Bottle Biology: Guppies & Cold Water [Archive]

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Ben Sharvy

July 1st 04, 11:45 PM

I am teaching summer school to teenagers, and thinking of doing this
lesson I found on the Internet:
http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/bottle.html

I was all set to buy the materials, until the fish guy at the pet
store expressed skepticism that it would work, because guppies require
warm water, (and if I did find a way to heat the water, the elodea
will break down). He suggested another live-bearing fish whose name I
didn't catch.

Can I get some expert advice on whether this would be a successful
experiment (I really don't want all the kids' fish to die)? I don't
know anything about fish, I just want them to do some science that
isn't worksheets out of a textbook. But I need to set up the kids for
success.

GloFish

July 2nd 04, 01:33 AM

On 1 Jul 2004 15:45:51 -0700, (Ben Sharvy) wrote:

>I am teaching summer school to teenagers, and thinking of doing this
>lesson I found on the Internet:
>http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/bottle.html
>
>I was all set to buy the materials, until the fish guy at the pet
>store expressed skepticism that it would work, because guppies require
>warm water, (and if I did find a way to heat the water, the elodea
>will break down). He suggested another live-bearing fish whose name I
>didn't catch.
>
>Can I get some expert advice on whether this would be a successful
>experiment (I really don't want all the kids' fish to die)? I don't
>know anything about fish, I just want them to do some science that
>isn't worksheets out of a textbook. But I need to set up the kids for
>success.

Guppies are a tropical fish, but are pretty hardy. We have a 20
gallon guppy tank at home, and keep the temp around 75-77. It warms
up in the day with the sun, and cools some at night.

Elodea is pretty hardy too, often called "water weed" There are a
number of varieties, including one native to Brazil, where the water
is warm

From the Washington State Department of Ecology
(http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/wq/plants/weeds/aqua002.html)

High water temperatures (greater than 30 degrees centigrade) and high
light intensities can cause senescence.

The biggest issue to consider is the treatment aspect of the project.
Two litres is small. All fish like room to swim. Putting several
guppies, even just two, into such a small environment is considered
cruel to many.

On a personal note, I would not do it, there just really is not enough
room to do the fish justice. Even Betas (Siamese fighting fish) need
and deserve more room than most give them. My beta has flourished
for years in my 45 gallon tropical tank.

In the end you need to make your own decision, but there is a
difference between surviving and thriving. The fish will not thrive
in such a small environment, and moving them in and out (for the
project and after) causes shock to the fish.

Just my opinion (with some facts at the top)

--Tony

Mean_Chlorine

July 2nd 04, 03:05 AM

(Ben Sharvy) wrote in message >...

> I was all set to buy the materials, until the fish guy at the pet
> store expressed skepticism that it would work, because guppies require
> warm water, (and if I did find a way to heat the water, the elodea
> will break down). He suggested another live-bearing fish whose name I
> didn't catch.

While I am personally not that happy about using vertebrates in this
manner (which, btw, would be illegal here in Sweden, as experiments on
live animals are strictly regulated), both guppies and Elodea tolerate
normal room temperature and have a sizeable temperature tolerance
overlap. If you stay in the interval 20 - 28 celsius, both the Elodea
and the guppies will be fine. Temperature wise, anyway.

I'd also suggest you get hold of wild-type guppy or Endler's guppy,
they're a lot hardier than the fancy varieties. And smaller.

Cris

July 2nd 04, 03:23 AM

Guppies are fine at room temperature. Their comfort range is about
65-80F. You'll only run into a problem if there are big temperature
swings.

I would certainly not keep the fish in that small a container for very
long, but a short time will probably work. There was an article in
Tropical Fish Hobbyist by someone who did this same project - only it
was done over only a 2 week period. The author said that it was very
successful and many of the kids took the fish home to 10 gallon tanks
at the end of the project. Some of the guppies had fry in the bottles
(were probably pregnant before they were purchased). I would think
you would want to remove the fry, though as they further crowd the
bottle.

