Distilled/RO water?

[Nitesbane]

Hi. I have a 55g planted tank (low light). My tap water isn't exactly
ideal for my community fish or my plants (pH about 8, GH ~250ppm), and I'd
like to use distilled or RO water instead of using peat moss or water
softeners that would change the color of my water. What is a good mix of
tap water to distilled/RO water? And which is better to use (is there
significant difference?) distilled or RO? Thanks a bunch.

[Victor Martinez]

Nitesbane wrote:
> Hi. I have a 55g planted tank (low light). My tap water isn't exactly
> ideal for my community fish or my plants (pH about 8, GH ~250ppm), and I'd

Says who? Plants love hard water and most fish will do just fine in it.

--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[Nitesbane]

"Victor Martinez" > wrote in message
...
> Nitesbane wrote:
> > Hi. I have a 55g planted tank (low light). My tap water isn't exactly
> > ideal for my community fish or my plants (pH about 8, GH ~250ppm), and
I'd
>
> Says who? Plants love hard water and most fish will do just fine in it.
>

http://fish.mongabay.com/chemistry.htm
"Almost all freshwater fish inhabit waters with a pH from 5.0-9.0, with the
majority of these inhabiting water with a slightly acidic to neutral pH
(6-7.5)."

http://www.aquariumpharm.com/articles/plants.asp
"Most aquatic plants require water with a low to moderate hardness level.
The General Hardness (GH) should be between 2-7°dGH. Carbonate Hardness (KH)
should be between 2-6°dKH. Tap water is often high in GH and KH and may
contain excess nutrients such as phosphate and nitrate. If your tap water is
too hard or contains excess nutrients, use Aquarium Pharmaceutical's Tap
Water Filter."

http://fish.orbust.net/neontetra.html
"Care: They like soft slightly acidic water and, ideally the temperature
should be 73 to 79 degrees F"

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/tet-bneo.htm
"Water Chemistry: Not critical, but soft and slightly acidic preferred."

[Victor Martinez]

Nitesbane wrote:
> http://fish.mongabay.com/chemistry.htm
> "Almost all freshwater fish inhabit waters with a pH from 5.0-9.0, with the
> majority of these inhabiting water with a slightly acidic to neutral pH
> (6-7.5)."

And how does this contradict my statement? I said "Plants love hard
water and most fish will do just fine in it".

> http://www.aquariumpharm.com/articles/plants.asp
> "Most aquatic plants require water with a low to moderate hardness level.

This was actually rebuffed by a world renowned plant collector who
showed pictures of so-called soft water plants growing in the wild in
south america on lakes and rivers with limestone beds. Check google for
the references, it was discussed here (or perhaps in r.a.f.plants) a
while ago.

> The General Hardness (GH) should be between 2-7°dGH. Carbonate Hardness (KH)
> should be between 2-6°dKH. Tap water is often high in GH and KH and may
> contain excess nutrients such as phosphate and nitrate. If your tap water is
> too hard or contains excess nutrients, use Aquarium Pharmaceutical's Tap
> Water Filter."

Yeah, buy our stuff. Objective advise?

> http://fish.orbust.net/neontetra.html
> "Care: They like soft slightly acidic water and, ideally the temperature
> should be 73 to 79 degrees F"

Keyword: "like"

> http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/tet-bneo.htm
> "Water Chemistry: Not critical, but soft and slightly acidic preferred."

Keyword: "prefered"


Unless you're planning on breeding some species (ie. discus, tetras),
most fish will do just fine in hard, non acidic water. So will most
plants, btw.

Cheers.


