HELP AMMONIA (dont understand where from)

[nuchumYussel]

As the subject indicates, i have a problem with my ammonia. I have a
20 Gallon tank. About a month and a half ago, I bought an Eheim
Liberty. The Eheim was there to replace my Penguin Bio-Wheel. I left
BOTH filters running for a month and a half. Today, I did a water
change and took off the Penguin Bio-WHeel. Now, two hours after the
water change, I have no nitrites but I do have ammonia. After leaving
the test solution in the test tube with water for about 2 or 3
minutes, it looks thick and sort of like lemonade. It now looks about
done changing, still looking "lemonadey", it seems to be at about 1.5.
The wierd thing is that all of the fish are acting normal, no one at
the top, no one with fading colors. I have n clue what happened. Can
anyone please help me out with this? I have carbon and a bag, would
adding some carbon help?

TANK VITAL STATS:

Temperature: 78
Ph: 6.85
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: about 1.5
Tank age: 10 months
Cycled: Was and I hope still is cycled. But I don't know if what i did
uncycled it
Inhabitants: 1 Pleco (6 in.), 1 Snake Skin Gourami (around 5.5 in.), 6
Zebra Tetra, 4 Black Widow Tetra, 2 Serpae Tetra.
Heater: 100W Submersable
Filter: Liberty Eheim

Thanks for looking,
Evan Davis

[Dinky]

"nuchumYussel" > wrote in message
om...
| As the subject indicates, i have a problem with my ammonia. I have
a


I'd take a sample to the LFS to verify that there is ammonia, might
be the test kit. You did everything right, imo.

[Joe Crowder]

"Dinky" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "nuchumYussel" > wrote in message
> om...
> | As the subject indicates, i have a problem with my ammonia. I have
> a
>
>
> I'd take a sample to the LFS to verify that there is ammonia, might
> be the test kit. You did everything right, imo.
>

Did you treat your tap water to remove chlorine/chloramine before dumping it
into your tank?

Joe

[Dinky]

"Joe Crowder" > wrote in message
...
|
| Did you treat your tap water to remove chlorine/chloramine before
dumping it
| into your tank?
|

How would that cause an ammonia reading? (serious question here)

billy

[bottom feeder]

Dinky wrote:

> "Joe Crowder" > wrote in message
> ...
> |
> | Did you treat your tap water to remove chlorine/chloramine before
> dumping it
> | into your tank?
> |
>
> How would that cause an ammonia reading? (serious question here)
>

Chloramine can cause ammonia readings. If you just de-chlorinate you
don't remove the ammonia. Using a product that removes chloramine and
chlorine will lessen this problem.

--
dan

> billy
>
>

[Sue]

> > | Did you treat your tap water to remove chlorine/chloramine before
> > dumping it
> > | into your tank?
> > |
> >
> > How would that cause an ammonia reading? (serious question here)
> >
>
> Chloramine can cause ammonia readings. If you just de-chlorinate you
> don't remove the ammonia. Using a product that removes chloramine and
> chlorine will lessen this problem.
& if the water wasn't treated the chlorine/chloramine could have killed off
the filter bacteria.

With removing half the filtration in one go I'd expect a temporary spike in
such a heavily stocked tank - I'd have kept both filters going.

[The Outcaste]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 21:02:07 -0700, "Dinky"
> bubbled forth the following:

>
>
>"Joe Crowder" > wrote in message
...
>|
>| Did you treat your tap water to remove chlorine/chloramine before
>dumping it
>| into your tank?
>|
>
>How would that cause an ammonia reading? (serious question here)
>
>billy
>
My tap water measures .25 ppm ammonia, this is due to the Chloramine
in the water. Even after treating with AmQuel I get the same
measurement (using TetraTest kit with 3 reagents). Water from the
under counter carbon filter measures 0 ppm.

Assuming the OP's kit has not gone bad (test your tap water or some
distilled water), it could be there was not enough bio-load for a
significant bacterial culture to get started in the Eheim, the Penguin
was handling it all.

If the bio-wheel hasn't dried out, I would but the penguin back on and
see if the levels drop. If so, see if you can fit the Penguin insert
into the Eheim, or at least rub the media together to try to transfer
the bacteria to seed the Eheim. If the media in the Penguin has dried
out, you may have to re-cycle the tank.

You'd think the Eheim would have some sort of culture started, so it
may settle down in a few hours, it could be the bacteria haven't had
enough time to multiply to the level needed to handle the bio-load
without the Penguin.

Keep an eye on the fish and do water changes as needed to keep ammonia
down.