Water changes aren't mentioned in the experiment. You should first
try it out on your own to monitor ammonia levels. If it gets too
high, you'll need to do water changes - possibly a small amount every
day or two. If you do make water changes, you'll also need to get a
declorinator or keep some aged water.

Cris

On 1 Jul 2004 15:45:51 -0700, (Ben Sharvy) wrote:

>I am teaching summer school to teenagers, and thinking of doing this
>lesson I found on the Internet:
>http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/bottle.html
>
>I was all set to buy the materials, until the fish guy at the pet
>store expressed skepticism that it would work, because guppies require
>warm water, (and if I did find a way to heat the water, the elodea
>will break down). He suggested another live-bearing fish whose name I
>didn't catch.
>
>Can I get some expert advice on whether this would be a successful
>experiment (I really don't want all the kids' fish to die)? I don't
>know anything about fish, I just want them to do some science that
>isn't worksheets out of a textbook. But I need to set up the kids for
>success.

luminos

July 2nd 04, 06:24 AM

The experiment treats the fish as disposable. I am not for that. Why not
include future housing and nurturing?

"Ben Sharvy" > wrote in message
om...
> I am teaching summer school to teenagers, and thinking of doing this
> lesson I found on the Internet:
>
http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/bottle.html
>
> I was all set to buy the materials, until the fish guy at the pet
> store expressed skepticism that it would work, because guppies require
> warm water, (and if I did find a way to heat the water, the elodea
> will break down). He suggested another live-bearing fish whose name I
> didn't catch.
>
> Can I get some expert advice on whether this would be a successful
> experiment (I really don't want all the kids' fish to die)? I don't
> know anything about fish, I just want them to do some science that
> isn't worksheets out of a textbook. But I need to set up the kids for
> success.

Cris

July 2nd 04, 05:06 PM

Oh, absolutely! You should have a couple 10 gallon or larger tanks to
house the fish when the experiment is done. Separate the males and
females if you don't want hundreds of fry.

The kids should certainly be taught that it would be inhumane to keep
the fish in those little bottles for very long.

Cris

On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:24:46 -0700, "luminos" > wrote:

>The experiment treats the fish as disposable. I am not for that. Why not
>include future housing and nurturing?

nuchumYussel

July 3rd 04, 01:39 AM

I personally do not feel this would be too good for the fish. Seeing
how there would be no filtration, unless there is an airstone, no
aeration and no reliable heat source. Unless this is for IMO less than
two or three days I would think that most of the fish would die.
Another fear of mine would be that either the air conditioning gets
turned off causing the water to overheat, or someone will feel warm in
the room and then nock the air temperature down causing the water to
be cold. But keep in mind, I am not an expert on the subject, just a
concerned aquarist.

Evan Davis

chas good

July 3rd 04, 03:27 AM

Sue

July 3rd 04, 08:07 AM

The original project calls for a four week period.
If you have this time available why not set up some ten gallons tanks using
different methods. Bare ten gallons are cheap ;o)

Monitor the nitrogen cycle with different variables in each.
You won't need heaters.
You will need three small, cheap internal filters.

Ammonia, fish food & three zebra danois are the three test foods - run a
sweepstake on which will finish the cycle first on what date & the winner
takes a tank home LOL

If you can run to six tanks you can duplicate using seeded tanks or with
plants.

Lots of science possibilities. Water testing, weighing food for the danios &
adding the same quantity of food to the control tank - what difference does
processing through the fish make???

Plenty to work with?
Sue

"Ben Sharvy" > wrote in message
om...
> I am teaching summer school to teenagers, and thinking of doing this
> lesson I found on the Internet:
>
http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/bottle.html
>
> I was all set to buy the materials, until the fish guy at the pet
> store expressed skepticism that it would work, because guppies require
> warm water, (and if I did find a way to heat the water, the elodea
> will break down). He suggested another live-bearing fish whose name I
> didn't catch.
>
> Can I get some expert advice on whether this would be a successful
> experiment (I really don't want all the kids' fish to die)? I don't
> know anything about fish, I just want them to do some science that
> isn't worksheets out of a textbook. But I need to set up the kids for
> success.

