Sick Aqarium - Any Ideas Why?

[KC]

Hello All

I'm hoping someone of you can help me diagnose what is wrong with my
aquarium: Tank has been set-up for about 10 months.

Set-up
20 gallon (long) tank
Aquaclear 150 Power Filter
Visi-Therm 100 Watt Heater
Constant aeration via a 15" bubble wall
Gravel Bottom
Planted with Valisneria and Hornwort



Residents:
6 Sunset Platys
4 Panda Cory Cats (adults)
3 Neon Tetras
3 adult Mollies and 4 juveniles
Some snails

Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite levels all very low (measured after a partial
water change)

What has been happening:
About three weeks ago:
A previous hornwort plant started turning brown and dropping it's needles. I
replaced the aquarium lamp with a full spectrum lamp and bought a new plant.
The plant was soaked in a solution of Clear Water by Jungle (potassium
permanganate) Around the same time I found a tetra dead in the tank, thought
it might be old age.

Thought that the hornwort might have been overheated, so I reduced the water
temperature from 80 degrees to around 75 to 77 degrees.

Last 48 hours
More dead fish. Today the fish are either "resting" in the floating Hornwort
plant or sitting on the bottom and at times swimming fast from one corner of
the aquarium to the other.

I did a 20% water change last night . Changed the carbon filter sac on the
filter. Noticed one young molly acting very sluggish, barely could stay
upright. This morning the larger Mollies are keeping their noses in the
bubble wall.

Any ideas or suggestions as to what might be happening and how to correct it
would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your help

[NetMax]

"KC" > wrote in message
...
> Hello All
>
> I'm hoping someone of you can help me diagnose what is wrong with my
> aquarium: Tank has been set-up for about 10 months.
>
> Set-up
> 20 gallon (long) tank
> Aquaclear 150 Power Filter
> Visi-Therm 100 Watt Heater
> Constant aeration via a 15" bubble wall
> Gravel Bottom
> Planted with Valisneria and Hornwort
>
>
>
> Residents:
> 6 Sunset Platys
> 4 Panda Cory Cats (adults)
> 3 Neon Tetras
> 3 adult Mollies and 4 juveniles
> Some snails
>
> Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite levels all very low (measured after a partial
> water change)

These measurements should be done before a water change. Between the
nature of these elements and the sensitivity of the test kits, you should
only be able to detect nitrates. Ammonia and nitrites will be in such
low concentrations and in the water for such a short time than any
measurement of these in a mature tank is usually indicative of some
imbalance. A biological imbalance is usually the result of improper
filter maintenance, but can also occur from OTS (old tank syndrome) and
other maintenance related issues.

For filter maintenance, run 2 sponges in your AC150. When servicing,
only remove and clean the bottom sponge (in a container of tank water
ideally). Then move the top sponge into the lower position (without
cleaning) and place the cleaned sponge in the top position (so you
reverse their position and only ever service one at a time). I think
this will address your ammonia and nitrite levels.

Please measure your pH and let us know what your nitrate numbers are.
Low pH (with soft water) or very high NO3 (in hard water) are both
indicative of old tank syndrome.

> What has been happening:
> About three weeks ago:
> A previous hornwort plant started turning brown and dropping it's
needles. I
> replaced the aquarium lamp with a full spectrum lamp and bought a new
plant.
> The plant was soaked in a solution of Clear Water by Jungle (potassium
> permanganate) Around the same time I found a tetra dead in the tank,
thought
> it might be old age.
>
> Thought that the hornwort might have been overheated, so I reduced the
water
> temperature from 80 degrees to around 75 to 77 degrees.

I keep Hornwort in various temperatures, so there is no clue there.
Having a plant expire is not neccesarily a problem for the fish, only
that some growth constraint has occured significant enough for the plant
to have consumed its reserves and now died.

> Last 48 hours
> More dead fish. Today the fish are either "resting" in the floating
Hornwort
> plant or sitting on the bottom and at times swimming fast from one
corner of
> the aquarium to the other.

Listless behaviour and darting are both often indicative of water quality
issues.

> I did a 20% water change last night . Changed the carbon filter sac on
the
> filter. Noticed one young molly acting very sluggish, barely could stay
> upright. This morning the larger Mollies are keeping their noses in
the
> bubble wall.

I would start with the basics (pH), gravel vacuum, do significant water
changes and put in fresh carbon. Note that if you find that the pH has
crashed (it's much lower than your tap pH, or typically in the 6s or
lower), then there is a risk in doing too large a water change (shock).
Too fast is stressful and leaving them in acidic water is also stressful,
so it requires some discretion. Under these conditions, doing smaller
water changes frequently works better (ie: 20% twice a day). When
correcting a pH crash, some care must be taken regarding your ammonia
levels, to keep them from becoming more toxic (but you indicated your
ammonia was low). In low pH ammonia is non-toxic NH4 but in high pH, it
converts to toxic NH3, so raising pH with NH4 in the water requires a bit
more caution. More details here as needed
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml

If the pH is close to your tap numbers and normal for your tank, then
your vectors are poisons or diseases. Poisons can enter the water
through the air (ie: industrial solvents, paints, roofing tar fumes can
be quite toxic to fish) or through an introduced substance (ie: new
rocks, unsafe plastics, municipality boosting chlorine usage during
construction etc). Disease vectors are usually through an aquatic
introduction (did you add a new fish, plant, snail etc sometime before
your problem started). Here the routine is to identify whether it is
parasitic or bacterial in nature, as most medications are divided along
those 2 lines. Some fish might be carriers (ie: piscine TB can lie
dormant for years) and some diseases can spread by ingestion (when others
eat the dead diseased fish), so there are many variations to how diseases
can be introduced and transmitted.

