I am a greenie here are my stats please advize if you see fit.

[Christy84065]

-I have a 10 gal tank
-silent filter that came with the tank
-1 live plant
-5 female guppies
-2 male guppies
-1 common oh I can't remember algea eater he's the one that get real
big and are aggressive
-breeder net
-I use salt (1 tbsp per 5 gal.)
-I feed my fish twice daily but am not sure exactly how much I should
feed for the amount of fish I have
-I have one of the males that several times now I have thought he was
dead he would lay on the bottom of the tank. and later I would find
him swimming around with the others at first I thought he might have
gotten in a fight as there was a small chunk missing in his tail, but
now there is another. I have never seen any agression shown him so I
don't know what is going on.

[Dick]

On 5 Jun 2004 00:09:42 -0700,
(Christy84065) wrote:

>-I have a 10 gal tank
>-silent filter that came with the tank
>-1 live plant
>-5 female guppies
>-2 male guppies
>-1 common oh I can't remember algea eater he's the one that get real
>big and are aggressive
>-breeder net
>-I use salt (1 tbsp per 5 gal.)
>-I feed my fish twice daily but am not sure exactly how much I should
>feed for the amount of fish I have
>-I have one of the males that several times now I have thought he was
>dead he would lay on the bottom of the tank. and later I would find
>him swimming around with the others at first I thought he might have
>gotten in a fight as there was a small chunk missing in his tail, but
>now there is another. I have never seen any agression shown him so I
>don't know what is going on.

How long have you had your tank? I am surprised it isn't full of
babies. Too bad you don't know the name of your algae eater. Any
aggressive fish is a problem, especially in a small tank. Have you
asked your LFS if you could trade for something else? I have heard
that the "American Flag" fish is good in a community tank and maximum
growth under 2 inches. I want to get some someday when my tank
populations go down. I keep getting new babies. That is why I wonder
why you have so few guppies, they are renowned for their reproductive
habits!

Feeding fish in a small tank is quite a challenge. I have 3 ten
gallon tanks plus a 29 and 75. I am much more cautious feeding the
ten gallon tanks. You don't mention what food you are feeding. I
feed all my fish flake food since I have to get it through the
internet.

I feed the ten gallon tanks much more slowly, especially one that has
smaller egg laying fish. Their mouths are small and I pinch the
larger flakes so as to get a mix of small and large (for 2 larger
fish). Watch as they eat. When they are hungry they lunge for the
food. If food is reaching the bottom, I stop feeding. In another 10
gallon tank I have some larger live bearers. They are easier to feed
as they are aggressive top eaters. It is easy to see them slow and
warn me to stop feeding.

Do you do water changes? I change 20% each week. I don't adjust my
water chemistry, but I do believe in scheduled water change. It
covers a lot of other sins.

I do not use salt. I did at one time since I have a large Molly
population in most of my tanks. However, I wasn't consistent and I
gave up on conditioning my water. I prefer to let the tank conditions
choose the survivors. Keeping maintenance simple assures I will
actually do the water changes which I think is valuable.

I like to have lots of plants and at least one cave ornament. I
notice my fish like to hide or rest sometimes. Not all rest or hide,
but enough I don't consider it bad. Sometimes bottom resting is an
indicator of ill health. Fin nipping can be limited if the victim has
places to hide thus lots of plants and a cave to escape to.

[NetMax]

"Christy84065" > wrote in message
om...
> -I have a 10 gal tank
> -silent filter that came with the tank

You might want to identify the particular make & model if you need
specific advice.

> -1 live plant
> -5 female guppies
> -2 male guppies
> -1 common oh I can't remember algea eater he's the one that get real
> big and are aggressive

Probably the common plecostomous or pleco.

> -breeder net
> -I use salt (1 tbsp per 5 gal.)
> -I feed my fish twice daily but am not sure exactly how much I should
> feed for the amount of fish I have

What they will eat in about 3-4 minutes will be fine. Don't leave
uneaten food in the tank. Throw the occasional algae wafer in for the
pleco.

