new tank

[philip cosson]

Hi,

Here are my 3 questions, read on to hear the full story:

Is it worth trying to get the alkalinity up from 3-4dH? Have I done
more harm than good boiling the ceramic media? Should I try to kick
start the cycle?


I'm new to fish. I've been surfing the net and decided on a Biorb. My
plan is one fantailed goldfish (that will be transfered to a friends
pond when too large) and 5 white cloud minnows. I'm currently setting
the tank up.

Water - soft (3-4dH) with a relatively high pH (7.8), which is a bit
of a problem. I Have one oyster shell (picked out of a scottish loch
wile on holiday) I was thinking of crushing this up and putting the
bigger peces in a small net bag to bring the hardness up. But i'm
worried about the pH rising too much for the fish I'm interested in.

The local water company use chlorine not chloramine, but are
"experimenting at the moment".

I have left the tank on for 24 hrs so far. I also put the sachet of
water conditioner in (stress coat). I'm hoping that the temparature
will have stabilsied and the chlorine either dissipated or neutralised
by now.

All the above is as instructed by the biorb literature.

BUT

My LFS suggetsed I should treat all ceramic medial and decorations (I
bought a "ruin") with boiling water to kill bacteria. So I did this
before adding to the tank. This is not in the literature. I have now
read all about the nitrogen cycle and I'm worried I've killed off all
the good bacteria and this will make it too hard to cycle the tank.

Can I add bacteria some how? I was wondering about sarting the cycle
with some ammonia sulfate from the garden centre, and adding some
bacteria artificially (my local koi carp shop has a bottle of
"bactria" for £10.50). My aim is to get goldie on 15th July (my
daughters birthday) and run with just him until after the hols.

is it worth trying to get the alkalinity up from 3-4dH? Have I done
more harm than good boiling the ceramic media? Should I try to kick
start the cycle?

PS - The ceramic media dosent seem to be enough. Do most people buy
another pack?

[Charles]

On 6 Jul 2004 02:10:58 -0700, (philip cosson)
wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Here are my 3 questions, read on to hear the full story:
>
>Is it worth trying to get the alkalinity up from 3-4dH? Have I done
>more harm than good boiling the ceramic media? Should I try to kick
>start the cycle?
>
>
Boiling the ceramic did no harm, nor probably no good. If it wasn't
infected with known bad bacteria, it was innocuous. No harm, no
benefit.

>I'm new to fish. I've been surfing the net and decided on a Biorb. My
>plan is one fantailed goldfish (that will be transfered to a friends
>pond when too large) and 5 white cloud minnows. I'm currently setting
>the tank up.
>
How large is the tank? A fantail can live in an aquarium for a long
time, and is not really a good candidate for a pond.

>Water - soft (3-4dH) with a relatively high pH (7.8), which is a bit
>of a problem. I Have one oyster shell (picked out of a scottish loch
>wile on holiday) I was thinking of crushing this up and putting the
>bigger peces in a small net bag to bring the hardness up. But i'm
>worried about the pH rising too much for the fish I'm interested in.
>

Wow, 7.8 pH. How many people would like to have that water. 8.8n
would start to be a problem for the fish you are talking about, don't
worry about the pH. softness is a bit of a concern, this can be
adjusted by adding baking soda, sodium bicarbonate. raising the
alkalinity will help stabilize any pH swings. does sodium bicarb
raise hardness? it depends on whose definitions you are using, but
the alkalinity is what is important here.

The less modifications you have to make to your water, the more likely
you are to do water changes. Water changes are good.

>The local water company use chlorine not chloramine, but are
>"experimenting at the moment".

Get a chlorine neutralizer that will deal with chloramines as well as
with just chlorine, that way you won't have to worry what the water
company is up to.


>
>I have left the tank on for 24 hrs so far. I also put the sachet of
>water conditioner in (stress coat). I'm hoping that the temparature
>will have stabilsied and the chlorine either dissipated or neutralised
>by now.
>

I expect that it has. I add dechlor at the same time I add new water,
there is no appreciable delay in its effectiveness.