If your tank parameters are good and you are confident of your water
supply, then massive water changes can sometimes be helpful. I've done
this when there was a non-specific disease moving rapidly through a tank
killing the fish. I started with daily 50% and went up to daily 90%
changes. The principle is that if it's contagious, it's in the water, so
a w/c will dilute the concentration. By lowering the concentration, you
give the fish's immune system more time to counteract the disease. As
soon as you can identify the disease, then you adjust your water changes
accordingly (typically to every 48 hours after medicinal dosage).

Another solution for non-specific diseases is to move the fish into a
different aquarium (typically a hospital tank, no substrate etc). I
can't tell you how many times this has worked for me, and without any
medications sometimes. Contagions get established into filters or the
substrate and resist irradication, so misc. symptoms persist, and with
small tetras the syptoms are usually random deaths. Moving the fish gets
them out of the higher concentration bombardment of whatever the
contagion was. Then you decide how well you want to clean the main tank
before re-introducing the fish. I hate fish diseases. Hope something in
all that helps you out. Check out my links page for web sites which are
specific to disease identification and cures.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Any ideas or suggestions as to what might be happening and how to
correct it
> would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help
>
>

[KC]

Thanks for the help. I will get a PH tester and report back.



"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "KC" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hello All
> >
> > I'm hoping someone of you can help me diagnose what is wrong with my
> > aquarium: Tank has been set-up for about 10 months.
> >
> > Set-up
> > 20 gallon (long) tank
> > Aquaclear 150 Power Filter
> > Visi-Therm 100 Watt Heater
> > Constant aeration via a 15" bubble wall
> > Gravel Bottom
> > Planted with Valisneria and Hornwort
> >
> >
> >
> > Residents:
> > 6 Sunset Platys
> > 4 Panda Cory Cats (adults)
> > 3 Neon Tetras
> > 3 adult Mollies and 4 juveniles
> > Some snails
> >
> > Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite levels all very low (measured after a partial
> > water change)
>
> These measurements should be done before a water change. Between the
> nature of these elements and the sensitivity of the test kits, you should
> only be able to detect nitrates. Ammonia and nitrites will be in such
> low concentrations and in the water for such a short time than any
> measurement of these in a mature tank is usually indicative of some
> imbalance. A biological imbalance is usually the result of improper
> filter maintenance, but can also occur from OTS (old tank syndrome) and
> other maintenance related issues.
>
> For filter maintenance, run 2 sponges in your AC150. When servicing,
> only remove and clean the bottom sponge (in a container of tank water
> ideally). Then move the top sponge into the lower position (without
> cleaning) and place the cleaned sponge in the top position (so you
> reverse their position and only ever service one at a time). I think
> this will address your ammonia and nitrite levels.
>
> Please measure your pH and let us know what your nitrate numbers are.
> Low pH (with soft water) or very high NO3 (in hard water) are both
> indicative of old tank syndrome.
>
> > What has been happening:
> > About three weeks ago:
> > A previous hornwort plant started turning brown and dropping it's
> needles. I
> > replaced the aquarium lamp with a full spectrum lamp and bought a new
> plant.
> > The plant was soaked in a solution of Clear Water by Jungle (potassium
> > permanganate) Around the same time I found a tetra dead in the tank,
> thought
> > it might be old age.
> >
> > Thought that the hornwort might have been overheated, so I reduced the
> water
> > temperature from 80 degrees to around 75 to 77 degrees.
>
> I keep Hornwort in various temperatures, so there is no clue there.
> Having a plant expire is not neccesarily a problem for the fish, only
> that some growth constraint has occured significant enough for the plant
> to have consumed its reserves and now died.
>
> > Last 48 hours
> > More dead fish. Today the fish are either "resting" in the floating
> Hornwort
> > plant or sitting on the bottom and at times swimming fast from one
> corner of
> > the aquarium to the other.
>
> Listless behaviour and darting are both often indicative of water quality
> issues.
>
> > I did a 20% water change last night . Changed the carbon filter sac on
> the
> > filter. Noticed one young molly acting very sluggish, barely could stay
> > upright. This morning the larger Mollies are keeping their noses in
> the
> > bubble wall.
>
> I would start with the basics (pH), gravel vacuum, do significant water
> changes and put in fresh carbon. Note that if you find that the pH has
> crashed (it's much lower than your tap pH, or typically in the 6s or
> lower), then there is a risk in doing too large a water change (shock).
> Too fast is stressful and leaving them in acidic water is also stressful,
> so it requires some discretion. Under these conditions, doing smaller
> water changes frequently works better (ie: 20% twice a day). When
> correcting a pH crash, some care must be taken regarding your ammonia
> levels, to keep them from becoming more toxic (but you indicated your
> ammonia was low). In low pH ammonia is non-toxic NH4 but in high pH, it
> converts to toxic NH3, so raising pH with NH4 in the water requires a bit
> more caution. More details here as needed
> http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml
>
> If the pH is close to your tap numbers and normal for your tank, then
> your vectors are poisons or diseases. Poisons can enter the water
> through the air (ie: industrial solvents, paints, roofing tar fumes can
> be quite toxic to fish) or through an introduced substance (ie: new
> rocks, unsafe plastics, municipality boosting chlorine usage during
> construction etc). Disease vectors are usually through an aquatic
> introduction (did you add a new fish, plant, snail etc sometime before
> your problem started). Here the routine is to identify whether it is
> parasitic or bacterial in nature, as most medications are divided along
> those 2 lines. Some fish might be carriers (ie: piscine TB can lie
> dormant for years) and some diseases can spread by ingestion (when others
> eat the dead diseased fish), so there are many variations to how diseases
> can be introduced and transmitted.
>
> If your tank parameters are good and you are confident of your water
> supply, then massive water changes can sometimes be helpful. I've done
> this when there was a non-specific disease moving rapidly through a tank
> killing the fish. I started with daily 50% and went up to daily 90%
> changes. The principle is that if it's contagious, it's in the water, so
> a w/c will dilute the concentration. By lowering the concentration, you
> give the fish's immune system more time to counteract the disease. As
> soon as you can identify the disease, then you adjust your water changes
> accordingly (typically to every 48 hours after medicinal dosage).
>
> Another solution for non-specific diseases is to move the fish into a
> different aquarium (typically a hospital tank, no substrate etc). I
> can't tell you how many times this has worked for me, and without any
> medications sometimes. Contagions get established into filters or the
> substrate and resist irradication, so misc. symptoms persist, and with
> small tetras the syptoms are usually random deaths. Moving the fish gets
> them out of the higher concentration bombardment of whatever the
> contagion was. Then you decide how well you want to clean the main tank
> before re-introducing the fish. I hate fish diseases. Hope something in
> all that helps you out. Check out my links page for web sites which are
> specific to disease identification and cures.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
> > Any ideas or suggestions as to what might be happening and how to
> correct it
> > would be appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for your help
> >
> >
>
>