> -I have one of the males that several times now I have thought he was
> dead he would lay on the bottom of the tank. and later I would find
> him swimming around with the others at first I thought he might have
> gotten in a fight as there was a small chunk missing in his tail, but
> now there is another. I have never seen any agression shown him so I
> don't know what is going on.

Guppies can nip each other's tails on occasion. Ammonia can also 'burn'
their tails or cause them to be more fragile. The most important aspect
of an aquarium is the quality of the water, which is directly related to
its age and the servicing methods used on the filters. If it is less
than 6 weeks old, then read about new tank syndrome. This might explain
the behaviour you are seeing.

http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html

Otherwise, if the tank is mature and the water parameters are all good
(no ammonia, no nitrites, low nitrates, de-chlorinated) and the water is
not an extreme to where your fish come from, then the next logically
place to look is at health issues. Guppies are somewhat fragile (and
might not mean there is a problem), however it's really best to verify
the basics, water parameters and temperature. hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Cris]

Stop using salt! None of those fish need salt in the water and it can
be detrimental to them. No freshwater fish should have salt added to
the water. Read up on osmosis/osmotic pressure and how it affects
freshwater vs sal****er vs brackish fish. There was a great article
in the February issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist. Putting freshwater
fish in salted water just causes undo stress on the fish.

Also, I think you already realize that the algae eater can't stay in
the 10g tank. It needs a much larger tank.

Cris

On 5 Jun 2004 00:09:42 -0700,
(Christy84065) wrote:

>-I use salt (1 tbsp per 5 gal.)

[NetMax]

Not withstanding the pleco, I would be very surprised to read a TFH
article which suggested that 1 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons could in
any way be harmful to Guppies. I wish I had that issue. Sounds
interesting if they are bringing new data forward.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Cris" > wrote in message
s.com...
> Stop using salt! None of those fish need salt in the water and it can
> be detrimental to them. No freshwater fish should have salt added to
> the water. Read up on osmosis/osmotic pressure and how it affects
> freshwater vs sal****er vs brackish fish. There was a great article
> in the February issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist. Putting freshwater
> fish in salted water just causes undo stress on the fish.
>
> Also, I think you already realize that the algae eater can't stay in
> the 10g tank. It needs a much larger tank.
>
> Cris
>
> On 5 Jun 2004 00:09:42 -0700,
> (Christy84065) wrote:
>
> >-I use salt (1 tbsp per 5 gal.)
>

[Cris]

It's not new data, it's just that so many people are unaware of
osmotic pressure and it's affects on fish. There's no indication that
a bit of salt in the water will kill freshwater fish outright, but
over time it can affect kidney function since the kidneys have to work
harder to compensate for the unnatural salt content. If the salt
content is high enough, it can even cause the gills to malfunction.

Get the TFH article if you can - libraries come in handy here. I
think it's important for us all to understand how osmosis works - not
just with salt, but also with all dissolved solids.

Cris

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:16:49 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>Not withstanding the pleco, I would be very surprised to read a TFH
>article which suggested that 1 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons could in
>any way be harmful to Guppies. I wish I had that issue. Sounds
>interesting if they are bringing new data forward.

[Christy84065]

Q. Specify make and model...
A.I have a whisper filter the kind the hooks onto the outside. And my
tank is glass...

Q. How long have you had your tank?
A. I have had my tank set up for about 2 weeks

Q. I am surprised it isn't full of babies.
A. Well...I had babies from my original set of guppies, but I am an
impatient person and did not know that the tank needed to sit for 24
hours before inserting any life and I killed all but 1 of the fish.
Believe me I feel bad, I promise I am not a troll. I just don't think
these have had enough time to have babies, but a couple of my girls
look ready to pop. I also wonder know no w that my temp has not been
ideal for my fish. It has been in the 70s'. So I bought a heater
today before work and will be installing it as soon as I get home and
inching the temp a little at a time till it gets to the right temp.

