Ecosphere idea - suggestions ???

[Limnophile]

I'm going to try the ecosphere idea again, and I'd like some suggestions, or
corrections if anything written here is a bad idea.

I plan to use an old gallon jar ( 3.8 liters) with a tight-fitting lid, a
cup of pond mud, a cup of used aquarium gravel, about a dozen leaves of
duckweed ( Lemna minor) , a small Hygrophila plant, a small Anacharis plant
, some small bits of algae, some copepods, 3 small snails, and 3 ghost
shrimp. I plan to leave about 1/2 a liter of air in the top when I seal the
jar. The room temperature is a constant 72 to 77 F , and the jar will be
placed next to a west-facing window.

Any species I should add or leave out ?
Anything here sound like a problem ?
Any other ideas ?

Limnophile

[Dinky]

"Limnophile" > wrote in message
...
| I'm going to try the ecosphere idea again, and I'd like some
suggestions, or
| corrections if anything written here is a bad idea.
|
| I plan to use an old gallon jar ( 3.8 liters) with a tight-fitting
lid, a
| cup of pond mud, a cup of used aquarium gravel, about a dozen
leaves of
| duckweed ( Lemna minor) , a small Hygrophila plant, a small
Anacharis plant
| , some small bits of algae, some copepods, 3 small snails, and 3
ghost
| shrimp. I plan to leave about 1/2 a liter of air in the top when I
seal the
| jar. The room temperature is a constant 72 to 77 F , and the jar
will be
| placed next to a west-facing window.
|
| Any species I should add or leave out ?
| Anything here sound like a problem ?
| Any other ideas ?
|
| Limnophile
|
|

I'd think the snails will breed way too fast for the rest of the
ecosystem to cope with. They'll "crash" it IMO.

[Limnophile]

"Dinky" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> I'd think the snails will breed way too fast for the rest of the
> ecosystem to cope with. They'll "crash" it IMO.
>

My first try was with snails in a small jar. Maybe if I get a different
species of snail, they will be ok in a gallon jar ? But I have a strong
suspicion you are right.

Off to search the web for a slow-breeding snail. Wish me luck ...

Thanks,
Limnophile

[Joe Crowder]

"Limnophile" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dinky" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > I'd think the snails will breed way too fast for the rest of the
> > ecosystem to cope with. They'll "crash" it IMO.
> >
>
> My first try was with snails in a small jar. Maybe if I get a different
> species of snail, they will be ok in a gallon jar ? But I have a strong
> suspicion you are right.
>
> Off to search the web for a slow-breeding snail. Wish me luck ...
>
> Thanks,
> Limnophile
>

I might also be concerned with the growth rate on the plants. Both Anachris
and Duckweed are pretty fast growing plants. I don't think shrimp will eat
either one, so a lot of the resources in your closed system will get locked
up in those plants. I'm pretty sure those resources are needed for a good
supply of algae to feed the shrimp.

In a closed system like this I think you have to keep the resources cycling.
I can think of two major cycles going on in your tank:

Algae -> shrimp/snail food -> waste (ammonia, etc) -> Bacteria ->
Nitrates (+ ambient light) -> algae

O2 -> shrimp/snail -> CO2 -> plants/algae -> O2

If you interrupt the food chain by locking up resources in plants the shrimp
cannot eat, the system may slowly crash with the plants taking over, then
dieing out after having starved out the shrimp. Can someone with a little
more expertise comment on this?

Do you have a function in mind for the snails, or do you just really like
snails? I would think the shrimp could handle all the cleanup functions
that the snails would be normally used for. I can also see the snails being
a self regulating species because they will bread up to the capabilities of
the ecosystem to support, then die back if they overpopulate (without going
extinct). They may out-compete the shrimp though.

A couple of other details to ponder:
- Adding trace elements for the plants (Iron, phosphate, dissolved carbon,
etc)
- Add a calcium source or initial dose of dissolved calcium for the snails
- Salt? I don't think you want it with higher order plants, but it's worth
researching. The commercial ones use "filtered seawater", so they are very
different form what you are planning.
- Amount of substrate. Enough to provide surface area for your regular
filtering bacteria. Not enough for anaerobic bacteria to start locking up
your nitrogen
- Ph, Hardness. I have no idea what would be ideal here. I would probably
ignore these for now.
- All the commercial ones seem to have fine driftwood in them. I assume
this is a surfacce for bacteria, algae, etc. If you are using a substrate,
you probably don't need this

If you come up with a recipe that seems to work, post it. I bet everyone
would like to here about it.