>All the above is as instructed by the biorb literature.
>
>BUT
>
>My LFS suggetsed I should treat all ceramic medial and decorations (I
>bought a "ruin") with boiling water to kill bacteria. So I did this
>before adding to the tank. This is not in the literature. I have now
>read all about the nitrogen cycle and I'm worried I've killed off all
>the good bacteria and this will make it too hard to cycle the tank.

You can get good information from the LFS, or bad. I don't think you
have done any harm here, nor any good. the fish will bring bacteria,
any plants will bring some, and air currents will contribute as well.
>
>Can I add bacteria some how? I was wondering about sarting the cycle
>with some ammonia sulfate from the garden centre, and adding some
>bacteria artificially (my local koi carp shop has a bottle of
>"bactria" for £10.50). My aim is to get goldie on 15th July (my
>daughters birthday) and run with just him until after the hols.

You can get starter bacteria, but you never know what you are getting.
Better would be to get a good test kit for ammonia and nitrite, check
the water daily and change the water if the chemistry gets out of
hand.
>
>is it worth trying to get the alkalinity up from 3-4dH? Have I done
>more harm than good boiling the ceramic media? Should I try to kick
>start the cycle?
>
>PS - The ceramic media dosent seem to be enough. Do most people buy
>another pack?


I've never used the ceramic by itself, usually a sponge is included in
the kit. I use them in a way wrong manner as well, my fish seem to
survive.


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[Ali Day]

> My LFS suggetsed I should treat all ceramic medial and decorations (I
> bought a "ruin") with boiling water to kill bacteria. So I did this
> before adding to the tank. This is not in the literature. I have now
> read all about the nitrogen cycle and I'm worried I've killed off all
> the good bacteria and this will make it too hard to cycle the tank.

The ceramic media doesn't house any bacteria used by the aquarium when you
buy it, the media is an 'empty house' with lots of surface area for the
benificial bacteria to live in. Boiling it should have no effect.

> Can I add bacteria some how? I was wondering about starting the cycle
> with some ammonia sulfate from the garden centre, and adding some
> bacteria artificially (my local koi carp shop has a bottle of
> "bactria" for £10.50). My aim is to get goldie on 15th July (my
> daughters birthday) and run with just him until after the hols.

I'm am unsure about bought bacteria, I have used biodigest in the past, but
have recently been informed here that it is pointless, and it doesn't have
the correct bacteria in it. There are some who have been raving about 'bio
spira' being able to cycle your tank quickly.

> is it worth trying to get the alkalinity up from 3-4dH? Have I done
> more harm than good boiling the ceramic media? Should I try to kick
> start the cycle?

As above, doubt it, also it's not alkalinity, it's water hardness, though
your water is slightly alkali.

My water is soft as it comes from mountain reservoirs run through peat. It
has unusually though a PH of 7.7 (manipulated by the water authority maybe)
and I use an electronic controller with CO2 to bring it down to 6.5, but I
need the controller. I once had the PH crash through the floor when a valve
was knocked, so the controller gives me protection against the low DH.

I don't know about kick starting tanks using chemicals, and personally I
wouldn't do it. On a first tank patience is a must, don't rush things. Keep
an eye on your water quality when you have your first couple of fish in
there, and keep doing water changes as necessary. My very first tank took
about 6 weeks. But I can't stress how important patience is, and reading up
on the subject (which you seem to have done)

My last tank, I seeded it from my old tank and didn't see any levels at all.
I believe it cycled in under 24 hours with over 100 inches of fish in it. If
you know anyone with a good tank ask to get some of their filter material.

> PS - The ceramic media dosent seem to be enough. Do most people buy
> another pack?

Depends on your filter size and tank size, I use two bags of the eheim
filter 'balls' on a 600L aquarium, with some filter wool, and I don't have
any levels in my tank. It's medium planted.

Hope some of this helps.

A

[philip cosson]

> As above, doubt it, also it's not alkalinity, it's water hardness, though
> your water is slightly alkali.

Thanks for all your comments. Ive bought a test kit for hardness
today. I was previously quoting the LFS figure for the areas water
hardness. I now have figres of 2dH for KH and 7dH for GH. pH today
(with plants just in) is 7.4

I'm also starting an experiment in a small jug with ammonia sulphate
and bacterlife. I've recorded the ammonia at 2-3 mg/l and hope to see
if i get some nitrite. If I manage to cycle this 1 Litre in the next 5
days, I'll add it to the 30L Biorb and add some bacterlife and ammonia
to try and chemical cycle this.