--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[Nitesbane]

"Victor Martinez" > wrote in message
...
> Nitesbane wrote:
> > http://fish.mongabay.com/chemistry.htm
> > "Almost all freshwater fish inhabit waters with a pH from 5.0-9.0, with
the
> > majority of these inhabiting water with a slightly acidic to neutral pH
> > (6-7.5)."
>
> And how does this contradict my statement? I said "Plants love hard
> water and most fish will do just fine in it".
>
> > http://www.aquariumpharm.com/articles/plants.asp
> > "Most aquatic plants require water with a low to moderate hardness
level.
>
> This was actually rebuffed by a world renowned plant collector who
> showed pictures of so-called soft water plants growing in the wild in
> south america on lakes and rivers with limestone beds. Check google for
> the references, it was discussed here (or perhaps in r.a.f.plants) a
> while ago.
>
> > The General Hardness (GH) should be between 2-7°dGH. Carbonate Hardness
(KH)
> > should be between 2-6°dKH. Tap water is often high in GH and KH and may
> > contain excess nutrients such as phosphate and nitrate. If your tap
water is
> > too hard or contains excess nutrients, use Aquarium Pharmaceutical's Tap
> > Water Filter."
>
> Yeah, buy our stuff. Objective advise?
>
> > http://fish.orbust.net/neontetra.html
> > "Care: They like soft slightly acidic water and, ideally the temperature
> > should be 73 to 79 degrees F"
>
> Keyword: "like"
>
> > http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/tet-bneo.htm
> > "Water Chemistry: Not critical, but soft and slightly acidic
preferred."
>
> Keyword: "prefered"
>
>
> Unless you're planning on breeding some species (ie. discus, tetras),
> most fish will do just fine in hard, non acidic water. So will most
> plants, btw.
>

I am planning on breeding my tetras in the near future. Can you answer my
question, or are you just going to argue?

[NetMax]

"Nitesbane" > wrote in message
...
> Hi. I have a 55g planted tank (low light). My tap water isn't exactly
> ideal for my community fish or my plants (pH about 8, GH ~250ppm), and
I'd
> like to use distilled or RO water instead of using peat moss or water
> softeners that would change the color of my water. What is a good mix
of
> tap water to distilled/RO water? And which is better to use (is there
> significant difference?) distilled or RO? Thanks a bunch.


It will depend on which is more readily available. How much do you want
to bring it down? Like the effect on you water, it's a question of
degrees. Plants can be extremely adaptable. I've got Amazon Sword,
Madagascar Lace, a Crypt, some Nymphoides, Java fern, Hornwort and a few
others in well-water which varies from 6 to 35dgH (I allow the tank to go
from 6 to about 24dgH). For reference, you are at 14dgH. My pH is
always 8.4pH. The plant's growth rate & pattern can be significantly
different. For example, I prefer the look of the Lace in hard water, as
the leaves are broad, low and horizontal providing a 'roof' for fry,
whereas the leaves are thinner and vertical in soft water. The Amazon,
Hornwort, Crypts and Nyphoides don't appear to grow any differently (in
shape), but the Nyphoides grows significantly slower, and the Amazon &
Crypt slightly slower (Java fern growth is cm per year). Hornwort is
pruned by the foot. I'd be inclined to leave your water as is if your
changes were only for the plants.

What type of fish do you have? If they are acclimated to your current
conditions, I would also be inclined to leave it alone. Regular water
changes will keep it fresh, and without messing with the chemistry, you
should have no stability issues. If the fish are acclimated to softer
(or harder) water, then you can make a diluted mix to meet them halfway
for a few weeks. I've found that Discus do poorly above 7.7pH (probably
somewhat due to the local conditions they were raised in, so ymmv).
Unless you are planning on breeding, many fish would adapt to 8.0pH. I
have Clown & Yoyo loaches in 8.4pH, and I'm sure they are listed as soft
acidic water fish (Mekong river China I think).

Plant growth will soften your water (removes calcium) and acidifies it as
well (as rotting debris). Many types of driftwood will not tint your
water, but will still slightly soften it. If you are at a low fish load,
lots of plants and some driftwood, you might find that everything settles
in nicely after a few months.

As for the web site's recommendations, I too like California weather, but
I live in Canada ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Victor Martinez]

Nitesbane wrote:
> I am planning on breeding my tetras in the near future. Can you answer my
> question, or are you just going to argue?