HTH

Jerry

[Dick]

On 30 May 2004 17:57:04 -0700, (nuchumYussel) wrote:

>As the subject indicates, i have a problem with my ammonia. I have a
>20 Gallon tank. About a month and a half ago, I bought an Eheim
>Liberty. The Eheim was there to replace my Penguin Bio-Wheel. I left
>BOTH filters running for a month and a half. Today, I did a water
>change and took off the Penguin Bio-WHeel. Now, two hours after the
>water change, I have no nitrites but I do have ammonia. After leaving
>the test solution in the test tube with water for about 2 or 3
>minutes, it looks thick and sort of like lemonade. It now looks about
>done changing, still looking "lemonadey", it seems to be at about 1.5.
>The wierd thing is that all of the fish are acting normal, no one at
>the top, no one with fading colors. I have n clue what happened. Can
>anyone please help me out with this? I have carbon and a bag, would
>adding some carbon help?
>
>TANK VITAL STATS:
>
>Temperature: 78
>Ph: 6.85
>Nitrite: 0
>Ammonia: about 1.5
>Tank age: 10 months
>Cycled: Was and I hope still is cycled. But I don't know if what i did
>uncycled it
>Inhabitants: 1 Pleco (6 in.), 1 Snake Skin Gourami (around 5.5 in.), 6
>Zebra Tetra, 4 Black Widow Tetra, 2 Serpae Tetra.
>Heater: 100W Submersable
>Filter: Liberty Eheim
>
>Thanks for looking,
>Evan Davis

Evan, I tried reading through all you have said, but am puzzled, are
you having a problem with your tank, or the test kit? I saw no
mention of plant or fish illness.

I get edgy over the chemist mind set. I don't trust the test sets and
I don't trust my abilities to interpret the results and make
knowledgeable adjustments. I killed several fish and hurt many more
when "adjusting" the pH in my 75 gallon tank. I am not sure why the
pH went acid so fast, but it did. I have never adjusted for pH again.

You indicate your tank was set up for months and doing well. Why are
you testing anyway if your tank is doing well? I have 5 tanks set up
for a year and more. I do my weekly 20% water changes, use water
straight from the tap and all is well. I only test if something
doesn't look right. Changing water regularly is the single most
important thing I do other than be careful not to overfeed and running
timers on my lighting.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. <g>

[nuchumYussel]

Yes, I use dechlorinater for the water I put into the tank.

Evan Davis

[NetMax]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On 30 May 2004 17:57:04 -0700, (nuchumYussel) wrote:
>
> >As the subject indicates, i have a problem with my ammonia. I have a
> >20 Gallon tank. About a month and a half ago, I bought an Eheim
> >Liberty. The Eheim was there to replace my Penguin Bio-Wheel. I left
> >BOTH filters running for a month and a half. Today, I did a water
> >change and took off the Penguin Bio-WHeel. Now, two hours after the
> >water change, I have no nitrites but I do have ammonia. After leaving
> >the test solution in the test tube with water for about 2 or 3
> >minutes, it looks thick and sort of like lemonade. It now looks about
> >done changing, still looking "lemonadey", it seems to be at about 1.5.
> >The wierd thing is that all of the fish are acting normal, no one at
> >the top, no one with fading colors. I have n clue what happened. Can
> >anyone please help me out with this? I have carbon and a bag, would
> >adding some carbon help?
> >
> >TANK VITAL STATS:
> >
> >Temperature: 78
> >Ph: 6.85
> >Nitrite: 0
> >Ammonia: about 1.5
> >Tank age: 10 months
> >Cycled: Was and I hope still is cycled. But I don't know if what i did
> >uncycled it
> >Inhabitants: 1 Pleco (6 in.), 1 Snake Skin Gourami (around 5.5 in.), 6
> >Zebra Tetra, 4 Black Widow Tetra, 2 Serpae Tetra.
> >Heater: 100W Submersable
> >Filter: Liberty Eheim
> >
> >Thanks for looking,
> >Evan Davis
<snip>

My server didn't carry your original post, but Dick copied it over
*thanks*.

At 6.8pH your fish are probably not bothered by the NH4, which is there
partly because chloramine is ammonia+chlorine (and the de-chlorinator
separates them and most do nothing about the NH3/4), and because your
filter might have been a little understocked with the nitrifying
bacteria. I'd just feed a bit less, do a partial water changes and
monitor the NH4 level. If you pH climbs too high, then your NH4 becomes
NH3 and that is where you will see the fish getting stressed out.

ps: on test reagents, follow the directions. If it says wait 5 minutes,
then the colour at 6 or ten minutes is irrelevant. The pH kits in
particular, you usually need to read immediately, as they slowly drift
off in colour to irrelevance.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Ali Day]

> At 6.8pH your fish are probably not bothered by the NH4, which is there
> partly because chloramine is ammonia+chlorine (and the de-chlorinator
> separates them and most do nothing about the NH3/4), and because your
> filter might have been a little understocked with the nitrifying
> bacteria.

I thought Ammonium did no real harm to fish (didn't say it was harmless)
what ever the pH? I thought it was the ammonia that was negated by a lower
PH. Since I cycled my first tank a couple of years back I have never seen
ammonia/um, even when I upgraded to the new tank (swimming pool as the other
half calls it).

Mind you I'm happier now with the new house and it's water supply. I don't
need anywhere near the CO2 injection that I used to, and have managed to
bring my PH down from 7 to 6.5 relatively easily.