I'm being fussy because a) I used to be a chemistry student and it's
an excuse to get my white coat out (not literaly) b) my son is
learning how to titrate and c) I don't want my daughter's birthday
fish to die!

Should I try to raise the KH? Will oyster shells do this?

Regards

Philip

[chas good]

On 6 Jul 2004 15:29:49 -0700, (philip cosson)
wrote:

>> As above, doubt it, also it's not alkalinity, it's water hardness, though
>> your water is slightly alkali.
>
>Thanks for all your comments. Ive bought a test kit for hardness
>today. I was previously quoting the LFS figure for the areas water
>hardness. I now have figres of 2dH for KH and 7dH for GH. pH today
>(with plants just in) is 7.4
>
>I'm also starting an experiment in a small jug with ammonia sulphate
>and bacterlife. I've recorded the ammonia at 2-3 mg/l and hope to see
>if i get some nitrite. If I manage to cycle this 1 Litre in the next 5
>days, I'll add it to the 30L Biorb and add some bacterlife and ammonia
>to try and chemical cycle this.
>
>I'm being fussy because a) I used to be a chemistry student and it's
>an excuse to get my white coat out (not literaly) b) my son is
>learning how to titrate and c) I don't want my daughter's birthday
>fish to die!
>
>Should I try to raise the KH? Will oyster shells do this?
>
>Regards
>
>Philip


KH helps buffer the PH. You should be ok as long as you don't add
chemicals to change the PH. The PH decreasers will deplete your KH
buffer fairly fast. Then you could see wide swings in PH.
Be happy with 7.4 and leave well enough alone.

My water has a KH >15dh and the PH is >8.8 That is as high as the
chart goes. Did a test in a bucket to lower PH to 7.0 with a decreaser
bought in a lfs. Could not believe how much of the chemical it took to
lower the PH to 7.0 only to see it bounce back up within 24 hours.
That is the KH buffer at work. So instead of playing chemist with my
tank I just got fish better suited to a high PH.

[Charles]

On 6 Jul 2004 15:29:49 -0700, (philip cosson)
wrote:

>> As above, doubt it, also it's not alkalinity, it's water hardness, though
>> your water is slightly alkali.
>
>Thanks for all your comments. Ive bought a test kit for hardness
>today. I was previously quoting the LFS figure for the areas water
>hardness. I now have figres of 2dH for KH and 7dH for GH. pH today
>(with plants just in) is 7.4
>
>I'm also starting an experiment in a small jug with ammonia sulphate
>and bacterlife. I've recorded the ammonia at 2-3 mg/l and hope to see
>if i get some nitrite. If I manage to cycle this 1 Litre in the next 5
>days, I'll add it to the 30L Biorb and add some bacterlife and ammonia
>to try and chemical cycle this.
>
>I'm being fussy because a) I used to be a chemistry student and it's
>an excuse to get my white coat out (not literaly) b) my son is
>learning how to titrate and c) I don't want my daughter's birthday
>fish to die!
>
>Should I try to raise the KH? Will oyster shells do this?
>
>Regards
>
>Philip


Why ammonium sulfate? The usual recommendation I see is to use
ammonium hydroxide, regular household ammonia. I believe the ammonium
sulfate will leave an acid reaction, that's the reason we use it on
lawns in So. Cal. where the water is quite alkaline.

2 dH and 7 KH sound really low to me. the oyster shells would be a
good idea.

Have you read the info on Dr. Johnson's site? www.koivet.com

an amazing amount of info, I'm trying to learn a bit of it.

My tap water runs about 35 KH and 55 dH. Not the best in the world,
but nothing is going to change it, it's buffered quite well.


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

[philip cosson]

> >I'm also starting an experiment in a small jug with ammonia sulphate
> >and bacterlife. I've recorded the ammonia at 2-3 mg/l and hope to see
> >if i get some nitrite. If I manage to cycle this 1 Litre in the next 5
> >days, I'll add it to the 30L Biorb and add some bacterlife and ammonia
> >to try and chemical cycle this.

> Why ammonium sulfate?

