Re: Fin Rot

[Toni]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>
> Perhaps Frank in a.a will have some ideas on how to sterilize a 100g
> planted(?) tank without using antibiotics or destroying the plants.
> --


I'm just wondering why we are going to such extremes of sterilization for a
simple case of fin rot without first suggesting good old daily water
changes?
The subject of water quality was not even mentioned.
I have personally found that super clean water does more for bacterial
problems than all the meds and cleaning in the world. Addressing an immune
system that falls victim to opportunistic bacteria seems to me key as well.

Just curious why this particular poster was not even asked about frequency
of water changes or quality of diet??
Unless you know him personally and have been witnessing daily water changes?


--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/discus.htm

[NetMax]

"Toni" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Perhaps Frank in a.a will have some ideas on how to sterilize a 100g
> > planted(?) tank without using antibiotics or destroying the plants.
> > --
>
>
> I'm just wondering why we are going to such extremes of sterilization
for a
> simple case of fin rot without first suggesting good old daily water
> changes?
> The subject of water quality was not even mentioned.
> I have personally found that super clean water does more for bacterial
> problems than all the meds and cleaning in the world. Addressing an
immune
> system that falls victim to opportunistic bacteria seems to me key as
well.
>
> Just curious why this particular poster was not even asked about
frequency
> of water changes or quality of diet??
> Unless you know him personally and have been witnessing daily water
changes?
>
>
> --
> Toni
> http://www.cearbhaill.com/discus.htm



No disagreement from me. I skipped it for several reasons i) a newbie
would not normally find themselves with 6 breeding pairs of Angelfish in
a 100g tank ;~), ii) Douglas has posted before, iii) what he is doing
sounds too much like what I would find myself doing (even to the
medication he chose), and finally he lists himself as an Aquarium
Maintenance Man for hire. Also the specific question was more along the
lines of time & method to sterilize an empty tank, rather than the usual
'how do I cure my sick fish'.

A lot of my customers are experienced hobbyists, and I hate to grill them
on basic procedures when they might know more about aquarium management
than me, but I still try 'delicately', but in this instance, I skipped it
entirely.. my bad.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Toni]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>
> A lot of my customers are experienced hobbyists, and I hate to grill them
> on basic procedures when they might know more about aquarium management
> than me, but I still try 'delicately', but in this instance, I skipped it
> entirely.. my bad.



Nah- I figured you knew him.
I was thinking more of all the newbies reading that fin rot = double
antibiotics and tank tear downs.


--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/discus.htm

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Fin Rot
>From: "Toni"
>Date: 5/28/2004 3:55 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: t>
>
>
>"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Perhaps Frank in a.a will have some ideas on how to sterilize a 100g
>> planted(?) tank without using antibiotics or destroying the plants.
>> --
>
>
>I'm just wondering why we are going to such extremes of sterilization for a
>simple case of fin rot without first suggesting good old daily water
>changes?
>The subject of water quality was not even mentioned.
>I have personally found that super clean water does more for bacterial
>problems than all the meds and cleaning in the world. Addressing an immune
>system that falls victim to opportunistic bacteria seems to me key as well.
>
>Just curious why this particular poster was not even asked about frequency
>of water changes or quality of diet??
>Unless you know him personally and have been witnessing daily water changes?
>

Because it's quite possible that the Angelfish are suffering from the Angel
virus (aka Discus plague). Adult Angels can fight it, but what usually kills
them is a secondary bacterial infection...usually fin rot.
In this case, no other fish will become affected, as it only hits Angels and
Discus, yet can be transferred and carried in by any fish.
There are a few known diseases that are specie related only. Meaning, it's only
going to affect certain species in the tank.
Most recently (in the last several years) Guppies had something that was
species related, and so have Bettas.
If it's a specie related problem, their tank water may be pristine, yet that
wouldn't matter much (it does in the case of the Angelfish virus because it's
their immune system that is trashed and you want pristine water while the adult
fish are trying to battle it. Young Angles can't fight it and die).