[KC]

I took a water sample and a couple of the sick fish to the local fish store.
They diagnosed the problem as something called "Ich". They sold me a bottle
of "Ich Cure" and recommended that I add one drop per gallon of water each
day for the next 5 days. They also suggested partial water changes every
other day.



"KC" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for the help. I will get a PH tester and report back.
>
>
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "KC" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Hello All
> > >
> > > I'm hoping someone of you can help me diagnose what is wrong with my
> > > aquarium: Tank has been set-up for about 10 months.
> > >
> > > Set-up
> > > 20 gallon (long) tank
> > > Aquaclear 150 Power Filter
> > > Visi-Therm 100 Watt Heater
> > > Constant aeration via a 15" bubble wall
> > > Gravel Bottom
> > > Planted with Valisneria and Hornwort
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Residents:
> > > 6 Sunset Platys
> > > 4 Panda Cory Cats (adults)
> > > 3 Neon Tetras
> > > 3 adult Mollies and 4 juveniles
> > > Some snails
> > >
> > > Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite levels all very low (measured after a
partial
> > > water change)
> >
> > These measurements should be done before a water change. Between the
> > nature of these elements and the sensitivity of the test kits, you
should
> > only be able to detect nitrates. Ammonia and nitrites will be in such
> > low concentrations and in the water for such a short time than any
> > measurement of these in a mature tank is usually indicative of some
> > imbalance. A biological imbalance is usually the result of improper
> > filter maintenance, but can also occur from OTS (old tank syndrome) and
> > other maintenance related issues.
> >
> > For filter maintenance, run 2 sponges in your AC150. When servicing,
> > only remove and clean the bottom sponge (in a container of tank water
> > ideally). Then move the top sponge into the lower position (without
> > cleaning) and place the cleaned sponge in the top position (so you
> > reverse their position and only ever service one at a time). I think
> > this will address your ammonia and nitrite levels.
> >
> > Please measure your pH and let us know what your nitrate numbers are.
> > Low pH (with soft water) or very high NO3 (in hard water) are both
> > indicative of old tank syndrome.
> >
> > > What has been happening:
> > > About three weeks ago:
> > > A previous hornwort plant started turning brown and dropping it's
> > needles. I
> > > replaced the aquarium lamp with a full spectrum lamp and bought a new
> > plant.
> > > The plant was soaked in a solution of Clear Water by Jungle
(potassium
> > > permanganate) Around the same time I found a tetra dead in the tank,
> > thought
> > > it might be old age.
> > >
> > > Thought that the hornwort might have been overheated, so I reduced the
> > water
> > > temperature from 80 degrees to around 75 to 77 degrees.
> >
> > I keep Hornwort in various temperatures, so there is no clue there.
> > Having a plant expire is not neccesarily a problem for the fish, only
> > that some growth constraint has occured significant enough for the plant
> > to have consumed its reserves and now died.
> >
> > > Last 48 hours
> > > More dead fish. Today the fish are either "resting" in the floating
> > Hornwort
> > > plant or sitting on the bottom and at times swimming fast from one
> > corner of
> > > the aquarium to the other.
> >
> > Listless behaviour and darting are both often indicative of water
quality
> > issues.
> >
> > > I did a 20% water change last night . Changed the carbon filter sac on
> > the
> > > filter. Noticed one young molly acting very sluggish, barely could
stay
> > > upright. This morning the larger Mollies are keeping their noses in
> > the
> > > bubble wall.
> >
> > I would start with the basics (pH), gravel vacuum, do significant water
> > changes and put in fresh carbon. Note that if you find that the pH has
> > crashed (it's much lower than your tap pH, or typically in the 6s or
> > lower), then there is a risk in doing too large a water change (shock).
> > Too fast is stressful and leaving them in acidic water is also
stressful,
> > so it requires some discretion. Under these conditions, doing smaller
> > water changes frequently works better (ie: 20% twice a day). When
> > correcting a pH crash, some care must be taken regarding your ammonia
> > levels, to keep them from becoming more toxic (but you indicated your
> > ammonia was low). In low pH ammonia is non-toxic NH4 but in high pH, it
> > converts to toxic NH3, so raising pH with NH4 in the water requires a
bit
> > more caution. More details here as needed
> > http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml
> >
> > If the pH is close to your tap numbers and normal for your tank, then
> > your vectors are poisons or diseases. Poisons can enter the water
> > through the air (ie: industrial solvents, paints, roofing tar fumes can
> > be quite toxic to fish) or through an introduced substance (ie: new
> > rocks, unsafe plastics, municipality boosting chlorine usage during
> > construction etc). Disease vectors are usually through an aquatic
> > introduction (did you add a new fish, plant, snail etc sometime before
> > your problem started). Here the routine is to identify whether it is
> > parasitic or bacterial in nature, as most medications are divided along
> > those 2 lines. Some fish might be carriers (ie: piscine TB can lie
> > dormant for years) and some diseases can spread by ingestion (when
others
> > eat the dead diseased fish), so there are many variations to how
diseases
> > can be introduced and transmitted.
> >
> > If your tank parameters are good and you are confident of your water
> > supply, then massive water changes can sometimes be helpful. I've done
> > this when there was a non-specific disease moving rapidly through a tank
> > killing the fish. I started with daily 50% and went up to daily 90%
> > changes. The principle is that if it's contagious, it's in the water,
so
> > a w/c will dilute the concentration. By lowering the concentration, you
> > give the fish's immune system more time to counteract the disease. As
> > soon as you can identify the disease, then you adjust your water changes
> > accordingly (typically to every 48 hours after medicinal dosage).
> >
> > Another solution for non-specific diseases is to move the fish into a
> > different aquarium (typically a hospital tank, no substrate etc). I
> > can't tell you how many times this has worked for me, and without any
> > medications sometimes. Contagions get established into filters or the
> > substrate and resist irradication, so misc. symptoms persist, and with
> > small tetras the syptoms are usually random deaths. Moving the fish
gets
> > them out of the higher concentration bombardment of whatever the
> > contagion was. Then you decide how well you want to clean the main tank
> > before re-introducing the fish. I hate fish diseases. Hope something
in
> > all that helps you out. Check out my links page for web sites which are
> > specific to disease identification and cures.
> > --
> > www.NetMax.tk
> >
> > > Any ideas or suggestions as to what might be happening and how to
> > correct it
> > > would be appreciated.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance for your help
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Dick]