Cheers

A

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: HELP AMMONIA (dont understand where from)
>From: Dick
>Date: 5/31/2004 5:53 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 30 May 2004 17:57:04 -0700, (nuchumYussel) wrote:
>
>>As the subject indicates, i have a problem with my ammonia. I have a
>>20 Gallon tank. About a month and a half ago, I bought an Eheim
>>Liberty. The Eheim was there to replace my Penguin Bio-Wheel. I left
>>BOTH filters running for a month and a half. Today, I did a water
>>change and took off the Penguin Bio-WHeel. Now, two hours after the
>>water change, I have no nitrites but I do have ammonia. After leaving
>>the test solution in the test tube with water for about 2 or 3
>>minutes, it looks thick and sort of like lemonade. It now looks about
>>done changing, still looking "lemonadey", it seems to be at about 1.5.
>>The wierd thing is that all of the fish are acting normal, no one at
>>the top, no one with fading colors. I have n clue what happened. Can
>>anyone please help me out with this? I have carbon and a bag, would
>>adding some carbon help?
>>
>>TANK VITAL STATS:
>>
>>Temperature: 78
>>Ph: 6.85
>>Nitrite: 0
>>Ammonia: about 1.5
>>Tank age: 10 months
>>Cycled: Was and I hope still is cycled. But I don't know if what i did
>>uncycled it
>>Inhabitants: 1 Pleco (6 in.), 1 Snake Skin Gourami (around 5.5 in.), 6
>>Zebra Tetra, 4 Black Widow Tetra, 2 Serpae Tetra.
>>Heater: 100W Submersable
>>Filter: Liberty Eheim
>>
>>Thanks for looking,
>>Evan Davis
>
>Evan, I tried reading through all you have said, but am puzzled, are
>you having a problem with your tank, or the test kit? I saw no
>mention of plant or fish illness.
>
>I get edgy over the chemist mind set. I don't trust the test sets and
>I don't trust my abilities to interpret the results and make
>knowledgeable adjustments. I killed several fish and hurt many more
>when "adjusting" the pH in my 75 gallon tank. I am not sure why the
>pH went acid so fast, but it did. I have never adjusted for pH again.
>
> You indicate your tank was set up for months and doing well. Why are
>you testing anyway if your tank is doing well? I have 5 tanks set up
>for a year and more. I do my weekly 20% water changes, use water
>straight from the tap and all is well. I only test if something
>doesn't look right. Changing water regularly is the single most
>important thing I do other than be careful not to overfeed and running
>timers on my lighting.

Wow.
You're asking why is the original poster testing his tank levels????
It's because you NEED to. If you don't, you're running your tank blind, so to
speak.
You can't look at a tank and tell if the nitrates are high. You can't look at a
tank and tell if you've had a pH drop or rise.
Waiting till fish drop dead isn't the right way to "test" your water either.
This is a weekly thing.
So, if memory serves me right, you question people who vacuum their gravel and
test their water parameters.
::shakes head in disbelief::

[Ali Day]

> Wow.
> You're asking why is the original poster testing his tank levels????
> It's because you NEED to. If you don't, you're running your tank blind, so
to
> speak.
> You can't look at a tank and tell if the nitrates are high. You can't look
at a
> tank and tell if you've had a pH drop or rise.
> Waiting till fish drop dead isn't the right way to "test" your water
either.
> This is a weekly thing.
> So, if memory serves me right, you question people who vacuum their gravel
and
> test their water parameters.

Sorry, I fall into this category of Philistines who never tests his water
unless I change something drastic, and even if I add a new fish or two, I
know that it will cycle within 24 hours. I do though have an electronic pH
injection system for the Discus, but before I had Discus I didn't monitor
the pH regularly. I know the water quality coming out of my tap, and if it
changes, the nice local authorities drop a little letter through my door.
Why should I test it every week?
I've had one fish drop dead in the last year, and that was because I moved
house, put in a new tank and started from scratch. Even then I seeded the
tank that so well, apart from a green algae bloom because the new plants
weren't taking everything up, I didn't even see a blip on the measurements.

So in response to your NEED to, I would say this is applicable to yourself,
others know how their tanks run, and feel comfortable with it. You feel need
to test your water, but because others don't, doesn't mean they are wrong.
Running decent sized aquarium(s) is not an exactitude but more following
recommendations through others experience. One size does not fit all.

<------ steps down off soap box, and sorry to preach.

Cheers

A

[RedForeman ©®]

"nuchumYussel" > wrote in message
> As the subject indicates, i have a problem with my ammonia. I have a
> 20 Gallon tank. About a month and a half ago, I bought an Eheim
> Liberty. The Eheim was there to replace my Penguin Bio-Wheel. I left
> BOTH filters running for a month and a half. Today, I did a water
> change and took off the Penguin Bio-WHeel. Now, two hours after the
> water change, I have no nitrites but I do have ammonia. After leaving
> the test solution in the test tube with water for about 2 or 3
> minutes, it looks thick and sort of like lemonade. It now looks about
> done changing, still looking "lemonadey", it seems to be at about 1.5.
> The wierd thing is that all of the fish are acting normal, no one at
> the top, no one with fading colors. I have n clue what happened. Can
> anyone please help me out with this? I have carbon and a bag, would
> adding some carbon help?
>
> TANK VITAL STATS:
>
> Temperature: 78
> Ph: 6.85
> Nitrite: 0
> Ammonia: about 1.5
> Tank age: 10 months
> Cycled: Was and I hope still is cycled. But I don't know if what i did
> uncycled it
> Inhabitants: 1 Pleco (6 in.), 1 Snake Skin Gourami (around 5.5 in.), 6
> Zebra Tetra, 4 Black Widow Tetra, 2 Serpae Tetra.
> Heater: 100W Submersable
> Filter: Liberty Eheim
>
> Thanks for looking,
> Evan Davis

Do your filters show signs of having life in them? I know I'll be adding
a filter to a certain tank and will be leaving the existing one running
continuously... read big fish, under filtered as it is.