You should have started stating that, which you didn't. You just said
your hard water was not good for plants or community fish, which is not
true.

Cheers.

--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[Inspector Clousseau]

Nitesbane wrote:

> I am planning on breeding my tetras in the near future. Can you answer my
> question, or are you just going to argue?

I have carefully studied this question, and concluded that although
tetras are nearly as ornery as people, people are easier to breed.

[luminos]

"Inspector Clousseau" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Nitesbane wrote:
>
> > I am planning on breeding my tetras in the near future. Can you answer
my
> > question, or are you just going to argue?
>
> I have carefully studied this question, and concluded that although
> tetras are nearly as ornery as people, people are easier to breed.
>

Watch out for Kato :)

[Nitesbane]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Nitesbane" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi. I have a 55g planted tank (low light). My tap water isn't exactly
> > ideal for my community fish or my plants (pH about 8, GH ~250ppm), and
> I'd
> > like to use distilled or RO water instead of using peat moss or water
> > softeners that would change the color of my water. What is a good mix
> of
> > tap water to distilled/RO water? And which is better to use (is there
> > significant difference?) distilled or RO? Thanks a bunch.
>
>
> It will depend on which is more readily available. How much do you want
> to bring it down? Like the effect on you water, it's a question of
> degrees. Plants can be extremely adaptable. I've got Amazon Sword,
> Madagascar Lace, a Crypt, some Nymphoides, Java fern, Hornwort and a few
> others in well-water which varies from 6 to 35dgH (I allow the tank to go
> from 6 to about 24dgH). For reference, you are at 14dgH. My pH is
> always 8.4pH. The plant's growth rate & pattern can be significantly
> different. For example, I prefer the look of the Lace in hard water, as
> the leaves are broad, low and horizontal providing a 'roof' for fry,
> whereas the leaves are thinner and vertical in soft water. The Amazon,
> Hornwort, Crypts and Nyphoides don't appear to grow any differently (in
> shape), but the Nyphoides grows significantly slower, and the Amazon &
> Crypt slightly slower (Java fern growth is cm per year). Hornwort is
> pruned by the foot. I'd be inclined to leave your water as is if your
> changes were only for the plants.
>
> What type of fish do you have? If they are acclimated to your current
> conditions, I would also be inclined to leave it alone. Regular water
> changes will keep it fresh, and without messing with the chemistry, you
> should have no stability issues. If the fish are acclimated to softer
> (or harder) water, then you can make a diluted mix to meet them halfway
> for a few weeks. I've found that Discus do poorly above 7.7pH (probably
> somewhat due to the local conditions they were raised in, so ymmv).
> Unless you are planning on breeding, many fish would adapt to 8.0pH. I
> have Clown & Yoyo loaches in 8.4pH, and I'm sure they are listed as soft
> acidic water fish (Mekong river China I think).
>
> Plant growth will soften your water (removes calcium) and acidifies it as
> well (as rotting debris). Many types of driftwood will not tint your
> water, but will still slightly soften it. If you are at a low fish load,
> lots of plants and some driftwood, you might find that everything settles
> in nicely after a few months.

Thanks for the advice. I keep neon and black neon tetras with a few danios.
I have two african dwarf frogs, a panda cory and I just picked up a
freshwater puffer. The danios breed like there's no tomorrow, but I would
really love to be able to bring up some baby tetras. I absolutely adore
them, especially the black neons. I have used a combination of driftwood,
CO2 injection, and a water softener pillow (gives my water a yellow tint) to
bring my GH down to 9 from 15 and my pH down to 7.2-7.5. I'd just like (for
now) to make everything neutral and see how the fish like it. Average gh,
kh, and ph.
I didn't know that plant growth would soften the water. I had a 10 gallon
tank for about a month, then dumped everything into a 55. It's been 3 weeks
since everything went into the 55 gallon. Right now the tank is lightly
planted, but I'm waiting on a plant order to come in.
At this point I'm thinking that for my next 15% water change I'll use 70%
distilled and 30% tap while removing my water softener. I won't add it all
at the same time, as the fish might get freaked out...I'll probably do it
over the course of several hours.