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:13:07 GMT, "KC" > wrote:

>Hello All
>
>I'm hoping someone of you can help me diagnose what is wrong with my
>aquarium: Tank has been set-up for about 10 months.

Ten months and no problems? To me this is the most important clue you
have listed. For 10 months all was well. To me this suggests your
tank maintenance was fine during that time.
>
>Set-up
>20 gallon (long) tank
>Aquaclear 150 Power Filter
>Visi-Therm 100 Watt Heater
>Constant aeration via a 15" bubble wall
>Gravel Bottom
>Planted with Valisneria and Hornwort

Light wattage?

>
>
>
>Residents:
>6 Sunset Platys
>4 Panda Cory Cats (adults)
>3 Neon Tetras
>3 adult Mollies and 4 juveniles
>Some snails
>
>Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite levels all very low (measured after a partial
>water change)
>
>What has been happening:
>About three weeks ago:
>A previous hornwort plant started turning brown and dropping it's needles. I
>replaced the aquarium lamp with a full spectrum lamp and bought a new plant.
>The plant was soaked in a solution of Clear Water by Jungle (potassium
>permanganate) Around the same time I found a tetra dead in the tank, thought
>it might be old age.
>
The plant and its solution are the prime suspects so far.
Are the plant and light the only changes you made prior to fish
deaths? Did the Neon show any signs of poor health or just showed up
dead? Any marks on the body such as fin nips? Are the snails ok?

>Thought that the hornwort might have been overheated, so I reduced the water
>temperature from 80 degrees to around 75 to 77 degrees.

I have no experience with hornwort so I am surprised you related water
temperature to its condition. I have had lots of plants die that
needed more light than my tank had. I would never think that a plant
couldn't survive what the fish could.
>
>Last 48 hours
>More dead fish.

Since you have been supplying a lot of detail, I am left wondering
about the lack of detail regarding the dead fish: What species? How
many of each specis? Any common symptoms. Any advanced changes?
One of the newsgroup regulars once suggested some fish had died at the
same time because they were the same age and just natural causes.

> Today the fish are either "resting" in the floating Hornwort
>plant or sitting on the bottom and at times swimming fast from one corner of
>the aquarium to the other.
>
>I did a 20% water change last night . Changed the carbon filter sac on the
>filter. Noticed one young molly acting very sluggish, barely could stay
>upright. This morning the larger Mollies are keeping their noses in the
>bubble wall.

Another possible clue, you indicated you did a 20% water change in a
way that suggests this was not a routine thing to do. How often and
how much water do you routinely change?

>
>Any ideas or suggestions as to what might be happening and how to correct it
>would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks in advance for your help
>

I hope I am not irritating with my questions. I have been told I
grill people by friends. Apparently it is not a comfortable
experience. I think of questions and ask. Your answers may trigger
useful thoughts for you, me and other readers. The solutions are
often in the details.

dick

[Dick]

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 01:21:06 GMT, "KC" > wrote:

>I took a water sample and a couple of the sick fish to the local fish store.
>They diagnosed the problem as something called "Ich". They sold me a bottle
>of "Ich Cure" and recommended that I add one drop per gallon of water each
>day for the next 5 days. They also suggested partial water changes every
>other day.
>
You did not indicate any white spots on your fish. The spots are the
classic symptom.

Good luck.