If your old filter has carbon in it, take it out, otherwise, I'd suppose
you're just going thru a mini-cycle, and maybe it'll just take some water
changes and time to come back down.... YMMV, cuz that's pretty much a non
edumicated guess....

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø


is that better??

[NetMax]

"Ali Day" > wrote in message
...
> > At 6.8pH your fish are probably not bothered by the NH4, which is
there
> > partly because chloramine is ammonia+chlorine (and the de-chlorinator
> > separates them and most do nothing about the NH3/4), and because your
> > filter might have been a little understocked with the nitrifying
> > bacteria.
>
> I thought Ammonium did no real harm to fish (didn't say it was
harmless)
> what ever the pH? I thought it was the ammonia that was negated by a
lower
> PH. Since I cycled my first tank a couple of years back I have never
seen
> ammonia/um, even when I upgraded to the new tank (swimming pool as the
other
> half calls it).

Correct, but as the pH rises, the non-toxic ammonium ions (NH4) starts
converting to toxic ammonia (NH3). There is a graph on most ammonia test
kits showing the rate of change.

> Mind you I'm happier now with the new house and it's water supply. I
don't
> need anywhere near the CO2 injection that I used to, and have managed
to
> bring my PH down from 7 to 6.5 relatively easily.

So your buffer is much lower, yes, this does make it easier, but pH
crashes can also be more likely. Check to see if your buffer is at least
over 3dkH.
--
www.NetMax.tk


> Cheers
>
> A
>
>

[NetMax]

"Ali Day" > wrote in message
...
> > Wow.
> > You're asking why is the original poster testing his tank levels????
> > It's because you NEED to. If you don't, you're running your tank
blind, so
> to
> > speak.
> > You can't look at a tank and tell if the nitrates are high. You can't
look
> at a
> > tank and tell if you've had a pH drop or rise.
> > Waiting till fish drop dead isn't the right way to "test" your water
> either.
> > This is a weekly thing.
> > So, if memory serves me right, you question people who vacuum their
gravel
> and
> > test their water parameters.
>
> Sorry, I fall into this category of Philistines who never tests his
water
> unless I change something drastic, and even if I add a new fish or two,
I
> know that it will cycle within 24 hours. I do though have an electronic
pH
> injection system for the Discus, but before I had Discus I didn't
monitor
> the pH regularly. I know the water quality coming out of my tap, and if
it
> changes, the nice local authorities drop a little letter through my
door.
> Why should I test it every week?
> I've had one fish drop dead in the last year, and that was because I
moved
> house, put in a new tank and started from scratch. Even then I seeded
the
> tank that so well, apart from a green algae bloom because the new
plants
> weren't taking everything up, I didn't even see a blip on the
measurements.
>
> So in response to your NEED to, I would say this is applicable to
yourself,
> others know how their tanks run, and feel comfortable with it. You feel
need
> to test your water, but because others don't, doesn't mean they are
wrong.
> Running decent sized aquarium(s) is not an exactitude but more
following
> recommendations through others experience. One size does not fit all.
>
> <------ steps down off soap box, and sorry to preach.

As long as that soapbox is free ;~)... I don't think apples are being
compared to apples. I have _many_ tanks which I have never tested
outside of exceptional conditions (cycling and an annual pH check). The
more familiar you are with your source water parameters, basic chemistry
and the trends your tanks follow, the less of a requirement there is to
test. The only parameters you need to test are those that change, and if
you know them, then that is all you do (ie: at home I check my gH every 2
months because my well-water likes to change seasonally). If your tank
is running well and everything is within normal ranges and there are no
changing parameters, then you have nothing to test, and any testing you
do is to verify that this is indeed remaining true. However, to reach
that level of confidence, you need to have some data to start with.

There is a significant difference between not testing because of
knowledge and not testing because of ignorance. Many of the posts here
are regarding problem solving, so water parameters are the first and most
important piece of information we can explore. A hobbyist can stay
ignorant and still manage an aquarium beautifully (many people do), by
relying on experience, a recipe and common sense (though these factors
are not universally available to all ;~). However, when something goes
wrong, the test kits come out, so your choices are basically to either
test & know before, - or - test after (when the fish are ill), and if
you are good, this happens very infrequently.

climbs off of soapbox... next?
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Cheers
>
> A
>
>

[Ali Day]

> Correct, but as the pH rises, the non-toxic ammonium ions (NH4) starts
> converting to toxic ammonia (NH3). There is a graph on most ammonia test
> kits showing the rate of change.

