Fish that need filters

[NetMax]

....soapbox warning

There is no such thing as a fish which must have a filter, anymore than
there is a type of fish which does not need a filter. From a biological
perspective, any fish can be maintained in an aquarium without a filter
if the bio-load it presents, can be handled by the vegetation and
bacteria spread through the tank. That might be a Neon in a 1g, or an
Oscar in a 200g.

If the biological requirements are not met, then doing aggressive water
changes to dilute the toxin levels will maintain most fish, but this does
not mean Goldfish don't need filters because they can live in a bowl,
because in that case the person is doing the job of a biological filter,
diluting the toxins.

For respiration, if the water is stagnant, it will accommodate fewer
fish. If the water is moving (ie: airstone), it can handle more fish,
but water can be moved with a pump, and no filter. Certain fish are
better adapted to periods of low oxygen levels, such as the labyrinths
(ie: Bettas), but a safe O2 level has *nothing* to do with biological
filtration. You can have lots of one and not enough of the other.

The same applies to shrimps, frogs, minnows, snails etc. It's not that
they don't need a filter. They have a small biological footprint, so
their environment might be able to handle all their wastes, and they
might have lower O2 requirements (especially with cooler water), but if
you get too many of any of these, or the environment is too small, then
you better plan to expand your system's biological processing capacity
(ie: adding a filter) or start doing lots of water changes.

ok, I feel better now : )
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Limnophile]

???

You made some good points , but why are you posting this ?

Limnophile

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> ...soapbox warning
>
> There is no such thing as a fish which must have a filter, anymore than
> there is a type of fish which does not need a filter. From a biological
> perspective, any fish can be maintained in an aquarium without a filter
> if the bio-load it presents, can be handled by the vegetation and
> bacteria spread through the tank. That might be a Neon in a 1g, or an
> Oscar in a 200g.
>
> If the biological requirements are not met, then doing aggressive water
> changes to dilute the toxin levels will maintain most fish, but this does
> not mean Goldfish don't need filters because they can live in a bowl,
> because in that case the person is doing the job of a biological filter,
> diluting the toxins.
>
> For respiration, if the water is stagnant, it will accommodate fewer
> fish. If the water is moving (ie: airstone), it can handle more fish,
> but water can be moved with a pump, and no filter. Certain fish are
> better adapted to periods of low oxygen levels, such as the labyrinths
> (ie: Bettas), but a safe O2 level has *nothing* to do with biological
> filtration. You can have lots of one and not enough of the other.
>
> The same applies to shrimps, frogs, minnows, snails etc. It's not that
> they don't need a filter. They have a small biological footprint, so
> their environment might be able to handle all their wastes, and they
> might have lower O2 requirements (especially with cooler water), but if
> you get too many of any of these, or the environment is too small, then
> you better plan to expand your system's biological processing capacity
> (ie: adding a filter) or start doing lots of water changes.
>
> ok, I feel better now : )
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>

[Vicki S]

I agree 100% with ya on this subject! It all depends on the setup.

Vicki

"it is well that war is so terrible, or else we would grow fond of it."
~Robert E. Lee

"May all your babies be born naked and may you be in heaven ten minutes
before the devil knows your dead!!!
~ Irish Proverb

http://shamrock4u.250free.com

[Charles]