Q. Too bad you don't know the name of your algae eater.
A. Thanks to a fellow poster I remembered that it is infact the common
plecostomous or pleco.

Q. Have you asked your LFS if you could trade for something else?
A. I have not called them yet, but that is in my plan, I remember now
how big and lazy they get. I will look up info on the American flag
ones?!?

Q. Feeding fish in a small tank is quite a challenge. You don't
mention what food you are feeding.
A. The problem is not that they aren't eating, but the food swirls
around in the current from the filter and gets knocked off the surface
and down it goes, they keep eating it and follow it to the bottom if
they can. I am feeding them flake food for tropical fish.

Q. Do you do water changes?
A. I just did my first, actually. I have been a slacker, but also
been unsure and only recently been really informed thanks to you great
people. I just bought a siphon and will suck all that crap from the
bottom as soon as I get home.

Q. Fin nipping can be limited if the victim has places to hide thus
lots of plants and a cave to escape to.
A. I have 2 caves, but I think the pleco can get into both still. He
still is quite small.

Cris said: Also, I think you already realize that the algae eater
can't stay in
the 10g tank. It needs a much larger tank.
A. Yes I will be trading him in.

I assume that the TFH article would be The Fish Hobyist?.? And where
can I find it? Tanks for all your input. (pun intended) *U*

[Christy84065]

Cris > wrote in message >...
> It's not new data, it's just that so many people are unaware of
> osmotic pressure and it's affects on fish. There's no indication that
> a bit of salt in the water will kill freshwater fish outright, but
> over time it can affect kidney function since the kidneys have to work
> harder to compensate for the unnatural salt content. If the salt
> content is high enough, it can even cause the gills to malfunction.
>
> Get the TFH article if you can - libraries come in handy here. I
> think it's important for us all to understand how osmosis works - not
> just with salt, but also with all dissolved solids.
>
> Cris
>
> On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:16:49 -0400, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
> >Not withstanding the pleco, I would be very surprised to read a TFH
> >article which suggested that 1 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons could in
> >any way be harmful to Guppies. I wish I had that issue. Sounds
> >interesting if they are bringing new data forward.

In response to this message I used the exact phrasing " osmotic
pressure and it's affects on fish " and found this link
http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/osmosis.html which says that
freshwater fish need salt...guppies are fresh water right?...

[NetMax]

interspersed....
"Christy84065" > wrote in message
om...
> Q. Specify make and model...
> A.I have a whisper filter the kind the hooks onto the outside. And my
> tank is glass...

The characteristics of any filter which uses proprietary filter sleeves
(carbon inside and floss outside), is that the expense is higher (from
replacing the cartridge), their biological capacity is limited (they have
a small surface area for bacteria), and their mechanical surface area is
limited (surface area thing again). The most problematic aspect is that
you throw away valuable nitrifying bacteria when you replace the sleeve
to get the new carbon. A workaround is to keep the old sleeve working
for several weeks beside the new sleeve. If your type has plastic
compartments to just replace the carbon, this is a better design which
will not have mini-cycles of ammonia when serviced for carbon.

> Q. How long have you had your tank?
> A. I have had my tank set up for about 2 weeks

New tank syndrome lasts from 4 to 6 weeks. Water tests will determine
your state. Water changes will dilute any toxcitity which is building
up. Check out that site I gave you on cycling, and don't hesitate to
post of you have any questions.