Learn something new everyday.

> So your buffer is much lower, yes, this does make it easier, but pH
> crashes can also be more likely. Check to see if your buffer is at least
> over 3dkH.

Sits at about 4 - 5, when I last checked, which is fine for my discus.

Cheers

A

[Ali Day]

> As long as that soapbox is free ;~)... I don't think apples are being
> compared to apples. I have _many_ tanks which I have never tested
> outside of exceptional conditions (cycling and an annual pH check). The
> more familiar you are with your source water parameters, basic chemistry
> and the trends your tanks follow, the less of a requirement there is to
> test. The only parameters you need to test are those that change, and if
> you know them, then that is all you do (ie: at home I check my gH every 2
> months because my well-water likes to change seasonally). If your tank
> is running well and everything is within normal ranges and there are no
> changing parameters, then you have nothing to test, and any testing you
> do is to verify that this is indeed remaining true. However, to reach
> that level of confidence, you need to have some data to start with.
>
> There is a significant difference between not testing because of
> knowledge and not testing because of ignorance. Many of the posts here
> are regarding problem solving, so water parameters are the first and most
> important piece of information we can explore. A hobbyist can stay
> ignorant and still manage an aquarium beautifully (many people do), by
> relying on experience, a recipe and common sense (though these factors
> are not universally available to all ;~). However, when something goes
> wrong, the test kits come out, so your choices are basically to either
> test & know before, - or - test after (when the fish are ill), and if
> you are good, this happens very infrequently.

Quite right and more eloquently put than I could have written, but in
essence it is the the same as I have written, it is not a necessity to test,
but on personal experience and confidence in your of water quality. You
mentioned your gH, I take it you have pH testing? Do you test for anything
else frequently?

Cheers

A

[NetMax]

"Ali Day" > wrote in message
...
<snip> The only parameters you need to test are those that change, and if
> > you know them, then that is all you do (ie: at home I check my gH
every 2
> > months because my well-water likes to change seasonally). If your
tank
> > is running well and everything is within normal ranges and there are
no
> > changing parameters, then you have nothing to test, and any testing
you
> > do is to verify that this is indeed remaining true. However, to
reach
> > that level of confidence, you need to have some data to start with.
<snip>
>
> Quite right and more eloquently put than I could have written, but in
> essence it is the the same as I have written, it is not a necessity to
test,
> but on personal experience and confidence in your of water quality. You
> mentioned your gH, I take it you have pH testing? Do you test for
anything
> else frequently?

Elequently? *thanks*, I just think I get wordy ;~) It was in basic
agreement, basing rate of tests against familiarity. What I test
basically depends on what changes.

When I move, I start by doing a single test run of whatever I have
available (ie: pH, gH, kH, NO3). If I'm in the country (well-water) I
usually have a water record report with my deed. Then I'll progressively
test less and less. Where I am now, my kH hovers around 13 to 16dkH, so
I stopped checking. Basically it's high enough to buffer my pH, case
closed. My 8.2pH never wavers, so I've also stopped testing that. My
hardness bounces between 6 and 38dgH. As this is a considerable swing, I
check it periodically. When at 38dgH, half the water I use for water
changes comes from my water softener. This tends to keep the tanks in
the 12 to 24dgH range, and because I'm lazy, I match fish to water
(instead of water to fish), so I have mostly African cichlids. The only
other measurement I do is tank NO3, which gives me an indication of where
my fish-plant balance is. In the country, it's a good idea to test
source NO3 to see if any agricultural run-off is affecting you. This
will be most pronounced during spring run-off and several days after
heavy rains. Much of the UK tends to have elevated NO3 even in their
municipal supply.

In the city, a quick call to your local city lab will get you all the
details you need (chlorine-chloramine, what concentration, what pH, what
is their source water etc etc). If your municipal supply is well-water,
then you have some interest in knowing if you have seasonal variations
(gH, kH and pH). Deep wells are far more stable (and usually harder)
than artesian wells (which may give you a mix of softer water). If your
municipal supply is a river, then the kH is usually low and bears
watching if it hovers around 3-4dkH.

In either case, municipal water is treated, and the concentration of
chlorine or chloramines used will often vary according to public works.
Whenever construction or pipe cleaning is being done, they increase the
amount of disinfectants used. If they are on your street working on the
pipes, it's a good idea to double your de-chlor dosage (or skip your
water changes for a while). There are also seasonal adjustments. More
disinfectants are used during snowmelt / spring run-off than during dry
spells, so some discretion is needed. I test for chlorine at work
because I use carbon filters, but for residential aquariums I don't
bother.