>
>
>"KC" > wrote in message
...
>> Thanks for the help. I will get a PH tester and report back.
>>
>>
>>
>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > "KC" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > > Hello All
>> > >
>> > > I'm hoping someone of you can help me diagnose what is wrong with my
>> > > aquarium: Tank has been set-up for about 10 months.
>> > >
>> > > Set-up
>> > > 20 gallon (long) tank
>> > > Aquaclear 150 Power Filter
>> > > Visi-Therm 100 Watt Heater
>> > > Constant aeration via a 15" bubble wall
>> > > Gravel Bottom
>> > > Planted with Valisneria and Hornwort
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Residents:
>> > > 6 Sunset Platys
>> > > 4 Panda Cory Cats (adults)
>> > > 3 Neon Tetras
>> > > 3 adult Mollies and 4 juveniles
>> > > Some snails
>> > >
>> > > Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite levels all very low (measured after a
>partial
>> > > water change)
>> >
>> > These measurements should be done before a water change. Between the
>> > nature of these elements and the sensitivity of the test kits, you
>should
>> > only be able to detect nitrates. Ammonia and nitrites will be in such
>> > low concentrations and in the water for such a short time than any
>> > measurement of these in a mature tank is usually indicative of some
>> > imbalance. A biological imbalance is usually the result of improper
>> > filter maintenance, but can also occur from OTS (old tank syndrome) and
>> > other maintenance related issues.
>> >
>> > For filter maintenance, run 2 sponges in your AC150. When servicing,
>> > only remove and clean the bottom sponge (in a container of tank water
>> > ideally). Then move the top sponge into the lower position (without
>> > cleaning) and place the cleaned sponge in the top position (so you
>> > reverse their position and only ever service one at a time). I think
>> > this will address your ammonia and nitrite levels.
>> >
>> > Please measure your pH and let us know what your nitrate numbers are.
>> > Low pH (with soft water) or very high NO3 (in hard water) are both
>> > indicative of old tank syndrome.
>> >
>> > > What has been happening:
>> > > About three weeks ago:
>> > > A previous hornwort plant started turning brown and dropping it's
>> > needles. I
>> > > replaced the aquarium lamp with a full spectrum lamp and bought a new
>> > plant.
>> > > The plant was soaked in a solution of Clear Water by Jungle
>(potassium
>> > > permanganate) Around the same time I found a tetra dead in the tank,
>> > thought
>> > > it might be old age.
>> > >
>> > > Thought that the hornwort might have been overheated, so I reduced the
>> > water
>> > > temperature from 80 degrees to around 75 to 77 degrees.
>> >
>> > I keep Hornwort in various temperatures, so there is no clue there.
>> > Having a plant expire is not neccesarily a problem for the fish, only
>> > that some growth constraint has occured significant enough for the plant
>> > to have consumed its reserves and now died.
>> >
>> > > Last 48 hours
>> > > More dead fish. Today the fish are either "resting" in the floating
>> > Hornwort
>> > > plant or sitting on the bottom and at times swimming fast from one
>> > corner of
>> > > the aquarium to the other.
>> >
>> > Listless behaviour and darting are both often indicative of water
>quality
>> > issues.
>> >
>> > > I did a 20% water change last night . Changed the carbon filter sac on
>> > the
>> > > filter. Noticed one young molly acting very sluggish, barely could
>stay
>> > > upright. This morning the larger Mollies are keeping their noses in
>> > the
>> > > bubble wall.
>> >
>> > I would start with the basics (pH), gravel vacuum, do significant water
>> > changes and put in fresh carbon. Note that if you find that the pH has
>> > crashed (it's much lower than your tap pH, or typically in the 6s or
>> > lower), then there is a risk in doing too large a water change (shock).
>> > Too fast is stressful and leaving them in acidic water is also
>stressful,
>> > so it requires some discretion. Under these conditions, doing smaller
>> > water changes frequently works better (ie: 20% twice a day). When
>> > correcting a pH crash, some care must be taken regarding your ammonia
>> > levels, to keep them from becoming more toxic (but you indicated your
>> > ammonia was low). In low pH ammonia is non-toxic NH4 but in high pH, it
>> > converts to toxic NH3, so raising pH with NH4 in the water requires a
>bit
>> > more caution. More details here as needed
>> > http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml
>> >
>> > If the pH is close to your tap numbers and normal for your tank, then
>> > your vectors are poisons or diseases. Poisons can enter the water
>> > through the air (ie: industrial solvents, paints, roofing tar fumes can
>> > be quite toxic to fish) or through an introduced substance (ie: new
>> > rocks, unsafe plastics, municipality boosting chlorine usage during
>> > construction etc). Disease vectors are usually through an aquatic
>> > introduction (did you add a new fish, plant, snail etc sometime before
>> > your problem started). Here the routine is to identify whether it is
>> > parasitic or bacterial in nature, as most medications are divided along
>> > those 2 lines. Some fish might be carriers (ie: piscine TB can lie
>> > dormant for years) and some diseases can spread by ingestion (when
>others
>> > eat the dead diseased fish), so there are many variations to how
>diseases
>> > can be introduced and transmitted.
>> >
>> > If your tank parameters are good and you are confident of your water
>> > supply, then massive water changes can sometimes be helpful. I've done
>> > this when there was a non-specific disease moving rapidly through a tank
>> > killing the fish. I started with daily 50% and went up to daily 90%
>> > changes. The principle is that if it's contagious, it's in the water,
>so
>> > a w/c will dilute the concentration. By lowering the concentration, you
>> > give the fish's immune system more time to counteract the disease. As
>> > soon as you can identify the disease, then you adjust your water changes
>> > accordingly (typically to every 48 hours after medicinal dosage).
>> >
>> > Another solution for non-specific diseases is to move the fish into a
>> > different aquarium (typically a hospital tank, no substrate etc). I
>> > can't tell you how many times this has worked for me, and without any
>> > medications sometimes. Contagions get established into filters or the
>> > substrate and resist irradication, so misc. symptoms persist, and with
>> > small tetras the syptoms are usually random deaths. Moving the fish
>gets
>> > them out of the higher concentration bombardment of whatever the
>> > contagion was. Then you decide how well you want to clean the main tank
>> > before re-introducing the fish. I hate fish diseases. Hope something
>in
>> > all that helps you out. Check out my links page for web sites which are
>> > specific to disease identification and cures.
>> > --
>> > www.NetMax.tk
>> >
>> > > Any ideas or suggestions as to what might be happening and how to
>> > correct it
>> > > would be appreciated.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks in advance for your help
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>

[KC]

Is a 5 day treatment with the malachite green hydrochloride as the fish
store associate directed sufficient to properly treat this problem? Web
searches on Ich resulted in more than a couple of articles that directed
much longer treatment times of 14 to 30 days to properly treat Ich..