Runner

July 3rd 04, 01:33 PM

A guy at work has a 3 gallon tank with no heater. He has kept guppies in it
for about 2 years now. The temperature stays around 68 to 72 degress (plus
a little daylight heating from the light). The fish seem healthy enough and
even reproduce.

I wouldn't put more than 2 or 3 small feeder guppies in the 2-liter bottles,
though. Guppies are sturdy fish, but some will die in the ammonia cycle
that will happen over the first 2 or 3 weeks. The plants may help. Also,
the surface area of the plants and sand may be big enough to build up enough
bacteria to effectively filter for a few very small fish before the end of
the expieriment. I would cut off the top of the bottles, too, to increase
air exchange. You might have oxygen problems if the top is left on. And if
somebody puts the cap on, it will killl 'em off.

All in all, sounds like a good "experiment". More like observe and record,
but might be good at getting some youngsters interested in the hobby. Those
that are interested may be persuaded to get a proper tank on their own for
their subjects at the end. Those that don't care may flush their subjects.
So be it. Its only a few guppies. In that 4-week period, most peoples
Oscars will eat more than will die in this observation activity. The
natural observation skills taught to them are worth it. I disected a frog,
a baby pig, and a big 'ol earthworm in biology in highschool. And a cat in
anatomy in college. They didn't have as good a chance of survival as the
guppies will.

Be sure to stress that, at the end of the experiment, that they need a
better habitat to continue keeping their fish in if they wish to do so.

-Scott

"Ben Sharvy" > wrote in message
om...
> I am teaching summer school to teenagers, and thinking of doing this
> lesson I found on the Internet:
>
http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/bottle.htm
l
>
> I was all set to buy the materials, until the fish guy at the pet
> store expressed skepticism that it would work, because guppies require
> warm water, (and if I did find a way to heat the water, the elodea
> will break down). He suggested another live-bearing fish whose name I
> didn't catch.
>
> Can I get some expert advice on whether this would be a successful
> experiment (I really don't want all the kids' fish to die)? I don't
> know anything about fish, I just want them to do some science that
> isn't worksheets out of a textbook. But I need to set up the kids for
> success.

Lady Samsara

July 3rd 04, 06:01 PM

"Sue" > wrote in message >...
> The original project calls for a four week period.
> If you have this time available why not set up some ten gallons tanks using
> different methods. Bare ten gallons are cheap ;o)
>
> Monitor the nitrogen cycle with different variables in each.
> You won't need heaters.
> You will need three small, cheap internal filters.
>
> Ammonia, fish food & three zebra danois are the three test foods - run a
> sweepstake on which will finish the cycle first on what date & the winner
> takes a tank home LOL
>
> If you can run to six tanks you can duplicate using seeded tanks or with
> plants.
>
> Lots of science possibilities. Water testing, weighing food for the danios &
> adding the same quantity of food to the control tank - what difference does
> processing through the fish make???
>
> Plenty to work with?
> Sue
>
> "Ben Sharvy" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I am teaching summer school to teenagers, and thinking of doing this
> > lesson I found on the Internet:
> >
> http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/bottle.html
> >
> > I was all set to buy the materials, until the fish guy at the pet
> > store expressed skepticism that it would work, because guppies require
> > warm water, (and if I did find a way to heat the water, the elodea
> > will break down). He suggested another live-bearing fish whose name I
> > didn't catch.
> >
> > Can I get some expert advice on whether this would be a successful
> > experiment (I really don't want all the kids' fish to die)? I don't
> > know anything about fish, I just want them to do some science that
> > isn't worksheets out of a textbook. But I need to set up the kids for
> > success.

In response to chas and Sue's posts, WalMart and PetsMart both have 1
gallon tanks that come with an UGF and a light for about $10.00. The
tanks would not be cycled but at least the filter would help with some
of the debris. WalMart has the bare 10 gallon tank (just the tank,
nothing else) for $9.00, so that might be a consideration as well.