> Q. I am surprised it isn't full of babies.
> A. Well...I had babies from my original set of guppies, but I am an
> impatient person and did not know that the tank needed to sit for 24
> hours before inserting any life and I killed all but 1 of the fish.
> Believe me I feel bad, I promise I am not a troll. I just don't think
> these have had enough time to have babies, but a couple of my girls
> look ready to pop. I also wonder know no w that my temp has not been
> ideal for my fish. It has been in the 70s'. So I bought a heater
> today before work and will be installing it as soon as I get home and
> inching the temp a little at a time till it gets to the right temp.
>
> Q. Too bad you don't know the name of your algae eater.
> A. Thanks to a fellow poster I remembered that it is infact the common
> plecostomous or pleco.
>
> Q. Have you asked your LFS if you could trade for something else?
> A. I have not called them yet, but that is in my plan, I remember now
> how big and lazy they get. I will look up info on the American flag
> ones?!?

In a 2 week tank, you do not need plecos or flag fish (which incidentally
do not eat the same stuff).

> Q. Feeding fish in a small tank is quite a challenge. You don't
> mention what food you are feeding.
> A. The problem is not that they aren't eating, but the food swirls
> around in the current from the filter and gets knocked off the surface
> and down it goes, they keep eating it and follow it to the bottom if
> they can. I am feeding them flake food for tropical fish.

Loss of appetite is normal when ammonia and/or nitrite levels are getting
high. The food is polluting the tank. Until the tank is cycled, reduce
the amount of food being used.

> Q. Do you do water changes?
> A. I just did my first, actually. I have been a slacker, but also
> been unsure and only recently been really informed thanks to you great
> people. I just bought a siphon and will suck all that crap from the
> bottom as soon as I get home.

Good idea. Depending on your water parameters, you might need to be
doing some agressive water changes. Doing 30% twice a day is not unheard
of during the ammonia and nitrite spikes,
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Q. Fin nipping can be limited if the victim has places to hide thus
> lots of plants and a cave to escape to.
> A. I have 2 caves, but I think the pleco can get into both still. He
> still is quite small.
>
> Cris said: Also, I think you already realize that the algae eater
> can't stay in
> the 10g tank. It needs a much larger tank.
> A. Yes I will be trading him in.
>
> I assume that the TFH article would be The Fish Hobyist?.? And where
> can I find it? Tanks for all your input. (pun intended) *U*

[Christy84065]

I got the heater in the tank lastnight and the temp is slowly rising.
I also bought a treatment for the fin rot, or jagged fin my males are
experiencing and I put it in lastnight and the boys already look
better. I did a strip test in my tank as well and these are the
results...
Nitrate... 20 ...safe
Nitrite... 3.0 ... stress
Hardness ... 300 ... Very hard
Alkaline ... 180 ... Ideal
Ph ... neutral
Do you know how I could make a difference in the levels listed here
that need to change? Tanks in advance (pun intended)

[Cris]

On 6 Jun 2004 00:03:59 -0700,
(Christy84065) wrote:

>In response to this message I used the exact phrasing " osmotic
>pressure and it's affects on fish " and found this link
>http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/osmosis.html which says that
>freshwater fish need salt...guppies are fresh water right?...

This website suggests that raising the salt level helps the kidneys by
relieving them of some of the work they have to do in maintaining the
correct osmotic pressure. This contradicts the TFH author (Mark
Evans) who maintains that raising the salt level forces the kidneys to
adjust to an osmotic pressure that they are not physiologically meant
to deal with. Again, it's a negative affect *over time*. I've heard
people claim that a little salt can act as a general tonic during
stressful times. But if the TFH author is right, I personally can't
see how it would help even if only in the short term.

>I assume that the TFH article would be The Fish Hobyist?.? And where
>can I find it? Tanks for all your input. (pun intended) *U*

Tropical Fish Hobbyist, Feb. 2004 issue. Check your local library, or
you can order back issues from TFH.

[NetMax]

"Christy84065" > wrote in message
m...
> I got the heater in the tank lastnight and the temp is slowly rising.
> I also bought a treatment for the fin rot, or jagged fin my males are
> experiencing and I put it in lastnight and the boys already look
> better. I did a strip test in my tank as well and these are the
> results...
> Nitrate... 20 ...safe
> Nitrite... 3.0 ... stress
> Hardness ... 300 ... Very hard
> Alkaline ... 180 ... Ideal
> Ph ... neutral
> Do you know how I could make a difference in the levels listed here
> that need to change? Tanks in advance (pun intended)

Regarding contradicting advice (ie: salt), welcome to the world of
aquaria, where the answer to almost every question is 'it depends'.