Lastly, treatment centers are quite agressive at sterilizing water
(making it very acidic to kill bacteria), so the last step is to make the
water alkaline again, very alkaline - to reduce the corrosion of their
piping infrastructure. Our municipality uses caustic soda, which I
understand is fairly typical. They assure me that the water is 9.1pH
when it leaves the treatment centre. Fortunately, it is 7.7pH by the
time it reaches most homes, but the point is that your home's proximity
to the treatment plant supplying your water will influence both your pH
magnitude and stability. Basically, the pH will be at its highest when
the pipes are in high service, and at its lowest when the water has sat.
Doing water changes on a Sunday night might give very different results
from doing them on a Monday afternoon, and the farther away from the
plant you are, the less pronounced this effect becomes. For this
phenomenon, I test my pH periodically to see if I have any peak times to
avoid. Luckily, it only varies by about 0.2pH where we are (fairly far
from the plants). Note that you might need to let your water sample air
for several hours to get a proper pH reading. Water under high pressure,
especially from well sources will have a lot of dissolved gases which
will skew the pH test. If you are not sure, take a water sample and test
it the following day.

You see, I got wordy again ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk


> Cheers
>
> A
>
>

[Ali Day]

> In the country, it's a good idea to test
> source NO3 to see if any agricultural run-off is affecting you. This
> will be most pronounced during spring run-off and several days after
> heavy rains. Much of the UK tends to have elevated NO3 even in their
> municipal supply.

I am a Brit, but I live on the French Swiss Border nr Geneva, and I walk out
of my back door straight into a mountain, which is where the reservoirs are.
I tend to fill my tank straight from the tap, and since I've been here had
no real problems.

I read with amazement at the lengths that some people have to go to, to
treat their water, I don't think I could handle that every week or so. The
maintenance on my tank takes me half an hour a week, and most of that is
spent with a beer watching the rugby as the tank refills. It comes out at
about 7.5 ph and its hard enough to buffer the PH but not hard enough so
that it's a nightmare to change it down to the 6.6 - 6.7 ish. and I've never
seen any chemicals levels in my tap water.

> You see, I got wordy again ;~)

But hey you kept in single and double syllable words so I could understand
it!

Cheers

A

[TYNK 7]

(snipped)

>Subject: Re: HELP AMMONIA (dont understand where from)
>From: "NetMax"
>Date: 6/2/2004 11:42 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >

>There is a significant difference between not testing because of
>knowledge and not testing because of ignorance. Many of the posts here
>are regarding problem solving, so water parameters are the first and most
>important piece of information we can explore.

That is why I said what I did.
Too many people ask for help wondering why their fish all died, and when you
ask them what their water chemistry was, they don't have a clue. Had they been
testing it, there could have been red flags before their fish all died.

[Dick]

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:03:02 +0200, "Ali Day"
> wrote:

>> In the country, it's a good idea to test
>> source NO3 to see if any agricultural run-off is affecting you. This
>> will be most pronounced during spring run-off and several days after
>> heavy rains. Much of the UK tends to have elevated NO3 even in their
>> municipal supply.
>
>I am a Brit, but I live on the French Swiss Border nr Geneva, and I walk out
>of my back door straight into a mountain, which is where the reservoirs are.
>I tend to fill my tank straight from the tap, and since I've been here had
>no real problems.
>
>I read with amazement at the lengths that some people have to go to, to
>treat their water, I don't think I could handle that every week or so. The
>maintenance on my tank takes me half an hour a week, and most of that is
>spent with a beer watching the rugby as the tank refills. It comes out at
>about 7.5 ph and its hard enough to buffer the PH but not hard enough so
>that it's a nightmare to change it down to the 6.6 - 6.7 ish. and I've never
>seen any chemicals levels in my tap water.
>
>> You see, I got wordy again ;~)
>
>But hey you kept in single and double syllable words so I could understand
>it!
>
>Cheers
>
>A
>

I agree with you, I use straight tap water which is from the city
wells. Early on I decided to get fish and plants which could get
along with my water and light conditions. That meant low light
plants. I haven't had any fish problems except one time when I
screwed up while lowering the pH. It went acid and cost me several
fish and panic until I could get enough water changed to get the pH
back up. That was the only mass failure I have had.

I can understand that in some places water conditions are not right
for fish, but I sure wouldn't just assume that and go into the
chemistry business. I can also understand that some people could
enjoy getting, what they consider, perfect conditions. I see that the
same as a person getting a fine car and keeping it in perfect running
condition. One style does not fit all.

It must be hard to look at your fish tanks when you are surrounded by
so much outside beauty. I love living in ranch land. After 12 years
I still enjoy looking out over the vastness of it, but I am glad to
have the rich colors that my fish and plants provide.

[Ali Day]

> I agree with you, I use straight tap water which is from the city
> wells. Early on I decided to get fish and plants which could get
> along with my water and light conditions. That meant low light
> plants. I haven't had any fish problems except one time when I
> screwed up while lowering the pH. It went acid and cost me several
> fish and panic until I could get enough water changed to get the pH
> back up. That was the only mass failure I have had.

I had a close call about 2 years back, I used to bubble CO2 through the tank
but it wasn't controlled by the electronic gadgetry I have now. Went out for
a night and stayed round friends and when we got back, I found the CO2 unit
had basically dumped a half kilo bottle into the tank overnight, and the PH
was about 4.5 ish. I have these glass ampoules of bacteria in my cupboard
just for emergencies, and dumped enough for 2000L into a 350L tank, brought
the pH back up with a air line and only lost one fish out of 25ish. I don't
have an air bubbler running in my tank, but I have one installed, and ready
just to plug in though, in the event of an emergency hasn't been used in 2
years though.