[NetMax]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Fin Rot
> >From: "Toni"
> >Date: 5/28/2004 3:55 AM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: t>
> >
> >
> >"NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> Perhaps Frank in a.a will have some ideas on how to sterilize a 100g
> >> planted(?) tank without using antibiotics or destroying the plants.
> >> --
> >
> >
> >I'm just wondering why we are going to such extremes of sterilization
for a
> >simple case of fin rot without first suggesting good old daily water
> >changes?
> >The subject of water quality was not even mentioned.
> >I have personally found that super clean water does more for bacterial
> >problems than all the meds and cleaning in the world. Addressing an
immune
> >system that falls victim to opportunistic bacteria seems to me key as
well.
> >
> >Just curious why this particular poster was not even asked about
frequency
> >of water changes or quality of diet??
> >Unless you know him personally and have been witnessing daily water
changes?
> >
>
> Because it's quite possible that the Angelfish are suffering from the
Angel
> virus (aka Discus plague). Adult Angels can fight it, but what usually
kills
> them is a secondary bacterial infection...usually fin rot.
> In this case, no other fish will become affected, as it only hits
Angels and
> Discus, yet can be transferred and carried in by any fish.
> There are a few known diseases that are specie related only. Meaning,
it's only
> going to affect certain species in the tank.
> Most recently (in the last several years) Guppies had something that
was
> species related, and so have Bettas.
> If it's a specie related problem, their tank water may be pristine, yet
that
> wouldn't matter much (it does in the case of the Angelfish virus
because it's
> their immune system that is trashed and you want pristine water while
the adult
> fish are trying to battle it. Young Angles can't fight it and die).

Regarding species specific diseases, add plecos and tiger barbs to that
list. When it hits, it's brutal (death in a week), but only seems to
affect the one species, to the point where the pleco plague only hit
common plecs and left the gibbiceps alone. The Tiger plague drops
juveniles in 2-3 days, but adults take longer. The other fish in the
tank seem unaffected by the primary cause, but will show secondary
symptoms if the Tigers take too long to die. Dwarf gouramis might be
getting their own fungal related plague as well. Guppies are still
dropping from Columnaris (never mix local Guppies with Singapore Guppies,
and I'm told that many of Florida's Guppies are from Singapore). The
Angelfish virus might be making a comeback (I keep my local Discus 20
feet away from imports, and I never buy imported Angels anymore). What a
mess :-(

I think I might have managed to save my main Tiger barb tank that I'd
posted about. It's been about a month, everyone is still quarantined,
losing about 1 every 2-3 days, visible symptoms on 2 or 3 still, but I'm
getting cautiously optimistic (knocks head against wooden desk). They
have been on 80% water changes every 48 hours, gravel vac twice a week,
gram- wide spectrum antibiotics every 48 hours, followed by
anti-parasitics & Melafix for secondary symptoms. I feel like I'm in a
war, but the activity level, colouration and appetite of the survivors is
cheering me up.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[RedForeman ©®]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
> Guppies are still dropping from Columnaris (never mix local Guppies with
Singapore Guppies,
> and I'm told that many of Florida's Guppies are from Singapore). The
> Angelfish virus might be making a comeback (I keep my local Discus 20
> feet away from imports, and I never buy imported Angels anymore). What a
> mess :-(

Amen to that.... I had several good ones, then got a new male.... they
started dropping like flies....

I have since, given all but 4 away, because of that risk...

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø


is that better??