For example, brackish water fish would be exempted as they move back &
forth between freshwater and sal****er, so some salt would be acceptable,
right? I think it's the Scats which as juveniles are 100% freshwater,
and the adults are 100% marine, so what do you do in an aquarium? Monos
move back and forth between 100% freshwater and 100% marine all their
lives, and their fry can be born in marine or in freshwater, what do you
do for them? Your freshwater Molly lives along the sal****er coast,
usually at the output of freshwater rivers. They get a mix all the time,
and I believe waters of different salinities can stratify, so you have
horizontal levels (a fish moving vertically might pass through a salt
water layer into a freshwater layer).

Well educated and very experienced hobbyists have been debating the pros
& cons of sodium in aquariums for a long time. I read that the Sumerians
had fish in ponds in 2400BC, and that the Chinese were domesticating Carp
in 100BC (and that is probably where we got started adding salt for
Goldfish even though they come from freshwater streams). Anyone who
tells you that you absolutely 'have to' or you 'can't' is probably
exceeding their academic qualifications, and that might include the
occasional author who gets an article published in TFH.

For what it's worth, I try to keep fish in 100% freshwater if that's my
water source. If my water source is 0.02% salt, then *that* is what they
get. I don't worry excessively about it.


Returning to your test measurements, the missing element is ammonia, but
I suspect with 20ppm NO3, your might be past the ammonia stage. Water
changes will dilute ammonia and nitrites. Ironically, salt is often
recommended for salt-tolerant fish as it counter-acts the negative
effects of nitrites. While you have trace nitrites, don't be worried
about adding a small quantity of salt back in after a water change (about
a tablespoon per 5 gallons). Later you can decide if you will be
continuing to add salt, but in the short term, you are in a situation
where it does more help than harm. Your pleco is not fond of salt, but
coming from highly oxygenated fast moving streams, they are even less
fond of ammonia and nitrites and might not be expected to survive the
experience anyways.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Christy84065]

Post: Check out that site I gave you on cycling, and don't hesitate to
post of you have any questions.
Response: I did check it out and got some good ideas, if only I could
understand the wordage though. I am no chemistry expert.

Post: In a 2 week tank, you do not need plecos or flag fish (which
incidentally
do not eat the same stuff).
Response: When would you recommend that I get some sort of algea
eater?

Post: A workaround is to keep the old sleeve working for several weeks
beside the new sleeve.
Response: Thankyou for this tip I will put it to use.

[Christy84065]

Dick > wrote in message >...
> On 5 Jun 2004 00:09:42 -0700,
> (Christy84065) wrote:
>
>
> How long have you had your tank? I am surprised it isn't full of
> babies.

WE HAVE BABIES!!! When I left for work today I was able to net one
guppy fry and put him in the baby net, and I knew there was another
but he was hiding real well, so I put in some floating plants for the
babies to come so they don't get eaten hopefully! I am really
EXCITED! I hope I don't kill these ones.

[NetMax]

"Christy84065" > wrote in message
om...
> Post: Check out that site I gave you on cycling, and don't hesitate to
> post of you have any questions.
> Response: I did check it out and got some good ideas, if only I could
> understand the wordage though. I am no chemistry expert.

No problemo, you don't need to be a whiz at chemistry. I've explained
this lots of times in different ways.