> I can understand that in some places water conditions are not right
> for fish, but I sure wouldn't just assume that and go into the
> chemistry business. I can also understand that some people could
> enjoy getting, what they consider, perfect conditions. I see that the
> same as a person getting a fine car and keeping it in perfect running
> condition. One style does not fit all.

I'm very lucky with my water quality, it seems it's harder to lower pH than
to raise it, not that I've ever tried. I always wanted discus, and my water
quality here is not far off being spot on to have them, compared to when I
lived in the UK.

> It must be hard to look at your fish tanks when you are surrounded by
> so much outside beauty.

I do consider myself to be lucky in that respect as well, but that's why I
bought a 6ft fish tank, to keep my interest in the tank.

Cheers

A

[Dick]

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 14:46:01 +0200, "Ali Day"
> wrote:

>> I agree with you, I use straight tap water which is from the city
>> wells. Early on I decided to get fish and plants which could get
>> along with my water and light conditions. That meant low light
>> plants. I haven't had any fish problems except one time when I
>> screwed up while lowering the pH. It went acid and cost me several
>> fish and panic until I could get enough water changed to get the pH
>> back up. That was the only mass failure I have had.
>
>I had a close call about 2 years back, I used to bubble CO2 through the tank
>but it wasn't controlled by the electronic gadgetry I have now. Went out for
>a night and stayed round friends and when we got back, I found the CO2 unit
>had basically dumped a half kilo bottle into the tank overnight, and the PH
>was about 4.5 ish. I have these glass ampoules of bacteria in my cupboard
>just for emergencies, and dumped enough for 2000L into a 350L tank, brought
>the pH back up with a air line and only lost one fish out of 25ish. I don't
>have an air bubbler running in my tank, but I have one installed, and ready
>just to plug in though, in the event of an emergency hasn't been used in 2
>years though.
>
>> I can understand that in some places water conditions are not right
>> for fish, but I sure wouldn't just assume that and go into the
>> chemistry business. I can also understand that some people could
>> enjoy getting, what they consider, perfect conditions. I see that the
>> same as a person getting a fine car and keeping it in perfect running
>> condition. One style does not fit all.
>
>I'm very lucky with my water quality, it seems it's harder to lower pH than
>to raise it, not that I've ever tried. I always wanted discus, and my water
>quality here is not far off being spot on to have them, compared to when I
>lived in the UK.
>
>> It must be hard to look at your fish tanks when you are surrounded by
>> so much outside beauty.
>
>I do consider myself to be lucky in that respect as well, but that's why I
>bought a 6ft fish tank, to keep my interest in the tank.
>
>Cheers
>
>A
>

Living in a small town far from good sources for most anything, I have
cabinets and a garage full of back up stuff for the complicated stuff
like fish, car, motorhome, computers, etc. Funny, when I have
backups, I don't seem to need them. Good insurance. Great estate
sale when I am gone. <g>

[Dick]

On 03 Jun 2004 16:06:33 GMT, (TYNK 7) wrote:

>(snipped)
>
>>Subject: Re: HELP AMMONIA (dont understand where from)
>>From: "NetMax"
>>Date: 6/2/2004 11:42 AM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>
>>There is a significant difference between not testing because of
>>knowledge and not testing because of ignorance. Many of the posts here
>>are regarding problem solving, so water parameters are the first and most
>>important piece of information we can explore.
>
>That is why I said what I did.
>Too many people ask for help wondering why their fish all died, and when you
>ask them what their water chemistry was, they don't have a clue. Had they been
>testing it, there could have been red flags before their fish all died.
>
>
For all my gripes about over testing, I do keep test kits and do run
tests if I am suspicious of a problem. I am not surprised that people
don't keep kits on hand and test regularly. I don't test regularly.
When I have tested, the water is always the same results except back
when I did test and control and managed to kill several fish by
driving the water acid. That was the end of my concern for having
"perfect" water parameters. Still, I agree, it is good to know the
water chemistry when there is a problem to solve. I gather lots of
LFS will do the test for their customers. Probably more important,
the LFS can interpret the readings.

However, with all said, I still am happier to let my pH stay at 7.8
than try to keep it down in my 5 tanks.. to 7.0. Changing water is
more important in my book than changing chemistry. Not having to make
adjustments makes it easier to do the water change making it more
likely I will do so every week.