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 23:15:04 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>...soapbox warning
>
>There is no such thing as a fish which must have a filter, anymore than
>there is a type of fish which does not need a filter. From a biological
>perspective, any fish can be maintained in an aquarium without a filter
>if the bio-load it presents, can be handled by the vegetation and
>bacteria spread through the tank. That might be a Neon in a 1g, or an
>Oscar in a 200g.
>
>If the biological requirements are not met, then doing aggressive water
>changes to dilute the toxin levels will maintain most fish, but this does
>not mean Goldfish don't need filters because they can live in a bowl,
>because in that case the person is doing the job of a biological filter,
>diluting the toxins.
>
>For respiration, if the water is stagnant, it will accommodate fewer
>fish. If the water is moving (ie: airstone), it can handle more fish,
>but water can be moved with a pump, and no filter. Certain fish are
>better adapted to periods of low oxygen levels, such as the labyrinths
>(ie: Bettas), but a safe O2 level has *nothing* to do with biological
>filtration. You can have lots of one and not enough of the other.
>
>The same applies to shrimps, frogs, minnows, snails etc. It's not that
>they don't need a filter. They have a small biological footprint, so
>their environment might be able to handle all their wastes, and they
>might have lower O2 requirements (especially with cooler water), but if
>you get too many of any of these, or the environment is too small, then
>you better plan to expand your system's biological processing capacity
>(ie: adding a filter) or start doing lots of water changes.
>
>ok, I feel better now : )


Well said, I agree, for what that's worth. filters prolong the
interval between water changes.

Are you into books?

I recommend "Dynamic Aquaria", ISBN 0-12-043792-9.

quite technical, by a couple of folks who set up ecosystem type
aquaria for places like the Smithsonian. All kinds of thinks done
differently from what we in the hobby do. I wish I could remember it
all, I have old timer's disease and can't remember new things very
well.


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[JazzyB]

Also wondering why the rant. Interesting read all the same.
"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> ...soapbox warning
>
> There is no such thing as a fish which must have a filter, anymore than
> there is a type of fish which does not need a filter. From a biological
> perspective, any fish can be maintained in an aquarium without a filter
> if the bio-load it presents, can be handled by the vegetation and
> bacteria spread through the tank. That might be a Neon in a 1g, or an
> Oscar in a 200g.
>
> If the biological requirements are not met, then doing aggressive water
> changes to dilute the toxin levels will maintain most fish, but this does
> not mean Goldfish don't need filters because they can live in a bowl,
> because in that case the person is doing the job of a biological filter,
> diluting the toxins.
>
> For respiration, if the water is stagnant, it will accommodate fewer
> fish. If the water is moving (ie: airstone), it can handle more fish,
> but water can be moved with a pump, and no filter. Certain fish are
> better adapted to periods of low oxygen levels, such as the labyrinths
> (ie: Bettas), but a safe O2 level has *nothing* to do with biological
> filtration. You can have lots of one and not enough of the other.
>
> The same applies to shrimps, frogs, minnows, snails etc. It's not that
> they don't need a filter. They have a small biological footprint, so
> their environment might be able to handle all their wastes, and they
> might have lower O2 requirements (especially with cooler water), but if
> you get too many of any of these, or the environment is too small, then
> you better plan to expand your system's biological processing capacity
> (ie: adding a filter) or start doing lots of water changes.
>
> ok, I feel better now : )
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>

[RedForeman ©®]

|| ???
||
|| You made some good points , but why are you posting this ?
||
|| Limnophile

I could be wrong, but my guess is, to contribute to the futer googler...

Johnny "Greenbehindtheears" gets on the net and asks "Do I need a filter on
my tank" and since Netmax won't be here, he will have probably cashed in
his many patents and is relaxing on a white sandy beach in the tropics...
:-)

Atleast that's why I sometimes ask the 'weird' questions... if not for us,
for someone later...

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø


is that better??

[NetMax]

Why? The post from TYNK7 about Faith (Bettatalk) triggered it, but I get
this all the time at work, "what fish doesn't need a filter?". I just
needed to vent.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"JazzyB" > wrote in message
...
> Also wondering why the rant. Interesting read all the same.
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> > ...soapbox warning
<rant snipped>
> > ok, I feel better now : )

[NetMax]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
> || ???
> ||
> || You made some good points , but why are you posting this ?
> ||
> || Limnophile
>
> I could be wrong, but my guess is, to contribute to the futer
googler...
>
> Johnny "Greenbehindtheears" gets on the net and asks "Do I need a
filter on
> my tank" and since Netmax won't be here, he will have probably cashed
in
> his many patents and is relaxing on a white sandy beach in the
tropics...
> :-)

