to imagine that you're getting better fish (genetics, health
>etc), and you might be, but it's just an assumption. Internet fish could
>have come from anywhere, but the supplier would need to have a
>significant sized operation before they could buy from importers (who
>deal in boxes of thousands of fish).
>
>If you are buying from the Internet, simply ask what water parameters
>they kept their fish in, (including how much salt they use), but then you
>would need to buy a test kit ;~)

Netmax,

I am sure you know lots I don't about fish business, but, for me, the
bottom line is my tanks have 140 fish, 15 species and all but those
born in my own tanks came from fish stores (where else do fish come
from). They arrived healthy and went in my tanks and thrived for the
most part. I did get a shipment of 7 Clown Loaches that had ich, my
friendly internet store sent replacements. I have had 2 plecos die in
my 10 gallon tanks and one in my 29 gallon tank and none in a 75
gallon tank. The Plecos died 4 or 5 months after I got them. I tend
to believe the smaller the tank, the less well for Plecos. For all
the fish I have purchased I don't see anything to worry about. You
must have good sources. I can't imagine you buying poor risk fish.

It is hard to llive being afraid. I am so tired of negative stuff.
The world is better than the negatives reported. The people in my
small town are no different from the people in large towns I live in,
pretty decent, so I really reject "they all do it" reports.

Dick

[NetMax]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 20:14:13 -0400, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
> >"Dick" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:10:07 -0400, "NetMax"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >"Dick" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> On Mon, 24 May 2004 22:22:01 +0200, "McEve" >
> >wrote:
> >> >>
> ><snip>
> >> >>
> >> >> I think you are being too careful. The fish the store sells are
not
> >> >> likely to go to homes that add salt. The store would have gone
out
> >of
> >> >> business if large number of fish had trouble. So, I would
conclude
> >> >> that the fish are able to make the adjustment.
> >> >
> >> >Your conclusion is incorrect. The business model for some of the
> >chain
> >> >operations does not require *any* profits from the live fish dept.
> >The
> >> >profits are from people buying pet food & paraphenalia. The fish
are
> >> >loss leaders. This is why the mom& pops went under. As remarkable
> >(and
> >> >cynical) as it may sound, they would have no problem with all their
> >> >Platys dying, provided they lived a few weeks and they sold a few.
> >You
> >> >don't have to believe me, but I'm in the trade (fortunately not in
one
> >of
> >> >those chains) and there have also been posters who have worked with
> >and
> >> >seen this going on.
> >> >
> >> >On this topic, I verified today with one of my importers (who
travels
> >to
> >> >the far-east), that off-shore breeders are keeping all their
> >livebearers
> >> >in 4 to 5 grams of salt per litre of water. I think that is 19
grams
> >per
> >> >US gallon (or 3.8 US teaspoons /g). Whether your LFS knows it or
not,
> >> >this is probably what their livebearers were born and raised in.
> >>
> >> I buy all my fish over the internet. Why would internet suppliers
be
> >> different? I have never had problems with mollies, platties or
> >> swordtails so I assume they are not using salt.
> >
> >LFS = local fish store
> >There are many large scale suppliers around the world. For
livebearers,
> >the least expensive source of supply which has reliable transport is
> >Singapore, which has several exporters working with local fish farms.
> >Other sources, in no particular order (China, Indonesia, Hong Kong,
> >Thailand etc) follow similar breeding conditions (warm saline) for
> >reasons of competition. The South American exporters are not big on
> >livebearers, and prefer to keep to locally available sof****er fish.
> >European suppliers are not an economic option here, like paying North
> >American costs plus air transport, so most LFS source through Florida
to
> >Singapore, or directly through transhippers.
> >
> >Buying fish from the Internet, usually means that you are paying much
> >higher prices for local labour operating smaller volume productions.
> >It's nice to imagine that you're getting better fish (genetics, health
> >etc), and you might be, but it's just an assumption. Internet fish
could
> >have come from anywhere, but the supplier would need to have a
> >significant sized operation before they could buy from importers (who
> >deal in boxes of thousands of fish).
> >
> >If you are buying from the Internet, simply ask what water parameters
> >they kept their fish in, (including how much salt they use), but then
you
> >would need to buy a test kit ;~)
>
> Netmax,
>
> I am sure you know lots I don't about fish business, but, for me, the
> bottom line is my tanks have 140 fish, 15 species and all but those
> born in my own tanks came from fish stores (where else do fish come
> from). They arrived healthy and went in my tanks and thrived for the
> most part. I did get a shipment of 7 Clown Loaches that had ich, my
> friendly internet store sent replacements. I have had 2 plecos die in
> my 10 gallon tanks and one in my 29 gallon tank and none in a 75
> gallon tank. The Plecos died 4 or 5 months after I got them. I tend
> to believe the smaller the tank, the less well for Plecos. For all
> the fish I have purchased I don't see anything to worry about. You
> must have good sources. I can't imagine you buying poor risk fish.
>
> It is hard to llive being afraid. I am so tired of negative stuff.
> The world is better than the negatives reported. The people in my
> small town are no different from the people in large towns I live in,
> pretty decent, so I really reject "they all do it" reports.
>
> Dick