>
> As for the web site's recommendations, I too like California weather, but
> I live in Canada ;~)

I'm actually from California originally, but had to move to New Jersey to be
closer to family. Jersey sucks. ;-)

-Nitesbane

[NetMax]

"Nitesbane" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Nitesbane" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Hi. I have a 55g planted tank (low light). My tap water isn't
exactly
> > > ideal for my community fish or my plants (pH about 8, GH ~250ppm),
and
> > I'd
> > > like to use distilled or RO water instead of using peat moss or
water
> > > softeners that would change the color of my water. What is a good
mix
> > of
> > > tap water to distilled/RO water? And which is better to use (is
there
> > > significant difference?) distilled or RO? Thanks a bunch.
> >
> >
> > It will depend on which is more readily available. How much do you
want
> > to bring it down? Like the effect on you water, it's a question of
> > degrees. Plants can be extremely adaptable. I've got Amazon Sword,
> > Madagascar Lace, a Crypt, some Nymphoides, Java fern, Hornwort and a
few
> > others in well-water which varies from 6 to 35dgH (I allow the tank
to go
> > from 6 to about 24dgH). For reference, you are at 14dgH. My pH is
> > always 8.4pH. The plant's growth rate & pattern can be significantly
> > different. For example, I prefer the look of the Lace in hard water,
as
> > the leaves are broad, low and horizontal providing a 'roof' for fry,
> > whereas the leaves are thinner and vertical in soft water. The
Amazon,
> > Hornwort, Crypts and Nyphoides don't appear to grow any differently
(in
> > shape), but the Nyphoides grows significantly slower, and the Amazon
&
> > Crypt slightly slower (Java fern growth is cm per year). Hornwort is
> > pruned by the foot. I'd be inclined to leave your water as is if
your
> > changes were only for the plants.
> >
> > What type of fish do you have? If they are acclimated to your
current
> > conditions, I would also be inclined to leave it alone. Regular
water
> > changes will keep it fresh, and without messing with the chemistry,
you
> > should have no stability issues. If the fish are acclimated to
softer
> > (or harder) water, then you can make a diluted mix to meet them
halfway
> > for a few weeks. I've found that Discus do poorly above 7.7pH
(probably
> > somewhat due to the local conditions they were raised in, so ymmv).
> > Unless you are planning on breeding, many fish would adapt to 8.0pH.
I
> > have Clown & Yoyo loaches in 8.4pH, and I'm sure they are listed as
soft
> > acidic water fish (Mekong river China I think).
> >
> > Plant growth will soften your water (removes calcium) and acidifies
it as
> > well (as rotting debris). Many types of driftwood will not tint your
> > water, but will still slightly soften it. If you are at a low fish
load,
> > lots of plants and some driftwood, you might find that everything
settles
> > in nicely after a few months.
>
> Thanks for the advice. I keep neon and black neon tetras with a few
danios.
> I have two african dwarf frogs, a panda cory and I just picked up a
> freshwater puffer. The danios breed like there's no tomorrow, but I
would
> really love to be able to bring up some baby tetras. I absolutely
adore
> them, especially the black neons. I have used a combination of
driftwood,
> CO2 injection, and a water softener pillow (gives my water a yellow
tint) to
> bring my GH down to 9 from 15 and my pH down to 7.2-7.5. I'd just like
(for
> now) to make everything neutral and see how the fish like it. Average
gh,
> kh, and ph.
> I didn't know that plant growth would soften the water. I had a 10
gallon
> tank for about a month, then dumped everything into a 55. It's been 3
weeks
> since everything went into the 55 gallon. Right now the tank is
lightly
> planted, but I'm waiting on a plant order to come in.
> At this point I'm thinking that for my next 15% water change I'll use
70%
> distilled and 30% tap while removing my water softener. I won't add it
all
> at the same time, as the fish might get freaked out...I'll probably do
it
> over the course of several hours.
>
> >
> > As for the web site's recommendations, I too like California weather,
but
> > I live in Canada ;~)
>
> I'm actually from California originally, but had to move to New Jersey
to be
> closer to family. Jersey sucks. ;-)
>
> -Nitesbane