Joe

[Limnophile]

"Joe Crowder" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Limnophile" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Dinky" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > <snip>
> > > I'd think the snails will breed way too fast for the rest of the
> > > ecosystem to cope with. They'll "crash" it IMO.
> > >
> >
> > My first try was with snails in a small jar. Maybe if I get a different
> > species of snail, they will be ok in a gallon jar ? But I have a strong
> > suspicion you are right.
> >
> > Off to search the web for a slow-breeding snail. Wish me luck ...
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Limnophile
> >
>
> I might also be concerned with the growth rate on the plants. Both
Anachris
> and Duckweed are pretty fast growing plants. I don't think shrimp will
eat
> either one, so a lot of the resources in your closed system will get
locked
> up in those plants. I'm pretty sure those resources are needed for a good
> supply of algae to feed the shrimp.

Good point, if nothing eats the plants they are probably a bad idea.

> In a closed system like this I think you have to keep the resources
cycling.
> I can think of two major cycles going on in your tank:
>
> Algae -> shrimp/snail food -> waste (ammonia, etc) -> Bacteria ->
> Nitrates (+ ambient light) -> algae
>
> O2 -> shrimp/snail -> CO2 -> plants/algae -> O2
>
> If you interrupt the food chain by locking up resources in plants the
shrimp
> cannot eat, the system may slowly crash with the plants taking over, then
> dieing out after having starved out the shrimp. Can someone with a little
> more expertise comment on this?
>
> Do you have a function in mind for the snails, or do you just really like
> snails? I would think the shrimp could handle all the cleanup functions
> that the snails would be normally used for. I can also see the snails
being
> a self regulating species because they will bread up to the capabilities
of
> the ecosystem to support, then die back if they overpopulate (without
going
> extinct). They may out-compete the shrimp though.

I just kind of like snails, and they seem to be hardier than shrimp, at
least in my experience.
I will leave them out if they are likely to kill off the shrimp though.

> A couple of other details to ponder:
> - Adding trace elements for the plants (Iron, phosphate, dissolved carbon,
> etc)

I will add a little aquarium plant fertilizer when I set it up.

> - Add a calcium source or initial dose of dissolved calcium for the snails

Using some small pieces of crushed coral to the gravel should do it, I
think.

> - Salt? I don't think you want it with higher order plants, but it's
worth
> researching. The commercial ones use "filtered seawater", so they are
very
> different form what you are planning.

I was planning to use a small amount of marine salt mix, as a source of
iodine and other trace minerals. I was thinking 1/4 teaspoon for a gallon
jar, not enough to hurt the plants.

> - Amount of substrate. Enough to provide surface area for your regular
> filtering bacteria. Not enough for anaerobic bacteria to start locking up
> your nitrogen

Another good point, I think I'll go with just a trace of mud for the
microorganisms, and 1-2 inches of gravel.

> - Ph, Hardness. I have no idea what would be ideal here. I would
probably
> ignore these for now.
> - All the commercial ones seem to have fine driftwood in them. I assume
> this is a surfacce for bacteria, algae, etc. If you are using a
substrate,
> you probably don't need this

Some small sticks would give extra surface area, and something for the
shrimp and snails to climb on. The slow decay of the wood would also
counter-act the pH increase caused by the crushed coral dissolving. Another
idea to consider.

>
> If you come up with a recipe that seems to work, post it. I bet everyone
> would like to here about it.
>
> Joe
>

Thanks for the ideas Joe;
Limnophile

[Joe Crowder]

"Limnophile" > wrote in message
...
>
<SNIP>

You've obviously done some thinking on this. Have you found any good
"how-to" info on the web? I did a real quick google search and found a
couple of things on dry land and sea-water closed ecosystems, but just one
dead link for freshwater systems.

Joe

[Limnophile]

I found a Yahoo group for people doing "experiments" like this :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/homemadebiospheres/

Lots of good info there.

"Joe Crowder" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Limnophile" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> <SNIP>
>
> You've obviously done some thinking on this. Have you found any good
> "how-to" info on the web? I did a real quick google search and found a
> couple of things on dry land and sea-water closed ecosystems, but just one
> dead link for freshwater systems.
>
> Joe