I had it in my garden shed! I've tested the pH tonight and it's at 7.8
- so thats OK. I've tested nitrite - and I'm getting the first
indication of a rise, not yet on the scale, but definitely not zero.
I'll add some more ammonia and bacterlife tonight. (I decided to add
some ceramic media to the experimental jug, so that any bacterial
growth have somewhere to live, that I can transfer to the biorb)

I'm also collecting some filter squeezings from a friends tank to add
to the mix. Ill transfer to a 3 litre bucket when I add that. I'm
hoping by next wednesday - I'll have the start of a bacteria colony on
my ceramic media - I can then transfer this to the biorb at the same
time I put my first fish in.


> 2 dH and 7 KH sound really low to me. the oyster shells would be a
> good idea.

The KH was 2 it is 3 today. I'll put the oyster shells in tonight.

[philip cosson]

(philip cosson) wrote in message >...
> > >I'm also starting an experiment in a small jug with ammonia sulphate
> > >and bacterlife. I've recorded the ammonia at 2-3 mg/l and hope to see
> > >if i get some nitrite. If I manage to cycle this 1 Litre in the next 5
> > >days, I'll add it to the 30L Biorb and add some bacterlife and ammonia
> > >to try and chemical cycle this.

> I've tested nitrite - and I'm getting the first
> indication of a rise, not yet on the scale, but definitely not zero.
> I'll add some more ammonia and bacterlife tonight. (I decided to add
> some ceramic media to the experimental jug, so that any bacterial
> growth have somewhere to live, that I can transfer to the biorb)

Nitrite is now a good and strong reaction in my 1L test bowl - I have
used bacterlife (about 5-10 times the recommended dose) with a good
feed with ammonium sulphate solution (to make the bowl about 5mg/l
concentration) I have breed good bacteria on a ceramic (large surface
area) media. I kept the bowl warmish and it has a large surface area
for volume and the water was declorinated with Haloex. As there is no
control, I can't attribute ths to Bacterlife, but I suspect it had
something to do with it.

> I'm also collecting some filter squeezings from a friends tank to add
> to the mix. Ill transfer to a 3 litre bucket when I add that.

I've got the squeezings - so I'm going to add these now and dose with
ammonia to the same level. I've put nearly all my biorb ceramic media
in the test bowl with 2L of water and the test will continue.
>
> > 2 dH and 7 KH sound really low to me. the oyster shells would be a
> > good idea.
>
> The KH was 2 it is 3 today. I'll put the oyster shells in tonight.

One oyster shell for 24 hrs (not crushed) has had no effect on KH -
will crush and measure tomorrow.

[philip cosson]

> (philip cosson) wrote in message >...
> > > >I'm also starting an experiment in a small jug with ammonia sulphate
> > > >and bacterlife. I've recorded the ammonia at 2-3 mg/l and hope to see
> > > >if i get some nitrite. If I manage to cycle this 1 Litre in the next 5
> > > >days, I'll add it to the 30L Biorb and add some bacterlife and ammonia
> > > >to try and chemical cycle this.
>
(I decided to add
> > some ceramic media to the experimental jug, so that any bacterial
> > growth have somewhere to live, that I can transfer to the biorb)
>
> > I'm also collecting some filter squeezings from a friends tank to add
> > to the mix. Ill transfer to a 3 litre bucket when I add that.
>
> I've got the squeezings - so I'm going to add these now and dose with
> ammonia to the same level. I've put nearly all my biorb ceramic media
> in the test bowl with 2L of water and the test will continue.
> >

Hi,

The results of my chemical @kick statrt@ of a biorb - SUCCESS

I used 1-2L of tapwater suitably treated with stresscoat. I addded
half the ceramic media. I also over dosed it with LOTS of Bacterlife
and some filter squeezings from a friends tank. I then feed this with
ammonium sulphate solution until the ammonia reading was at 5ppm. I
kept dosing with bactelife and ammonium sulphate solution for a week.
Other important variables - use a washing up bowl, so you get a large
enough surface area to keep the solution oxygenated, and keep the bowl
warm (i had it on our cehtral heating boiler)

I rinsed out the ceramic media in tapwater (dechlorinated with
stresscoat) and loaded it into the biorb, then purchased 3 white cload
minnows.

Ten days later - the new tank is completely cycled.