Your plan sounds fine. Doing a .7 dilution on 0.15 of your volume = a
10% reduction in hardness, which I think is reasonable, though it would
take quite a monsoon to do that to a natural waterway.

For your reference, hardness changes cause an osmotic pressure across the
fish's gill cells. Going from soft water to hard causes some respiratory
distress until the cells have adapted. Going from hard water to soft can
cause gill cells to rupture. I don't know the levels associated with
this happening, or the timeframes to prevent it from happening, though I
doubt hours will be enough if the levels were at extremes. Watch for
signs of respiratory distress.

I've bred various tetras (Lemons, Emperors..always accidental) in 7.7pH,
3dgH, 2dkH water. I suspect hardness is a greater factor than pH.

ps: Is your puffer a Malabar?, they might be tiny, but watch them, they
are still puffers (in miniature ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mean_Chlorine]

Victor Martinez > wrote in message >...
> Nitesbane wrote:
> > I am planning on breeding my tetras in the near future. Can you answer my
> > question, or are you just going to argue?
>
> You should have started stating that, which you didn't. You just said
> your hard water was not good for plants or community fish, which is not
> true.

I'd agree with you that the original poster doesn't have a problem
with his water - the pH and hardness he quotes will work fine with any
fish.

Unless he wants to breed tetras or dwarf cichlids.

I don't know how high-quality the water from his RO-filter is, but
from what I've gathered one wants to get the conductivity down to 100
uS/cm or lower for breeding sof****er fish.
Ie, at a guesstimate, 2/3rds RO water and 1/3rd tap.

He may also want to do some googling on "season simulation" for
triggering spawning.

[Nitesbane]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> Your plan sounds fine. Doing a .7 dilution on 0.15 of your volume = a
> 10% reduction in hardness, which I think is reasonable, though it would
> take quite a monsoon to do that to a natural waterway.

Well that's what I did. Everything is fine, and the water is clearing up
from my little stint with a water softener pillow.

> For your reference, hardness changes cause an osmotic pressure across the
> fish's gill cells. Going from soft water to hard causes some respiratory
> distress until the cells have adapted. Going from hard water to soft can
> cause gill cells to rupture. I don't know the levels associated with
> this happening, or the timeframes to prevent it from happening, though I
> doubt hours will be enough if the levels were at extremes. Watch for
> signs of respiratory distress.

I took out 10 gallons, added 3 from my tap which is what my fish are used
to. Then I added one gallon of distilled every hour/hour and a half while
carefully watching. No problemo.


> I've bred various tetras (Lemons, Emperors..always accidental) in 7.7pH,
> 3dgH, 2dkH water. I suspect hardness is a greater factor than pH.

That's definitely good to know. Did you try to raise the fry? If so, what
was your success rate with them?

> ps: Is your puffer a Malabar?, they might be tiny, but watch them, they
> are still puffers (in miniature ;~)

I have no idea what kind of puffer it is. The guy at the fish store
couldn't tell me, but he said he might grow to be about 2.5-3" (the "boss"
had already left for the day). I have pictures of him if you'd like to try
to help me identify him. He's about 3/4" long at the moment.