Because of travel, I won't be able to treat for 14 consecutive days. I
wonder if I will be putting any remaining fish through an agonizing death
during the time I am away.


"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:13:07 GMT, "KC" > wrote:
>
> >Hello All
> >
> >I'm hoping someone of you can help me diagnose what is wrong with my
> >aquarium: Tank has been set-up for about 10 months.
>
> Ten months and no problems? To me this is the most important clue you
> have listed. For 10 months all was well. To me this suggests your
> tank maintenance was fine during that time.
> >
> >Set-up
> >20 gallon (long) tank
> >Aquaclear 150 Power Filter
> >Visi-Therm 100 Watt Heater
> >Constant aeration via a 15" bubble wall
> >Gravel Bottom
> >Planted with Valisneria and Hornwort
>
> Light wattage?
>
> >
> >
> >
> >Residents:
> >6 Sunset Platys
> >4 Panda Cory Cats (adults)
> >3 Neon Tetras
> >3 adult Mollies and 4 juveniles
> >Some snails
> >
> >Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite levels all very low (measured after a partial
> >water change)
> >
> >What has been happening:
> >About three weeks ago:
> >A previous hornwort plant started turning brown and dropping it's
needles. I
> >replaced the aquarium lamp with a full spectrum lamp and bought a new
plant.
> >The plant was soaked in a solution of Clear Water by Jungle (potassium
> >permanganate) Around the same time I found a tetra dead in the tank,
thought
> >it might be old age.
> >
> The plant and its solution are the prime suspects so far.
> Are the plant and light the only changes you made prior to fish
> deaths? Did the Neon show any signs of poor health or just showed up
> dead? Any marks on the body such as fin nips? Are the snails ok?
>
> >Thought that the hornwort might have been overheated, so I reduced the
water
> >temperature from 80 degrees to around 75 to 77 degrees.
>
> I have no experience with hornwort so I am surprised you related water
> temperature to its condition. I have had lots of plants die that
> needed more light than my tank had. I would never think that a plant
> couldn't survive what the fish could.
> >
> >Last 48 hours
> >More dead fish.
>
> Since you have been supplying a lot of detail, I am left wondering
> about the lack of detail regarding the dead fish: What species? How
> many of each specis? Any common symptoms. Any advanced changes?
> One of the newsgroup regulars once suggested some fish had died at the
> same time because they were the same age and just natural causes.
>
> > Today the fish are either "resting" in the floating Hornwort
> >plant or sitting on the bottom and at times swimming fast from one corner
of
> >the aquarium to the other.
> >
> >I did a 20% water change last night . Changed the carbon filter sac on
the
> >filter. Noticed one young molly acting very sluggish, barely could stay
> >upright. This morning the larger Mollies are keeping their noses in the
> >bubble wall.
>
> Another possible clue, you indicated you did a 20% water change in a
> way that suggests this was not a routine thing to do. How often and
> how much water do you routinely change?
>
> >
> >Any ideas or suggestions as to what might be happening and how to correct
it
> >would be appreciated.
> >
> >Thanks in advance for your help
> >
>
> I hope I am not irritating with my questions. I have been told I
> grill people by friends. Apparently it is not a comfortable
> experience. I think of questions and ask. Your answers may trigger
> useful thoughts for you, me and other readers. The solutions are
> often in the details.
>
> dick

[NetMax]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:13:07 GMT, "KC" > wrote:
>
> >Hello All
> >
> >I'm hoping someone of you can help me diagnose what is wrong with my
> >aquarium: Tank has been set-up for about 10 months.
>
> Ten months and no problems? To me this is the most important clue you
> have listed. For 10 months all was well. To me this suggests your
> tank maintenance was fine during that time.

There are many potential problems & diseases which have no outward signs,
so symptom-based assumptions can be presumptous. As an example, a pH
crash on a tank of tetras might not be obvious, until they start reacting
badly to water changes. Also what we define as symptoms might not be
obvious to everyone. KC might not recognize atypical behavior such as
faster respiration, change in appetite, poor bowel movement, swimming
zone or behaviour changed, coloration changes, mood changes (acting
fearful) as problem signs, though you would (ie: I never heard mention of
white dots).

<snip>
> >A previous hornwort plant started turning brown and dropping it's
needles. I
> >replaced the aquarium lamp with a full spectrum lamp and bought a new
plant.
<snip>
> >Thought that the hornwort might have been overheated, so I reduced the
water
> >temperature from 80 degrees to around 75 to 77 degrees.
>
> I have no experience with hornwort so I am surprised you related water
> temperature to its condition. I have had lots of plants die that
> needed more light than my tank had. I would never think that a plant
> couldn't survive what the fish could.

I've found that the window of health for fish and for plants is not
really comparable. Many plants will die off due to causes which would
have no effect on fish (nutrient constraints, light levels etc). The
variety in plant type's cellular structure makes generalizations
difficult. For example, elevated temperatures will kill many plants,
then later fish, then later other plants. The same applies for reduced
temperatures. I my opinion, it's not practical to try to correlate fish
problems from plant symptoms or vice-versa. In fact, many fish-poor
conditions (ie: high ammonia, nitrites, nitrates) are not plant-poor
conditions at all.