Personally, I don't care for this idea. I would never use living
things in that small of an environment as a learning tool or
"experiment". I would want to teach children that all living things
are sacred and deserve respect. Just my opinion.

nuchumYussel

July 4th 04, 12:27 AM

(Lady Samsara) wrote in message >...
> "Sue" > wrote in message >...
> > The original project calls for a four week period.
> > If you have this time available why not set up some ten gallons tanks using
> > different methods. Bare ten gallons are cheap ;o)
> >
> > Monitor the nitrogen cycle with different variables in each.
> > You won't need heaters.
> > You will need three small, cheap internal filters.
> >
> > Ammonia, fish food & three zebra danois are the three test foods - run a
> > sweepstake on which will finish the cycle first on what date & the winner
> > takes a tank home LOL
> >
> > If you can run to six tanks you can duplicate using seeded tanks or with
> > plants.
> >
> > Lots of science possibilities. Water testing, weighing food for the danios &
> > adding the same quantity of food to the control tank - what difference does
> > processing through the fish make???
> >
> > Plenty to work with?
> > Sue
> >
> > "Ben Sharvy" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > I am teaching summer school to teenagers, and thinking of doing this
> > > lesson I found on the Internet:
> > >
> http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/bottle.html
> > >
> > > I was all set to buy the materials, until the fish guy at the pet
> > > store expressed skepticism that it would work, because guppies require
> > > warm water, (and if I did find a way to heat the water, the elodea
> > > will break down). He suggested another live-bearing fish whose name I
> > > didn't catch.
> > >
> > > Can I get some expert advice on whether this would be a successful
> > > experiment (I really don't want all the kids' fish to die)? I don't
> > > know anything about fish, I just want them to do some science that
> > > isn't worksheets out of a textbook. But I need to set up the kids for
> > > success.
>
> In response to chas and Sue's posts, WalMart and PetsMart both have 1
> gallon tanks that come with an UGF and a light for about $10.00. The
> tanks would not be cycled but at least the filter would help with some
> of the debris. WalMart has the bare 10 gallon tank (just the tank,
> nothing else) for $9.00, so that might be a consideration as well.
>
> Personally, I don't care for this idea. I would never use living
> things in that small of an environment as a learning tool or
> "experiment". I would want to teach children that all living things
> are sacred and deserve respect. Just my opinion.

I highly agree with you!

Evan

Kay

July 4th 04, 12:33 AM

I also agree with you!

Kay

TYNK 7

July 4th 04, 01:47 AM

>Subject: Re: Bottle Biology: Guppies & Cold Water
>From: GloFish
>Date: 7/1/2004 7:33 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 1 Jul 2004 15:45:51 -0700, (Ben Sharvy) wrote:
>
>>I am teaching summer school to teenagers, and thinking of doing this
>>lesson I found on the Internet:
>
>>http://www.reachoutmichigan.org/funexperiments/agesubject/lessons/bottle.html
>>
>>I was all set to buy the materials, until the fish guy at the pet
>>store expressed skepticism that it would work, because guppies require
>>warm water, (and if I did find a way to heat the water, the elodea
>>will break down). He suggested another live-bearing fish whose name I
>>didn't catch.
>>
>>Can I get some expert advice on whether this would be a successful
>>experiment (I really don't want all the kids' fish to die)? I don't
>>know anything about fish, I just want them to do some science that
>>isn't worksheets out of a textbook. But I need to set up the kids for
>>success.
>
>
>Guppies are a tropical fish, but are pretty hardy. We have a 20
>gallon guppy tank at home, and keep the temp around 75-77. It warms
>up in the day with the sun, and cools some at night.
>
>Elodea is pretty hardy too, often called "water weed" There are a
>number of varieties, including one native to Brazil, where the water
>is warm
>
>From the Washington State Department of Ecology
>(http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/wq/plants/weeds/aqua002.html)
>
>High water temperatures (greater than 30 degrees centigrade) and high
>light intensities can cause senescence.
>
>
>The biggest issue to consider is the treatment aspect of the project.
>Two litres is small. All fish like room to swim. Putting several
>guppies, even just two, into such a small environment is considered
>cruel to many.
>
>On a personal note, I would not do it, there just really is not enough
>room to do the fish justice. Even Betas (Siamese fighting fish) need
>and deserve more room than most give them. My beta has flourished
>for years in my 45 gallon tropical tank.
>
>In the end you need to make your own decision, but there is a
>difference between surviving and thriving. The fish will not thrive
>in such a small environment, and moving them in and out (for the
>project and after) causes shock to the fish.
>
>Just my opinion (with some facts at the top)
>
>