Actually, it's very nice in Tokelau today (and for the rest of the week).
Just a few clouds, barely any wind and it's 73F (though it feels like
86F). I'd be hunting for some tomatoes & vodka (already lots of clams on
the beach) and make myself a pitcher of Bloody Caeser. Then I'd stick my
hammock poles down on the beach, and start sipping. ;~)

But right now, it is hot, humid and raining in Ottawa, and my car is up
on jacks, so back to work I go : (
--
www.NetMax.tk


> Atleast that's why I sometimes ask the 'weird' questions... if not for
us,
> for someone later...
>
> --
> RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
> streetfighter!!! ==========================
> 2003 TRX450ES
> 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
> '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
> ==========================
> ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
>
>
> is that better??
>
>

[RedForeman ©®]

|| "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
||| I could be wrong, but my guess is, to contribute to the futer
||| googler...
|||
||| Johnny "Greenbehindtheears" gets on the net and asks "Do I need a
||| filter on my tank" and since Netmax won't be here, he will have
||| probably cashed in his many patents and is relaxing on a white
||| sandy beach in the tropics... :-)
||
|| Actually, it's very nice in Tokelau today (and for the rest of the
|| week). Just a few clouds, barely any wind and it's 73F (though it
|| feels like 86F). I'd be hunting for some tomatoes & vodka (already
|| lots of clams on the beach) and make myself a pitcher of Bloody
|| Caeser. Then I'd stick my hammock poles down on the beach, and
|| start sipping. ;~)
||
|| But right now, it is hot, humid and raining in Ottawa, and my car is
|| up on jacks, so back to work I go : (
|| --
|| www.NetMax.tk

Wouldn't that be nice... Tihiti is where I'd like to be... but that's
another dream....

Jacks??? Man... that DOES suck.. leave work, to go to work... ugh....

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø


is that better??

[JazzyB]

No problem. BTW, like the site, very helpful.
"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> Why? The post from TYNK7 about Faith (Bettatalk) triggered it, but I get
> this all the time at work, "what fish doesn't need a filter?". I just
> needed to vent.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
> "JazzyB" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Also wondering why the rant. Interesting read all the same.
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > ...soapbox warning
> <rant snipped>
> > > ok, I feel better now : )
>
>

[Dave]

Somewhat related, I recently replaced the Fluval 204 on my heavily planted
tank, and replaced it with an Eheim internal Aquaball. I gradually removed
the media from the Fluval over a period of weeks, after having added the
Aquaball. Quite a reduction in media surface, and I doubt the Aquaball was
in there long enough to build up a large bacteria colony, but no indication
of ammonia, nitrites or nitrates during or after. I'll keep the Aquaball in
there but have heard of people with heavily planted tanks having only a
powerhead to move water (below the surface).

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Fish that need filters
>From: "NetMax"
>Date: 6/9/2004 12:47 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Why? The post from TYNK7 about Faith (Bettatalk) triggered it, but I get
>this all the time at work, "what fish doesn't need a filter?". I just
>needed to vent.
>--
>www.NetMax.tk

Sorry that I gave ya a need for venting,
However,for the most part the common hobbyist, one that doesn't quite
understand it all, may take the comments made by Faith from Bettatalk, the very
one that I commented on that started this topic, and think it's fine to house
one or more Goldfish in a small tank without filtration, some plastic plants
and think they're going to live a long healthy life.
Of course advanced, or any hobbyists that have done the research on what is
required in order to keep any fish without filtration, and in kept healthy,
will be able to succeed.
Simply tossing out that a fish doesn't require filtration is simply not enough
information.
On any day, I talk to many people about fish / tank related issues, and barely
any know what they're doing. Even less have ever researched about keeping a
healthy tank, or the requirements of the types of fish they have.
Of course it's possible to keep healthy fish without filtration, but for the
most part, people just don't know how to do it. They're not going to research
how. They're just going to kill a lot of fish, especially Goldfish.
The folks that are going to research how, or that are already advanced enough
to know better should be able to understand why I have a problem with simply
saying that a Goldfish can live fine in a 10g without filtration, or that no
fish really needs filtration-without any explanation on how to do it, is not a
good thing.
Is it wrong to try and save people from themselves? I don't think so, and that
is why I said what I did.