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/belliqueu/detail?.dir=/3e68&.dnm=3924.jpg
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/belliqueu/detail?.dir=/3e68&.dnm=6688.jpg

They were taken while I was acclimating him. I have yet to get a good
picture of him swimming around the tank. I was a little nervous that he
didn't seem interested in the frozen brine shrimp I put in there for the
frogs...but then I started finding empty snail shells everywhere so I
suspect he's been munching on them (though I was under the impression that
they eat the shells too). He'll take blackworms if I hand feed them. The
guy at the fish store was worried about my frogs trying to eat him, but
they're frogs are too lazy and nearsighted to chase anything that moves
much. "The guy" also said they develop a poisonous slime coating when they
become adults, that if my danios tried to take a bite out of him they'd
probably die. Is this true? I'm afraid I haven't done quite enough
research on my little puffer... Thanks for all your advice! (Both in your
posts and your website.)

-Nitesbane

[NetMax]

"Nitesbane" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > Your plan sounds fine. Doing a .7 dilution on 0.15 of your volume =
a
> > 10% reduction in hardness, which I think is reasonable, though it
would
> > take quite a monsoon to do that to a natural waterway.
>
> Well that's what I did. Everything is fine, and the water is clearing
up
> from my little stint with a water softener pillow.
>
> > For your reference, hardness changes cause an osmotic pressure across
the
> > fish's gill cells. Going from soft water to hard causes some
respiratory
> > distress until the cells have adapted. Going from hard water to soft
can
> > cause gill cells to rupture. I don't know the levels associated with
> > this happening, or the timeframes to prevent it from happening,
though I
> > doubt hours will be enough if the levels were at extremes. Watch for
> > signs of respiratory distress.
>
> I took out 10 gallons, added 3 from my tap which is what my fish are
used
> to. Then I added one gallon of distilled every hour/hour and a half
while
> carefully watching. No problemo.
>
>
> > I've bred various tetras (Lemons, Emperors..always accidental) in
7.7pH,
> > 3dgH, 2dkH water. I suspect hardness is a greater factor than pH.
>
> That's definitely good to know. Did you try to raise the fry? If so,
what
> was your success rate with them?

They were born in 60g tanks which were moderately planted but had high
fish loads. By the time I noticed the fry, there were only a few left
each time, and these were the ones which could already take care of
themselves. The grew to full size, and had some subtle differences which
let me keep track of them. My success rate was 100% from that point, but
0.1% from eggs due initially or primarily (I don't know which) from
predation.

> > ps: Is your puffer a Malabar?, they might be tiny, but watch them,
they
> > are still puffers (in miniature ;~)
>
> I have no idea what kind of puffer it is. The guy at the fish store
> couldn't tell me, but he said he might grow to be about 2.5-3" (the
"boss"
> had already left for the day). I have pictures of him if you'd like to
try
> to help me identify him. He's about 3/4" long at the moment.
>
>
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/belliqueu/detail?.dir=/3e68&.dnm=3924.jpg
>
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/belliqueu/detail?.dir=/3e68&.dnm=6688.jpg

Malabars stay small so that's not it.
http://puffernet.tripod.com/main.html is what I use for species
identification.

> They were taken while I was acclimating him. I have yet to get a good
> picture of him swimming around the tank. I was a little nervous that
he
> didn't seem interested in the frozen brine shrimp I put in there for
the
> frogs...but then I started finding empty snail shells everywhere so I
> suspect he's been munching on them (though I was under the impression
that
> they eat the shells too). He'll take blackworms if I hand feed them.
The
> guy at the fish store was worried about my frogs trying to eat him, but
> they're frogs are too lazy and nearsighted to chase anything that moves
> much. "The guy" also said they develop a poisonous slime coating when
they
> become adults, that if my danios tried to take a bite out of him they'd
> probably die. Is this true? I'm afraid I haven't done quite enough
> research on my little puffer... Thanks for all your advice! (Both in
your
> posts and your website.)

Based on it's size, you might have difficulty identifying him. I don't
usually trust the LFS for advice. There is too much information passed
down, and the source could be wrong, or right but the fish has changed
and puffers can be difficult to I.D. Puffernet should help you out.
Glad to hear you got some use from my site :o)
--
www.NetMax.tk

> -Nitesbane
>
>