Fish waste is what you get whenever you feed them (this is why you feed
less with new tanks, so you have less waste building up before you are
ready). Fish excrete ammonia (reptiles excrete urea, we excrete uric
acid, it's all just types of waste from our digestive systems), and fish
live in their own toilet ;~)

Biological filtration is the ability to process the waste from fish. It
can be done with plants and/or bacteria. The bacteria do the job by
converting the ammonia into nitrites (making it less toxic for the fish),
and then another type of bacteria consumes the nitrites and produces
nitrates. In nature this then becomes nitrogen gas and back into the
food chain, but in the aquarium, bacteria don't efficiently push it past
nitrates. Plants also consume ammonia, but if there is none around, they
will settle for nitrites or even nitrates, but it takes a lot of plants
(or very few fish) for all your biological processing (removing ammonia)
to be done by just plants, so we have to rely on bacteria.

It takes several weeks before you have enough bacteria working for you
(we are talking about billions of them), so this time period is called
'cycling' the tank (when you have more waste production than you have
waste processing capability).

> Post: In a 2 week tank, you do not need plecos or flag fish (which
> incidentally
> do not eat the same stuff).
> Response: When would you recommend that I get some sort of algea
> eater?

Until the tank is cycled, I recommend that you don't add any more fish
(cause they will add to the amount of ammonia, which if it rises too
fast, can kill all your fish). Wait about 2 months. Then add the type
of algae eater which corresponds to the type of algae you are getting (if
you are going to get one at all). In the meantime (cycling) do lots of
partial water changes to keep the ammonia (and later the nitrites) from
getting too high.

> Post: A workaround is to keep the old sleeve working for several weeks
> beside the new sleeve.
> Response: Thankyou for this tip I will put it to use.

Glad to help. We're full of ideas to keep your fish healthy, save you
work and have more fun with the hobby :o)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dick]

NetMax, what a great explaination. I saved your response for future
reference. Thanks,

dick

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 23:56:52 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Christy84065" > wrote in message
om...
>> Post: Check out that site I gave you on cycling, and don't hesitate to
>> post of you have any questions.
>> Response: I did check it out and got some good ideas, if only I could
>> understand the wordage though. I am no chemistry expert.
>
>No problemo, you don't need to be a whiz at chemistry. I've explained
>this lots of times in different ways.
>
>Fish waste is what you get whenever you feed them (this is why you feed
>less with new tanks, so you have less waste building up before you are
>ready). Fish excrete ammonia (reptiles excrete urea, we excrete uric
>acid, it's all just types of waste from our digestive systems), and fish
>live in their own toilet ;~)
>
>Biological filtration is the ability to process the waste from fish. It
>can be done with plants and/or bacteria. The bacteria do the job by
>converting the ammonia into nitrites (making it less toxic for the fish),
>and then another type of bacteria consumes the nitrites and produces
>nitrates. In nature this then becomes nitrogen gas and back into the
>food chain, but in the aquarium, bacteria don't efficiently push it past
>nitrates. Plants also consume ammonia, but if there is none around, they
>will settle for nitrites or even nitrates, but it takes a lot of plants
>(or very few fish) for all your biological processing (removing ammonia)
>to be done by just plants, so we have to rely on bacteria.
>
>It takes several weeks before you have enough bacteria working for you
>(we are talking about billions of them), so this time period is called
>'cycling' the tank (when you have more waste production than you have
>waste processing capability).
>
>> Post: In a 2 week tank, you do not need plecos or flag fish (which
>> incidentally
>> do not eat the same stuff).
>> Response: When would you recommend that I get some sort of algea
>> eater?
>
>Until the tank is cycled, I recommend that you don't add any more fish
>(cause they will add to the amount of ammonia, which if it rises too
>fast, can kill all your fish). Wait about 2 months. Then add the type
>of algae eater which corresponds to the type of algae you are getting (if
>you are going to get one at all). In the meantime (cycling) do lots of
>partial water changes to keep the ammonia (and later the nitrites) from
>getting too high.
>
>> Post: A workaround is to keep the old sleeve working for several weeks
>> beside the new sleeve.
>> Response: Thankyou for this tip I will put it to use.
>
>Glad to help. We're full of ideas to keep your fish healthy, save you
>work and have more fun with the hobby :o)