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Fin Rot
>From: "NetMax"
>Date: 6/2/2004 12:00 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Fin Rot
>> >From: "Toni"
>> >Date: 5/28/2004 3:55 AM Central Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: t>
>> >
>> >
>> >"NetMax" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >>
>> >> Perhaps Frank in a.a will have some ideas on how to sterilize a 100g
>> >> planted(?) tank without using antibiotics or destroying the plants.
>> >> --
>> >
>> >
>> >I'm just wondering why we are going to such extremes of sterilization
>for a
>> >simple case of fin rot without first suggesting good old daily water
>> >changes?
>> >The subject of water quality was not even mentioned.
>> >I have personally found that super clean water does more for bacterial
>> >problems than all the meds and cleaning in the world. Addressing an
>immune
>> >system that falls victim to opportunistic bacteria seems to me key as
>well.
>> >
>> >Just curious why this particular poster was not even asked about
>frequency
>> >of water changes or quality of diet??
>> >Unless you know him personally and have been witnessing daily water
>changes?
>> >
>>
>> Because it's quite possible that the Angelfish are suffering from the
>Angel
>> virus (aka Discus plague). Adult Angels can fight it, but what usually
>kills
>> them is a secondary bacterial infection...usually fin rot.
>> In this case, no other fish will become affected, as it only hits
>Angels and
>> Discus, yet can be transferred and carried in by any fish.
>> There are a few known diseases that are specie related only. Meaning,
>it's only
>> going to affect certain species in the tank.
>> Most recently (in the last several years) Guppies had something that
>was
>> species related, and so have Bettas.
>> If it's a specie related problem, their tank water may be pristine, yet
>that
>> wouldn't matter much (it does in the case of the Angelfish virus
>because it's
>> their immune system that is trashed and you want pristine water while
>the adult
>> fish are trying to battle it. Young Angles can't fight it and die).
>
>Regarding species specific diseases, add plecos and tiger barbs to that
>list. When it hits, it's brutal (death in a week), but only seems to
>affect the one species, to the point where the pleco plague only hit
>common plecs and left the gibbiceps alone. The Tiger plague drops
>juveniles in 2-3 days, but adults take longer. The other fish in the
>tank seem unaffected by the primary cause, but will show secondary
>symptoms if the Tigers take too long to die. Dwarf gouramis might be
>getting their own fungal related plague as well. Guppies are still
>dropping from Columnaris (never mix local Guppies with Singapore Guppies,
>and I'm told that many of Florida's Guppies are from Singapore). The
>Angelfish virus might be making a comeback (I keep my local Discus 20
>feet away from imports, and I never buy imported Angels anymore). What a
>mess :-(
>
>I think I might have managed to save my main Tiger barb tank that I'd
>posted about. It's been about a month, everyone is still quarantined,
>losing about 1 every 2-3 days, visible symptoms on 2 or 3 still, but I'm
>getting cautiously optimistic (knocks head against wooden desk). They
>have been on 80% water changes every 48 hours, gravel vac twice a week,
>gram- wide spectrum antibiotics every 48 hours, followed by
>anti-parasitics & Melafix for secondary symptoms. I feel like I'm in a
>war, but the activity level, colouration and appetite of the survivors is
>cheering me up.
>--
>www.NetMax.tk
>

Hey there NetMax.
I know the Angel virus is making a come back, it was brought back to the
states, after years of battling it in the late 80's before anyone figured out
what it was and where it came from (Singapore), but PetsMart started getting in
Angelfish from the farms in Florida...which got them imported from Singapore! I
battled PetsMart about this and didn't get anywhere with them.
I was actually told by their head customer relations person that I didn't know
what I was talking about, and that there never was any such disease, never was
in the 80's either, and that she could gurantee me that every fish in every one
of their stores was perfectly healthy. My jaw dropped when she emailed that
reply to me.
Their employees were told it was a pH difference and that's why their Angels
were dropping like flys (the younger ones) and the older ones looked like their
skin was dripping off of them (the over production of their slime coat) and
dying from Fin Rot (the usual secondary infection that kills them).
PetsMart did not care one bit that they were selling fish (any type because
their tanks are on one huge filtering system, so all their stock carried it),
that were transferring it peoples healthy Angels or Discus.
Before I knew that their Angels were suffering from this, I (stupidly) bought a
gorgeous male Betta. A few days later my breeding stock of Angels started
coming down with what was so obvious to me, as the virus. The only new fish in
the house was that Betta from PetsMart. He was 3 rooms away, but that doesn't
seem to matter with this virus, as a microscopic droplet of water can transfer
it to healthy tanks. That's why some thought it was actually airborne too,
however, a virus can't be airborne, or so I was told by the John G. Shedd
Aquarium in Chicago, IL.
Anyway, I drove my butt to that PetsMart right then and found their Angels
suffering from it.
I was crushed, as I knew what was ahead of me.
This was at least 3 or more years ago, and their Angels are STILL affected.
I've seen the virus in various mom and pop stores now as well. It is spreading.

Sadly, many of the hobbyists who had gotten into fishkeeping after the virus
first hit in the late 80's, or weren't into Angels or Discus back then, don't
know about it or what it is.
I spent months explaining to local shops what it was and what they needed to
do.
The shops who are on one large filtering system either don't get Angels or
Discus anymore, or choose to keep the virus going through their tanks.
I periodically will go in and look around. Unfortunately, I usually leave sad.
= (

[NetMax]

"TYNK 7" wrote ...
> >Subject: Re: Fin Rot
> >From: "NetMax"
> >
> >"TYNK 7" wrote...
> >> >Subject: Re: Fin Rot
> >> >From: "Toni"
> >> >"NetMax" wrote...
<snip>
> I spent months explaining to local shops what it was and what they
needed to
> do.
> The shops who are on one large filtering system either don't get Angels
or
> Discus anymore, or choose to keep the virus going through their tanks.
> I periodically will go in and look around. Unfortunately, I usually
leave sad.
> = (

I remember when I used to enjoy visiting pet shops a lot more than I do
today.
The more you know, the more you see : (
--
www.NetMax.tk