Please re-read my post. I'm not making any 'they all do it' statements.
I'm reporting a trend which is in common usage amongst the biggest
suppliers of mass-production livebearers to North America *period*. I'm
not telling you to worry or to test your water or make your water
perfect. It's just data for you to ponder, apply, share or ignore as you
wish or as is applicable to you. Depending on your source of fish, this
information may or may not be relevant to you, but it addresses the OP's
original question.

This is a public forum, to share experiences and information. As a
service to everyone, when incorrect data (or incorrect assumptions) are
posted, it is hopefully caught and corrected, to prevent confusion or
'Usenet myths' to develop. There is certainly no malice intended, and
I'd expect to be called to the mat whenever I make a mistake as well
(which is not that uncommon), but everyone is usually very polite about
it :o)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[McEve]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> >
> > Other than the Mollys, their dependance on salt is probably artificial.
> > Raising livebearers in very hot salty water benefits the growers in 2
> > ways. The combination of salt & heat reduces the number of pathogens
> > which will survive (less bacterial and viral diseases) and increases
> > their metabolism and appetite, (so they grow faster).
> >
> > > Do I need to be concerned about their ability to adjust to life
> without
> > > salt? And is it really necessary to put all that salt in the water
> for
> > live
> > > bearers other than Mollies?
> >
> > Yes, and now, yes (until acclimated). You can try to get them off salt
> > slowly, but for livebearers born in brackish water, I think your best
> > success will be with their fry.
> > --
> > www.NetMax.tk
>
> OK, I just did a little experiment. I have these five 20g tanks, and the
> water is soft 3dgH, 3dkH and 7.7pH (not exactly paradise for
> livebearers). I usually put 1/2 cup marine salt into a 60g tank, but I'd
> put 1 full cup of marine salt into each 20g tank. That's 48 teaspoons or
> 2.4 teaspoons per gallon. I then stocked the tanks with Guppies (that
> I'd had for several weeks are were very sickly), Balloon Mollies &
> assorted Swordtails (which I'd had for many weeks and were very healthy
> but acclimated to 100% freshwater), and Saffron Mollies & Starburst
> Platys (new delivery from Singapore).
>
> It's only been six days, but so far I have no regrets. The Guppies don't
> look better or worst but haven't been dying (which is an improvement).
> The freshwater acclimated livebearers haven't missed a beat (appetite
> activity colouration all excellent). Most surprising is that the new
> arrivals look really great. Lost two within a day, but those didn't look
> good at arrival, and the delivery was about 100 fish.
>
> This experiment is working out nicely, but 2 problems. I took those
> tanks off-line so the automatic water changer would not dilute the
> salinity. I'll need to make up a manual schedule with a salt
> replenishment program. The 2nd problem is what to do next. I can post a
> sign so customers know that they are in brackish water (I think this
> concentration is brackish). I'd like to acclimate them to freshwater,
> but with all the fish deliveries every week, I cannot coordinate the
> acclimation of several tanks at different stages.
>
> I'm open to ideas. I might try to adjust the salinity downwards. I
> think I'm at around .24% right now, and if I can get the same results at
> .1% then acclimation to freshwater will be easier for customers.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>

Thank you for your extremely well answer to my question! Looks like I can
conclude that only the Molly is originally meant to benefit from salt, but
the development goes in the direction of using salt for all live bearers.
When I hear about your experiment I can see why they do it too.

The Platies I did buy are still alive and healthy, but they do not get any
salt in the water. I don't hink my Angels and Pleco would apreciate that one
bit :)

Maybe it depends on how many fish pr gallon the tank has, as to how obious
the benefit of salt is? LFS's (and of course breeders) have quite a few
fish in every tank, compared to my fairly sparingly populated tank.

Thanks again NetMax, as always :)