I agree, it's just too small and a bit cruel.
I wouldn't ever recommend even a Betta (2 t's and is pronounced "bet-uh", not
"bait-uh") for such a small container.
Aside from the lack of space....what would the teacher be doing with these fish
afterwards?
All too often a teacher thinks it would be a good idea to do an experiment with
fish when they know nothing about fish in the first place.
The fish end up dying or being sent home to students who have no knowledge of
the hobby and then it gets put on the parents shoulders to figure out what to
do with these fish that were sent home.
How about a nice science experiment using plants. = )~
On a side note, I would like to say I did have a biology teacher in high school
that knew the hobby and proper fish care. If anyone did any type of experiment
using fish, it was usually with the fish in his room, or they were set up in
the classroom and became his.

TYNK 7

July 4th 04, 01:52 AM

(Snipped)
>Subject: Re: Bottle Biology: Guppies & Cold Water
>From: "Runner"
>Date: 7/3/2004 7:33 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: .net>

>Those
>that are interested may be persuaded to get a proper tank on their own for
>their subjects at the end. Those that don't care may flush their subjects.
>So be it. Its only a few guppies.

That's just sick.
They may be "only a few Guppies", but they are living creatures no less!

Sue

July 4th 04, 02:36 AM

You don't think teaching the kids about cycling using ten gallon tanks
comparing fishless & with fish is going to help prevent those kids putting
fish in an uncycled, too small tank?
Things learnt on active science courses have a tendency to stick in the
mind. Three zebras could save many fish & as the cycle will be carefully
monitored the water changes could be twice/thrice daily to prevent harm.
I could never condone the original suggestion though which is why I tried to
find a humane alternative.

I personally would like to see the German law of a 30 litre ( between 8 & 9
US gallons) as minimum tank size worldwide - a "one gallon tank" is a not a
fish home it is a torture chamber!
Sue

"Kay" > wrote in message
news:NmHFc.19100$%_6.8529@attbi_s01...
> I also agree with you!
>
> Kay
>

Lady Samsara

July 4th 04, 07:05 PM

Limnophile

July 5th 04, 10:07 AM

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
<snip>

> I personally would like to see the German law of a 30 litre ( between 8 &
9
> US gallons) as minimum tank size worldwide - a "one gallon tank" is a not
a
> fish home it is a torture chamber!
> Sue

I do agree that most fish need much more room, but a single betta or pair of
small killifish could do reasonably well in just one gallon.

Limnophile

Sue

July 5th 04, 06:00 PM

> I do agree that most fish need much more room, but a single betta or pair
of
> small killifish could do reasonably well in just one gallon.
>
> Limnophile

Agreed - as long as temperature & water quality is maintained. I used to
breed Bettas & reared males in 2 litre jars with 150% daily flooded water
changes
Unfortunately people see the tiny kits & think they are an easy option and
they don't address the above. Far better for the fish if the smallest tank
on sale was a ten gallon.
( But then people would put twenty fish in because its a BIG tank ;o{ )

Sue

Dr Engelbert Buxbaum

July 12th 04, 06:14 AM

chas good wrote:

> I think the use of 2 liter soda pop bottles is to cut costs. See if
> you can find something larger to use instead. I would say 1 gallon
> minimum. Might be hard to find a clear disposable bottle that size.
> Anyone have a suggestion?

Doesn't vinegar come in 1 gallon screw cap bottles? Shouldn't be too big
for a summer camp.