[Phil]

> How would that cause an ammonia reading? (serious question here)

Chlorine brings holocaust to your newly established nitrifying bacteria...
ammonia rises as nothing is converting it to nitrite=>nitrate

[squag]

Dick wrote:
> On 03 Jun 2004 16:06:33 GMT, (TYNK 7) wrote:
>
>
>>(snipped)
>>
>>
>>>Subject: Re: HELP AMMONIA (dont understand where from)
>>>From: "NetMax"
>>>Date: 6/2/2004 11:42 AM Central Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>There is a significant difference between not testing because of
>>>knowledge and not testing because of ignorance. Many of the posts here
>>>are regarding problem solving, so water parameters are the first and most
>>>important piece of information we can explore.
>>
>>That is why I said what I did.
>>Too many people ask for help wondering why their fish all died, and when you
>>ask them what their water chemistry was, they don't have a clue. Had they been
>>testing it, there could have been red flags before their fish all died.
>>
>>
>
> For all my gripes about over testing, I do keep test kits and do run
> tests if I am suspicious of a problem. I am not surprised that people
> don't keep kits on hand and test regularly. I don't test regularly.
> When I have tested, the water is always the same results except back
> when I did test and control and managed to kill several fish by
> driving the water acid. That was the end of my concern for having
> "perfect" water parameters. Still, I agree, it is good to know the
> water chemistry when there is a problem to solve. I gather lots of
> LFS will do the test for their customers. Probably more important,
> the LFS can interpret the readings.
>
> However, with all said, I still am happier to let my pH stay at 7.8
> than try to keep it down in my 5 tanks.. to 7.0. Changing water is
> more important in my book than changing chemistry. Not having to make
> adjustments makes it easier to do the water change making it more
> likely I will do so every week.


I agree fully! My PH sets a little lighter then 7 and I don't bother
touching it. My nitrate always seems to be between 20 and 30 and I
manage it by changing water every week. I hate adding any chemicals
into the tank.

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: HELP AMMONIA (dont understand where from)
>From: squag
>Date: 11/27/2004 10:06 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Dick wrote:
>> On 03 Jun 2004 16:06:33 GMT, (TYNK 7) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>(snipped)
>>>
>>>
>>>>Subject: Re: HELP AMMONIA (dont understand where from)
>>>>From: "NetMax"
>>>>Date: 6/2/2004 11:42 AM Central Daylight Time
>>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>>There is a significant difference between not testing because of
>>>>knowledge and not testing because of ignorance. Many of the posts here
>>>>are regarding problem solving, so water parameters are the first and most
>>>>important piece of information we can explore.
>>>
>>>That is why I said what I did.
>>>Too many people ask for help wondering why their fish all died, and when
>you
>>>ask them what their water chemistry was, they don't have a clue. Had they
>been
>>>testing it, there could have been red flags before their fish all died.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> For all my gripes about over testing, I do keep test kits and do run
>> tests if I am suspicious of a problem. I am not surprised that people
>> don't keep kits on hand and test regularly. I don't test regularly.
>> When I have tested, the water is always the same results except back
>> when I did test and control and managed to kill several fish by
>> driving the water acid. That was the end of my concern for having
>> "perfect" water parameters. Still, I agree, it is good to know the
>> water chemistry when there is a problem to solve. I gather lots of
>> LFS will do the test for their customers. Probably more important,
>> the LFS can interpret the readings.
>>
>> However, with all said, I still am happier to let my pH stay at 7.8
>> than try to keep it down in my 5 tanks.. to 7.0. Changing water is
>> more important in my book than changing chemistry. Not having to make
>> adjustments makes it easier to do the water change making it more
>> likely I will do so every week.
>
>
>I agree fully! My PH sets a little lighter then 7 and I don't bother
>touching it. My nitrate always seems to be between 20 and 30 and I
>manage it by changing water every week. I hate adding any chemicals
>into the tank.

Wow...this was a subject from June.
Anyway, I never commented that you *should* mess with pH. That was the other
poster reading into what I had said about *monitoring* your tank's water
chemistry.
That means a heck of lot more than what's your pH.
Personally, I recommend NOT messing around with pH, as most fish can adjust to
it (unless it's in the extremes), or when spawning requirements of low or high
pH are needed.
So, knowing the topic was about *ammonia*, I'm still not sure why the other
poster was talking about changing the pH.

[Michi Henning]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
>
> Personally, I recommend NOT messing around with pH, as most fish can adjust
to
> it (unless it's in the extremes), or when spawning requirements of low or
high
> pH are needed.

Products such as "pH Up" and "pH Down" mess with the ion balance and, if used
too much, can result in a very unnatural ion distribution. A far better way to
get the
pH into the correct range is to adjust carbonate hardness instead. That will
set the
pH where you want it without overloading the water with ions in unnatural
proportions
(such as a lot of extra Cl from pushing the pH down with hydrochloric acid, or
extra
Na from pushing it up with sodium hydroxide). If the KH and GH in degrees are
roughly equal, you also have an ion balance that is about right.

> So, knowing the topic was about *ammonia*, I'm still not sure why the other
> poster was talking about changing the pH.

Possibly because, at a pH < 7, ammonia is present as the much less toxic
ammonium ion? (Incidentally, I've come across quite a number of articles
that suggest that fish deaths after water changes may be due to ammonium
changing to ammonia. If the tap water has a high pH (which is often the case),
doing a water change can raise the pH high enough to have most of the
ammonium in a tank turn into ammonia, so the fish die from acute ammonia
poisoning. The same effect is also sometimes blamed for leaf melt on crypts --
the plant dies from ammonia poisoning.)

Of course, a tank with a properly working filter will have ammonia levels
that are too low to be detectable with an aquarium test kit.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com