<snip>
> I hope I am not irritating with my questions. I have been told I
> grill people by friends. Apparently it is not a comfortable
> experience. I think of questions and ask. Your answers may trigger
> useful thoughts for you, me and other readers. The solutions are
> often in the details.

That's the way it's done :o) The questions game. We do it to almost
every customer in the store. The hard part is to do it conversationally
(while catching the fish) and not annoy the customer.

> dick

To KC
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/ treat 16 days
http://www.actwin.com/fish/articles/disease/ick2.php treat 12-16 days
http://www.aquarium.net/0197/0197_1.shtml no medicine 4-5 days
http://www.e-aquaria.com/ins_ich.html treat 12-16 days
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/scripts/FA041 treat 6-10 days
http://www.angelfire.com/or2/cichlid102/Disease/diseases.htm#Ich treat
12-16 days
ps: don't assume the LFS is correct. Ich is easily identifiable by small
uniformly sized white dots.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[KC]

NetMax

Thanks for the assistance. I checked the links in your last post and your
site, very informative..

I have a feeling my remaining fish are doomed if the treatment ends after
just 7 days. I'm hoping the 7 days of treatment helps them keep going until
I return.

Question about hospital tanks: I would move the remaining fish into an
unused 10-gallon tank. However - it is not currently set up. Would I be
stressing them even more by putting them in an uncycled tank? Or would this
improve their chances for survival?

I could move them into the 10-gallon tank tonight, but there would still be
the problem that in a few days I will be away and then will be an unwatched
tank that not only has sick fish, but has not been cycled. Any thoughts on
this?

KC.

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Dick" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:13:07 GMT, "KC" > wrote:
> >
> > >Hello All
> > >
> > >I'm hoping someone of you can help me diagnose what is wrong with my
> > >aquarium: Tank has been set-up for about 10 months.
> >
> > Ten months and no problems? To me this is the most important clue you
> > have listed. For 10 months all was well. To me this suggests your
> > tank maintenance was fine during that time.
>
> There are many potential problems & diseases which have no outward signs,
> so symptom-based assumptions can be presumptous. As an example, a pH
> crash on a tank of tetras might not be obvious, until they start reacting
> badly to water changes. Also what we define as symptoms might not be
> obvious to everyone. KC might not recognize atypical behavior such as
> faster respiration, change in appetite, poor bowel movement, swimming
> zone or behaviour changed, coloration changes, mood changes (acting
> fearful) as problem signs, though you would (ie: I never heard mention of
> white dots).
>
> <snip>
> > >A previous hornwort plant started turning brown and dropping it's
> needles. I
> > >replaced the aquarium lamp with a full spectrum lamp and bought a new
> plant.
> <snip>
> > >Thought that the hornwort might have been overheated, so I reduced the
> water
> > >temperature from 80 degrees to around 75 to 77 degrees.
> >
> > I have no experience with hornwort so I am surprised you related water
> > temperature to its condition. I have had lots of plants die that
> > needed more light than my tank had. I would never think that a plant
> > couldn't survive what the fish could.
>
> I've found that the window of health for fish and for plants is not
> really comparable. Many plants will die off due to causes which would
> have no effect on fish (nutrient constraints, light levels etc). The
> variety in plant type's cellular structure makes generalizations
> difficult. For example, elevated temperatures will kill many plants,
> then later fish, then later other plants. The same applies for reduced
> temperatures. I my opinion, it's not practical to try to correlate fish
> problems from plant symptoms or vice-versa. In fact, many fish-poor
> conditions (ie: high ammonia, nitrites, nitrates) are not plant-poor
> conditions at all.
>
> <snip>
> > I hope I am not irritating with my questions. I have been told I
> > grill people by friends. Apparently it is not a comfortable
> > experience. I think of questions and ask. Your answers may trigger
> > useful thoughts for you, me and other readers. The solutions are
> > often in the details.
>
> That's the way it's done :o) The questions game. We do it to almost
> every customer in the store. The hard part is to do it conversationally
> (while catching the fish) and not annoy the customer.
>
> > dick
>
> To KC
> http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/ treat 16 days
> http://www.actwin.com/fish/articles/disease/ick2.php treat 12-16 days
> http://www.aquarium.net/0197/0197_1.shtml no medicine 4-5 days
> http://www.e-aquaria.com/ins_ich.html treat 12-16 days
> http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/scripts/FA041 treat 6-10 days
> http://www.angelfire.com/or2/cichlid102/Disease/diseases.htm#Ich treat
> 12-16 days
> ps: don't assume the LFS is correct. Ich is easily identifiable by small
> uniformly sized white dots.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>

[NetMax]

"KC" > wrote in message
...
> NetMax
>
> Thanks for the assistance. I checked the links in your last post and
your
> site, very informative..
>
> I have a feeling my remaining fish are doomed if the treatment ends
after
> just 7 days. I'm hoping the 7 days of treatment helps them keep going
until
> I return.
>
> Question about hospital tanks: I would move the remaining fish into an
> unused 10-gallon tank. However - it is not currently set up. Would I be
> stressing them even more by putting them in an uncycled tank? Or would
this
> improve their chances for survival?
>
> I could move them into the 10-gallon tank tonight, but there would
still be
> the problem that in a few days I will be away and then will be an
unwatched
> tank that not only has sick fish, but has not been cycled. Any thoughts
on
> this?
>
> KC.