[NetMax]

"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Fish that need filters
> >From: "NetMax"
> >Date: 6/9/2004 12:47 PM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >Why? The post from TYNK7 about Faith (Bettatalk) triggered it, but I
get
> >this all the time at work, "what fish doesn't need a filter?". I just
> >needed to vent.
> >--
> >www.NetMax.tk
>
> Sorry that I gave ya a need for venting,
> However,for the most part the common hobbyist, one that doesn't quite
> understand it all, may take the comments made by Faith from Bettatalk,
the very
> one that I commented on that started this topic, and think it's fine to
house
> one or more Goldfish in a small tank without filtration, some plastic
plants
> and think they're going to live a long healthy life.
> Of course advanced, or any hobbyists that have done the research on
what is
> required in order to keep any fish without filtration, and in kept
healthy,
> will be able to succeed.
> Simply tossing out that a fish doesn't require filtration is simply not
enough
> information.
> On any day, I talk to many people about fish / tank related issues, and
barely
> any know what they're doing. Even less have ever researched about
keeping a
> healthy tank, or the requirements of the types of fish they have.
> Of course it's possible to keep healthy fish without filtration, but
for the
> most part, people just don't know how to do it. They're not going to
research
> how. They're just going to kill a lot of fish, especially Goldfish.
> The folks that are going to research how, or that are already advanced
enough
> to know better should be able to understand why I have a problem with
simply
> saying that a Goldfish can live fine in a 10g without filtration, or
that no
> fish really needs filtration-without any explanation on how to do it,
is not a
> good thing.
> Is it wrong to try and save people from themselves? I don't think so,
and that
> is why I said what I did.

No apology needed.
I'm in complete agreement with you.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[TYNK 7]

>Subject: Re: Fish that need filters
>From: "NetMax"
>Date: 6/16/2004 7:15 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"TYNK 7" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Fish that need filters
>> >From: "NetMax"
>> >Date: 6/9/2004 12:47 PM Central Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >Why? The post from TYNK7 about Faith (Bettatalk) triggered it, but I
>get
>> >this all the time at work, "what fish doesn't need a filter?". I just
>> >needed to vent.
>> >--
>> >www.NetMax.tk
>>
>> Sorry that I gave ya a need for venting,
>> However,for the most part the common hobbyist, one that doesn't quite
>> understand it all, may take the comments made by Faith from Bettatalk,
>the very
>> one that I commented on that started this topic, and think it's fine to
>house
>> one or more Goldfish in a small tank without filtration, some plastic
>plants
>> and think they're going to live a long healthy life.
>> Of course advanced, or any hobbyists that have done the research on
>what is
>> required in order to keep any fish without filtration, and in kept
>healthy,
>> will be able to succeed.
>> Simply tossing out that a fish doesn't require filtration is simply not
>enough
>> information.
>> On any day, I talk to many people about fish / tank related issues, and
>barely
>> any know what they're doing. Even less have ever researched about
>keeping a
>> healthy tank, or the requirements of the types of fish they have.
>> Of course it's possible to keep healthy fish without filtration, but
>for the
>> most part, people just don't know how to do it. They're not going to
>research
>> how. They're just going to kill a lot of fish, especially Goldfish.
>> The folks that are going to research how, or that are already advanced
>enough
>> to know better should be able to understand why I have a problem with
>simply
>> saying that a Goldfish can live fine in a 10g without filtration, or
>that no
>> fish really needs filtration-without any explanation on how to do it,
>is not a
>> good thing.
>> Is it wrong to try and save people from themselves? I don't think so,
>and that
>> is why I said what I did.
>
>No apology needed.
>I'm in complete agreement with you.

Oh, cool. = )