I would resist moving them if you cannot keep the tank from cycling, as
the extra stress would be undesirable. Ich is a nuisance disease,
generally not even fatal if caught early. Healthy fish will often not
even contract the disease, so a stable environment with healthy fish is a
good prevention. Now that they have it, 3 treatments spaced at 48 hours
with water changes just before each treatment should knock the disease
back to where it shouldn't cause trouble *if* they are otherwise healthy
and in good water conditions.

The advantage of moving them prevents the next batch of parasites
hatching from finding a host, but this free-swimming stage is where the
medication kills them anyways, so moving them would mean less disease for
the same medication to kill. In extreme cases, that might make a
difference, but not significantly in normal circumstances.
--
www.NetMax.tk (who denies any medical knowledge regarding fish)
<snip>

[Dick]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 00:18:31 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"KC" > wrote in message
...
>> NetMax
>>
>> Thanks for the assistance. I checked the links in your last post and
>your
>> site, very informative..
>>
>> I have a feeling my remaining fish are doomed if the treatment ends
>after
>> just 7 days. I'm hoping the 7 days of treatment helps them keep going
>until
>> I return.
>>
>> Question about hospital tanks: I would move the remaining fish into an
>> unused 10-gallon tank. However - it is not currently set up. Would I be
>> stressing them even more by putting them in an uncycled tank? Or would
>this
>> improve their chances for survival?
>>
>> I could move them into the 10-gallon tank tonight, but there would
>still be
>> the problem that in a few days I will be away and then will be an
>unwatched
>> tank that not only has sick fish, but has not been cycled. Any thoughts
>on
>> this?
>>
>> KC.
>
>
>I would resist moving them if you cannot keep the tank from cycling, as
>the extra stress would be undesirable. Ich is a nuisance disease,
>generally not even fatal if caught early. Healthy fish will often not
>even contract the disease, so a stable environment with healthy fish is a
>good prevention. Now that they have it, 3 treatments spaced at 48 hours
>with water changes just before each treatment should knock the disease
>back to where it shouldn't cause trouble *if* they are otherwise healthy
>and in good water conditions.
>
>The advantage of moving them prevents the next batch of parasites
>hatching from finding a host, but this free-swimming stage is where the
>medication kills them anyways, so moving them would mean less disease for
>the same medication to kill. In extreme cases, that might make a
>difference, but not significantly in normal circumstances.

Ich has 3 cycles, the white spots on the fish are the one we have to
use. The other two cycles happen in the water and the gravel. Netmax
may have another view, but once fish show the white spots, I
understand it is too late to move those fish with spots as the other
two cycles are probably present. One is really treating the tank for
ich as well as the fish. This is why treatment must continue beyond
the loss of the white spots.

dick

[NetMax]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 00:18:31 -0400, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
> >"KC" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> NetMax
> >>
> >> Thanks for the assistance. I checked the links in your last post and
> >your
> >> site, very informative..
> >>
> >> I have a feeling my remaining fish are doomed if the treatment ends
> >after
> >> just 7 days. I'm hoping the 7 days of treatment helps them keep
going
> >until
> >> I return.
> >>
> >> Question about hospital tanks: I would move the remaining fish into
an
> >> unused 10-gallon tank. However - it is not currently set up. Would I
be
> >> stressing them even more by putting them in an uncycled tank? Or
would
> >this
> >> improve their chances for survival?
> >>
> >> I could move them into the 10-gallon tank tonight, but there would
> >still be
> >> the problem that in a few days I will be away and then will be an
> >unwatched
> >> tank that not only has sick fish, but has not been cycled. Any
thoughts
> >on
> >> this?
> >>
> >> KC.
> >
> >
> >I would resist moving them if you cannot keep the tank from cycling,
as
> >the extra stress would be undesirable. Ich is a nuisance disease,
> >generally not even fatal if caught early. Healthy fish will often not
> >even contract the disease, so a stable environment with healthy fish
is a
> >good prevention. Now that they have it, 3 treatments spaced at 48
hours
> >with water changes just before each treatment should knock the disease
> >back to where it shouldn't cause trouble *if* they are otherwise
healthy
> >and in good water conditions.
> >
> >The advantage of moving them prevents the next batch of parasites
> >hatching from finding a host, but this free-swimming stage is where
the
> >medication kills them anyways, so moving them would mean less disease
for
> >the same medication to kill. In extreme cases, that might make a
> >difference, but not significantly in normal circumstances.
>
> Ich has 3 cycles, the white spots on the fish are the one we have to
> use. The other two cycles happen in the water and the gravel. Netmax
> may have another view, but once fish show the white spots, I
> understand it is too late to move those fish with spots as the other
> two cycles are probably present. One is really treating the tank for
> ich as well as the fish. This is why treatment must continue beyond
> the loss of the white spots.
>
> dick

You are right, and generally that is what you do. I know of two
instances where you can do otherwise. By moving *all* the fish into a
hospital tank, the next emerging batch of Ich will fail to find a host
(which they only have about 48 hours to do). This knocks out one
complete cycle of the parasite that you have to deal with.

The other instance is when a particular fish or fishes are obviously very
susceptible to Ich and are acting as the carriers. Move them into a
hospital, but then continue to treat both tanks. This sometimes lets you
follow a more aggressive treatment in the hospital, and even go to a half
dosage in your main tank (can you tell I have some practice with this
miserable parasite? ;~).

FYI, some people cure Ich with nothing more than some combination of
aggressive water changes (gravel vacuumed), salt and/or increased
temperatures. The W/C's reduce the population, the temperature
accelerates their life stages to get to the gravel or free-swimming stage
and the salt helps the fish with their slime coat. It's not what I do,
but there are different ways to achieve varying degrees of success.
--
www.NetMax.tk